Murray Trial - October 13 - Day 12 - Discussion

I was going to ask today who was the man that Chernoff keeps talking to seated behind him, now I know it's Dr White, he's been there for a couple of days at least.
Also Murray taking notes from the screen from leaflet thats enclosed in Propofol, how to use ect, " he should have read that two years ago."
 
Thank you for the explanantions. I don't like how Klein's name gets brought up all the time.
 
The barrister on sky news is speculating that Murray will cop a plea deal.
 
Don't you think that even without medical records he should have known about demerol? Look to his statement 3 weeks ago he hears Michael calling Klein's office saying that he had to see Klein. and Michael's production team saying to Murray Michael's worst days are after he saw Klein and he's wasted for 24 hours.

any legit doctor even though didn't know Demerol would have stopped medication and ask what made that person so wasted

Absolutely, I think Murray knew about the demerol. He went ahead with the lorazepam and propofol ANYWAY. IMHO. (The defense will probably say Michael was doing this "behind Murray's back." I can't imagine that Murray didn't know, though. Oh, and as for the "going through withdrawal" possible line of defense? Three visits a week to Klein would not be enough to produce addiction, and even if they were, Murray should have known about "withdrawal," too. Demerol withdrawal is rough, and symptoms would have been obvious. If there was some sort of daily recording of Michael's health, that would have been known, too.)
 
Last edited:
I was going to ask today who was the man that Chernoff keeps talking to seated behind him, now I know it's Dr White, he's been there for a couple of days at least.
Also Murray taking notes from the screen from leaflet thats enclosed in Propofol, how to use ect, " he should have read that two years ago."
I was wondering if that was who he was. Very animated today and Walgren even had to ask him to sit down.
 
Shouldnt be allowed to be in the court room as he can build his testimony around the pros witnesses imo
 
he did but he also said such reason could be corrected by melatonin tablets I believe. could Michael's insomnia be that easily treated?

yeah, my point was the doctor knew or I assume should have known based on the autospy report that MJ had vitiligo and he could have pointed out the lack of sunlight for someone suffering from vitiligo could be a reason you know huminize the victim instead of you know talking about psychiatric issues then at somepoint he said " obviously we had someone who had substance abuse problem" demerol ! not expecting him nor the prosecutors to be biased but come on at least try to understand the guy , give him the benefit of the doubt!!

Re demerol ,The jurors have been hearing about Klein since day one, and let's admit it the over all impression from all the questions even the prosecutors' phrasing MJ was receiving something he should not have been recieving and he was doing something 'wrong' at Klein's office . That's a problem , to me at least why if you could as a prosecutor enlighten the jury about such a thing especially now when the victim supposedly took not only propofol but the two drugs that killed him , why would not I try to refute the defense claims? why always agree with them ? why r they taking Murray's word as facts eventhough they had the records to refute such claims ?
 
Just had an expert on Sky saying the Defense may come back with a plea bargain, can they do that now?

The barrister on sky news is speculating that Murray will cop a plea deal.

he might want to cop a plea but it doesn't mean the prosecution is going to give him one. you can't just go and say "I'll plea". Prosecution has to be willing for that as well.

Shouldnt be allowed to be in the court room as he can build his testimony around the pros witnesses imo

this is mentioned on twitter today he's allowed as he's an expert witness. witnesses also testify based on their reports / statements so testimony isn't surprise. white already had the written report of what Shaffer would say. Plus testimony is televised. He could have watched it even though he wasn't allowed in the court room.

Re demerol ,The jurors have been hearing about Klein since day one, and let's admit it the over all impression from all the questions even the prosecutors' phrasing MJ was receiving something he should not have been recieving and he was doing something 'wrong' at Klein's office . That's a problem , to me at least why if you could as a prosecutor enlighten the jury about such a thing especially now when the victim supposedly took not only propofol but the two drugs that killed him , why would not I try to refute the defense claims? why always agree with them ? why r they taking Murray's word as facts eventhough they had the records to refute such claims ?

after defense's turn, prosecution would have the chance to bring rebuttal witnesses. My take is that they do not plan to introduce (or confuse) jurors with demerol talk. If that becomes a main point in defense turn, they can bring a rebuttal witness to debunk it.

edited:
Rebuttal stage and the addiction expert

yep exactly.

second edit:

I still expect Detective Martinez and even perhaps Ed Winters to be possible rebuttal witnesses.
 
Rebuttal stage and the addiction expert

Exactly. That testimony will come. Point about the demerol is, though, Murray had a responsibility to know ALL medications Michael was taking. As witnesses said, if he did not now, then his responsibility was to find out, before doing any treatments or procedures. The trial is about MURRAY, and whether or not Michael was addicted to demerol has nothing to do with Murray's failures in "standard of care." . . as the two expert witnesses so eloquently pointed out. If the defense goes that route, it will be "blame the victim," and that is not likely to go over very well with the jury. .
 
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Just a reminder that in the rebuttal phase, prosecution could call additional witnesses. So may see others come before closing arguments.
7 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
So far, prosecution has called 34 witnesses in 12 days of testimony. Which one did you like better and why? #conradmurraytrial
12 minutes ago

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
The estimate still remains that trial will be over by Oct. 28 and the jury will begin deliberation at that point. #conradmurraytrial
14 minutes ago

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Exclusive tidbits: after prosecution rests, defense takes case (which should happen Tuesday) then it goes back to prosecution for rebuttal.
17 minutes ago

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Exclusive tidbits: judge asked defense attorney Ed Chernoff if he thinks he will be done with his case next week. He said he thinks so.
19 minutes ago

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Exclusive tidbits: Ed Chernoff said he's 2 expert witnesses at this time: Dr. Paul White and Dr. Michael Hanson. More experts only if needed
27 minutes ago

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Exclusive tidbits: defense attorney Ed Chernoff told judge and prosecutor that he has 22 witnesses lined up but probably won't call all.
39 minutes ago

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Exclusive tidbits: Dr. Shafer's father is not doing well, but he has not asked for any special accommodation in scheduling yet.
40 minutes ago

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Exclusive tidbits: prosecutor Walgren told judge and defense Dr. Shafer will indeed be his last witness. He'll take probably all day Monday.
 
I didn't know there was a rebuttal phase. I really don't think I can watch the defense turn next week.
 
Thanks ivy. so the defence case will be lucky to last 5 days off 22 witnesses at the most. that says alot any info on hanson
 
Thanks ivy. so the defence case will be lucky to last 5 days off 22 witnesses at the most. that says alot any info on hanson

yes it does.. and half of those witnesses will probably be combative witnesses. I wonder if Chernoff still plans on calling Adams and Cherilyn Lee.
 
Judge Pastor constantly tweets about Michael and to Chernoff and Flanagan is he allowed to do that? Or can he do whatever cuz he's the judge?
 
A very good lawyer on Sky News who has been following the trial every day, said that a plea bargain may be on the way. That may be why they stopped early today without any cross examination and why there is no hearing tomorrow. The "scheduling" issue may well be because talks are going on. Murray's defence is falling apart and he has already changed his defence with regards to the theory that Michael drank the propofol. I think this may be over sooner than we think.
 
I'm sure I saw a moment of pure fear cross CM's face just after the pros and defence went up for that last sidebar.....I think he's worried about Shafer.

It will be interesting to see how White supports the defence, since Shafer and White have been such close colleagues, and worked on the first 'propofol dosing' paper together.

How could this be though? Shafer on the stand now and White is in the court room and are leaving town to attend a conference in Chicago?
Can Dr. White still be a witness?
 
I don't think they're going for a plea first of all, the prosecution should be willing to offer one, second of all I don't think Walgreen is that dumb, if a plea is offered Murray most probably won't have to do any time, I don't see such a thing happening. Let Murray dig his own grave.
 
I didn't know there was a rebuttal phase. I really don't think I can watch the defense turn next week.

rebuttal is a limited testimony stage where they can rebut what the defense argues. such as if defense claims Michael was addicted to demerol, they can bring a witness to rebut that (and only that).

Judge Pastor constantly tweets about Michael and to Chernoff and Flanagan is he allowed to do that? Or can he do whatever cuz he's the judge?

I'm pretty sure all of those accounts are parody / joke accounts being run by MJ fans.

A very good lawyer on Sky News who has been following the trial every day, said that a plea bargain may be on the way. That may be why they stopped early today without any cross examination and why there is no hearing tomorrow. The "scheduling" issue may well be because talks are going on. Murray's defence is falling apart and he has already changed his defence with regards to the theory that Michael drank the propofol. I think this may be over sooner than we think.

ABC reports that both Shafer and White will be at a conference on Friday and Shafer is getting an award. so scheduling issue really seems to be a scheduling issue.
 
yeah, my point was the doctor knew or I assume should have known based on the autospy report that MJ had vitiligo and he could have pointed out the lack of sunlight for someone suffering from vitiligo could be a reason you know huminize the victim instead of you know talking about psychiatric issues then at somepoint he said " obviously we had someone who had substance abuse problem" demerol ! not expecting him nor the prosecutors to be biased but come on at least try to understand the guy , give him the benefit of the doubt!!

Re demerol ,The jurors have been hearing about Klein since day one, and let's admit it the over all impression from all the questions even the prosecutors' phrasing MJ was receiving something he should not have been recieving and he was doing something 'wrong' at Klein's office . That's a problem , to me at least why if you could as a prosecutor enlighten the jury about such a thing especially now when the victim supposedly took not only propofol but the two drugs that killed him , why would not I try to refute the defense claims? why always agree with them ? why r they taking Murray's word as facts eventhough they had the records to refute such claims ?

Mj had a procdure, he received Botox injections. I don't see a problem with that.
 
yes it does.. and half of those witnesses will probably be combative witnesses. I wonder if Chernoff still plans on calling Adams and Cherilyn Lee.

Why would they? They were mentioned in his interview as part of the defense damage control strategy, he anticipated Adams and Lee might have had very damaging information about him so he attacked them to taint their credibility. The jurors heard from Murray his version which paints MJ as a junkie riddled with injection marks , receiving propofol from everyone , stories the prosecutors spent zero minute refuting . If I were Chernoff I would have been very happy and would not risk calling them to the stand, offer them the plateform to refute my claims , why would he?!! He got WAY more than he intially wanted !!!!


Mj had a procdure, he received Botox injections. I don't see a problem with that.

of course there is no problem with that, but how the jurors would know if no one tells them ? you have to tell them he was there to receive treatment , everything he was getting was medically justified instead of innuendos from both the defense and prosecutors , the phrasing of words and questions always give the impression he was doing something wrong " even if he was getting that without the doctor knowlegde " I mean at least educate the jurors on what the guy was taking , why he was taking it !!!!
 
Last edited:
The jury is not stupid. The issue is was the standard of care met. It does not matter if Klein's treatment mas making Michael's insomnia worse why didn't his doctor pick up on it? And when he was sick why did his doctor not take charge and find out what was wrong? Instead he got huffy and told a concerned person to mind his business
 
Mj had a procdure, he received Botox injections. I don't see a problem with that.

I agree. What it was Michael was doing at Klines office has NOTHING to do with Murray's lack of care for his patient on June 25th, Has nothing do with why MJ died. IT is the defense that is trying to paint Michael as an addict, If the judge thought that Michael's visits to kiline was of importance in this case...he would of had HIM there to testify,,,NOT JUST his medical records that HE had on MJ, Also...Kline himself would of been brought up on charges. So why people think that Kline is relevant to this case is beyond me. NONE of it has anything to do with Murray and HIS lack of standard of care that he gave to Michael on June 25th, Klines records will speak for themselves when the jurors see that Michael WAS NOT getting enough demeral from Kline to turn him into an addict, The stuff was used for enhancement procedures only.,
 
I don't think they're going for a plea first of all, the prosecution should be willing to offer one, second of all I don't think Walgreen is that dumb, if a plea is offered Murray most probably won't have to do any time, I don't see such a thing happening. Let Murray dig his own grave.

I agree ,,no way Walgren will let Murray plea bargain,,, as it is Murray only stands to get 4 years and lose his license....I dont think that the pros will let him get off with anything less. imo
 
Murray better not be getting a plea bargain! that is not justice in my eyes
 
How could this be though? Shafer on the stand now and White is in the court room and are leaving town to attend a conference in Chicago?
Can Dr. White still be a witness?

Personally, I think Dr. White can still be a witness. Maybe the defense will have to ask him questions away from the jury in the judge's chambers to see whether or not he's changed his mind about the case. I don't know. I'm just guessing.
 
Back
Top