Murray Trial - October 13 - Day 12 - Discussion

The jury is not stupid. The issue is was the standard of care met. It does not matter if Klein's treatment mas making Michael's insomnia worse why didn't his doctor pick up on it? And when he was sick why did his doctor not take charge and find out what was wrong? Instead he got huffy and told a concerned person to mind his business

Of COURSE. What Chernoff has left now, basically, is "attack the victim." Won't make a bit of difference whether Murray was treating Mother Theresa, or Attila the Hun. Everything else is a side-issue to STANDARD OF CARE which should be uniformly applied to all people, and which was egregiously deficient in Murray's treatment of Michael.

I wouldn't be too sure that there will NOT be a plea bargain? Or maybe he'll just plead guilty and be done with it? I do think that's a possibility, given the devastation of the medical experts to the defense in the last couple of days.
 
Re demerol ,The jurors have been hearing about Klein since day one, and let's admit it the over all impression from all the questions even the prosecutors' phrasing MJ was receiving something he should not have been recieving and he was doing something 'wrong' at Klein's office . That's a problem , to me at least why if you could as a prosecutor enlighten the jury about such a thing especially now when the victim supposedly took not only propofol but the two drugs that killed him , why would not I try to refute the defense claims? why always agree with them ? why r they taking Murray's word as facts eventhough they had the records to refute such claims ?

I understand what you are saying here^^. The jury might think that Michael was taking demoral and that was a contributing factor. However, since the case is about neglect and that neglect was shown very effectively, this demoral issue should not influence a not guilty verdict. The defense cannot account for the lack of standard of care, not calling 911, giving medications without knowing the effects or monitoring for the effects.

What I see happening, though, is that if the prosecution does not sum up that demorol was only given 3 times a week, that there was no evidence of demoral abuse, the average person and media will keep thinking Michael was abusing drugs at Kliens.
 
I wouldn't be too sure that there will NOT be a plea bargain? Or maybe he'll just plead guilty and be done with it? I do think that's a possibility, given the devastation of the medical experts to the defense in the last couple of days.


Personally, I don't think there will be a plea deal. I think that Murray will never go for it because he still somehow wants to be seen as having done nothing wrong even with all the medical evidence that's against him. If he was ever going to plead guilty, he would have done that last year. If he does suddenly try to get a plea deal, I will be surprised. This is all just my opinion.
 
Two great days in a row for the prosecution. Can't see Murray copping a plea, he's too arrogant and convinced he did no wrong. I want to see the whole trial played out to the bitter end with a conviction.
 
I think Murray might be delusional - and may have even led his attorneys to believe he was not at fault. I'm curious to see how well they try to defend him with all this pretty straightforward incriminating testimony. Unbelievable that the greatest entertainer in all time died at the hands of this idiot of a doctor. So very sad...
 
Why would they? They were mentioned in his interview as part of the defense damage control strategy, he anticipated Adams and Lee might have had very damaging information about him so he attacked them to taint their credibility. The jurors heard from Murray his version which paints MJ as a junkie riddled with injection marks , receiving propofol from everyone , stories the prosecutors spent zero minute refuting . If I were Chernoff I would have been very happy and would not risk calling them to the stand, offer them the plateform to refute my claims , why would he?!! He got WAY more than he intially wanted !!!!of course there is no problem with that, but how the jurors would know if no one tells them ? you have to tell them he was there to receive treatment , everything he was getting was medically justified instead of innuendos from both the defense and prosecutors , the phrasing of words and questions always give the impression he was doing something wrong " even if he was getting that without the doctor knowlegde " I mean at least educate the jurors on what the guy was taking , why he was taking it !!!!
the medical records are there for the jury to read. but unless the pros put klien on the stand how do the pros bring up what mj was been treated fir until the rebutal stage with an addition expert who can go through the report
 
Anyway i think we can all see what the defence will be.. murray gave 25mg and mj slept on after the dip wore off. he watches for abit and leaves the room. (seems they are now gonna say he left the room for longer which impeaches murrays police
statement) he leaves the room to make phonecalls and comes back to find mj.

i guess thats their defence for him not watching his paitent as the dip had already
worn off. and they will also say murray was using the diprivan for light/conscience sedation and that requires less monitoring.seeing as flanagan keeps going on about light sedation instead of deep
 
Last edited:
Anyway i think we can all see what the defence will be.. murray gave 25mg and mj slept on after the dip wore off. he watches for abit and leaves the room. (seems they are now gonna say he left the room for longer which impeaches murrays police
statement) he leaves the room to make phonecalls and comes back to find mj.

i guess thats their defence for him not
waching his paitent ad the dip had already
worn off.

Seems plausible they could come up with this. Problem for them is that Murray left Michael 'sleeping' and didn't attempt to wake him (thus proving he had recovered from the dose of Propofol) so he probably left him when he was already dying. Just hope the jury are following all of the prosecution expert witnesses. x
 
Maybe off topic somehow, but Michael tried with melatonin tablets many times. I've even asked him how they work since I was traveling between timezones a lot at one point. He said they may work for flight attendents but for him they were useless.
 
I agree. What it was Michael was doing at Klines office has NOTHING to do with Murray's lack of care for his patient on June 25th, Has nothing do with why MJ died. IT is the defense that is trying to paint Michael as an addict, If the judge thought that Michael's visits to kiline was of importance in this case...he would of had HIM there to testify,,,NOT JUST his medical records that HE had on MJ, Also...Kline himself would of been brought up on charges. So why people think that Kline is relevant to this case is beyond me. NONE of it has anything to do with Murray and HIS lack of standard of care that he gave to Michael on June 25th, Klines records will speak for themselves when the jurors see that Michael WAS NOT getting enough demeral from Kline to turn him into an addict, The stuff was used for enhancement procedures only.,

The defence's constant refs to klein have been bad enough during all the crosses but i can imagine the defence are just going to go into overdrive with him during their phase of the trial. Oh, and how can they bring up klein? - because unlike another doctor, he actually kept records so we know what mj was given.

I know next to nothing about drug addiction but if i was an insanely famous, multi-millionaire drug addict with an out-of-control addiction for demerol, i wouldn't be travelling in a car followed by the world's paparazzi, to a doctor's office twice a week to get some of this drug. I would have it on tap, in my home with someone qualified to inject me with it and I don't imagine dr murray who apparently didn't have any qualms about putting propofol into mj, wouldn't have been more than happy to be that 'someone qualified' (for a little extra cash).
 
well, the defense will say what they like to say when you have a prosecutor like Walgren!! the guy did not realise how inciminating it would have been to Murray's case to highlight 'witnessed the arrest' statemnt until Stienberg was asked by Flanagan , guess what Walgren went out of his way to remind everyone before Stienberg answered that Murray probably left for much longer and MJ was dead beyond help when he came back , he was playing into the hands of the defense , thank God for Stienberg and Flanagan's stupidity !!!!! See Stienberrg testimony was great because for the first time someone with knowlegde told those jurors MJ could have been saved thus Murray's actions or lack of actions even if MJ self administered caused MJ's death . But if you relied on Walgren questioning you would never get to know that!!


The defense wants AT ANY COST everyone to believe Murray left because if he did not leave and a bolus injection killed Mike the defense had no argument whatsoever to use . When the defense is enough desperate to impeach Murray and say in CLEAR terms that Murray left for much more than 20 minutes , what that say about their priorities ? everything is tolerated but the idea that Murray was there when everything took place !!! You would think Walgren figured that out long time ago
 
Last edited:
Maybe off topic somehow, but Michael tried with melatonin tablets many times. I've even asked him how they work since I was traveling between timezones a lot at one point. He said they may work for flight attendents but for him they were useless.

I agree with him. I've tried melatonin and they took forever to kick in and when they did the affect wore off in a couple of hours and I was wide awake again, heh.
 
Can he plead guilty now ???

Yes, he can. He can plead guilty during any stage of this trial.

I really wouldn't be too concerned about Klein! There are some FACTS about demerol that can be explained by rebuttal witnesses, if it comes to that. Demerol is a narcotic. It can be given every four to six hours, i.e. for pain relief after surgery. Visits to Klein's office only two or three times a week would not cause a physical addiction. No demerol was found in Michael's house, nor in his system. If the defense tries to say, "Michael was going through demerol withdrawal and Murray didn't KNOW?," then prosecution can say, "He was the DOCTOR, but one who kept no medical records." Withdrawal from narcotics has severe physical symptoms, and Murray WOULD HAVE KNOWN.

The POINT is, standard of care. The prosecution has to prove that what Murray was doing to Michael, and not doing FOR him, was likely to cause his death. The violations of standard of care were SO extreme, that at this point I really can't imagine the jury voting to acquit.

First, there was Murray's lack of monitoring OR rescue equipment. That, alone, was life-threatening to Michael. But that's not ALL. He ABANDONED his patient. He failed to call 911 in time. And on, and on. Any one of these failure would be enough to convict. But there wasn't just "one." There were multiple failures.

As far as Michael's "self-administering" is concerned (and I do NOT think that he did!)? That was covered by multiple witnesses, that any dangerous medications should not be accessible by the patient.

I'm not worried about the verdict. I'm worried about the SENTENCING. House arrest is a genuine possibility.
 
Is there a closed court hearing scheduled today, just the Judge and Lawyers?
 
I don't like the sound of Dr. White. He's already coming off as a pompous git, by offering to support the defense. I can't fathom how, just can't.
 
I cannot comprehend how Murray can be found not guilty. I cannot imagine any doctor going up there on behalf of Murray saying that what Murray did is within the standard of care unless that person wants to kills its own practice. With the whole laundry list of "severe gross negligent and substandard of care", if that still happens, then, there is no justice in America!!

I have a silly question. I believe the jury will find Murray guilty and when that happens, can the jury request that the maximum penalty be on Murray which I feel borders 2nd degree murder.
 
just watched the last 30 mins of steinbergs direct testimony with walgren as i missed that and the cross when at work (gonna watch the cross now) and even though we knew all this info about him not monitoring mj etc etc. his words have had me filling up. hes such a great speaker and makes everything so easy to understand that his words have really hit me hard and makes you realise all the things murray did. looking at that from the jurys point of view it good that his words have really got to me.because obviously it will hit home to the jury aswell. as he explains and points everything out in such a easy to understand way. you could be clueless about medicine and you will still totally get what hes saying about murrays actions.

yeah theres a closed hearing later. maybe start a new thread so we can post any news in it. think the hearings at 10.30 L.A time so about 1hr 40 from now
 
well, the defense will say what they like to say when you have a prosecutor like Walgren!! the guy did not realise how inciminating it would have been to Murray's case to highlight 'witnessed the arrest' statemnt until Stienberg was asked by Flanagan , guess what Walgren went out of his way to remind everyone before Stienberg answered that Murray probably left for much longer and MJ was dead beyond help when he came back , he was playing into the hands of the defense , thank God for Stienberg and Flanagan's stupidity !!!!! See Stienberrg testimony was great because for the first time someone with knowlegde told those jurors MJ could have been saved thus Murray's actions or lack of actions even if MJ self administered caused MJ's death . But if you relied on Walgren questioning you would never get to know that!!


The defense wants AT ANY COST everyone to believe Murray left because if he did not leave and a bolus injection killed Mike the defense had no argument whatsoever to use . When the defense is enough desperate to impeach Murray and say in CLEAR terms that Murray left for much more than 20 minutes , what that say about their priorities ? everything is tolerated but the idea that Murray was there when everything took place !!! You would think Walgren figured that out long time ago

I think you're putting too much stock in theory and speculation when the DA is in a win/win situation.

Thanks to Murray's own words they have him lock in a statement where the defense has to either call their own clinic a liar or someone who acted stupidly and self-serving when someone's life was in real danger. Defense wise, yes, it's better to say that Murray was out of the room for about 20 minutes and by the time Murray returned Michael has self-injected himself and died, so even if Murray did everything right it wouldn't had change anything.

The problem with the above is that Murray said in his own interview with the polices, win no prompt from the detectives, that Michael was alive and savable when he found him. The defense can't really say he was in denial when he took Michael's pulse with a monitor that gave him a reading which he remembered, checked his color, and said he was still warm. Murray also clearly said that he knew something was wrong because Michael's chest wasn't moving. If he had self-injected, he should has passed out immediately and shouldn't had been in the same position Murray left him.

As I wrote before, once the defense admits, which they did btw, that Murray lied about time he was gone and about the phone calls, it impeached Murray because the defense's plan is based on Murray's word alone. For example, he didn't have a written consent from Michael for the treatment he was given. The defense says it could had been done orally, but we only have Murray's word. The defense said that Murray was able to keep track with all the drugs he gave and the time, but that's Murray's word too. They said Michael begged for propofol, but once again that's Murray's word.

If he was willing to lie to police in an interview where he was supposed to be honest and wanted to set the record straight, why wouldn't he lie about the amount of drugs he gave Michael to make himself look more innocent? Why wouldn't he lie about Michael begging for drugs if it puts the blame on Michael who can't defend himself? Why wouldn't he lie about Michael being alive so he could hide drugs and cover himself? Murray has every reason to lie and he has been caught on record multiple times doing so for big and even small stuff like the bodyguards and the bathroom, the balloon pump, the death certificate, who ordered the autopsy, ect.

As I stated before, with all of this, why would anyone on that jury believe anything that Murray claimed? The only thing the DA has to do is hammer this point home on the closing statement and the defense really can't counter any of it.
 
30 mins in to steinbergs cross. and just got to the bit where hes going through murrays interview and stating the parts where murrays says i used the IV hes leading the jurrors through all the pages.im sat here clapping. what a witness. and the part about klien where he says you mean to ask id be giving that drug to an addcit. maybe its me but in that second of silence after he said it its like there was some muttering form the court supporting what he said

love it how steinberg questions flanagan and gets flanagan to admit murray gave this dangerous anesthetic to mj for 2 months non stop via a drip lol.

so flannagan says after 9 hrs of trying to get mj to sleep i should awaken him if hes still asleep. responce you sholdnt be giving it to him in the first place!! classic answer. excellent that both expert drs testfiyed to the same thing that if mj were still asleep after the diprivan should have worn off then there could be a problem and you better wake him up and defo not leave the room

seems that the defence are defo goin for the murray was out of the room longer than 2 mins. flanagan keeps asking do u know what murray was doing between 11-12..jeez flanagan is calling his own client a liar now saying lets assume murray was gone longer than 2 minutes! hes impeaching his own client! flanagan now impeaches murray over the pulse bascially saying murray was lieing over that and mj didnt have one when murray told police he did!

flanagan makes me sick trying to defend murrays reason for not calling 911 straight away. i doubt flanagan would say that if it was his wife.

one big problem with the murray was using the drip that night argument. ther was no diprivan in the long tubing.the pros hasnt addressed that issue did murray move it? was one ever found? cause thats a big question for a jurror is the pros is saying he was given a drip that night.
 
Last edited:
Dr White is the same person who sent the DA a letter detailing what Murray had told him and we all found out that Murray had changed his story. Saying that he stepped out of the room to make a phone call instead of saying that he went to the bathroom. And he also said Murray told him that he had experience with propofol when and that Michael had put propofol in his fruit juice when he was not looking.
 
@elusive, you can see now why I really didn't want you to miss it. Steinberg was ace, and left Flanagan speechless at times, didn't let him get away with anything. Loved how he argued with him over the iv, very clear with no doubt in his mind. A million females fell instantly in love with him.
 
The Pros really got very credible expert witnesses. This is a win win case and the defense cannot repair any of the damage done to their client.
 
Thanks to Murray's own words they have him lock in a statement where the defense has to either call their own clinic a liar or someone who acted stupidly and self-serving when someone's life was in real danger. Defense wise, yes, it's better to say that Murray was out of the room for about 20 minutes and by the time Murray returned Michael has self-injected himself and died, so even if Murray did everything right it wouldn't had change anything.

The problem with the above is that Murray said in his own interview with the polices, win no prompt from the detectives, that Michael was alive and savable when he found him. The defense can't really say he was in denial when he took Michael's pulse with a monitor that gave him a reading which he remembered, checked his color, and said he was still warm. Murray also clearly said that he knew something was wrong because Michael's chest wasn't moving. If he had self-injected, he should has passed out immediately and shouldn't had been in the same position Murray left him.

As I wrote before, once the defense admits, which they did btw, that Murray lied about time he was gone and about the phone calls, it impeached Murray because the defense's plan is based on Murray's word alone. For example, he didn't have a written consent from Michael for the treatment he was given. The defense says it could had been done orally, but we only have Murray's word. The defense said that Murray was able to keep track with all the drugs he gave and the time, but that's Murray's word too. They said Michael begged for propofol, but once again that's Murray's word.

totally agree. thats hammered home when u watch the cross of steinberg which ive just finished doing. the defence are having to impeach their own witness cause murray told the police to many lies.or he told to many lies later when he changed his story. the defence are now having to work around those lies and in doing so are calling thier own client a liar!

re steinberg and the other dr that testifyed. its excellent to note that both are at the top of their field.interms of steinberg they really couldnt have gotten anyone better considering the job he does of investigating drs for the medical board.and its important that both drs gave the exact same testimony interms of the errors murray made.they totally supported each others testimony which is so important
 
Dr White is the same person who sent the DA a letter detailing what Murray had told him and we all found out that Murray had changed his story. Saying that he stepped out of the room to make a phone call instead of saying that he went to the bathroom. And he also said Murray told him that he had experience with propofol when and that Michael had put propofol in his fruit juice when he was not looking.

is that correct because if thats the case thats one of the experts that can only testify if murray testifys.remember the motion ages ago where the pros argued that you cant have these experts testify unless murray does because it would mean murray getting his version of events out there without being cross examined. and the judge agreed and said the two experts could only testify if murray testifys first. the other defence expert is michael Hanson. is this the other expert murray talked to? and was apart of the judges ruling? because if he is that means murray will testify!

*EDIT* just looked on the court website and the motion is there. yes paul white is one of the experts but the other is a joseph heratizi (sp) not the michael hanson whos gonna testfiy. so if murray isnt testifying and obviously white is, then white cant talk about the conversation with murray and the letter he sent flanagan. if murray is gonna testfiy you would expert that joseph guy to be a witness but hes been replaced by hanson
 
Last edited:
I just saw on twitter that Dr. Shafer's father died last night. Walgren will inform the court today as to whether he can testify on Monday. The judge said he would make Monday an off day if Dr. Shafer couldn't testify.
 
Defence will have 15 witnesses. they expect to be done either next friday or the following monday. at this stage court will continue monday as normal. the defence wanted some footage from tii excluded judge refused and theres a pic of the kids the defence didnt want to be allowed in. the judge said its relevent as murray mentioned it in his interview.

more info in the link i posted sorry cant copy and paste
 
The problem with the above is that Murray said in his own interview with the polices, win no prompt from the detectives, that Michael was alive and savable when he found him. The defense can't really say he was in denial when he took Michael's pulse with a monitor that gave him a reading which he remembered, checked his color, and said he was still warm. Murray also clearly said that he knew something was wrong because Michael's chest wasn't moving. If he had self-injected, he should has passed out immediately and shouldn't had been in the same position Murray left him.

who allowed Stienberg to stress that? Flanagn's questions !!! I'm saying those questions should be asked by Walgren himself. That was the highlight of steinberg's testimony .
 
Back
Top