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Murray's blatant negligence and malpractice -- something more to it?

jilliebean said:
you're giving CPR to someone who's not breathing and you are going to stop and say "I have to do this because he is my friend" I don't think so...
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Also ... does this mean he wouldn't have done it for a stranger to try and save a life? Or one of his patients, if they weren't his "friends"?
 
Krshna28 said:
Its those questions that make me wonder why he was only charged with manslaughter..........


To me, it seems like second degree murder..........if only I could find a motive!
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You don't need a motive for 2nd degree murder. I forget the legal definition, but it's an unpremeditated act which is so reckless it endangers someone's life. Acc to Tmez the LA DA's office were back and forth about whether to charge 2nd deg murder or invol manslaughter. I'm quite happy leaving it to the experts as to the best charges to file, i think its incredibly rare to get a murder conviction against a doctor.

The only thing i would think about in filing a murder charge is if it could have forced murray into a plea bargain down to invol manslaughter and so avoid this trial - i don't have any us legal knowledge so don't know if that would have been a possiblitliy.
 
Yeah that would have been poss. and also charge with murder but give the jury the option of man
 
I think Michael was in danger since Murray began to give medicine for his insomnia.
Why didn´t Michael go to the rehearsals in the beginning of june?
Could it be he felt sick after Murrays treatment?
Someone here recognised the symthoms Michael had when he was sick as symthoms you get as a side effect from Lorazepam.
Why did Michael get so skinny?
I think Murray experimented with the drugs he gave to Michael for a long time.
 
Bonnie Blue said:
You don't need a motive for 2nd degree murder. I forget the legal definition, but it's an unpremeditated act which is so reckless it endangers someone's life. Acc to Tmez the LA DA's office were back and forth about whether to charge 2nd deg murder or invol manslaughter. I'm quite happy leaving it to the experts as to the best charges to file, i think its incredibly rare to get a murder conviction against a doctor.

The only thing i would think about in filing a murder charge is if it could have forced murray into a plea bargain down to invol manslaughter and so avoid this trial - i don't have any us legal knowledge so don't know if that would have been a possiblitliy.
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Yes, that could have opened the door to a plea-bargain and potentially could have spared Michael's family, children, fans, and the state of California unnecessary pain (and expense). The argument I've heard most often FOR the I.M. charge is that "he could have walked if given Murder 2." That is NOT likely, actually, because it's quite common for juries to be given instructions about LOWER charges they could convict on if they think the burden of proof has not been met for the higher charge. In other words, they decide the verdict, and also can decide from an array of charges. . . if those charges are lower. But not if the charges are HIGHER.

"Motive" doesn't have to be proven for Murder 2. A drunk driver, for example, could be charged with Murder 2 if the damage caused was severe. That would carry with it a jail sentence, where I.M. may NOT, i.e. probation is an option with I.M. Given the overcrowding in the prisons in California, even if Murray is sentenced to jail time, he could get probation, or months in jail.. . not years.
 
I think I heard an expert the other night say that in the state of California that you don't need intent either for Murder 2, so I'm not sure why they didn't charge Murder 2, but I guess they thought they had a better chance of winning with this charge. It's sad though...
 
I think they charged murder in the casey anthony case with a lesser charge of m/slaughte available and she wan't convicted of anything. I read some commentators who felt the prosecutors had over-charged and over-played their hand and they were criticised for it. the fact it is MJ who is the victim makes this case unique and hard to predict and i can understand the DA being anxious to get a conviction and deciding to being cautious.
 
I just saw an interview with Marc Geragos (HLN), where he said he thought Murray was "undercharged" and it should have been Murder 2. With Murder 2, Murray could have had life in prison. Geragos said that with I.M., it's unlikely Murray would get more than two years, or he could get probation entirely. IMHO, this was a massive mistake by the D.A., Cooley, who was running for re-election (he lost .)
 
So here is a question for you guys, if there really was something more to it, if Murray did this on purpose, why? Why do you think he did it? That seems to be the big hang up for people I talk to. They look at it like it can't be on purpose because it would be very beneficial for Murray if Michael was alive. I guess there is probably a conspiracy thread, but does everyone who thinks it was intentional think that it was a big conspiracy or are there other ideas as to why Murray could have wanted Michael dead?
 
Now that Murray's original statement to the cops is out... I see HUGE red flags. HUGE.

If AEG would have 'pulled the plug' due to Michael's perceived non-performance- Murray's life would have been in absolute shambles- at least it could have looked that way to Murray. No tour, no England, no payment, no nothing. After closing down his supposed practice and buying gallons of poison, hanging with him 6 nights a week- it doesn't take me much phantasy to imagine that Murray's receptors might have fried/shortened out at the sight of patient who supposedly (I have a hard word believing a single statement in that police report) said to cancel rehearsal etc.

Murray wouldn't have been the first person to snap. That kind of personal 'care' and financial dependency is an emotional minefield.

Obviously my thoughts leave larger conspiracies out, but it is not difficult for me to imagine this. Delaying the 911 call looks like an awful, sick payback of the passive-aggressive kind that resulted in death. Just in my honest opinion. Something's not right here, something's off, totally off.
 
jilliebean said:
So here is a question for you guys, if there really was something more to it, if Murray did this on purpose, why? Why do you think he did it? That seems to be the big hang up for people I talk to. They look at it like it can't be on purpose because it would be very beneficial for Murray if Michael was alive. I guess there is probably a conspiracy thread, but does everyone who thinks it was intentional think that it was a big conspiracy or are there other ideas as to why Murray could have wanted Michael dead?
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Yes, there is a "conspiracy forum." But, here is a non-conspiracy idea, ok? Now, we've heard Murray's taped interview, and there is a transcript. One thing in particular caught my attention (in addition to all the obvious lies). Murray SAID that Michael was saying he would have to cancel the tour if he didn't get some sleep. Not cancel the next day's rehearsal, but the TOUR. That matches Kenny Ortega's email, where canceling seemed to be a real possibility. And then? Murray's income would go away.

I don't presume to know WHAT happened that night/morning, so this is only speculation. We know that Murray lies, and maybe. . . maybe Michael told him he WAS canceling, and Murray snapped and flew into a rage? And killed Michael!

I'm not saying this is what happened, because we really don't know (and probably never will know.) Just that it MIGHT be possible. . . . ?
 
Oh, I see that I'm not the only person who immediately thought along those lines. Murray's cop interview sounds like a giant red flag of abuse by caretaker that resulted in death- which is something that unfortunately happens a lot. Hard to tell since it's hard to believe Murray with a single word he says- but if there is ANY truth that Michael might have said something along the lines "this is too much for one person, too much on you"- if there is ANY truth to that- it sends shivers down my spine. Just the whole 6 nights a week and one day off is enough to send people into an altered state of mind- just that schedule alone.

Murray states that he started to perform CPR despite a faint pulse in the femoral- now, who does that? If that is a correct statement it has gigantic implications for Murray- although I suspect it's just a lie to cover up the fact that his patient was dead. if it's true that he (as a Cardiologist!!) starts CPR on someone with a pulse (he didn't have an EKG to tell him what exactly was going on)- then that's a huge, incriminating statement. In either case he's incriminating himself more and more. And why is a right handed person (he's doodled enough in court to come to that conclusion) administering CPR with the left hand? Unless you're a rare ambidexter, your left hand will be totally insufficient. You'd be using your weaker hand to dial the phone and your stronger hand to do compressions.

Big red flag.

Also: He's stating to "love" Michael. Why would a person that states to 'love' someone be seeking to degrade the person that has JUST died- the stories of Lee's firing due to a sick child (!!!), the stories of the bodyguards having to use a bathroom at a gas station= calling that inhumane- all this serves as some 'justification' to put down the deceased- toward whom you felt 'love'? Yeah, right.
Medical personnel that lost a patient has normally no need to put down the patient they just lost- especially not that blatantly toward the cops! That's like a text book type justification exercise for killing someone, "minimizing" the loss.
 
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Pace said:
Delaying the 911 call looks like an awful, sick payback of the passive-aggressive kind that resulted in death. Just in my honest opinion. Something's not right here, something's off, totally off.
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I see that we posted about the same thing, at the same time (above). Agree about Murray's dissing his dead patient (Cherlyn Lee story). We heard from Lee (interviews) and she said nothing remotely LIKE that (fired because of a sick child).

Yeah, something's very, VERY off. . .
 
Thanks for replying because I have felt since the beginning that Michael's death was on purpose, but I couldn't really figure out what the motive would be, and a conspiracy, although I do believe anything is possible, was just not adding up for me. When you have a large number of people in on something it's more likely to be found... someone will slip up.

I never thought about him snapping if he thought Michael was going to cancel the tour, but that actually makes a lot of sense. If he already planned on the money and made decisions based on the fact that he would make a lot of money and he could solve all of his financial problems, plus he works for none other than Michael Jackson so that would open up a whole world of possibilities for him... I think you guys might be on to something here, because you are right something is way off, pieces should be falling into place if there was any truth being told and they are not. I wonder if maybe he tried to get Michael to sign the contract and Michael refused. You know this also makes sense as to why Murray was so aggressive with Kenny Ortega he probably was concerned that Michael was not the only one who could pull the plug on the concerts.
 
I'm also remembering the bit about Adams and now Murray's obvious concern about 'sharing' etc, a second Doctor. If he was already 'sensitized' in that area, Ortega's valid concern for Michael would pretty much be interpreted by Murray- to stop acting as if he was the Doctor. Yikes. Just speculating.

All these emotional reactions and 'strange' sounding reactions for a supposed medical professional sound really logical though for very base human reactions of hurt, territorial thinking, 'my world's crumbling before my eyes' type situations.

And I think most of us have encountered someone here and there who might not have been as "gentle" with us as they could have been when laying an IV etc.

Think of shaken baby syndrome- baby up all night, crying his head off and the parent does all they can- but baby just goes on and on and on. (I'm not comparing Michael to a screaming baby...just trying to illustrate that people snap in situations without millions of paycheck being involved) 6 nights a week shifts will certainly bring you to a strange mindset.

One doesn't even have to literally 'snap'- calling 911 way too late- even without 'snapping' the end result could be a dead patient.
 
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I've always wondered why, if murray had been treating Michael for 6 weeks as he said he was, why on that particular day did it all fall apart? Did he just get unlucky? DID he perhaps snap for some reason we will never know?

Did anyone know that at one time he was apparently licensed in Hawaii?

GENERAL LICENSEE
LIC ID: MD-11618 Active/Inactive:
NAME: CONRAD R MURRAY
TRADE NAME:
STATUS: FORFEITED/MAINTENANCE REQUIREMENT DUE
ENTITY: INDIVIDUAL BUSINESS CODE:
ORIG LIC DATE: 07/02/2001 EXPIRE DATE: 01/31/2010
CLASS PREFIX: SPECIAL PRIVILEGE:
RESTRICTION: EDUCATION CODE:
CONDITIONS AND LIMITATIONS:
BUSINESS ADDR:
MAILING ADDR:

Also found this :
Falsifying license renewal form (12/06/10)
Action Taken: Reprimand
Issued To: Dr. Conrad Robert Murray; License # 9141
Nature of Complaint:
The physician renewed his license to practice medicine in the State of Nevada by providing inaccurate or incomplete statements on his 2007 and 2009 applications for licensure renewal.
Action Taken-Consent Agreement
The physician has been issued a Reprimand by the Nevada State Board of Medical Examiners. The physician shall also reimburse the board the reasonable costs and expenses incurred in the investigation and prosecution of this case in the current amount of $3,766.20 plus any additonal costs that may be subsequently accrued.
State: Nevada
Issued By: State of Nevada

So he was licensed in 4 states at one time, falsified data twice for Nevada and forfeited his Hawaii license...He also let his Board Certification lapse...
Now being board certified is certainly not a requirement to practice medicine but it having obtained it why on earth would he not work to maintain it?
There is definitely something not right with this man. Too bad the police couildn't have done a drug screen on him.
 
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