Michael & the term: "Drug Addict"

Can someone clarify what exactly in the autopsy report proved he wasn't an addict? Many replies reference it, yet no specifics are given... it was my understanding of the report (as I remember it, I have not read it in over a year, so please correct me if I am wrong) that it just showed that he had no organ damage?? And that there was no demerol in his system, but there was lorazepam & diazepam (which do have a high potential for abuse)?? Was Murray administering benzos IV in addition to the prescribed pills (maybe a reason why the prescription was not finished)?

I'm not trying to say Michael was an addict, I am just trying to get a clearer picture & better understanding of why people are saying the autopsy proves he was not an addict...
 
Can someone clarify what exactly in the autopsy report proved he wasn't an addict? Many replies reference it, yet no specifics are given... it was my understanding of the report (as I remember it, I have not read it in over a year, so please correct me if I am wrong) that it just showed that he had no organ damage?? And that there was no demerol in his system, but there was lorazepam & diazepam (which do have a high potential for abuse)?? Was Murray administering benzos IV in addition to the prescribed pills (maybe a reason why the prescription was not finished)?

I'm not trying to say Michael was an addict, I am just trying to get a clearer picture & better understanding of why people are saying the autopsy proves he was not an addict...


I think this story tells it best:


Since our doc here is not an MD anyway, I can tell you what I've learned studying the latest literature -- at least the latest to be translated for laymen. The liver is principally affected by the additives in pain pills -- chiefly, tylenol. But I'm sure you knew that.

The other organ damaged by long-term opiate use is, unfortunately, the brain. Over time, the brain physically changes to adapt to the constant presence of opiates. When the opiates are withdrawn, the brain cannot function normally. This is why so many of us frequently say we are using simply to feel normal. Non-users think we're using the word normal instead of high. But the latest research tells us we are more correct that we could ever know. Researchers compare the brains of long-term opiate addicts to that of stroke victims. Without the continued use of opiates, the long-term addict must struggle as a stroke victim struggles to utilize new neural pathways to achieve a semblance of normality.

I have used opiates contantly for 30, no, 31 years. There is no way back for me. 31 years of changes in my brain cannot be undone by all the 12-step meetings in the world. My doom is sealed by my physiology. That is why, as much as I don't like the idea, I am applying for methadone maintenance. Detox for me is a waste of time. I've detoxed myself 50 times and, each time, there I sit, with a brain that can no longer function without opiates. Time does not heal all things.

I tell this story, probably too often, because for many on this forum, the way back is still open. From the point at which one begins recovery, the great dramas and opportunities of life expand in all directions to infinity. Don't throw away your chance to play a role in the world as I have.


over all, a chronic opiate user w/o the apa will die from organ damage rather than overdose, most chronic user overdoses are cause by the liver not filtering the drug like it used to leading to acute intoxication. The liver and pancreas are usually the first to have complications.


opiates lower testosterone production in men. My doc says most studies confirm that test levels increase after opiates are stopped, but unsure if they resume to full production if used for very extended periods.


Amphetamines also cause severe organ damage over time including damage to your gastrointestinal system and malnutrition. You may develop ulcers and experience extreme and unwanted weight loss. You will also be much more susceptible to heart disease and blood pressure that it dangerously high, as well as heart attack and cardiomyopathy, or the condition or a weakened heart that cannot perform its duties or is enlarged. Amphetamines also cause permanent brain damage and mental instability as well as memory loss and confusion and difficulty speaking and communicating over time.
 
I think this story tells it best:


Since our doc here is not an MD anyway, I can tell you what I've learned studying the latest literature -- at least the latest to be translated for laymen. The liver is principally affected by the additives in pain pills -- chiefly, tylenol. But I'm sure you knew that.

The other organ damaged by long-term opiate use is, unfortunately, the brain. Over time, the brain physically changes to adapt to the constant presence of opiates. When the opiates are withdrawn, the brain cannot function normally. This is why so many of us frequently say we are using simply to feel normal. Non-users think we're using the word normal instead of high. But the latest research tells us we are more correct that we could ever know. Researchers compare the brains of long-term opiate addicts to that of stroke victims. Without the continued use of opiates, the long-term addict must struggle as a stroke victim struggles to utilize new neural pathways to achieve a semblance of normality.

I have used opiates contantly for 30, no, 31 years. There is no way back for me. 31 years of changes in my brain cannot be undone by all the 12-step meetings in the world. My doom is sealed by my physiology. That is why, as much as I don't like the idea, I am applying for methadone maintenance. Detox for me is a waste of time. I've detoxed myself 50 times and, each time, there I sit, with a brain that can no longer function without opiates. Time does not heal all things.

I tell this story, probably too often, because for many on this forum, the way back is still open. From the point at which one begins recovery, the great dramas and opportunities of life expand in all directions to infinity. Don't throw away your chance to play a role in the world as I have.


over all, a chronic opiate user w/o the apa will die from organ damage rather than overdose, most chronic user overdoses are cause by the liver not filtering the drug like it used to leading to acute intoxication. The liver and pancreas are usually the first to have complications.


opiates lower testosterone production in men. My doc says most studies confirm that test levels increase after opiates are stopped, but unsure if they resume to full production if used for very extended periods.


Amphetamines also cause severe organ damage over time including damage to your gastrointestinal system and malnutrition. You may develop ulcers and experience extreme and unwanted weight loss. You will also be much more susceptible to heart disease and blood pressure that it dangerously high, as well as heart attack and cardiomyopathy, or the condition or a weakened heart that cannot perform its duties or is enlarged. Amphetamines also cause permanent brain damage and mental instability as well as memory loss and confusion and difficulty speaking and communicating over time.

Micheal's official cause of death was acute Propofol intoxication...so if I'm reading this article correctly, it suggests that intoxication occurs when the liver of a "chronic opiate user" is unable to filter the drug properly...?

In Michael's case, I think that Murray just gave him too much Propofol at once.
 
^Acute intoxication as far as I know is a fancy term for overdose. So, he died of propofol overdose. And, adrianamonk, the tests showed which substances were and were not present in his blood/urine at that time. So, most of them turned negative, including Demerol, so that is how it supports that he wasn't a drug addict.
 
Okay, so all over the place I'm hearing that the testimony from Dan Anderson today really shed a lot of light on this topic. Unfortunately, for some reason, my recorder didn't record anything past 1:00 (my time)...so I'm missing about 6 hours from today... which means I missed ALL of Dan Anderson's testimony...ARGGHH!! Can somebody please tell me what he said in court today that proved to everyone that Michael wasn't a drug addict? And if possible, a link to the footage of his entire testimony would be great too. Thanks.
 
And from what I've been told, Propofol isn't an addictive narcotic. And I could understand that theory dealing with organ failure. the coroner mentioned that Michael was a healthy adult man.
 
MJ was not a addict as in drugs on the street such as cocaine where it just ruins your life and has you mentally just at the lowest, but he did have a problem with drugs for pain and sleep which is still a addiction. You can get addicted to pain medication because it's so easy to ease the pain, and MJ had issues with his back and other ailments. Relying on a powerful drug such as propofol to put you to sleep, i see it as a addiction because i think MJ liked the state it put him in which was get away from all the negativity. I think the drug put him in a state where he was away from the world.

Propofol did more than just give MJ sleep, which is why so much was ordered and why he went so out of his way to get it with all the fake names. Just keeping it real
 
Hey everyone,

I think it's safe to say, that for the past 2 years, we've all been doing our own research in order to understand what happened to Michael. I also think it's safe to say that there are some things that some of us are still struggling to make sense of. For me, it is the one term that is constantly, incessantly, & relentlessly being used with his name. That term is "drug addict". I hear it & see it in countless headlines, news articles, magazines, TV shows, radio shows, interviews, court documents, etc. I assume it'll only appear more frequently as the trial approaches & eventually kicks off - So, I feel like it would be better to understand now, rather than later. I wrote something in another thread (that ironically had the words "drug addiction" in the title) that I think basically sums up my frustration. This:


?^ By "overwhelming majority", I meant the general public & media.

I realize that this may be a tiresome topic for some, but having all of the evidence pertaining to the "drug addiction" issue compiled into ONE thread would be EXTREMELY helpful in understanding (at least for me). I'd really appreciate it if everyone could stay on topic & not argue. PLEASE provide all of the evidence you can to prove your point, and PLEASE let this thread stay open. Also, A BIG THANKS to everyone who helps me make sense of something that has been irritating me for a while now.

Thanks,
ForeverKOP

Hi, Excessive use of Opioids leaves unmistakable evidence in the Bones and cardiac tissue. Michael did not show any signs of longtime misuse of Opioids, however it is quite apparent and even admitted by Michael, that he had an on and off addiction to pain killers.
 
A big thank you to all the haters and the media. as anderson testifyed they tested mj for pretty much every drug known to man cause of media reports saying mj was an addict. and guess what they found! nothing other than what murray gave him.
 
I was smiling so hard during his testimony that my cheeks started to hurt! :D It's almost a 2nd Vindication Day. But with the reports focusing on the doll & HNL's crap that good news will be swepped under the carpet.
 
MJ was not a addict as in drugs on the street such as cocaine where it just ruins your life and has you mentally just at the lowest, but he did have a problem with drugs for pain and sleep which is still a addiction. You can get addicted to pain medication because it's so easy to ease the pain, and MJ had issues with his back and other ailments. Relying on a powerful drug such as propofol to put you to sleep, i see it as a addiction because i think MJ liked the state it put him in which was get away from all the negativity. I think the drug put him in a state where he was away from the world.

Propofol did more than just give MJ sleep, which is why so much was ordered and why he went so out of his way to get it with all the fake names. Just keeping it real

He didn't use fake names to get it. All the names he used were on file of being his and if he was really addictive he would had used it without a doctor.

Also, simply using a drug and liking its effects is not addicted. The official definition of addiction is:

The American Psychiatric Association's current Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) defines substance dependence as:

"When an individual persists in use of alcohol or other drugs despite problems related to use of the substance, substance dependence may be diagnosed. Compulsive and repetitive use may result in tolerance to the effect of the drug and withdrawal symptoms when use is reduced or stopped. This, along with Substance Abuse are considered Substance Use Disorders...."



In 2001, the American Academy of Pain Medicine, the American Pain Society, and the American Society of Addiction Medicine jointly issued "Definitions Related to the Use of Opioids for the Treatment of Pain", which defined the following terms:

Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiologic disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.

Physical dependence is a state of being that is manifested by a drug class specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by abrupt cessation, rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood level of the drug, and/or administration of an antagonist.
Tolerance is the body's physical adaptation to a drug: greater amounts of the drug are required over time to achieve the initial effect as the body "gets used to" and adapts to the intake.

Pseudo addiction is a term which has been used to describe patient behaviors that may occur when pain is undertreated. Patients with unrelieved pain may become focused on obtaining medications, may "clock watch," and may otherwise seem inappropriately "drug seeking." Even such behaviors as illicit drug use and deception can occur in the patient's efforts to obtain relief. Pseudoaddiction can be distinguished from true addiction in that the behaviors resolve when pain is effectively treated.
 
Jermaine Jackson on Twitter:
I hope the "rent-a-pundits" on TV were listening to this week's lab results that prove there was no Demerol in Michael's body when he died. Finally, the truth comes out to nail the speculative bullshit that has filled air-time by people who prefer to fill in the blanks rather than stick to facts from court: that there is NO evidence of what my brother was 'under' at the time of Murray's audio recording; there is NO evidence that Michael was "addicted" to Propofol as some, like Dr Drew, have guessed; there is NO evidence that Michael's insomnia was linked to Demerol usage (a defense theory).

I like this!
 
Although Nancy Grace is clearly on the prosecution side (yes, I know her views about the 2003 trial and yes I know I shouldn't be watching her) I can't stand when she uses a term that's even worse than drug addict...she calls MJ a "junkie". I mean, come on. To me, a "junkie" is one who is addicted to narcotics such as heroine or cocaine. Millions and millions of idiots who are not as critical of her as I am or who don't really know the facts are watching her and being influenced by her words so I think she needs to watch what she says.
 
^Uh...hello. It's Nancy Grace. The same woman who has to go on "Dancing With The Stars" and show her privates for publicity, not to mention fart on national television and blame it on her partner. In case it has escaped your notice, she's not exactly known for "sticking to the facts." She will continue to use the term "junkie" because it sounds waaay more exciting than admitting the truth, that one being: Michael Jackson was not a drug addict, as per the blood and urine drug tests conducted at the time of his death.

You expect a woman thick enough to believe the impossible allegations of a family of con artists to do her research regarding this, or any other, case? Nancy Grace is known for one thing, and that is:



That's Satan's special girl for you! I don't know why you would watch her voluntarily... Not even her own employees like her. Just look up "Nancy Grace Gets Told Off", and you will see what Elizabeth, one of her control room employees, did. (Love you, Elizabeth!?)
 
And I can't stand the way she keeps saying MJ died surrounded by his own urine as if he was lying in a pool of it!

Again, sensationalism. We all know how she feels about Michael, so of course Satan's special girl would take it all out of proportion like that for the sake of humiliating him. She does this all the time, and is a very nasty person, not only towards Michael, but towards others on that disgraceful show of hers. She once made fun of some lawyer's stuttering problem because he dared to disagree with her.
 
I'm confused with the testimony today - all this talk about Demerol, addiction, and withdrawal. I've only been able to catch snippets of today's testimony through my phone & a little off of TV through HLN & I probably won't be able to get caught up with everything that happened because I have a TON of homework. Can someone please explain what was proved in court today (Day 19) in regard to the topic of this thread??
 
that kliens medical records dont support it

ALL of the headlines I'm seeing right now are saying the exact opposite of that. Right now, Google News has around 4000K+ articles that have headlines like - "Addiction Expert: Michael Jackson Was Likely Hooked on Pain Medication?", "Jackson dependent on painkiller, trial expert says?","Jackson 'possibly' addicted to Botox painkillers", "Jackson 'possibly' addicted to Botox painkillers", "Expert says Jackson was likely addicted to pain med", "Expert says Jackson was likely addicted to pain med", "CNN: Doc: MJ was dependant on painkillers", "Jackson likely addicted to painkiller"...the list goes on and on. I also caught on TV that Michael had gone to Klein's office to get Demerol over 20 times in the course of 3 months...what is going on?? How are Klein's medical records "not supporting" this? If anything, the defense is having a field day with using these medical records as evidence.
 
I didn't watch Waldman's testimony. I read on TMZ this article.

Addiction expert Dr. Robert Waldman -- the defense's penultimate witness -- said Michael Jackson became physically dependent on the pain killer Demerol right before he died.

Waldman said Jackson received "unusually large" amounts of the highly-addictive drug during at least 24 visits to his dermatologist between March and June, 2009.

Waldman said one of the symptoms of withdrawal from the drug is insomnia... a condition MJ was known to suffer from.

Defense attorney Ed Chernoff went over medical records from MJ's dermatologist -- Dr. Arnold Klein -- which showed each time Jackson went in for a botox and anti-perspiration treatments -- relatively painless procedures -- he got a boatload of Demerol.

MJ started his "treatments" in March 2009 ... getting 200 mg of Demerol per visit. By May, he was receiving 300 mg.

During an extremely tense cross examination, Waldman admitted he couldn't say for sure whether MJ was addicted to Demerol ... but he would diagnose him as "dependent."
 
Walgren to Dr. Waldmen: based on Dr. Kleins medical records alone, would you diagnose MJ as addicted to demerol? Probably not.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Michael-Jackson-was-NOT-an-addict/288817687803025
 
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ALL of the headlines I'm seeing right now are saying the exact opposite of that. Right now, Google News has around 4000K+ articles that have headlines like - "Addiction Expert: Michael Jackson Was Likely Hooked on Pain Medication?", "Jackson dependent on painkiller, trial expert says?","Jackson 'possibly' addicted to Botox painkillers", "Jackson 'possibly' addicted to Botox painkillers", "Expert says Jackson was likely addicted to pain med", "Expert says Jackson was likely addicted to pain med", "CNN: Doc: MJ was dependant on painkillers", "Jackson likely addicted to painkiller"...the list goes on and on. I also caught on TV that Michael had gone to Klein's office to get Demerol over 20 times in the course of 3 months...what is going on?? How are Klein's medical records "not supporting" this? If anything, the defense is having a field day with using these medical records as evidence.

It doesn't support it because if Michael was depended he would had need his fix more than every 12 to 48 hours and he would had gone through withdraws sooner. It is also known that Michael does have a high tolerates for painkillers, hint the larger amount that needs to be given. Also, some of those shots were for places like near Michael's eyes and in his groin area.

The expert was also extremely bias and based some of his assumptions from media reports going back to the 80s. He also made the assumption that Michael was getting his fix somewhere else, doctor shopping. The problem being is where was he getting his fix? He had no painkillers in his house and the media didn't see him to go any other doctor besides Klien. So, where was the other doctors given him drugs beside Murray? The expert didn't even know what drugs Murray gave.
 
ALL of the headlines I'm seeing right now are saying the exact opposite of that

If anything, the defense is having a field day with using these medical records as evidence. [/SIZE]

Of course, the media is having a field day - it's what they do. They don't let the facts get in the way of a scandalous headline involving mj. As with the 05 trial, you have to consider the cross-examination. Do the medical records show mj an addict - probably not.
 
ALL of the headlines I'm seeing right now are saying the exact opposite of that. Right now, Google News has around 4000K+ articles that have headlines like - "Addiction Expert: Michael Jackson Was Likely Hooked on Pain Medication?", "Jackson dependent on painkiller, trial expert says?","Jackson 'possibly' addicted to Botox painkillers", "Jackson 'possibly' addicted to Botox painkillers", "Expert says Jackson was likely addicted to pain med", "Expert says Jackson was likely addicted to pain med", "CNN: Doc: MJ was dependant on painkillers", "Jackson likely addicted to painkiller"...the list goes on and on. I also caught on TV that Michael had gone to Klein's office to get Demerol over 20 times in the course of 3 months...what is going on?? How are Klein's medical records "not supporting" this? If anything, the defense is having a field day with using these medical records as evidence.

First of all you mistated by saying Michael was going to Dr Klein's office to get Demoral. That is not why he went
Michael was going to Dr Kleins office to get proceedures done that required demoral for the painful injections of
Rystyln and Botox in sensitive areas around his eyes nose and mouth neck etc etc ..

20 visit in 3 months = aprox 7 visits a month or averages 2 or 3 vists a week for proceedures
So that amount is decieving made to look exessive which is was not

The doses Dr Klien gave Michael for proceedures was within the guidlines of the AMA
and he did not over dose Michael .. Now they may have been more that some or less
than some other patients get. but Klien stated Michael was very sensitive to pain and
needle phopic so its nothing odd or innapropriate about the amounts he recieved.

The Dr who testified about MJs drug use and possible addiction or dependency in the end
admitted that based on Dr Kleins record he would probably not diagnose MJ as an addict

The media doesnt report that the Expert stated he could not diagnose MJ as an addict based on the
records of meds Klein administered MJ becuase that is not sensational enough to put that in their headlines

I hope that helps
 
ALL of the headlines I'm seeing right now are saying the exact opposite of that. Right now, Google News has around 4000K+ articles that have headlines like - "Addiction Expert: Michael Jackson Was Likely Hooked on Pain Medication?", "Jackson dependent on painkiller, trial expert says?","Jackson 'possibly' addicted to Botox painkillers", "Jackson 'possibly' addicted to Botox painkillers", "Expert says Jackson was likely addicted to pain med", "Expert says Jackson was likely addicted to pain med", "CNN: Doc: MJ was dependant on painkillers", "Jackson likely addicted to painkiller"...the list goes on and on. I also caught on TV that Michael had gone to Klein's office to get Demerol over 20 times in the course of 3 months...what is going on?? How are Klein's medical records "not supporting" this? If anything, the defense is having a field day with using these medical records as evidence.
I watched Waldman's testimony and the headlines that you posted are misleading. What else do you expect though with media headlines about Michael Jackson? Waldman admitted that based on Klein's records that Michael was probably not addicted to Demerol. Medical guidelines are a maximum of 600 mg in 24 hours. The highest Michael received at Klein's office was 375 mg, and he usually received less than that. Michael's visits were less often in June and his dosage was smaller. There is no evidence that Michael was receiving Demerol anywhere else. The prosecution also pointed out that there were times that Michael would go 6 or 7 days without an injection of Demerol. The defense's addiction expert admitted that an addict would start feeling ill 8 to 10 hours after their last dose, and would be in withdrawal after one day. I've never heard of an addict that could go a week without their fix and did not have whatever they were addicted to at home. You really can't rely on media reports to give you an accurate indication of what happened in court. It's best to watch the trial for yourself or if that's not possible watch the trial videos on youtube when you have time.
 
Yall know what WHO CARES what the headlines says (2005 trial anyone)... The JURY knows what was said and who said it, yes they can still look online and on tv at home and see what everybody says. BUT as long THEY know and what the jury heard in court will stay with them until the verdict is read...
 
First of all you mistated by saying Michael was going to Dr Klein's office to get Demoral. That is not why he went
Michael was going to Dr Kleins office to get proceedures done that required demoral for the painful injections of
Rystyln and Botox in sensitive areas around his eyes nose and mouth neck etc etc ..

I know it's quite off topic, but I'm wondering - why did Michael get Botox in his face and other parts of his body injected? Of course it couldn't be for anti-aging treatment like it's often used lol...But is there any information why Klein injected those substances?
 
Botox is being used in cases where people sweat excessively. (hormones, etc, very common also in patients with other autoimmune disorders)
Before Botox people sometimes even had surgeries to remove overactive sweat glands. It's very uncomfortable for people with these kinds of issue to live with excessive sweating.
Botox can help with that, hence the injection of Botox into areas other than the face.
Hope that helps!
 
I know it's quite off topic, but I'm wondering - why did Michael get Botox in his face and other parts of his body injected? Of course it couldn't be for anti-aging treatment like it's often used lol...But is there any information why Klein injected those substances?

His face was to enhance his appearance . Restylyn firms your skin and fiils in fine lines wrinkles etc. Botox will firm and fill lines also. It was used in the groin and arm pits according to the records to block exessive sweating. MJ was preparing for his upcoming concerts and wanted to look his very best. the workd he had done was visibly evident - his nose was much fuller. Dr Klien says he was using several injections to repair the appearance of the nose due to the loss of cartlilage. He said this was much better than Michael having to do any plastic surgery proceedures.
 
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