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Murray's blatant negligence and malpractice -- something more to it?

lemon662

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I have a really, really hard time understanding how Murray could have been so careless and negligent on so many levels. It just doesn't make sense to me. One would think that the personal physician of such a high profile celebrity would be absolutely METICULOUS with respect to the standard of care provided, but he clearly dropped the ball. How could a cardiologist have been so negligent? It just doesn't make any sense to me. It also doesn't make sense that MJ passed away the night before he was supposed to start his big tour. A coincidence?

1. How could an experienced cardiologist fail to ensure that proper monitoring equipment was available while administering these meds, particularly Propofol (heart monitor, continuous blood pressure monitor, continuing pulse oximeter)? How come no proper IV pump?

2. How could he have taken such a risk to be administering such a potent med like Propofol in a home setting?

3. How could he have left the room when administering such a potent med and therefore not been properly monitoring MJ?

4. How could he have intentionally failed to advise paramedics and UCLA hospital staff that MJ had been given Propofol? How could a doctor intentionally withhold such info given the seriousness of the situation, information that perhaps (although I doubt it) could have impacted the treatment MJ was given in an attempt to save his life?

5. How could a cardiologist not know that CPR must be delivered with the patient on a hard, flat surface? How could he have not known that one must use 2 hands to give chest compressions?

6. Why didn't he contact 911 IMMEDIATELY when he noted that MJ had stopped breathing? How much time REALLY had elapsed? How long was MJ really dead for by the time 911 was called?

It's unfortunate that there is no way to prove how long MJ was gone by the time that paramedics arrived.

Was Murray on someone's payroll to HELP get rid of MJ?

I wish that Murray would have to testify and explain WHY he was so negligent and make him have to answer for his blatant negligence. I would think that MJ's family and loved ones would want to know this.

This man was reportedly paid $150,000 a MONTH to be MJs personal physician so you would THINK that he would have bent over backwards to ensure that safety and competent care was PARAMOUNT, if for no other reason than to ensure MJ stayed alive and he would continue to profit nicely.

How could a doctor have been so careless and stupid? It just doesn't make any sense to me. There has to be more to it that we don't know about. What do you think?
 
Why did murrary send for the childrens? to watch their father die. Why was murrary leaning over the Banister, wating for help? why did murrary look up prentening to do cpr and say i don't do this but he is my friend. Did the prosecutor say murrary was in the room with Michael when he recorded him? This is looking like a cold blooded Killer.
 
It just really disturbs me because as a cardiologist, or just a doctor in general, you KNOW what needs to be done...It's an automatic response...You don't behave in such a negligent way unless it's on purpose....I mean, one handed CPR on a bed? NO equipment to monitor his patient on a powerful anesthetic? Giving propofol out of the hospital setting, failing to call 911 right away ...and the list goes on and on...

I don't know what else to think....It's like there's no other way to think except this man did it on purpose...
 
Arklove said:
It just really disturbs me because as a cardiologist, or just a doctor in general, you KNOW what needs to be done...It's an automatic response...You don't behave in such a negligent way unless it's on purpose....I mean, one handed CPR on a bed? NO equipment to monitor his patient on a powerful anesthetic? Giving propofol out of the hospital setting, failing to call 911 right away ...and the list goes on and on...

I don't know what else to think....It's like there's no other way to think except this man did it on purpose...
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I know, that's how I feel, too. I just can't imagine a doctor simply being this stupid or careless. You'd think that if he was just a really stupid and incompetent cardiologist that he'd have a major history of all kinds of malpractice suits. I seriously wonder if at the end of the day, it was known that MJ simply wouldn't be able to do all of those 50 concerts (which would be a huge lawsuit against whomever it was that committed him to these concerts/this tour) and "someone" knew he might be worth more dead. I really can't help but think there isn't a lot more to this than just a grossly incompetent doctor who screwed up; and that MJ's demise was calculated and intentional. But will we ever find out the truth? His family surely deserves to know. Do they or others close to MJ feel this was intentional homicide, I wonder?

It just doesn't make any sense at all that a doctor would be so careless such that the only patient he was being paid an enormous amount of money to care for would not take all steps to ensure the health and well-being of his patient...........or risk his medical license (his livelihood).
 
1. Why did he call FIRST, someone who wasn't even on the property?

2. Why did he make a phone-call from the ambulance, instead of caring for his patient at that time? He was the doctor in charge!

3. Why did he use the cheapest pulse oxymeter available, when a device with an alarm, could have been rented at only forty dollars a month.

4. EMTs remarked that Michael was VERY thin. Did Murray not NOTICE this before?

5. It was said that there was tubing for oxygen going into Michael's nose. But, the oxygen tank was EMPTY?

6. On the report of items found in the room, it's listed that there were two packs of cigarettes ("American Spirit," to be exact). Had someone been SMOKING in a room with oxygen tanks? Really, REALLY bad idea!

7. Why had Murray been practicing cardiology, without being a board certified cardiologist?

8. Is it possible that Murray had something like an alcohol problem that made it impossible to make good decisions?

And more. The list of mistakes and questions is mind-boggling, really. . . .
 
I wanted to comment on the empty oxygen tank. I was thinking about this too, previously. It IS possible that MJ was receiving oxygen via the nasal cannula at the time the paramedics arrived and they removed it so that they could bag him (give ventilations) and that once they took him to the hospital that the oxygen tank was never turned off and it just eventually ran out of oxygen and therefore when the tank was checked later by investigators it was found to have been empty. That's possible to me.

I suspect that the reason he was talking on his cell in the ambulance and not doing anything to help MJ was because he knew that MJ had been dead for quite some time and well past the point where anything could have been done to resuscitate him. Plus to be honest (not that I'm defending him), paramedics really only have basic first-line medications in their Kit and they'd already been administering these so I don't think there really WAS anything else at that point that could have been given to him or done him in the ambulance.

Whose bedroom was MJ in? I've read that MJs bedroom was down the hall, that really wasn't his usual bedroom. I wonder if Murray was a smoker and those were his cigs and perhaps he would periodically leave the room to go for a cigarette?
 
lemon662 said:
I wanted to comment on the empty oxygen tank. I was thinking about this too, previously. It IS possible that MJ was receiving oxygen via the nasal cannula at the time the paramedics arrived and they removed it so that they could bag him (give ventilations) and that once they took him to the hospital that the oxygen tank was never turned off and it just eventually ran out of oxygen and therefore when the tank was checked later by investigators it was found to have been empty. That's possible to me.

I suspect that the reason he was talking on his cell in the ambulance and not doing anything to help MJ was because he knew that MJ had been dead for quite some time and well past the point where anything could have been done to resuscitate him. Plus to be honest (not that I'm defending him), paramedics really only have basic first-line medications in their Kit and they'd already been administering these so I don't think there really WAS anything else at that point that could have been given to him or done him in the ambulance.

Whose bedroom was MJ in? I've read that MJs bedroom was down the hall, that really wasn't his usual bedroom. I wonder if Murray was a smoker and those were his cigs and perhaps he would periodically leave the room to go for a cigarette?
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The first scenario seems possible, that no one turned off the oxygen.

For the second, sure, Murray knew Michael was beyond saving. Still seems inappropriate for him to make a call at that time.

And the third? Good point. Not sure, though, which bedroom that was. There have been conflicting stories about that, and I don't think it's come out in testimony. So, WAS Murray a smoker? And had to leave the room periodically? I wonder if there are any photos of him smoking?
 
Autumn II said:
The first scenario seems possible, that no one turned off the oxygen.

For the second, sure, Murray knew Michael was beyond saving. Still seems inappropriate for him to make a call at that time.

And the third? Good point. Not sure, though, which bedroom that was. There have been conflicting stories about that, and I don't think it's come out in testimony. So, WAS Murray a smoker? And had to leave the room periodically? I wonder if there are any photos of him smoking?
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Not sure if this has been verified of course but on pg 6 of the Autopsy Documents, it indicates that MJs bedroom was down the hall from the room he was found in: http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Celebs/jackson, michael_report.pdf

If you look at the room he was found in, to me it doesn't seem like a bedroom that MJ would have. Seems to me he would have a nicer room, with a bigger TV, more personalized decor, pictures of his kids on the wall, etc.

In looking at the Autopsy documents again, it shows that the investigators went to MJ's home at 19:10 and did an investigation of the residence. I wonder, was his home sealed off as a possible crime scene the minute he left for the hospital? Is there a chance that anyone could have entered that bedroom and removed or disrupted things?

I can't seem to find anything on Google to indicate if Murray was a smoker.

I will say this, though. When I read MJ's autopsy documents, particularly the examination of his lungs, it made me wonder if he was a smoker. Seemed to show a significant amount of chronic inflammation in his lungs which struck me as a bit unusual IF he was a non-smoker.
 
jbarrantes said:
CPR on a bed... incredible!! and think he told the security guy "this is my first time doing CPR".... :mad:
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You know, I'm surely NOT defending Murray in any way, shape or form but having worked in health care for over 2 decades, I can tell you that I wouldn't be surprised to hear a doctor has never performed CPR before. I say that because in any hospital/clinic settings I've worked in, it would have been a nurse who was performing CPR, not ever the doctor. It would make sense that it's not the doctor who would be performing it because the doctor has to be directing the resuscitation effort (interpreting the monitor, ordering various lab tests, directing the nurses as to what meds to give, perhaps on the phone consulting with other specialists, performing specialized procedures like inserting a central line, etc). Truth be told, most doctors wouldn't even familiar with starting an IV (it's a nurse who generally does this, or in the case of surgery it's often the anesthesiologist), giving medications, etc.
 
[QUOTEI don't know what else to think....It's like there's no other way to think except this man did it on purpose... QUOTE]

I feel the same way
 
I still can not believe he is really a doctor. :doh: How was he able to do a heart surgery of his patient and he did not die? :blink: The whole thing about Murray for me is very bizarre and surreal. :unsure:
 
Was Murray's mental health ever evaluated? I understand the implications of that and that a lot of people would see that as cop out for Murray, but there's a lot of inappropriate, illogical behavior that is completely at odds with the automatized response one trained in their profession would exhibit. This is supposedly someone who is familiar with an OR and the highly mechanical and automated response to medical issues. If he practiced, he would have had his fair share of medical emergencies even during surgery- this kind of headless chicken behavior is either someone who killed and knows he killed, or someone with some form of mental disturbance. Cream? Eating? Phone calls while riding with your dead patient?

Doesn't it strike you as mentally strange that you take the care to cath a patient- but have to remember to clip on a pulse oximeter after the fact??
He's McGuyver enough to cut open an IV bag and dump a vial into it- but can't figure out that he needs to call 911? I would have BUILT some impromptu intubation gear from Paris' bicycle tire and Kai Chase' creme brulee equipment and ventilated my patient- anybody who cuts into medical equipment like he did would show more initiative.
Something here is very off balance for 'involuntary manslaughter'.
This whole taping your patient, pulling an IV out of the leg when personal arrives- you are either a killer, or somehow not right mentally. None of this behavior is 'involuntary' ANYTHING.

And if you are a medical professional and thus have had other patients dying- you'd know better than to try and muddy the tracks in this way. You as physician would know better, this is not a layperson who witnessed a horrible accident, this is supposedly a trained physician with OR experience- what did he think the anesthesiologists were doing all the time????
 
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Pace said:
Was Murray's mental health ever evaluated? I understand the implications of that and that a lot of people would see that as cop out for Murray, but there's a lot of inappropriate, illogical behavior that is completely at odds with the automatized response one trained in their profession would exhibit. This is supposedly someone who is familiar with an OR and the highly mechanical and automated response to medical issues. If he practiced, he would have had his fair share of medical emergencies even during surgery- this kind of headless chicken behavior is either someone who killed and knows he killed, or someone with some form of mental disturbance. Cream? Eating? Phone calls while riding with your dead patient?

Doesn't it strike you as mentally strange that you take the care to cath a patient- but have to remember to clip on a pulse oximeter after the fact?? Something here is very off balance for 'involuntary manslaughter'.
This whole taping your patient, pulling an IV out of the leg when personal arrives- you are either a killer, or somehow not right mentally. None of this behavior is 'involuntary' ANYTHING.

And if you are a medical professional and thus have had other patients dying- you'd know better than to try and muddy the tracks in this way. You as physician would know better, this is not a layperson who witnessed a horrible accident, this is supposedly a trained physician with OR experience- what did he think the anesthesiologists were doing all the time????
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If he was evaluated as to his mental health, it's never been mentioned. I find his behavior SO strange, it's difficult to imagine that he EVER had a medical practice? In fact, it's SO strange, it almost seems like he walked in on a situation totally unprepared, and was left holding the proverbial bag? Rushing about in a total panic, making endless phone-calls, yelling from the top of the stairs, calling someone FIRST who wasn't even on the property, putting on pulse oxymeter when it was obvious that Michael was dead. Doing mouth-to-mouth, when an ambu bag was right THERE, and doing completely ineffective CPR, one handed, on a bed. . when even a twelve-year-old boy-scout would have done better. And, his early statements to police saying "none of the phone were working?" Anyone who's ever watched a cop show knows that phone records can be traced!

What IS going on here????
 
This is presumably someone who knows how to record someone on the sly...with an iPhone.
Also, ANYBODY who EVER worked in ANY capacity (even crunching numbers!) in a medical practice knows what importance if being placed on accurate medical file keeping, heck, most parents of infants are somewhat aware at what time they gave that Tylenol dose. Did he like playing with urine, making Michael think he depends on him, or something??? People that are meant to be out for a short 30 minute procedure don't necessarily get cathed- did he plan on keeping him under for 12 hours straight???? At home??????
I've seen some wild medical charts- and an file inspection is a practice' NIGHTMARE days ahead. Not keeping any record goes against your training, to the point of making you uncomfortable- and if we believe folklore he wouldn't have had to look for post-its around Michael to ADD to a chart- which is how many Doctors help themselves- write it down ANYWHERE and physically add it to the chart.
I just do not comprehend a single thing this guy did- if you have ever worked in a medical practice- his actions seem as plausible as someone from Mars who landed 2 hours ago on Earth.
 
You guys......and excuse my language.....something is definitely FUCKED up here ....I don't know what to think...
 
Arklove said:
You guys......and excuse my language.....something is definitely FUCKED up here ....I don't know what to think...
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I agree with you. Seeing this all put together here, something is terribly OFF. Just seriously, terribly OFF. I can see a doctor making one mistake, or two, but this is just over-the-top. And it's not ALL of it, either. His yelling at Kenny Ortega? Multiple versions of when he discovered Michael, all versions different? And on, and on. . .

He's a state-of-the-art robot? (not serious, of course, but. . . .) What IS going on here?
 
By the way, did you guy notice that conveniently Murray (who couldn't remember how to do CPR, or call 911, or you know, intubate and monitor a patient) suggested 2 things to the paramedics that could not take place?? Central line and magnesium. According to the Russell testimony Murray would also been knowledgeable on the state of cardiac arrest/heart problem patients being admitted to the ER. By the way, when you check Magnesium you'll find tons of information for magnesium being rather useless and without any effect in cardiac arrest cases. This is not considered new knowledge in the medical community- it's all over the place with studies dating back to 1997. Continous ed is apparently not a forte either.

Oh, the biggest thing- how come certain benzos are being listed as general anesthesia introductory medication? I am sure the prosecution is gonna deal with Murray's bizarre timeline of Propofol administration. Apparently it is quite common to start anesthesia preparations with Midazolam in an environment where the patient is receiving intubation- and I bet Murray was well aware of that. Benzos to sleep my a**- he was using these benzos purposefully in connection with Propofol which makes this even more fu**ed up.
 
Autumn II said:
I agree with you. Seeing this all put together here, something is terribly OFF. Just seriously, terribly OFF. I can see a doctor making one mistake, or two, but this is just over-the-top. And it's not ALL of it, either. His yelling at Kenny Ortega? Multiple versions of when he discovered Michael, all versions different? And on, and on. . .

He's a state-of-the-art robot? (not serious, of course, but. . . .) What IS going on here?
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The 'mistakes' that Murray made are just too much....Even just one 'mistake' in the whole situation (kind of a tame word to describe it lol), isn't a forgivable one...giving propofol outside of the hospital setting, no equipment, delay in calling 911, improper CPR....when your adrenaline is pumping, you GO like a crazy maniac on that chest....Murray doing it with one hand? Where was his adrenaline? Seems too calm of an action...CPR can be chaotic, but when you're a health professional, you assume that role as naturally as breathing...You just DO it...

It'll be interesting to see how this trial unfolds....
 
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This is what has been bothering me for the past two years. I'm a fence sitter when it comes to the conspiracy angle, but there's way too many question marks here. Murray's behavior completely mystifies me. I agree that it's too many mistakes. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever hear the truth and sadly it wouldn't change anything. :(
 
CaptainEoLove85 said:
This is what has been bothering me for the past two years. I'm a fence sitter when it comes to the conspiracy angle, but there's way too many question marks here. Murray's behavior completely mystifies me. I agree that it's too many mistakes. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever hear the truth and sadly it wouldn't change anything. :(
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I think that's part of the tragedy of this, that we probably will never hear the truth. Even if Murray does take the stand (doubtful), he's lied so much, who would believe the truth if he spoke it? I DO think he's a sociopath! I mean, what kind of person has that many children with that many different women? Just that, is extremely peculiar?
 
Ashtanga said:
I still can not believe he is really a doctor. :doh: How was he able to do a heart surgery of his patient and he did not die? :blink: The whole thing about Murray for me is very bizarre and surreal. :unsure:
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Same here! I've had this question in my head for the past 2 years and 3 months! So many questions and not enough answers :(
 
I think a lot of his blatant negligence is owed to his blatant arrogance and self interest, especially that night.

Murray is very high on himself. He told Ortega to basically mind his own business because he was the doctor. He had been administering MJ treatments for weeks without what HE considered serious incident, and just got fuller of himself and over the top sloppy. He had just signed the contract for $150,000 a month, meaning $1.8 million for the year, more than he had ever made in his life, certainly more than he had ever made in one year, plus he was going to get housing accommodations, and this was all for one person, the legendary Michael Jackson. Murray himself was impressed with MJ and now he had sealed the deal of a lifetime to be a part of his world.

IMO, he was preoccupied with thoughts of his great coup that night and day, feeling celebratory, and was calling folks, hitting on a new possible female conquest, and generally so self involved, he completely took his patient's care for granted and didn't give him proper consideration or anything else.
 
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I agree with most what has been said in this thread, I always found it hard to believe that a doctor would act the way he did. Propofol and not monitoring alone is a very strange thing to do, also Propofol for insomnia, can't imagine what kind of doctor would do this. And then the long series of mistakes he made that day, I can't explain that. Although I'm sure what gerryevans said was part of it all. The entire situation is disturbing.
 
I too don't understand how a doctor can be so incompetent. Some of he behaviors are very, very odd to me...
He had time to say craps like "I'm doing this because he's my friend" before doing mouth to mouth resuscitation.Seriously he thought he was in a movie? Just do it already and cut the crap. Also,The way he did CPR was absurd.Even I know doing CPR needs two hands and I learn it from TV. It's just hard to believe a doctor doesn't know such basic thing. And WTF means dialing 911"would be to neglect him"? If he didn't want to do it, there were other people in the house. Why he had to call someone outside the house to do it? The whole thing smells fishy.
 
X_AGNES_X said:
And WTF means dialing 911"would be to neglect him"? If he didn't want to do it, there were other people in the house. Why he had to call someone outside the house to do it? The whole thing smells fishy.
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Especially since he had time to run out of the room to call for Prince or security. Why not call 911 right away instead?
 
One thing I don't understand is WHY, given that he apparently had so little knowledge of the practice of medicine, he didn't have a trail of BODIES from prior mistakes with patients? What he was doing really could have only one outcome, which is eventually what happened. . . . that his mistakes would be compounded and would build up, the longer he engaged in such a dangerous practice as giving a general anesthesia in someone's home, without rescue equipment and apparently not even a basic knowledge of what could go wrong, and how to prevent or treat it?
 
Its those questions that make me wonder why he was only charged with manslaughter..........


To me, it seems like second degree murder..........if only I could find a motive!
 
X_AGNES_X said:
I too don't understand how a doctor can be so incompetent. Some of he behaviors are very, very odd to me...
He had time to say craps like "I'm doing this because he's my friend" before doing mouth to mouth resuscitation.Seriously he thought he was in a movie? Just do it already and cut the crap. Also,The way he did CPR was absurd.Even I know doing CPR needs two hands and I learn it from TV. It's just hard to believe a doctor doesn't know such basic thing. And WTF means dialing 911"would be to neglect him"? If he didn't want to do it, there were other people in the house. Why he had to call someone outside the house to do it? The whole thing smells fishy.
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I thought it was odd for Murray to say this, and also didn't he say something at the hospital like " I really wanted him to make it". It's almost like he made a point to say those things so they would be mentioned and it would seem like he cared. Who thinks about that kind of stuff in the middle of a tragic event... you're giving CPR to someone who's not breathing and you are going to stop and say "I have to do this because he is my friend" I don't think so...
 
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