Murray Trial Day 20. October 28th

[Naturelle]

I sure hope Walgren has contacted Shafer over this weekend to go over this.

 

[Petrarose]

^^Oh he has. Notice that before when we said that Walgren is going to ask XYZ on cross, he did. So if we know what to ask and do, imagine Walgren who is there everyday, paying attention, and has experts to confer with will certainly have all his bases covered.

This is one of the few times when i am wishing for a Monday to come. Good that Walgren will be crushing White on Monday my birthday. That is a good enough gift for me!

 

[smoothlugar]

Both Shaffer and White agreed that the peak concentration for lorazepam would be 2 hours after dose, both also agreed that there was no possibility of oral lorazepam after 8am.

So White's theory of the self rapid bolus of 25mg propofol at about noon does not make sense if the peak concentration was at 10 am, the highest the concentration, the highest the effect.

Or does he mean that he is only using biasely that high concentration to justify an alleged negative reaction to a rapid bolus of 25mg but he is ignoring the fact of the expected effect of such concentration of lorazepam???

And I still don't understand why White gives mg in his diagrams to refer to the propofol concentration in urine and not the unit of the concentration given in AR (ug/ml).

I am sure prosecutors will make everything clearer and if with Shaffer for rebuttal, better.

 

[Milka]

I just watched White's IV demonstration again, because I and a few others in here weren't sure if he turned the saline drip off or not when he started to inject the Propofol. He mixed the Propofol in the syringe with saline (instead of Lidocaine which he didn't have) 1:1 and then started to inject and it dripped into the cup pretty quickly. Flanagan was holding up the saline bag and White pointed out that the saline is still running because it's not necessary to stop it and nobody would ever stop it.

The problem with that is ... Shafer did this (turn off saline) because that is what Murray said he did in the police interview. And White pointed out several things during his testimony that Shafer had said that are not consistent with Murray's police interview. Like others have said, he is selective. If it works for him to say "Shafer got it wrong, that's not what Murray did, because that's not what Murray said", then he uses this excuse. But when he wants to show something himself it's ok for him to assume that Murray lied in that same interview.

 

[wendy2004]

Too many posts to catch up on so I’m taking the last few pages for the points I wanted to comment on. Saw the trial on my phone on Friday but couldn’t log in on here for some reason to comment; couldn’t get to a computer.<o></o>
<o></o><o></o>
<o></o>
Anyway, I agree…White’s testimony was VERY selective and I see the defense finally went there about the lorazepam pills. This is the issue I didn’t want to comment on cuz I wanted to see what time period they were going to pick to make their case and it seems they still can’t decide on one that would fit so they’ve thrown out this scenario of maybe all pills at 7am or some pills at various times. They are going to have a problem with that and I see some of you have already figured out why (the issue of Murray being out of the room for this to happen unbeknownst to him). I will comment more on that as I get thru the posts below.

I also thought it was kinda funny how the defense acted like Shafer was a dumbass for even bringing up certain scenarios for simulation. I think we all pretty much knew Shafer brought those ridiculous scenarios up to head off the defense and their crazy theories. In fact, big red Xs were placed on each ridiculous scenario to indicate it was impossible based on the evidence in this case. Smh

They're trying to steer a "reasonable" middle ground -- say that Murray did some things wrong, took some chances, but that he had the situation under control and nothing would have gone wrong but for the crazy addict celebrity. Defense theory #1254837 is that Murray was using conscious sedation, which he is certified in, to treat insomnia. That is why White emphasizes that there are common off-label uses for medications and defends that Chinese study as "interesting" and worthy of further study. That is why White sticks hard and fast to the idea that Murray gave only 25 mg of propofol at a time, and there couldn't have been a drip. And that is why Michael "has" to be an addict, to introduce a rogue factor into the conscientious doctor's plans and make it all go south. The jury is supposed to focus on the idea of death by crazy happenstance, with poor Murray doing his best to manage a difficult patient and winding up caught in a bad situation. This is meant to engender enough sympathy for the jury to let Murray off or at least to garner the lightest sentence possible if he's convicted.

And the defense can just forget about it. Walgren will flatten them on cross.

<o></o>
100% Spot on! And I think this might answer the question as to WHY Michael would have trusted Murray to administer the drug without a lot of machinery or equipment around. Murray was obviously able to convince Michael that he was capable of doing it. Now, knowing he was actually certified to at least do conscious sedation, I’m 110% certain, he used that to his advantage in gaining Michael’s trust. Remember, in his police interview, he never ONCE claims to tell Michael he has no experience with propofol or felt uncomfortable doing it or that it was an improper way to sleep. When you look at his account of the day diprivan was first brought up to him, Murray’s ONLY issue is “Well, that’s not a medicine you can just call and readily put your hands on. You know, it’s a medicine that you’ll have to order. And I don’t know anyway how I can get that to you.” (pg.50). That’s it. He doesn’t express shock, give a warning that it’s shouldn’t be used for sleep, makes no referral for a sleep doctor. His only concern is about not being able to get his hands on it…which we know he did, eventually. So I agree with everyone that the idea that he received training in administering propofol makes it WORSE for him as it shows he KNEW BETTER. He wasn’t a cardiologist that got suckered and/or pressured into administering a dangerous drug he was unfamiliar with. Murray knew exactly what precautions he should have been taking. The “foreseeable danger” or “foreseeable consequences” level to involuntary manslaughter is met here…big time…imo.
<o></o>
Also, Shafer testified that there’s no such thing as a little anesthesia. No matter how small the dose, certain protocols and precautions must be met. White seemed to try and downplay this as if 25mg was nothing to be concerned about. WTF?! And that’s only if one actually believes Murray gave 25mg and no more. What about 50mg he claimed to be giving on other nights prior along with benzos? Was that a combo not worthy of concern as well? Seriously, WTF?!
<o>
I didn't want this post to be too long so I'm breaking it up; not trying to double post to be annoying. h34r: Plus, it's just taking me a while to get thru each post I want to address and add the proper quotes info., edit, etc. It's going to be another hour before I'm done. </o>

 

[wendy2004]

Re the recording. they implied mj self medicated as murray had sundays off. but the recording was made on a sunday morn and he worked 6 nights a week having s.unday night off. maybe the pros will play it again at the end and ask the jury how mj
could self inject in that sort of state. as u would have to presume murray was making mj like that when he gave benzos etc.

one issue re whites testimony he seemed adament that theres no way i.v loraz would get into the stomach except for if it was taken via a tablet.yet shaffer explained that its vety normal to get in there.so someones lieing. also i feel to understand why the pros havnt brought up the fact that the stomach was ruptured which would put a stop to any talk about how it got there. because with what white has said and with shaffers mess of a loraz graph it was a clever play by the defence to ask what sounds more reasonable ie mj taking pills or murray doing it by shaffers graph.

To someone who takes everything white says literally his testimony was compelling so its now up to walgren to bring up all those inconsistances.

<o></o>
<o></o>
RE: The Sunday issue. This would also explain why Michael would have called Nurse Lee on Father&#8217;s Day&#8230;which was a Sunday. I know quite a few fans were wondering WHY would Michael call Lee if Murray was his doctor during that time period? Perhaps it was becuz it was Murray&#8217;s day off and Murray had already left the house by then. Lee says she went into the emergency room that morning and the defense was trying to pinpoint whether she got the call that morning or afternoon (EST). She couldn&#8217;t seem to remember the exact time. Going by Kai and Nicole&#8217;s testimonies, Murray would leave Carolwood anywhere between 10-11am. So, if the call came anytime after 1pm (EST) Murray had already left. The defense would like to say whatever was happening to MJ had nothing to do with Murray but that&#8217;s not necessarily so. Because he wasn&#8217;t on the property doesn&#8217;t mean something he did previously didn&#8217;t leave lingering effects. <o></o>
<o></o>
RE: Lorazepam in the stomach. Agree. Shafer says it can end up in the stomach even if administered via I.V. It will be interesting to see if and how White will challenge that when confronted by Walgren. <o></o>

So chernoff seems to have an issue with the jury instructions according to tweets from abc. hopefully thats a good thing

and they say the judge said u can have rebbutal and sub rebuttal by the defence and then rebuttal to that by the pros again! so this could go on forever!

<o></o>
The jury instructions must be really hammering home the idea that even if jurors don&#8217;t believe Murray administered the final dose he was responsible for standard of care, environment, etc; that his failures contributed significantly to the cause of death. That&#8217;s all the State really needs the jury to accept in order for them to convict on IVM. <o></o>

The more I think about White's testimony, the more I think it'll be easy for Walgren to rip it to shreds. White testified that to get to the blood levels found at time of death, Michael had to have taken 8 Lorazapam pills (which he also testified is enough to kill someone) then 4/5 hours later, while Murray was out of the room for 2 minutes, he loaded a syringe with 25mg of propofol (no lidacain?) and self injected! How on earth would Michael have been able to do that with all that Lorazapam in him - especially within 2 minutes? It's ludacris!

This is all almost irrelevant anyway - lets not forget that the charge is for gross negligence (not for murder). The negligence hasn't really been disputed by the defence - just the dosage. It's just smoke & mirrors. I just pray the jury is savy enough to see through it all.

<o></o>
<o></o>
Good point. And if the defense is ready to proclaim MJ swallowed those pills as early as 7am or at 8am then they have to also take into account what the effect of having Murray administer that 2mg of Midazolam at 7:30am would have in his blood. <o></o>
<o></o>
They also have to explain how Michael did this with Murray sitting right there in the room with him and WHY would Michael take those pills when even Murray says in his police interview that the benzos did not work ORALLY and that&#8217;s why he decided to use the I.V. version which has a better concentration (p. 108 of interview transcript). <o></o>
<o></o>
Michael also complained that the benzos made him feel like he had a hangover (p. 85) which IS a side effect of benzos. So, if he was so concerned about getting to rehearsal and being functional, he had no reason to pop lorazepam like skittles and no reason to eat them when Murray was there with the more potent I.V. version. <o></o>

I dont think its about arguing the science. it more about showing whites selective usage of murrays words and things like how he lied about the iv set up for eg in order to make shaffers claims look false.

<o></o>
<o></o>
Agree. They may also touch on some science just to get White&#8217;s opinion solidified on the record and then challenge that in their rebuttal case.

They will try to get White to concede to certain facts same as Walgren got Dr. Waldman to concede he probably would not diagnose MJ as an addict based solely on Klein&#8217;s records (even tho that&#8217;s what the defense put him up there to do).

I'm not sure why everyone seemed to be concentrating on the empty 100ml bottle of propofol...the empty bottle was not the only one found. (ie whatever was given doesn't need to add up to exactly 100mls).

From Fleaks' testimony, other partially used bottles were found, so presumably Murray could have used these that day and packed them away at the same time as the empty bottle?

Full and part full bottles found
Propofol:Light blue baby essentials bag : 2 x full 100ml Propofol and 7 x 20 mls, 3 opened with various levels
Black bag: 3 bottles lidocaine - 2 empty 1 half full

<o></o>
<o></o>
And this, to me, is going to prove Murray a liar about why he hid&#8230;errr &#8220;put away&#8221; those vials. He CLAIMS in his interview that Michael &#8220;wanted me to not have nothing hanging around.&#8221; (p.122)<o></o>
<o></o>
So let&#8217;s think about this. If everyday, after giving propofol, he put away everything, at MJ&#8217;s request, that would mean NO lingering items from previous days (syringes, vials, bottles, etc.) should have been left about, right? And one can then presume that EVERYTHING that was found hanging out in the room and collected in those hidden bags (non-prescription meds) MUST have been utilized by Murray from the following night, correct? And if we do that, then that means Murray must have utilized EVERY vial or bottle that was found empty. If that&#8217;s the case, he used a lot more propofol, lidocaine and flumazenil than he has claimed on the night of the 24[SUP]th [/SUP]and into the morning of the 25[SUP]th[/SUP].

<o></o>
Now, let&#8217;s watch Murray&#8217;s defense try to claim he DIDN&#8217;T use and couldn&#8217;t possibly have used ALL those empty bottles/vials on the 24/25[SUP]th[/SUP] and that some of the items came from PREVIOUS nights&#8230;all of which would then impeach their client&#8217;s own words, AGAIN&#8230;the words he used to explain WHY on the afternoon of the 25[SUP]th[/SUP] he decided to clean up and HIDE/CONCEAL&#8230;.err &#8220;put away&#8221; as much as he could from the &#8220;crime scene&#8221;. His patient was dead or darn near dead (if one believes he felt that faint pulse) and suddenly he got the urge to be tidy? <o></o>
<o></o>
Either he collected everything every night as Michael liked or he was as reckless as ever and left old propofol (contaminated after opened for 6 hrs) and other items around the room from day to day. Don&#8217;t forget Murray also claims he suspects MJ was becoming addicted to propofol and was trying to wean him off&#8230;YET he leaves old contaminated half used bottles out in the open? Doesn&#8217;t make sense. He&#8217;s lying about addiction and he&#8217;s lying about his habits of cleaning up. <o></o>
<o></o>
That self-serving interview will continue to chomp away at Murray&#8217;s butt and the only way around it is for his very own lawyers to call him what he is&#8230;a big fat LIAR. I hope Walgren points that out in closing. <o></o>
<o></o>

No, it is even more ludacris! They are saying that MJ self injected 25mg of propofol mixed 1:1 with 25mg of lidacain. Because at the autopsy they found that 50mg of lidacain was administered to MJ that night. (according to the defense, 25 by Murray and 25 by MJ!)

<o></o>
<o></o>

Yeah so not only does mj draw up lidocaine and dip in two mins and inject which takes around 30 secs in itself he does that all in the same sort of state as we heard in the audio. an ontop of that it means mj woke up at the exact moment murray left the room.

And now take this into account: Murray, himself, in his police interview claims it took him nearly 5 minutes alone to get the 25mg of propofol and lidocaine in the syringe (He starts at 10:40am and then infuses for about 3-5 additional minutes making it then 10:50am). So, if it took him all of 5 minutes to draw up that amount, how long can one expect a man with all the loraz they are claiming was in his system (PLUS the 2mg of Midazolam Murray claims he gave at 7:30am) to draw up propofol and lidocaine in less than 2 minutes? Impossible That&#8217;s just ONE problem. Sophie's post below covers more on that.

 

[djbaby]

OK, well Wendy2004 et al, you are doing a great job at rebuttal. I really hope the prosecution does just as well as you, I am pretty confident they well. More my concern/ worry is that the jury will be able to understand all of these points, they require alot of thinking!, and I am concerned that the jury now are quite tired / confused / wanting this to all be over - and that might impact on things ....

 

[wendy2004]

Sophie, your post had a lot of the issues I wanted to address so I will go thru your post point by point.

i knew they would go into urine levels of propofol. defense used free propofol for their model, not metabolites. i wonder if prosecution will now get hold of urine hydrol values for rebuttal. maybe they can show there was a bit more than 25mg of propofolthe good thing about the defence theory is that it doesn't support what murray said in his police interview:

• he claimed he gave an iv drip after the initial bolus
• he claimed he found mj not breathing but with a heartbeat
• also self-injection would have been easier in a drip scenario:

mj could have opened the roller clamp; in a bolus scenario he would have needed to draw up propofol and lidocaine into a syringe

Drip: What’s kinda karmic here is the one scenario that would explain everything…the amount of propofol in the blood, respiratory failure prior to cardiac arrest, and allow Murray the easiest explanation as to how MJ could have accidentally self-administered is the one scenario Murray and his defense continue to deny; not that it would make him less guilty of IVM to admit this now, imo. It would only make worse the idea that he was on the phone and possibly out of the room.

Urine: I kinda dismissed the urine levels after Anderson said they weren’t indicative of much due to the legnth of time the bladder stores residue from previoius days. Shafer seemed to think it might be valuable so I dunno. If the prosecution can get more info from the urine that would be consistent with blood levels that would be great. My hope is Shafer has been working on this since his testimony. He may be able to debunk the defense’s urine tests same as was done about lorazepam amounts in the stomach. Defense is tricky so I believe NOTHING they’ve tested without a second opinion…preferably Shafer’s.

i agree we'll probably hear more about the audio recording. there must have been a reason why they played it during opening.some problems with the high lorazepam levels found at time of death:
• according to the defense scenario mj had high lorazepam concentrations from 8am till time of death
• if mj was awake in spite of these high lorazepam levels he must have had considerable tolerance to lorazepam!
• how had mj developed such tolerance to lorazepam in the first place? lee had treated mj up till march, she had run blood tests, and she never mentioned there were any problems with benzos
• why did murray inject mj with intravenous lorazepam in addition to the oral lorazepam murray had precribed himself??
• if we assume mj was awake at noon, would he have been sufficiently alert to self administer propofol? patients under the influence of lorazepam are groggy

Most of the benzos were prescribed by Murray after Lee did her tests. Lorazepam prescription issued by Murray was filled on April 2, 2009 (empty bottle found in MJ’s bathroom) and then another prescription was filled (issued by Murray) on 4/28/09. However, the 2nd prescription at MJ’s bedside was being underused as prescribed; possibly no longer working for him so he didn’t bother anymore…which makes it HIGHLY unlikely that he’d take them on 6/25, imo. Murray is there with the more potent version in I.V. form and Michael has already complained that it made him feel hungover. IMO, I think the last thing he’d want is to show up at rehearsal in the condition he did on 6/19 and alarm anyone again.

more problems with the defence self-injection theory:large amount of urine in bladder:
• why did mj not try and relieve himself when he was waking up from sedation?
• this is also a problem with the supposed 10:50am bolus, why did mj not relieve himself before murray gave him this bolus?

Good question and THIS is an important question, imo. I’m going to say now what I’ve been holding back this week. I wanted to wait to see if Murray’s ppl were going to address it with their last witness (Dr. White). Now that they’ve got it on record that they can’t pinpoint WHEN Michael could have taken these pills, I’ll talk about it. In opening statements, Chernoff claimed Michael was walking around and doing things that night/morning while he was awake. I believe he tried to indicate it was during all this activity that Michael disappeared from Murray’s sight to go to the bathroom and may have taken the pills then. The problem with that is Murray NEVER says any of this in his interview. Chernoff is offering testimony or information that’s not in evidence. Per Murray, he stayed with Michael the entire time except for those 2 minutes. He NEVER indicates that Michael is out of bed doing anything. Per Murray, Michael is in bed occasionally talking and trying to fall asleep. He has Michael turn off the music and lights at some point and gets him to meditate. Murray NEVER states that Michael leaves his sight to go to the bathroom becuz he doesn’t. Michael doesn’t have to go to the bathroom cuz he’s wearing the condom catheter.Per Murray, Michael relieved himself at 7:30am…and if you look at how he states it, it seems Michael already had urine collecting in the bag from the time he initially got in the bed. Murray empties that urine from the bag and into the jug. And then Michael relieves himself for the 2nd time (6-700 cc’s).

“He urinated then. I made him stand and had him urinate, and he filled a –-he had a bag on him. And that was filled. And I emptied that. Then I filled another portable jug, which he placed another 6, 700 cc’s in of urine. So he urinated… -- because he’s getting the I.V. fluid, you know, which also hydrating him.” (p.32)

This indicates that Michael never physically went to the bathroom that night or morning. Flanagan even referred to the sample in the jug as the 7:30 urine. And this is WHY I believe Murray’s theory of MJ swallowing lorazepam pills without his knowledge WILL NOT WORK. The only way around this is for Murray’s defense team to impeach his statement, for the umpteenth time. They will have to concede that the dutiful doctor who stayed at MJ’s side the whole night rubbing his feet and getting him to meditate was out of the room or somewhere else doing God only knows what. If he was out of the room, where was he at these various times in the morning where Michael could have popped pills he and Murray both know do not work for him in oral form.

position of iv site:
• if mj self administered he must have moved to reach the iv site, but since propofol has such short onset of action murray wouldnt have "found" him in the same position he had left him when he went for his 2min break; why didn't murray mention this in his police interview or to the emts?

Exactly! Murray never indicates that he noticed anything out of the ordinary when he returned to the room and noticed Michael not breathing. He doesn’t state Michael was in a postion any different than when he left him. Also, Alvarez testified that when he and Murray moved Michael’s body to the floor that Murray removed the i.v. tubing from Michael’s leg. So, if we are to believe Michael self-administered, it would mean he had to either move to reach the port on the iv stand OR he had to remove the tubing from the cathether, inject himself and put the tubing back in place...all of this after struggling with getting the propofol and lidocaine in the syringe and under the influence of all these lorazepam pills he’d gobbled down taking effect.

the phone call with sade anding:

• anding overheard mumbling and coughing at shortly before noon
• this implies mj was still alive at this time and murray was at mj's bedside when mj died
• since mj must have died within minutes of the lethal bolus (not ten minutes later!) this places murray at the scene when the bolus was administered: anding was on the phone for several minutes and overheard commotion, coughing, mumblinganother issue prosecution should focus on are the empty flumazenil vials:for what did murray need all this flumazenil??

The flumazenil is definitely interesting. Shafer touched on it that Murray must have known or suspected the benzos were effecting MJ and that’s why he gave it. And when you consider how much he was using, it’s clear Murray was using flumazenil quite frequently. If not only that morning, other mornings as well. Like others, I believe this was to counter the effects the benzos were having on Michael…making him feel hungover.

Then there’s Soundmind’s theory that maybe Murray was using the flumazenil as part of Michael’s waking-up routine to ward off the effects of the benzos he was giving along with the propofol.

Worst case scenario: Murray was having a problem many mornings with those benzos and needed the flumazenil to reverse the effects before Michael awoke. I know some fans have wondered how Murray could have done things perfectly on other nights and then royally screwed up on this one particular night? Well, it’s possible things went wrong many times but we will never know and Michael probably never knew either. All he knews is that he woke up. He would have no way of knowing if Murray almost lost him during the night…and so his trust in Murray continued until the one time he didn't wake up.

 

[Autumn II]

OK, well Wendy2004 et al, you are doing a great job at rebuttal. I really hope the prosecution does just as well as you, I am pretty confident they well. More my concern/ worry is that the jury will be able to understand all of these points, they require alot of thinking!, and I am concerned that the jury now are quite tired / confused / wanting this to all be over - and that might impact on things ....

Yes, I'm sure they are tired (jury) But yet, it's a lot better to have hope, than not? The issues are, did or did not Murray violate the most basic standards of care, or did he not? And, did or did not Michael cause his own death? But yet, there are the undeniable failures of standards of care, by Murray? That is really what the jury has to decide.

I choose to be optimistic, until I'm proven otherwise?

 

[ivy]

^^Oh he has. Notice that before when we said that Walgren is going to ask XYZ on cross, he did. So if we know what to ask and do, imagine Walgren who is there everyday, paying attention, and has experts to confer with will certainly have all his bases covered.

This is one of the few times when i am wishing for a Monday to come. Good that Walgren will be crushing White on Monday my birthday. That is a good enough gift for me!

If they are taking a page from Jose Baez's playbook, they might be following the forums as well.

 

[djbaby]

Yes, I'm sure they are tired (jury) But yet, it's a lot better to have hope, than not? The issues are, did or did not Murray violate the most basic standards of care, or did he not? And, did or did not Michael cause his own death? But yet, there are the undeniable failures of standards of care, by Murray? That is really what the jury has to decide.

I choose to be optimistic, until I'm proven otherwise?

Good idea - I'm going to work on going with that

 

[wendy2004]

Last post for tonight.

I was at work yesterday and couldn't watch any of the testimony. I just went over bouee's summary to edit them and somethings are every interesting.

if I'm not mistaken white doesn't say that Michael filled the syringe himself. so it means that there was a ready propofol +lidocaine syringe by his bedside?

and then Michael taking 8 pills at 7 am (or some pills at 6 and some pills at 8).

well doesn't both of them would require Murray to leave Michael a lot more than he said he did?

<o></o>

He ddn't say anything about who filled the syringe, but when talking about Dr Shafer's multiple self injections he did say that drawing propofol was difficult, so drawing it several times was something he might not be able to do himself

He was specific that the pills were taken before 8 am, around 7 I think he said. He said also that it was not necessarily 8 pills together, could have been 3 pills here, another 2 pills there , etc... so yes that implied that Murray was away ...

During the opening arguments, Michael took them at 10, now it's 7, maybe he took the pills at different times during the night, and Murray has to be out of the room during the self injection, that according to White, happened between 11 30 and 12. Makes you wonder when Murray actually was in the room.

<o></o>
<o></o>
Yes, it would mean Murray must’ve left Michael alone more times than he claimed. And it also means the defense has no real idea IF or WHEN any pills were taken. Michael’s prints not being found on the lorazepam bottle would indicate if any pills were taken, he absorbed them by osmosis. And White saying lorazepam found in the stomach can only come from oral injestion is up for debate since Shafer says it can also get into the stomach even if given by way of I.V. administration. One of them is wrong. <o></o>
<o></o>

From what i remember white never said mj didnt fill the syringes himself. it was just implied assumed that mj filled the syringe cause nothing else was said saying the opposite during his testimony. im sure if the defence wanted to imply one was already filled they would have come right out and said it

<o></o>
<o></o>

But that would have really highlighted murray's negligence and abandonment...imagine leaving a 'loaded' syringe where a patient can reach it and then leaving him alone with it So if they don't say anything they hope it slides under the radar.

I believe he means that it would be physically difficult to draw out of a non vented bottle...you have to push an equal amount of air in corresponding to the amount you want to draw out. It is possible to draw fluid out without doing that but it is more difficult as there is much more resistance, control of syringe is compromised and really if someone doesn't know how to do it, it is difficult. Is this what you're asking?


Edited to ask: I don't understand where the 200mg "in the blood" comes from? Not from tox report..what am I missing? Is it something from Schafer's testimony?

<o></o>
<o></o>
The issue with the syringe is interesting. Either they hope it will slide under the radar or they aren’t sure yet which scenario they want to use; which one would work best for them and make Murray look less like an idiot. Did Michael, under the influence of loraz, go through all these hoops to fill a syringe and manipulate all this medical equipment in a short amount of time, leaving NO indication that he moved? OR did Murray leave a loaded syringe near a patient who he now wants to claim was addicted and desperate? Neither scenario looks good for him.<o></o>
<o></o>
The loaded syringe is a problem for the defense becuz IF Murray left it loaded then 1) Murray has met another level of foreseeable consequences of IVM by leaving it within MJ’s reach and 2) why was it loaded unless he was intending to use MORE propofol. And why would he do that if he claims MJ was asleep after 25mg UNLESS he originally drew up more than 25mg of propofol into the syringe (50mg with lidocaine 1:1 ratio)…like he normally did to put MJ to sleep. Dose and drip? <o></o>
<o></o>
Regardless, I doubt Walgren will let them get away with claiming MJ self-administered without offering where and how MJ could have done this in a way which would leave him virtually in the same spot as Murray left him; nothing out of place…and with no fingerprints on the syringe? <o></o>
<o></o>
If Murray saw anything that would have led him to believe Michael got ahold of propofol and self-administered he did not mention it in his interview. He did not indicate anything was out of the ordinary except that Michael was mysteriously not breathing. If tubing was out of MJ’s leg or a syringe was in the port that shouldn’t have been there, he said nothing. If he thought someone had been in the room and did something while he was out of the room, he said nothing. <o></o>
<o></o>

you mean blood levels? 2.6 ug/ml in femoral blood

the amount given at noon: 25mg according to the defense
another 25mg at 10:50am according to the defense

<o></o>
So, it seems the defense HAS officially gone back to the 10:40 – 10:50am timeline after shifting it an hour later to cover Murray being on the phone. <o></o>
<o></o>
Looks like we have to go back to the call and email list to determine what Murray was doing around 10:40 – 10:50am. When the timeline was shifted to 11:50am all our theories and questions shifted as well. We now have to go back if Murray claims his propofol injection was at the earlier time.<o></o>
<o></o>

maybe they can still get the metabolite for rebuttal. i have seen propofol death case reports where it was used to estimate the amount of propofol administered. i don't know what is the better method to estimate the amount, to use free propofol or the propofol glucoronide. not all metabolites can be quantified, some references say the propofol glucoronide makes about 50% of all metabolites, this could possibly be argued. but the percentage of free propofol can possibly be argued as well.

edit: sorry, needed to look at your post again. i think they only got the free propofol. not the metabolite. defense based their model on the free propofol. that was my understanding.


thanks, yes you are right, lorazepam does not redistribute.


yes, that's a clear indication murray was aware of a large amount of lorazepam.
but i'm also talking of the empty flumazenil vials found in his hidden bags. it was not the first time he had administered flumazenil

<o></o>
<o></o>
Agree. I hope we get more info about the urine and this “free propofol” explanation on cross or rebuttal. And yes, the empty flumazenil vials means Murray was using it a lot more than just on 6/25.

It indeed is, it shows that Murray had to use Flumazenil before, according to Shafer it reverts the effects of Benzodiazepine's, so him using Flumazenil before does indicate that Murray was giving larger/dangerous /possibly even lethal amounts of lorazepam before June 25. I hope Walgren's looked into this matter or will look into this matter. No matter how short Murray's actual jailtime will be, he should not be getting away. Walgren needs to make sure Murray gets convicted.

<o></o>
<o></o>
Agree.

One last thing, it was interesting to hear White downplay his own work by saying how each person is different so the models (which Shafer came up with based on White’s data) aren’t necessarily fixed. Well, if the models mean nothing, why do they come with the packaging? :blink: It’s a starting point to say what SHOULD be done and offers a variable range for what is KNOWN to be most harmful and least harmful depending on the person. There IS a range that’s meant to be guide. And that guide is based on FACTUAL data and research. To act like, well, it doesn’t REALLY mean much (becuz it’s being used against Murray), is borderline irresponsible. He seriusly needs to be careful about crossing the line in hopes of helping the defense. It seems he’s trying to toe the line of what’s proper while STILL offering an opinion in Murray’s favor. However, if he isn’t careful, he’s going to cross over to the darkside and tarnish his credibility. We will see just how far Dr. White is willing to go when Walgren cross examines him. <o></o>

 

[Ramona122003]

Last post for tonight.

<o></o>

<o></o>
<o></o>
Yes, it would mean Murray must&#8217;ve left Michael alone more times than he claimed. And it also means the defense has no real idea IF or WHEN any pills were taken. Michael&#8217;s prints not being found on the lorazepam bottle would indicate if any pills were taken, he absorbed them by osmosis. And White saying lorazepam found in the stomach can only come from oral injestion is up for debate since Shafer says it can also get into the stomach even if given by way of I.V. administration. One of them is wrong. <o></o>
<o></o>
<o></o>
<o></o>
<o></o>
<o></o>
The issue with the syringe is interesting. Either they hope it will slide under the radar or they aren&#8217;t sure yet which scenario they want to use; which one would work best for them and make Murray look less like an idiot. Did Michael, under the influence of loraz, go through all these hoops to fill a syringe and manipulate all this medical equipment in a short amount of time, leaving NO indication that he moved? OR did Murray leave a loaded syringe near a patient who he now wants to claim was addicted and desperate? Neither scenario looks good for him.<o></o>
<o></o>
The loaded syringe is a problem for the defense becuz IF Murray left it loaded then 1) Murray has met another level of foreseeable consequences of IVM by leaving it within MJ&#8217;s reach and 2) why was it loaded unless he was intending to use MORE propofol. And why would he do that if he claims MJ was asleep after 25mg UNLESS he originally drew up more than 25mg of propofol into the syringe (50mg with lidocaine 1:1 ratio)&#8230;like he normally did to put MJ to sleep. Dose and drip? <o></o>
<o></o>
Regardless, I doubt Walgren will let them get away with claiming MJ self-administered without offering where and how MJ could have done this in a way which would leave him virtually in the same spot as Murray left him; nothing out of place&#8230;and with no fingerprints on the syringe? <o></o>
<o></o>
If Murray saw anything that would have led him to believe Michael got ahold of propofol and self-administered he did not mention it in his interview. He did not indicate anything was out of the ordinary except that Michael was mysteriously not breathing. If tubing was out of MJ&#8217;s leg or a syringe was in the port that shouldn&#8217;t have been there, he said nothing. If he thought someone had been in the room and did something while he was out of the room, he said nothing. <o></o>
<o></o>


<o></o>
So, it seems the defense HAS officially gone back to the 10:40 &#8211; 10:50am timeline after shifting it an hour later to cover Murray being on the phone. <o></o>
<o></o>
Looks like we have to go back to the call and email list to determine what Murray was doing around 10:40 &#8211; 10:50am. When the timeline was shifted to 11:50am all our theories and questions shifted as well. We now have to go back if Murray claims his propofol injection was at the earlier time.<o></o>
<o></o>
<o></o>
<o></o>
Agree. I hope we get more info about the urine and this &#8220;free propofol&#8221; explanation on cross or rebuttal. And yes, the empty flumazenil vials means Murray was using it a lot more than just on 6/25.

<o></o>
<o></o>
Agree.

One last thing, it was interesting to hear White downplay his own work by saying how each person is different so the models (which Shafer came up with based on White&#8217;s data) aren&#8217;t necessarily fixed. Well, if the models mean nothing, why do they come with the packaging? :blink: It&#8217;s a starting point to say what SHOULD be done and offers a variable range for what is KNOWN to be most harmful and least harmful depending on the person. There IS a range that&#8217;s meant to be guide. And that guide is based on FACTUAL data and research. To act like, well, it doesn&#8217;t REALLY mean much (becuz it&#8217;s being used against Murray), is borderline irresponsible. He seriusly needs to be careful about crossing the line in hopes of helping the defense. It seems he&#8217;s trying to toe the line of what&#8217;s proper while STILL offering an opinion in Murray&#8217;s favor. However, if he isn&#8217;t careful, he&#8217;s going to cross over to the darkside and tarnish his credibility. We will see just how far Dr. White is willing to go when Walgren cross examines him. <o></o>

In all fairness to White on this point, he's right that everyone is different. Models can only the average or the most likely outcome. I think even Shaffer used terms like 50% to most. Since we don't know exactly how Michael's body works, it's impossible to get an exact number on how propofol or the lopz would had effected him.

With that said, however, White also can't just dismiss the findings without offering anything in return. How does White know that 25mg from Michael self-injecting would get his numbers that high? He also didn't say either way if Michael's heart was still beating or not when Michael took in the fatal amount. If he said Michael's heart was still beating, that propofol level would had dropped like a rock, regardless of the starting amount. If he says Michael's heart stopped, then Murray lied when he claimed he found Michael with a pulse. Given that he seems to take Murray on his word several times throughout his testimony, this will become a problem since it brings into question why did he believe Murray about the drug amount he gave and not given an infusion that day, but he obviously call Murray a liar when he said Michael had a pulse after he check the pulse oximeter. He also have to call Murrray a liar for only being out of the room for two minutes. He also has to explain when Michael took the Lopz since Murray was with him the entire time until around 10 to 11am and why didn't Murray noticed anything different about Michael.

In short, White has allot of explaining to do because he didn't connect the dotes.

 

[sophie]

Then there&#8217;s Soundmind&#8217;s theory that maybe Murray was using the flumazenil as part of Michael&#8217;s waking-up routine to ward off the effects of the benzos he was giving along with the propofol.

Worst case scenario: Murray was having a problem many mornings with those benzos and needed the flumazenil to reverse the effects before Michael awoke. I know some fans have wondered how Murray could have done things perfectly on other nights and then royally screwed up on this one particular night? Well, it&#8217;s possible things went wrong many times but we will never know and Michael probably never knew either. All he knews is that he woke up. He would have no way of knowing if Murray almost lost him during the night&#8230;and so his trust in Murray continued until the one time he didn't wake up.

i wrote some posts about this in another thread:
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...6-Discussion?p=3503116&viewfull=1#post3503116
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...6-Discussion?p=3504330&viewfull=1#post3504330

i was wondering why murray would give propofol at noon. although mj had still high levels of lorazepam in his blood. why at noon? and wouldn't mj have been at least groggy from the lorazepam? why give propofol in such a situation?

flumazenil was another drug found in the syringe which was still in the y-connector. and several flumazenil vials were found. one near the bed, and others in the hidden bags, some vials were empty. why did murray need so much flumazenil?

i think murray could have used flumazenil to wake mj up fast, so that he wouldn't feel groggy for hours. but murray probably wouldn't risk to wake mj up with flumazenil when he was still fully sedated, unless is was an emergency.

one problem with flumazenil is resedation. another problem is risk of seizure after high doses of lorazepam in patients with tolerance to lorazepam. if he wanted to use flumazenil as a way to wake mj up quickly, i think he had to wait until mj was coming out of sedation on his own.

this could be the reason why on june 25 it was so late in the morning and mj was still not up!

murray needed to wait until he could give the flumazenil.

murray probably wouldn't give the flumazenil on its own; awakening can be rough, but murray wanted mj to wake up smoothly, it should feel similar to waking up from propofol sedation.

he could have done something similar as in a "rapid detox": he gave flumazenil to counter the lorazepam. and he gave propofol to cover the timeframe until flumazenil had adversed the benzdiazepine effect to make sure mj would be comfortable when he woke up.

on june 25, maybe mj eventually woke up at shortly before noon. but murray was busy on his phone and realized too late that mj was trying to get up. murray hastened to the bedside and gave a propofol bolus before he gave the flumazenil. but he rushed the bolus and mj stopped breathing.
other scenario: mj didn't wake up from the lorazepam. murray realized at noon something was wrong, maybe mj's oxygen levels had gone down. he gave flumazenil as an emergency to revert the benzo effect. mj woke up, but it was rough. instead of calling 911 to get mj to the hospital, murray then gave a propofol bolus! to win time and bc he thought he could solve the crisis on his own. he rushed the bolus and mj stopped breathing.


it's a theory, but it would explain why murray gave propofol at noon, and why he gave it in spite of high lorazepam blood levels.

 

[bouee]

Drip: What&#8217;s kinda karmic here is the one scenario that would explain everything&#8230;the amount of propofol in the blood, respiratory failure prior to cardiac arrest, and allow Murray the easiest explanation as to how MJ could have accidentally self-administered is the one scenario Murray and his defense continue to deny; not that it would make him less guilty of IVM to admit this now, imo. It would only make worse the idea that he was on the phone and possibly out of the room.

.

The defense really needs to go by the injection theory, they don't really have a choice : For an infusion, there should have been a pump, and with a pump, all that Michael could have done is start it. He couldn't have set it himself. So he would have started it, but since it would have been set to a very low rate, he probably wouldn't have been able to hurt himself.
So self administration by unclamping the tube wouldn't work for Murray, because he was the one who set up a dangerous system, and left the room.

Injections cover Murray's phone calls or leaving the room.

I think that's why they stick to the crazy self injection theory, they don't have anything else

 

[MIST]

Murray ordered the drugs and took them to the house.
When I hear the recording of Michael affected by drugs I think Michael knew what he wanted, but he wasn´t able to fill a syringe and self-inject.
I think he would be clumsy.
In that state I think it would be hard for him to walk around in the room ,taking pills,and it´s impossible to do it in those few minutes Murray said he was away and without leaving fingerprints.
But Murray should never have left his patient for one second especially when he said Michael was addicted. or close to addicted.
Murray left Michael a while after he gave him an injection with propofol.
The effect shouldn´t be long, but Michael didn´t wake up.
We´ve heard from an anesthetist that you should be really worried if a patient didn´t wake up when he´s supposed to, but Murray left Michael alone

And all these things Murray did after he found Michael not breathing
I can´t imagine that the jury wouldn´t find Murray guilty for what he´s accused of despiteof how convincing dr White might be

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re the phone calls. murray made a 22min call if i remember right from 10.30-10.52. have the times on my p.c. i think this was also the time he was having two convos at the same time on two diff phones.

 

[OnirMJ]

The defense keep saying that the propofol bottle run out exactly when MJ died. But we saw in dr. Shafer presentation that almost half bottle can go into the IV tubing, because Murray was using wide tube. Maybe MJ didn't recieve all 1000 mg (100 mL). Maybe he recieved just part of it and the rest was in IV tubing that Murray hide and remove from the scene. MJ could died at any time during that drip. That could explain why is propofol level in the urine lower.

 

[bouee]

Just a few thoughts , comparing Dr White's and DR Shafer's testimonies

About variability :

they both said the same thing. Dr Shafer said that his models were an average (shown on his graphs with a line), he said that's were 50% of the patients would be, and explained the ranges. Some patients will need half the usual dose, others will need the double of the usual dose, to reach the same effect.

I don't know why the defense spent so much time about that : it's a way of saying that Michael didn't react exactly as the models showed, But Dr Shafer had already said that, and since you can't predict a patient's reaction, it allows Walgren to ask White about the safety equipment that's needed for sedation.

About cardiovascular effects :

I still don't understand that, and that's he only thing that would worry me a little (not for the verdict, it's just I want it to be clear that Michael did not self inject).

Chernoff asked Dr Shafer several times about cardiac arrest in his cross. First indirectly, he asked twice about the dangers of rapid infusion. The first time Dr Shafer said the danger was apnea. The second time Chernoff said "one of the dangers of rapid infusion is apnea", Dr Shafer agreed. Then later on he asked Dr Shafer if his analysis was based on repiratory arrest, and didn't take into account cardiac arrest , Dr Shafer agreed.


Dr White said that the combination of lorazepam + 25mg propofol given too fast would have very adverse effects, possibly lethal, but didn't explain it further.

Flanagan didn't ask Dr White anything about cardiac arrest. I don't understand that. He didn't ask anything to contradict the 10mn between respiratory arrest and cardiac arrest. So I guess Walgren won't have to adress that in his cross ? Meaning Dr Shafer's theory still stands, completely ruling out self injection ? From the defense's point of view, I don't understand, but I guess it's good news for us, is it ? I don't know what to think about that.

During his video demonstration about how to safely give propofol, Dr Shafer did mention blood pressure dropping with propofol, he said it was no big deal, because it's very easily treated with hydration and epinephrine. That's if you measure blood pressure, and we know that Murray didn't.
He also mentionned cardiac arrest, saying that it would be treated until the problem that caused the cardiac arrest was fixed, but he didn't say what could cause a cardiac arrest.


About safety and mild sedation

Dr White is saying that 25mg propofol over 3 to 5 mn, was mild sedation, even with 4 mg lorazepam and midazolam as CM said he gave. Many prosecution doctors said they didn't understand such a low dose, since Michael would have woken up in 10mn.
Both Dr Shafer and White said they agreed about the 10mn, but couldn't say for sure it would have happened here, because of the benzos.

Dr Shafer said there's no such thing as "safe" mild sedation (ie without equipment), since you don't know how the patient will react. Dr White spent a great deal of time saying you couldn't predict a patient's reaction.

Dr Shafer said 25 mg was the limit where a patient can go into apnea, and you have to assume that your patient is in the lowest limit.

Dr Shafer said since benzodiazepines were given, possibly in large doses for 80 days, and propofol was possibly given for 80 days (he said that Murray bought 130 100ml bottles, suggesting at least a 100ml per night). Michael was exhausted, dehydrated, maybe dependant and in withdrawal from the possibly huge amounts of benzos Murray had been giving him for 2 months, all that made the risk even higher.

Flumazenil and benzos

Dr Shafer also said that mixing lorazepam and midazolam made no sense, since they do the same thing, the only difference is the time they stay in the system. To him it showed that Murray did not understand what he was giving. Dr Shafer also said that using Flumazenil was suspicious, it could mean that Murray knew that there were more benzos than what he said he gave. I think at this point, Murray "reacted" a bit strongly in court when Dr Shafer mentionned flumazenil (the F Word).

Urine concentration :

Dr White based his analysis upon free propofol, Dr Shafer said he needed the metabolite, and that was not measured. Dr Shafer said he would need a model, and didn't know how much of the mtabolite would go in the urine, and how much would go in the bile.
Anderson said he wouldn't use urine, it only gives a history, possibly over several days, it was not precise enough.

I'm not in the medical field, but Dr Shafer's answer sounds more logical to me since propofol metabolises very quickly.



Lorazepam in the stomach :

De White said that the mere fact that there was free lorazepam in the stomach showed that there was oral consumption, even if it was a vert small quantity

no one has mentionned the transmural hemorrhage, I hope it's a strategy on Walgren's part, and that he will mention it.

Anderson mentionned ion trapping as a possible explanation, but he wasn't sure if lorazepam was subject to ion trapping. The question was asked by Flanagan, so I would assume that Lorazepam is not subject to ion trapping (yes, I know, Flanagan sometimes asks questions that make him sounds like he works for the prosecution, so you never know )

Both Dr White and Shafer said lorazepam was not subject to post mortem redistribution, but I think Dr Shafer said it redistributed to other tissues before death.


And of course, the many changes in the times when Michael supposedly ate lorazepam (10 am during the opening statement, then 7am, then maybe a few pills earlier or later) , and then self injected, that makes you wonder when Murray actually was in the room.
Oh yes, Michael was walking around, with an IV and a condom catheter. He went to his bathroom to take pills behind Murray's back, but peed in a bag in the second bedroom, where Murray was. It doesn' make sense, and Murray never mentionned in his interview that Michael was so wide awake he was walking around the house.

Then Michael self injected, he drew propofol from the bottles, meaning he had to push and pull the plunger at least twice , mixed propofol and lidocaine, left no finger prints, and fell back in the same position as Murray left him, since Murray didn't say he noticed Michael had moved or was in a strange position when he came back.

:no: the defense doesn't make sense... or I should say :yes: , it doesn't sound bad for us

 

[bouee]

The defense keep saying that the propofol bottle run out exactly when MJ died. But we saw in dr. Shafer presentation that almost half bottle can go into the IV tubing, because Murray was using wide tube. Maybe MJ didn't recieve all 1000 mg (100 mL). Maybe he recieved just part of it and the rest was in IV tubing that Murray hide and remove from the scene. MJ could died at any time during that drip. That could explain why is propofol level in the urine lower.

Exactly, I forgot about that. Dr Shafer's point was to say that propofol was still running when Michael died. Dr Shafer gave 2 possible scenarios for that to happen (Multiple injections by Murray, or infusion) . I don't think it really matters when the infusion started, or if the bottle was empty, his point was it was still running when Michael stopped breathing, and kept running after he stopped breathing.

 

[8701girl]

So was this meant to be the last week of trial or am i wrong?

 

[smoothlugar]

Shafer did this (turn off saline) because that is what Murray said he did in the police interview. And White pointed out several things during his testimony that Shafer had said that are not consistent with Murray's police interview. Like others have said, he is selective. If it works for him to say "Shafer got it wrong, that's not what Murray did, because that's not what Murray said", then he uses this excuse. But when he wants to show something himself it's ok for him to assume that Murray lied in that same interview.

The turning off of the saline solution was mentioned by Murray to refer to his administration of lorazepam...

On page 23, lines 6-8 & 13-15 that "turning- off" is mentioned in the transcript.

 

[sophie]

Dr Shafer also said that mixing lorazepam and midazolam made no sense, since they do the same thing, the only difference is the time they stay in the system.

it could make sense if propofol was used for induction, and lorazepam was used for maintaining sedation. midazolam could have been used to smooth out the sedation curve betwen propofol and lorazepam: midazolam has rapid onset (almost as rapid as propofol), but sedation lasts longer, for about half an hour. lorazepam takes much longer to peak than midazolam, about 20min.

- murray could have given propofol to induce sedation (onset immediate, lasts for about 10-15min)
- follow it up by midazolam (rapid onset, lasts for about 30min)
- then give lorazepam (peaks in about 15-20min)

 

[smoothlugar]

Lorazepam in the stomach :

De White said that the mere fact that there was free lorazepam in the stomach showed that there was oral consumption, even if it was a vert small quantity

The thing is that defense test did not differenciate between free lorazepam and its metabollite, Dr. Shaffer said the metabollite is expected in the stomach but that Pacific Tox. converted the lorazepam glucoronide to lorazepam, so there's no way to know if there was originally free lorazepam or if all the lorazepam came from IV administration.
(day 14, part 2, from around min 19)

 

[bouee]

yes, but the the prosecution had another test done by Anderson, they found a very small amount of free lorazepam (1/250th pf a 2mg pill). Based on that Dr Shafer said that Michael couldn't have swallowed lorazepam at least in the 4 hours prior to his death. That'w why the defense had to change the time from 10am to before 8am.

The defense had another test done , they found an even lower amount of free lorazepam (1/333rd of a 2mg pill)
, so there was free lorazepam in the stomach

 

[ivy]

Just a few thoughts , comparing Dr White's and DR Shafer's testimonies

perfect post

Dr Shafer said there's no such thing as "safe" mild sedation (ie without equipment), since you don't know how the patient will react. Dr White spent a great deal of time saying you couldn't predict a patient's reaction.

Dr Shafer said 25 mg was the limit where a patient can go into apnea, and you have to assume that your patient is in the lowest limit.

I believe Shafer is right. About a month ago I got a operation done on my hand and I was given anesthesia. As I was afraid the doctor told me I would be getting the lowest amount possible, I would be in twilight sleep and it would be short (40 minutes operation and they told me me I would be spending the last 10-15 minutes waking up). Still I was in a hospital, hooked up on machines with a doctor and a nurse. I personally do not believe that there's a safe dose that doesn't require monitoring.

:no: the defense doesn't make sense... or I should say :yes: , it doesn't sound bad for us

Monday is going to make it a lot more clear I believe

 

[Milka]

I didn't see this mentioned - Dr. White said that 40 mg Lorazepam (and I think it would be pretty much the same for 36 mg) are lethal or would at least put someone in a coma for a couple of hours. Just saying, because people didn't get why I and a few other people got so upset about the 40 mg during Shafer's testimony. And were wondering why a doctor would give a dose that could kill someone and THEN on top of that gives Propofol.

I know it's just a model, but you need models to explain the high Lorazepam concentration, Murray would never tell anyone what he actually did. And if you don't think that Michael took 8 pills at once about 4 hours before his death, Murray must have given it to him. And then the model probably isn't too far from the truth. The 2 Lorazepam bottles they found, one was empty, in the other on were 9 1/2 pills, which suggests he didn't take many at all (I think they were both prescribed in the last 2 - 3 months before his death, it was 30 pills each), and the half of a tablet even suggests he might have only taken half doses instead of one pill. Why would someone with that "habit" suddenly take 8 at once?

 

[ivy]

I didn't see this mentioned - Dr. White said that 40 mg Lorazepam (and I think it would be pretty much the same for 36 mg) are lethal or would at least put someone in a coma for a couple of hours. Just saying, because people didn't get why I and a few other people got so upset about the 40 mg during Shafer's testimony. And were wondering why a doctor would give a dose that could kill someone and THEN on top of that gives Propofol.

I know it's just a model, but you need models to explain the high Lorazepam concentration, Murray would never tell anyone what he actually did. And if you don't think that Michael took 8 pills at once about 4 hours before his death, Murray must have given it to him. And then the model probably isn't too far from the truth. The 2 Lorazepam bottles they found, one was empty, in the other on were 9 1/2 pills, which suggests he didn't take many at all (I think they were both prescribed in the last 2 - 3 months before his death, it was 30 pills each), and the half of a tablet even suggests he might have only taken half doses instead of one pill. Why would someone with that "habit" suddenly take 8 at once?

one thing I agree with White is that Shafer didn't account for the residual levels of Lorazepam. remember we mentioned it before at least from Murray's statement MJ was given Lorazepam the 2 days before and with what 12-16 hours half life it should be in his system. So probably needed less than 40 mg given.

Then Shafer's simulation was based on MJ coming home and wanting to sleep. Shafer being the rational person came up with a scenario that would give MJ 2 mg and then assume he couldn't sleep and give him another 2 mg and another and another.

He probably couldn't phantom Murray giving him a lot higher dose all together at a later time. White's scenario achieves the same levels with 16mg at a later time. and with Murray rushing to Flumanezil, I think Murray knew he had given MJ too much Lorazepam.

edited to add: also both Lee and Murray's statement says that Michael said nothing works , only thing that works is Propofol. With that reality I think it's quite unlikely that he would even consider taking Lorazepam on his own. In his mind those things didn't work.

 

[classic]

. . .
edited to add: also both Lee and Murray's statement says that Michael said nothing works , only thing that works is Propofol. With that reality I think it's quite unlikely that he would even consider taking Lorazepam on his own. In his mind those things didn't work.

This is a very good point.

 

[Milka]

one thing I agree with White is that Shafer didn't account for the residual levels of Lorazepam. remember we mentioned it before at least from Murray's statement MJ was given Lorazepam the 2 days before and with what 12-16 hours half life it should be in his system. So probably needed less than 40 mg given.

The problem with that is that we don't know how much he was given the days before. I'll watch that part of Shafer's testimony again later, but the thing is, if he didn't give him "too much" in the days before, there won't be much left. I'd say, if you put in those levels, it would still just be a rather small part of the concentration. The other thing is ... I don't believe one word that Murray said in his interview. There might have been a few things in there that were true, but it's impossible to tell which ones. Maybe it's all lies, he was trying to cover his behind. But he knew he had to mention Valium, Lorazepam, Midazolam and Propofol, because he knew they'd find this in his system. He could play a bit with the amounts and the times he gave them though.

Then Shafer's simulation was based on MJ coming home and wanting to sleep. Shafer being the rational person came up with a scenario that would give MJ 2 mg and then assume he couldn't sleep and give him another 2 mg and another and another.

Maybe ... but at some point, even if Michael said nothing is working, it has to work. At a certain dose it has to do something.

He probably couldn't phantom Murray giving him a lot higher dose all together at a later time. White's scenario achieves the same levels with 16mg at a later time. and with Murray rushing to Flumanezil, I think Murray knew he had given MJ too much Lorazepam.

That's also what I would think, he gave him a certain very high amount at some time, maybe even in 2 doses like he said in his interview, but not at the times he said in his interview. Or if he gave him very high amounts at the times he mentioned in the interview (I think it was 2 am and 5 am), he probably gave him even more then. And yes, the Flumazenil to me is proof of that. There is also the 40 mg vial that was empty. It must have gone somewhere, and if you don't believe Murray injected himself with some of it, it must have gone into Michael. I really do believe that the 40 mg are not too far from the truth.

edited to add: also both Lee and Murray's statement says that Michael said nothing works , only thing that works is Propofol. With that reality I think it's quite unlikely that he would even consider taking Lorazepam on his own. In his mind those things didn't work.

Yes ... and he also knew he had a doctor there, a doctor he knew was willing to even give him Propofol, even with Murray probably not being in the room the entire night and morning, he was close enough, all Michael had to do was ask. And then there is the thing that one of the experts said, I don't remember who, that if you give regular infusions of a certain med to someone, in this case Lorazepam, you would never prescribe this to the person in pill form as well, as you as the doctor would never know if the person had already taken a pill in the hours before you give an infusion. You'd risk giving him too much with that. I consider this a deviation from the standard of care as well.

P.S. I believe the reason why he said he usually gave 50 mg (and don't forget, he said as a bolus to induce, and then a drip, so he never said in the interview how much he actually gave him every night, he just mentioned the bolus and then kept it vague with the drip and no amount) and on this day he said he only gave 25 mg (not that I ever believed that and the science says it's wrong too) was because he knew they'd find quite a high amount of Lorazepam and he had to keep things sounding "safe" in the interview.