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Murray Trial Day 21, October 31st - Discussion

Wow did i just read it right??! Cm will maybe testify? And white isnt the last witness, this ordille person will??????

and shafer is coming back for redirect? So prob another full week of trial???
 
Guys thanks for all the recaps, I couldn't stay awake last night for the second part of the hearing and your comments helped to catch up. I hope the testimonies will end today... I am so restless, I just want to know the verdict already...
 
If all the other medical professionals slammed Murray's judgment and standard of care, that has got to weigh in for the jurors when thinking credibility of witnesses; some of these professionals weren't prosecution experts but simply people in the medical field doing their jobs (paramedics, emergency staff).

I know this case rests on the science of it all and other technical things, such as the phone calls, etc. But, I hope that the jurors feel a sense of this case being more than a case of "did the doctor fail his celebrity client." This was about a man, a patient and most importantly a father, looking for help with a medical problem and just may have been to the point of desperation for that help (and unfortunately thought he had found it). To me that would make it easier for the jury to convict.

But, hats off to this prosecution for going the mile in this trial. They put a lot of work into this and I hope that their efforts pay off in court.
 
classic said:
If all the other medical professionals slammed Murray's judgment and standard of care, that has got to weigh in for the jurors when thinking credibility of witnesses; some of these professionals weren't prosecution experts but simply people in the medical field doing their jobs (paramedics, emergency staff).

I know this case rests on the science of it all and other technical things, such as the phone calls, etc. But, I hope that the jurors feel a sense of this case being more than a case of "did the doctor fail his celebrity client." This was about a man, a patient and most importantly a father, looking for help with a medical problem and just may have been to the point of desperation for that help (and unfortunately thought he had found it). To me that would make it easier for the jury to convict.

But, hats off to this prosecution for going the mile in this trial. They put a lot of work into this and I hope that their efforts pay off in court.
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White has several big things going against him.

First being, he's being paid by the defense. Shaffer is in many ways his equal and he wasn't paid or did he wanted to be paid for his services for moral reasons. Now, some say that could make Shaffer bias against Murray, but White has been charging per day and is like a counselor to the defense. All their theories are based on his words, not multiple people like the DA. So even if Shaffer has it in for Murray, White has more of an investment in helping Murray.

Second, even if we say that all Shaffer had it in for Murray, he still did models to show all possblities including self-injecting. White had freely admitted that all his theories and ideas have been aim to put blame exclusively on Michael. He never even consider anything Murray did as wrong.

Third, all the other experts gave their take and answered all the defense's questions without given the round away. Although some made snarky remarks to Murray and his defense. White not only tried to downplay everything the DA said, from the standard of care, to the 911, to given medical information, to keeping charts, but he also tried to downplay his own words. He tried to hand wave it and it made him look like either a fool or an asshole.

Fourth, White tried to cheat. All the other experts used Murray's police interview, but White tried to insert things that Murray told him. He believes Murray's words despite how outrages or unlikely that possibility is. Like Michael freely walking around in the hours before his death with an IV and a condom catheter on. Really, why would a doctor believe this? Not only that, Michael walked so freely that he went into his room and managed to take pills without Murray noticing anything and showing no ill effects. I mean, really? Then, Murray drew 50mg, for some reason, and only gave 25mg leaving the needle within Michael's range. Why did he draw 50mg to begin with if he was only going to use half? Next, he said Murray was in the hallway so he could peak in and check on Michael. At at the same time, however, Michael woke up, got out of bed, found the needle that was somewhere in the room, went back to bed, laid back down, and self-injected himself, and died. All without getting Murray's attention where he could peak his head in and see what was going on. Also he maintains Murray was trying to wean Michael off of propofol. As someone who is called the 'Father of Propofol' he should know that since propofol isn't physical addicted, there was no need to wean Michael. If it was a mental depended, he should had just stopped given it all together and showed Michael better ways to deal with his sleep problems. If I can see the problems here, than an expert like White should too.

Finally, White comes off as amoral by his own slip of the tongue, which I'm sure the juries couldn't miss. When the DA ask if White would give propofol for any price, he said no because it wasn't worth his time. It wasn't for moral reasons, the safety of the patient, or the general dangers, but time was his main reason. So if it was worth his time, would he had done such amoral act? White tried to walk this back, but he let the cat out of the bag and you could see the DA was stun.
 
agree ramona but we just dont know what the jury things to this point.

I also wanted to know why walgren hasnt adressed the fact michael was allowing cm to make calles and walk away from him if he was walking around so freely! Which i dont believe. Michael wouldnt have said go ahead cm i pay you to monitor me but he feel free to call all the time.
Also why dont we know yet why shafer hadnt had the urine levels, and white had?

Also i hope the jury will see what a lame expert white is by all his excuses, its more then ridiculus. Im not the one making the model, i just got it last night, im not expert in that, judge wont allow me. etc etc etc

We all feel how stupid he is, and therefor also the defense. but i hope the jury will too. It would be amazing and great if CM testifued! I cant wait for that to happen, doubt it would but he would be great! We then get to hear his side and torn apart by walgren! Therefor i dont think he will take the stand..

Also the redirect i hope walgren takes it! We need shafer back, making an ass of white and his model! and a explaination why he hadnt had the urine samples, maybe he has a new model now, now the samples are there??
 
chanel05 said:
I have a question... wasn't mj receiving the propofol in Muarrys room and wasn't the lorazepam found in the bathroom of MJs room
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The bottle of lorazepam found in the bathroom was empty, it had no cap. It looks like it was discarded. If I remember well, there were no benzos in the bathroom , the 3 bottles were empty, there were only eye drops and things like that.

The bottles of medication with pills still in them were in the second bedroom, the one where Murray was "treating" Michael, on the nightstand, right next to Michael, very easy for Murray to see (or hear) if they were in the same room.

If Michael had planned on taking stuff behind Murray's back , he could have left some in his personal bedroom. He was not a well organised "addict" IMO...

The defense doesn't even need to say he was walking around .... the pills were right next to Michael. But it would make Murray look bad , because that would be too obvious Murray was away, so they have Michael walking around with an IV, condom catheter, etc... did that IV pole have wheels, anyone remembers from the picture ?

So the latest defense theory was Michael was asleep after mild sedation, Murray watched him for 15 or 30mn, then left Michael with a loaded syringe, bottles of benzos next to him, Murray was away for 40mn. When Murray came back, Michael was dead, Murray panicked, waited 20mn to call 911, took the time to put some of his stuff in his bags, in the closet, "overlooked" the propofol when he told the EMTs and UCLA doctors what had happened (remember he told them he had "witnessed" the arrest).
Murray didn't notice that his syringe had moved and was empty?

If Murray was in the next room or close by on the phone, Michael just had to call him to do the injection, why would he do it himself ? It doesn't make sense.

Honestly, how does that help Murray ? Even if you believe that theory, it's still negligence, Murray still significantly contributed to Michael's death : it's still a guilty verdict IMO.

I agree last part of Walgren's cross was a bit long, he was obviously tired, but what he was doing is important : he was showing study after study that were contradicting White's urine theory. That's the only thing that White had to contradict dr Shafer's infusion theory. Walgren will ask Dr Shafer about that, Dr Shafer will re explain that he needs the metabolite and not the free propofol.

Walgren really needs to bring up the transmural hemorrage quickly now, I don't understand why he hasn't done so yet .
He needs to bring up flumazenil again too, he needs to ask White why you would use flumazenil if you had given lorazepam at least 7 hours before ?
If Michael had swallowed 8 pills at 7 am, how come at 9 am Murray didn't notice anything ? 16 mg lorazepam wouldn't do anything on Michael ? How is that possible ? Murray was prescribing 2mg/night of lorazeapm on april 28th.
Why was Michael wearing a condom catheter in the first place ? Doesn't that show that Murray intended to sedate him, more heavily than just sleep ? If it was just sleep, Michael would have got up and gone to the bathroom , who likes to relieve onself with a catheter ?

Walgren using White's articles about safety when using sedation was brilliant. It made White look really bad, and White had to admit that what Murray was doing, the infusions at least, was dangerous.
 
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[h=1]Prosecutors ridicule Jackson self-injection scenario[/h][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans]
[/FONT]
By Alex Dobuzinskis
LOS ANGELES | Tue Nov 1, 2011 6:53am IST

(Reuters) - An expert defence witness suggested on Monday that Michael Jackson could have risen from his bed, picked up a syringe left by his doctor and given himself a fatal dose of a powerful anaesthetic in 2009.
But the testimony by Dr. Paul White in the trial of Dr. Conrad Murray was ridiculed by prosecutors in an aggressive cross-examination of the key witness for the defence.
As the trial, now in its sixth week, began drawing to a close, Murray told the judge he was still considering testifying in his own defence, despite previous assurances by his lawyers that they did not plan to call him.
"I have not made a decision," Murray said. "... It depends on how the case progresses."
In a damaging day for Murray, who has pleaded not guilty to the involuntary manslaughter of Jackson, White was forced to acknowledge he would never agree to give propofol to a patient in a bedroom to treat insomnia, as Murray has admitted doing.
Propofol, normally used to sedate patients before surgery, was ruled the chief cause of Jackson's death.
"It's something that no amount of money would convince me to accept or take on as a responsibility," White said.
Administering propofol for insomnia is an "off-label use" of the drug that "had not been studied," White said.
White, an expert on propofol, said that after Murray gave Jackson a relatively small dose of 25 milligrams of the drug, he might have walked out of the room and left a syringe with another 25 milligrams of the agent that Jackson called his "milk." Neither side in the case has said where a syringe might have been located.
Murray's attorneys have argued during the trial that Jackson may have "self-administered" propofol, but they have until now provided few details.
But an incredulous prosecutor cited prior testimony about how Jackson was lying in bed on June 25, 2009, wearing a urine-collecting device called a "condom catheter" and having taken several sedatives.
"And so Michael Jackson is walking around, wheeling an IV stand, attached to a condom catheter and Conrad Murray is somewhere else on the phone?" prosecutor David Walgren asked White. "It's a possible scenario," White responded.
LEAVING JACKSON'S BEDSIDE
The singer might have self-injected through a port on an IV line that Murray had installed for him, White said.
Prosecution witnesses have presented a scenario under which Murray placed Jackson on an intravenous drip of propofol after the initial injection, as he had done in about two months of prior nightly propofol treatments.
Prosecution witnesses have testified Murray was not properly monitoring Jackson, in a bid to bolster the charge of involuntary manslaughter, or gross negligence, against him.
White himself admitted that he would have not left Jackson's bedside since, as Walgren said, the singer had confessed he liked to "push the propofol" into himself.
White also told the court that he had been paid over $11,000 for his testimony by the defence team.
Murray faces up to four years in prison if convicted. Defense attorneys said they will call a researcher on Tuesday who prepared mathematical models White used to analyse the case, and that she would be their final witness.
Prosecutors said they plan to call back their propofol expert, Dr. Steven Shafer, to rebut defence testimony before both sides make closing arguments and hand the case to the jury.
(Editing by Jill Serjeant)

http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/11/01/idINIndia-60227620111101


 
Even if I doubt he will have the guts to do it, nothing would please me more than seeing Murray face to face with Walgren.
 
Had s deam last night that murray took the stand. then i come here and read this.kinda strange. dont think chernoff is stupid enough to let him though or the defence are just waiting till the last minute to keep them on their toes.

so the other dr is gonna testify. i guess that's
good cause it implies the pros did some d damage and the defence feel the need to clear it up .so hopefully today is thee last day according to pastor and that includes a short rebuttal from shaffer and wednesday is a day off before closing statements on thurs. this never seems to end
 
What does the abc tweet quote mean where its "he says he'll not defered that" inregards to having wed off. the way its written doesnt make sense. does it mean the judge hasnt decided?
 
Murray says he will wait to see how the case progresses before deciding!. the case is over so whats he on about. sounds like they just dont want to say till the last minute
 
Pastor told CM the fact that he takes the stand or not is his decision, and his only. Even if Chernoff & co dont agree, he can do it. But again, really doubt he will, especially after Walgren's performance yesterday.
 
so he should tell the juge his desicion today. let's wait... but I doubt he will decide to testify...
 
I agree last part of Walgren's cross was a bit long, he was obviously tired, but what he was doing is important : he was showing study after study that were contradicting White's urine theory. That's the only thing that White had to contradict dr Shafer's infusion theory. Walgren will ask Dr Shafer about that, Dr Shafer will re explain that he needs the metabolite and not the free propofol.

Walgren really needs to bring up the transmural hemorrage quickly now, I don't understand why he hasn't done so yet .
He needs to bring up flumazenil again too, he needs to ask White why you would use flumazenil if you had given lorazepam at least 7 hours before ?
If Michael had swallowed 8 pills at 7 am, how come at 9 am Murray didn't notice anything ? 16 mg lorazepam wouldn't do anything on Michael ? How is that possible ? Murray was prescribing 2mg/night of lorazeapm on april 28th.
Why was Michael wearing a condom catheter in the first place ? Doesn't that show that Murray intended to sedate him, more heavily than just sleep ? If it was just sleep, Michael would have got up and gone to the bathroom , who likes to relieve onself with a catheter ?
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Absolutely! Although (the bolded part) I can see white's point of view about animal vs human studies. Would seem logical coming from anyone else...HOWEVER I get the feeling white is a lazy man who likes to play on his past reputation and doesn't feel he has to do the work. He wasn't familiar with murray's interview or his own letter because he hadn't reviewed them in months? Contrast with Shafer and his ability to recall everything and lay his hands on it too!
No, I think white is showing his bias and really he is ignoring the obvious...Maybe it is a good thing he retired from anesthesia...being around all those gases may have affected his cognitive abilities. And I don't mean that as a joke.

Transmural hemorrhage, flumazenil, and no fingerprints, Why hasn't the prosecution talked about them more or at all?
 
elusive moonwalker said:
Had s deam last night that murray took the stand. then i come here and read this.kinda strange. dont think chernoff is stupid enough to let him though or the defence are just waiting till the last minute to keep them on their toes.

so the other dr is gonna testify. i guess that's
good cause it implies the pros did some d damage and the defence feel the need to clear it up .so hopefully today is thee last day according to pastor and that includes a short rebuttal from shaffer and wednesday is a day off before closing statements on thurs. this never seems to end
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Yeah that's true, although Chernoff is dumb he ain't that dumb to let him dig his own grave even further.

elusive moonwalker said:
Murray says he will wait to see how the case progresses before deciding!. the case is over so whats he on about. sounds like they just dont want to say till the last minute
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See but the thing is, Murray is an arrogant cocky bas***, he does feel very strongly about this 'injustice' and/or his 'innocence' and probably even thinks that he could to a better job defending himself than his lawyers did, due to his arrogance, so everything is possible but like you said even IF he is going to testify (which imo is highly unlikely), they're going with last minute keeping everything under wraps. Like you said.

Ben said:
Pastor told CM the fact that he takes the stand or not is his decision, and his only. Even if Chernoff & co dont agree, he can do it. But again, really doubt he will, especially after Walgren's performance yesterday.
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There's no doubts that he'd be ripped to shreds, I can imagine Murray throwing a fit while on the stand when Walgren is crossing him.

Did you all notice the arrogance on Murray's face yesterday? He was so damn cocky again, having regained his confidence after White's Friday testimony, he was sitting there, rolling his eyes etc, it was just in the middle of David's cross that his arrogance was less obvious.
 
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i think he's just about arrogant enough to think he could out smart the prosecutor. Seriously, this guy went to trial rather than say "yeah i f*cked up and i'm sorry". He must be a narcisist to actually think he did nothing wrong..he has sat there through all this evidence, he doesn't have a case at all, but still thinks he will be "vindicated". I mean really, you have to be a certain kind of person to sit through all of this evidence and think you didn't do anything wrong...i bet he really wants to testify....look at how he dug his own grave during the interview...and i doubt he will listen to his lawyers (who don't seem to have done a very good job but just look at the material they have to work with). I am sure his lawyers will do everything in their power to keep him off the stand, for his own good he should listen to them, but i hope he doesn't because i'd love to see walgren rip him apart....

what i find interesting (because nobody but murray knows what really happened and i'm still curious as to how murray made such a huge mistake in giving michael so much propofol).....is that white said that the tab that was missing/torn/cut from the iv tube was there to allow air flow, which speeds up the drip...murray had said in the police interview that after the initial injection of propofol he would release more slowly throw the iv, (although he denied doing that on the night mj died.)...perhaps when he left the room the iv was releasing propofol faster than he expected because of the damaged tab allowing air in. That could also be why, if he stashed the tube/iv in his pocket it didn't leak all over him, it was probably empty because it had all been pumped into michael.. surprised that i haven't seen anyone else talk about this....it kind of jumped out at me and thought you guys would be on to it. Maybe i got it all wrong but to me the guy said the tab, when working, was to let air in which speeds up the flow and if that was the one that was used on michael, it might have been what killed him.
 
geez, i get timed out all the time......and i keep getting kicked out all together and a new window starts.....makes it hard to post here....is it just me or is it this site.
 
Murray looks so arrogant, I wouldn't be surprised either way. I'm not sure I want to hear what he has to say. If he does take the stand, could he choose what he wants to say , ie take the fifth on certain questions ? I know it would sound bad in front of the jury, but there's already so much damage done.. His own witnesses are not really defending him, when they didn't testify against him. What does he have to lose now ?
 
cinzia said:
Absolutely! Although (the bolded part) I can see white's point of view about animal vs human studies. Would seem logical coming from anyone else...HOWEVER I get the feeling white is a lazy man who likes to play on his past reputation and doesn't feel he has to do the work. He wasn't familiar with murray's interview or his own letter because he hadn't reviewed them in months? Contrast with Shafer and his ability to recall everything and lay his hands on it too!
No, I think white is showing his bias and really he is ignoring the obvious...Maybe it is a good thing he retired from anesthesia...being around all those gases may have affected his cognitive abilities. And I don't mean that as a joke.

Transmural hemorrhage, flumazenil, and no fingerprints, Why hasn't the prosecution talked about them more or at all?
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The fingers prints and so on are stuff you say in your closing. It's not something you say to any witness.

On the animal study, White had a point, but he made a big error early in the trial that kind of kill his credibility in this area. He willingly accepted Fran's beagle study along with his colleague's study in rats without questioning if the same holds true in humans. He got on Shaffer for doing a human study, but when the DA ask if that study was the one that changed his mind, he tried to slide it.

So, why is the animal's study fine for disproving oral propfol theory accepted without a fuss, but he readily rejects animals study about propofol and pee? See the double standard?
 
Ramona122003 said:
The fingers prints and so on are stuff you say in your closing. It's not something you say to any witness.
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Has the transmural hemorrage in the stomach been mentionned at all ? Unless I missed something, I don't think it's been mentionned yet. I don't remember Dr Rogers saying that, and all the experts trying to figure out why there was lorazepam in the stomach, no one mentions that ? It's beginning to worry me
 
bouee said:
Has the transmural hemorrage in the stomach been mentionned at all ? Unless I missed something, I don't think it's been mentionned yet. I don't remember Dr Rogers saying that, and all the experts trying to figure out why there was lorazepam in the stomach, no one mentions that ? It's beginning to worry me
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I think Anderson mentioned it on cross when Flan asked how could Lopz get into the stomach if Michael didn't take pills. He said himself it could had been from the surrounding blood that got into the stomach, but then we got this long lecture about ionization and other stuff I can't remember. I think, however, the defense point was because of how Lopz works it doesn't transfer over to other organs that well.
 
Thanks Ramona, so Walgren could ask him again during rebuttal. He really needs to do that. And ask both Dr Shafer and Anderson, to make it really clear.
 
Dont think anderson is gonna be apart of the rebuttal. only shaffer was mentioned by the pros. the loraz in the stomach is a big issue i fail to understand why walgren has not made the point clear to the jury. its these points out of everything that could cost him the case imo. becausr if the jury dont have a valid reason for the loraz being in the stomach as white was so adament about it only getting there by oral.then the jury will go with that. and if u believe mj took the tabs u will more likely believe mj injected aswell
 
I just hope walgre brings it up on rebuttal with shaffer. but so far its like hes totally forgotten. maybe it will come in rebuttal so the defence wont really have a chance to counter it. i dunno. if he had a direct email addy id be sending one but cant see on on the D.A website
 
elusive moonwalker said:
Dont think anderson is gonna be apart of the rebuttal. only shaffer was mentioned by the pros. the loraz in the stomach is a big issue i fail to understand why walgren has not made the point clear to the jury. its these points out of everything that could cost him the case imo. becausr if the jury dont have a valid reason for the loraz being in the stomach as white was so adament about it only getting there by oral.then the jury will go with that. and if u believe mj took the tabs u will more likely believe mj injected aswell
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Actually, the DA did point out a big problem with this theory without challenging the science. The DA asked White when and how Michael had the time to take Lopz when Murray only left the room once and that was after her gave the propofol. White then said that Murray told him that Michael was walking around in the early hours and went between rooms and could had taken drugs then.

Problem, Murray didn't say that in his police interview. He clearly said he stood by Michael's side all night. Why did he suddenly remember that Michael was up and around only when talking to White, after he was charge most likely, and not the polices who just wanted to know what the heck happened. So, his statement can easily be seen as self-serving BS, especially when you consider the other lies in his interview with polices. You also have to get over the fact that White is saying that Michael walked around with an IV on wheels between rooms. If Michael wanted to sleep so badly, why was he walking around and why was Murray allowing it since he could had dislodge his IV? I also want to point out that I think AA and the ER doctor said the condom catheter was hanging and not strap to Michael like White said.

elusive, I know you're concern about the case like the rest of us, but it seems that in some of your posts you assume that the people in the jury are morons or just really slow and will assume things are true without thinking further.
 
Ramona, I have the same concern as Elusive. White had a point saying that there was no other explanation for lorazepam in the stomach than oral consumption. Walgren really needs to address that, it's not saying that the jurors are morons, White gave a logical explanation.
It's not about the verdict for me, because leaving a syringe loaded and benzos right next to Michael is still negligence, especially considering what Murray said about Michael hiding things from him and asking to do the injections hmself. I am still confident they will return a guilty verdict.
It's about making it clear that Michael did not take anything himself
 
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