Murray Trial Day 20. October 28th

[HumanNature2210]

The biggest problem with White's chart is that he claim that Murray gave the bolus an hour earlier at 10.40am and then Michael injected himself when he left the room at about 11.40am. This is not true to Murray's statement which says that he gave the bolus injection, observe over a few minutes and left the room immediately and not 1 hour later.

Also, the small residue of lorazepam that White said is found in Michael's stomach could be from many, many days before. How can 8 pill just have so little residue so soon. They are trying to confuse the jury. Not so easy.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

When they talked about Murray having the qualifications to administer sedation they also read out from a leaflet that it included 'monitoring' - a shot in the foot which I hope doesn't go unnoticed.

white hurt the defence with those statements. he went throug the training someone goes through to get those qualifactions and he listed everything murray didnt do or have. all the things you are taught that are needed. and seeing as murray has had the training he knew he needed these things. its not as if he can claim ignorance

 

[OnirMJ]

1 I think only if the pros wants him as witness. otherwise no
2. both and alone can cause cardiac arrest. therefore in OK there is euquipment. Cardiac arrest means no heartpulse. He was in respotary arrest, CM says he felt a pulse

So cardiac arrest means sudden stop of heart, meaning no heart beats?

 

[Ingelief]

The biggest problem with White's chart is that he claim that Murray gave the bolus an hour earlier at 10.40am and then Michael injected himself when he left the room at about 11.40am. This is not true to Murray's statement which says that he gave the bolus injection, observe over a few minutes and left the room immediately and not 1 hour later.

Also, the small residue of lorazepam that White said is found in Michael's stomach could be from many, many days before. How can 8 pill just have so little residue so soon. They are trying to confuse the jury. Not so easy.

true i hope walgren will adress that timeline issue

 

[Ingelief]

So cardiac arrest means sudden stop of heart, meaning no heart beats?

yes that is correct

 

[missred07]

1 No only if pros calls him

I thought the defense can call him again. NO? Ok then I was wrong. Thanks for the info

 

[Kikuchiyo]

On the other hand Walgren will now get 2 full days to prepare for the most important cross of the entire case....

...and Walgren's career.

Selective presentation of facts (and distortion of the facts) by Dr. White has left much space for breaking his expert testimony. I am sure that David Walgren + Deborah Brazil + Dr. Steven Shafer will tear White's testimony apart.

 

[Naturelle]

Did he say that with a small amount of propofol you don't need monitoring equipment?

I am going to try and have faith in Walgren come Monday.

guys we all need to have faith, think good thoughts, positive for MJ's sake.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

i remember hearing him say 10 mins but i dont think he said heart beating. nothing stood out interms of him talking about the concentration levels. which was something i was looking out for. he certainly didnt address anything in relation to mj died straight away which would be mentioned if u were trying to rebute the high levels. maybe they are hoping the jury forget about that important issue. walgren needs to decide whether to bringhte issue up on cross or not for fear of what answer he might give

I'm thinking it must be implied as on the chart showing blood level of prop at death, the vertical line was within a minute i think of mj supposedly taking a 25mg of prop. But weird that they never addressed it specifically - must be a weakness.

 

[MsCassieMollie]

Kathy and Rick speaks to JVM about the trial and Michael:

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/28/hiltons-show-their-support-for-the-jackson-family/

Kathy and Rick Hilton attended Dr. Conrad Murray's trial on Friday to show their support for the Jacksons. There was no sign of their daughter Paris.

HLN's Jane Velez-Mitchell caught up with them as they walked into court.

"We are here for Michael and the family and we love all the support for the family and the children of Michael," Kathy said.

"A lot of questions need to be answered," Rick said.

 

[Ingelief]

I'm thinking it must be implied as on the chart showing blood level of prop at death, the vertical line was within a minute i think of mj supposedly taking a 25mg of prop. But weird that they never addressed it specifically - must be a weakness.

what do you mean? You mean the greenline that wasnt on the level of michaels autopsy blood?

 

[Bonnie Blue]

The biggest problem with White's chart is that he claim that Murray gave the bolus an hour earlier at 10.40am and then Michael injected himself when he left the room at about 11.40am. This is not true to Murray's statement which says that he gave the bolus injection, observe over a few minutes and left the room immediately and not 1 hour later.

Actually murray's statement never specifies a time when he leaves mj to go to the bathroom. He just says he stays with mj after the bolus injecton until he feels comfortable leaving him. Judging by what happens after he finds mj not breathing after his trip to the bathroom, it does suggest it was around 11.45-12 ish he went to bathroom.

^^Ingelief - i'm only going by memory, but in the white graph showing his scenario, i think he had to show what the blood level of prop was at time of death (around 12) and it was just after mj's supposed injection of prop at 11.55ish, so death must have been pretty instantaneous (according to their theory).

 

[Naturelle]

I have few questions:

1. Can White come back after dr. Shafer testify again?
2. Can propofol with benzos cause cardiac arrest? And if the person have cardiac arrest, is he still alive (is his heart still beating or how long his heart continues to beat)? If it really was cardiac arrest then is Murray lying that MJ's heart was still beating or is that possible?
3. Are we 100% sure that it was pulmonary and not cardiac arrest? Can coroner make a mistake like that?

Please..

It was a respiratory arrest.

 

[Milka]

Also, the small residue of lorazepam that White said is found in Michael's stomach could be from many, many days before. How can 8 pill just have so little residue so soon. They are trying to confuse the jury. Not so easy.

Actually, that is not true, from hours before, not days. Nothing stays in your stomach for days ever, or the soup you had for lunch 3 days ago would still be in your stomach. Shafer said, after 22 minutes half of the Lorazepam in the stomach would be gone, then again after 22 minutes half of what was left would be gone, etc.

 

[OnirMJ]

Flanagan never asked White if he thinks that is was cardiac arrest, meaning sudden death! But Chernoff did ask dr. Shafer that. White never mentioned how long MJ was still alive after "self injection". But obviously he thinks that it was cardiac arrest and that MJ died right after "self injection". Because that is the ONLY way besides the drip that the blood level of propofol would be that high.

So according to the latest by the defense they are saying that Murray LIED in his interview that MJ's heart was still beating when he found him! Walgren should ask if he lied that, what else did he lied about.

 

[Milka]

Actually murray's statement never specifies a time when he leaves mj to go to the bathroom. He just says he stays with mj after the bolus injecton until he feels comfortable leaving him. Judging by what happens after he finds mj not breathing after his trip to the bathroom, it does suggest it was around 11.45-12 ish he went to bathroom.

No, Murray did say 10:40 or 10:50 or something around there in his interview. His whole timeline was off, considering that 911 was called about 1 1/2 hours later.

And btw., I love how White called it "crime scene". He was the first (and only) one to ever call it that. And he is a defense expert.

 

[bouee]

yes exactly. i asked if anyone heard white address this in direct as i wanted to make sure i hadnt missed anything. he he didnt address it thats a huge issue.theres no other reason for it other than it coming from a drip

He did , with chart showing everything (midazolam, lorazepam, 25mg propofol over 3 mn, and 25mg rapid bolus). The rapid bolus did reach this concentration (I think he even said the concentration could be higher)

but those levels could only be that high if mj died straight away. as shaffer said they go down and even if mj stopepd breathing straight away is heart would continue for upto 15 mins which would reduce the levels

Yes, you are right. he never adressed "how long' it would take, at least I didn't hear anything about that, and since the chart was over several hours, it was not clear to see

 

[Louise.]

Just to clarify, respiratory arrest is when you stop breathing, but your heart keeps beating until there is no oxygen left. For example, when you hold your breath, you are not breathing, but your heart keeps beating. However, you can feel your heart starting to slow down. If you were to hold your breath for long enough, your heart would eventually stop beating altogether. Cardiac arrest is when your heart suddenly stops beating completely.

 

[Ingelief]

yes louis

What i dont get.. The bolus inject given bymichael himself at 11.50 *white model* gave a rapid high green line, but it goes down rapid too. So how will it be the same level as autopsy blood, if the heart beats some longer that the respotary arrest?

 

[xthunderx2]

hey guys just came in from work..guess I missed all testimony for today. Turned on the tv and saw them recapping about white setting up an iv and saying that shafer set it up wrong. White was letting the stuff run into a cup. That makes no sense,

 

[missred07]

Just to clarify, respiratory arrest is when you stop breathing, but your heart keeps beating until there is no oxygen left. For example, when you hold your breath, you are not breathing, but your heart keeps beating. However, you can feel your heart starting to slow down. If you were to hold your breath for long enough, your heart would eventually stop beating altogether. Cardiac arrest is when your heart suddenly stops beating completely.

Your definition is correct but you example is not so correct. When the oxgen go down, your heart actually will beat faster and faster because it want more oxygen to circulate throughout the body. It also won't happened that your heart stop when you hold your breath for long enough. Because you will pass out and your medulla oblongata keep sending out message to breath automatically. Your heart won't just stop because you hold your breath long enough.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

He did , with chart showing everything (midazolam, lorazepam, 25mg propofol over 3 mn, and 25mg rapid bolus). The rapid bolus did reach this concentration (I think he even said the concentration could be higher) Yes, you are right. he never adressed "how long' it would take, at least I didn't hear anything about that, and since the chart was over several hours, it was not clear to see

so they are trying to decieve by saying yes it could reach that level of concentation but then he doesnt admit the levels go down quickly. and the only way they could have found those levels is if he passed straight away but of course murrays claims dont support it

 

[bouee]

Yes Elusive, I understand it the same way. It's weird, but it sounds good for us

 

[Bonnie Blue]

No, Murray did say 10:40 or 10:50 or something around there in his interview. His whole timeline was off, considering that 911 was called about 1 1/2 hours later.

And btw., I love how White called it "crime scene". He was the first (and only) one to ever call it that. And he is a defense expert.

Sorry to be a pain, but this was something that bugged me in that 'tec interview. There were no specific timings for anything that happened after 10.40-10.50 bolus injection of prop and 12.20 911 call. The detectives never asked for the time murray went to the bathroom and when he discovered mj not breathing. All murray said was he stayed by mj's bedside until he felt comfortable enough to leave which could mean 15 mins or an hour. You can check the interview if you like, but i'm certain there was no specific timeline.

Yes, the crime scene was a nice touch. Surprised chernoff didn't object.

 

[OnirMJ]

Many people are forgetting that Murray didn't go to the bathroom! He was on the phone for over 40 minutes! I personally think that he gave MJ a drip and started to do other things (responding to mails and phone conversations). I think that when he saw MJ that he was already dead for period of time.

And also White said that is very hard even for him to pull out propofol into the syringe. And according to Murray, White and Co. MJ woke up (after 10 Lorazapam tablets), fill the syringe with 1:1 ratio of propofol and Lidocane! And self injected. And all that in just 2 minutes while Murray was in the bathroom taking a piss and allegedly emptying some of MJ's urine (although full jar was still in the room!).

 

[OnirMJ]

so they are trying to decieve by saying yes it could reach that level of concentation but then he doesnt admit the levels go down quickly. and the only way they could have found those levels is if he passed straight away but of course murrays claims dont support it

Actually if he died straight away after "self injecting" the levels would be much higher! Around 4-6.

 

[Nonoka]

I've just came in here and don't have the time to read trough 16 sites, I'm just flipping through. However, it seems like there was a discussion about that "self injection" from Michael...

But, as of now, there still isn't any evidence Michael self injected, right?

 

[HIStory]

If MJ self-injected, where are his fingerprints?

 

[smoothlugar]

Well, Dr. White is very deceptive and sly on purpose, in spite of his pretended falsely "neutrality" in his monotonous and apparently unemotional, matter-of-fact manner of speech. (We saw that when Shaffer was testifying he was also passionate, and responded with body language to his peer testimony... , besides other evidence of verbal insults we have learnt from him...).

Here is just ONE EXAMPLE OF DISTORTION, about the first demonstration he carried out:

taking sly digs at shafer again, saying he didn't use the correct iv set ..

whites got a syringe and bottles and fills it up with 5ml of lidocaine (saline) and 5 of diprivan going to ilustrate giving the diprivan.as shaffer used another IV set. saying shaffer said most of the dip would have stayed in the tubing. white says thats not correct

But there was something different White is forgetting about how Shaffer did it... (he used a clip as CM said to stop the saline flowing)

From the summaries about Shaffer’s demonstration using a syringe with 25mg propofol:
“CM in his statement to the police said that he turned off the saline before giving Propofol with a syringe. Shafer shows the rubber clamp and how you can stop the flow with the clamp. Shafer demonstrates infusing 25mg of Propofol with syringe as CM mentioned in his interview. Propofol doesn't come out of the tube as the saline is turned off and not coming to push Propofol out. So CM's description of infusing it over 3 to 5 minutes is impossible if the turned off the saline. You need to unclamp the saline for Propofol to come out.”

White is very unprofessional and also purposely deceptive, choosing and picking Murray's statement when it suits him to support his case. He … is not trustworthy.

Walgren must point out how White is picking and choosing from Murray's statement to suit is case :
1) Murray said he switch off the saline and White did not in his demonstration;
2) Murray said he left for only 2 mins and it contradict White's claim that it is difficult to draw out propofol

Selective presentation of facts (and distortion of the facts) by Dr. White has left much space for breaking his expert testimony. I am sure that David Walgren + Deborah Brazil + Dr. Steven Shafer will tear White's testimony apart.

 

[bobmoo79]

Where were the hiltons during the 2005 trial? I didn't see them outside or inside the court house then....