Murray Trial Day 21, October 31st - Discussion

[twinklEE]

Can they bring Shafer tomorrow? Someone that seems to know what he is talking about. I am staying very cautious right now about it at all.

It's already been said that tomorrow is redirect from the defense, then recross probably and maybe even re-redirect and re-recross. some we don't know if they will finish this matter tomorrow or not, at least I'm not sure if it's gonna end tomorrow or not, I think Shafer's gonna be back but for rebuttal but we don't know when it's gonna start either tomorrow or on Wednesday, personally I'd say Wednesday, and I think it would be better if they'd start with rebuttal on a new day, instead of bringing it on tomorrow.

 

[classic]

. . .
walgren rang white and i think he asked him to work for the pros??. white said i had been asked by the defence but hadnt decided what involvement i was gonna take place. white says in the convo with walgren he asked white if he was gonna get paid. white says im retired its my only source of income

Was this brought up on cross exam by Walgren or re-direct by Flannagan? It is like money was a motivation for him based on that response.
It is hard to hear someone with his credentials justifying some of the stuff done by Murray.

 

[twinklEE]

Was this brought up on cross exam by Walgren or re-direct by Flannagan? It is like money was a motivation for him based on that response.
It is hard to hear someone with his credentials justifying some of the stuff done by Murray.

it was brought up by flanagan himself, white said that walgren asked him how the defense was able to pay him/hire experts etc, says walgren seemed surprised by it, well I am as well, I still wanna know who exactly is paying White, and (Waldman), Murray is a broke ass idiot who can't afford shyte, so who is paying those $11,000+ for White's testimony alone?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

it was brought up on redirect

 

[Ingelief]

ok thx

 

[bouee]

I really agree with all of this...I was wondering if he was getting tired after lunch. Yes, why not mention the flumaz? I feel he was getting too bogged down with all of those studies unless he has some other plan in mind.


ETA: and has no one mentioned the transmural stomach hemorrhage ?

no walgrens missed out a few things imo , he should have come here and read! his cross dropped off in the second half. and went abit weak imo. things like why did murray use the flumez if he only gave a small amount of benzos. how would mj be in a state to do all that after eating all the loraz tablets. murray claiming mj was blind etc not bringing up the ruptured stomach as a reason for the loraz in the stomach.. annoying that these things we talk about so much get missed

agree with that elusive, he did forget to bring up things, as tiring as this is walgren needs to make sure to get it right and nail murray and those bought defense experts, like u said he didn't mention flumezinile nor did he bring up how mj would have been able to walk around like that after all the benzos, or the lack of fingerprints of mj found on anything, what did michael do? Get rid of his gloves shortly before dying as well?! Walgren needs to mention this on recross. he got tired in the second half.

maybe he should let brazil do a bit of cross as well. she wasn't as exhausted as him.

Agree with you, I was a littje disappointed too. The good thing thing about bringing up all this stuff about urine, is that he waill probably ask Dr Shafer the same questions, and we"ll get much better answers

 

[ivy]

he can mention them in his closing. for example if ruptured stomach is not white's specialty rather than asking it and confusing jurors he can just reference Anderson in his closing.

 

[OnirMJ]

I expected more from Walgren today. Is dr. Shafer coming back tommorow?

 

[twinklEE]

Walgren wasn't bad he was great in the first half but then he simply got tired imo. He let Whtie get off to easily, but maybe he will address those tomorrow or an wednesday. .

 

[bouee]

In the beginning though, the "Michael had his own supply of propofol" was huge...:wild: :rollin:

The jurors heard that too, I wonder what they thought.... Dr White inadvertendly confirmed what a liar Murray is, he even lies to his own defense team !

 

[ginvid]

no walgrens missed out a few things imo , he should have come here and read! his cross dropped off in the second half. and went abit weak imo. things like why did murray use the flumez if he only gave a small amount of benzos. how would mj be in a state to do all that after eating all the loraz tablets. murray claiming mj was blind etc not bringing up the ruptured stomach as a reason for the loraz in the stomach.. annoying that these things we talk about so much get missed

I agree. I also think Walgren needed to hone in on the fact that White was picking which comments he would take from CM and accepting others. He really, really needs to make this stick in the jury's minds that Cm isnot reliable, and White as an extention of this unrealiable testimony is not reliable either. They still didn't mention that Murray said he was with MJ all night and only left @noon the next day. Then you have to ask the question of when Michael could have swallowed oral lorazepam. If he did it at 7am, then according to Murray's own testimony, he would have to have seen MJ do it if he was watching him so carefully. If he didn't see Michael do it, then perhaps he was not monitering Michael very carefully throughout the night at all. Then also point out the White said he thought MJ took 2 or 3 pills several times during the night. That means that either Murray was not watching Michael several times during the night or he saw Michael taking lorazepam which means he was even more negligent in his care to Michael then previously tought. Then draw that line that if Murray wasnot watching Michael as carefully as he said he did, then how do we know that Murray actually watched Michael after giving 25mg of propofol especially when he was on the phone.

Walgren in missing the opportunity to show just how much Murray was on the phone and neglecting Michael. He didn't emphasize the fact that MJ could not have drawn up the propofol with the lidocane. Murray had to do that. I know they touche don that, but the jury really has to understand Murray's culpability. Even if you think Michael self injected, Murray left a full needle with a patient who he said liked to push the propofol in, with a patient that he knew could wake up at any minute because as Murray said he was not still under the effects of propofol and Murray gave the benzos so long ago, he didnt really think they would have an effect. Murray has to be held responsible. If you give purposely leave a loaded gun to someone who likes pull triggers, would you really be surprised if they wound up shotting themselves.

Walgren please draw these lines clearly with the jury. Please mention how the cumulative effect of all these things Murray did wrong caused Michael's death. Walgren has to cut through all of the medical mumbo jumbo and bring it back to the basics.

 

[dmehta]

I think some of you have missed the point with regards to Walgren's questions at the end. He was asking a lot of questions that elicited a lot of sustained objections, but the point he was trying to make out is that his analysis of the non changing level of propofol in the urine was taken from one study, and that proved to be largely inaccurate too as Walgren was pointing out with some quotes he highlighted from the text. Walgren was bringing up lots of other articles to first prove that Dr White had done very little, if any, research and secondly to lay the groundwork to possibly call back Shafer to testify on those articles in order to further undermine Dr White's assertion that Mike's urine level of propofol means he could not have been on an infusion. I believe Shafer is likely to come back in to show that assertion to be false.

Walgren knew there would be objections - as White had not read any of those articles - but he was laying the groundwork for possibly calling back Shafer and asking him about those same studies. That is my opinion, anyway.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

he can mention them in his closing. for example if ruptured stomach is not white's specialty rather than asking it and confusing jurors he can just reference Anderson in his closing.

did anderson mention that? to me walgren should just be saying are u aware the stomach was ruptured. it puts the info out there even if white doesnt comment on it.

 

[Ramona122003]

Walgren wasn't bad he was great in the first half but then he simply got tired imo. He let Whtie get off to easily, but maybe he will address those tomorrow or an wednesday. .

You can tell he threw his hands up in disguest in the end. To White, it was the other doctor's fault that he didn't know anything. Despite the fact he had no such problems on Friday.

 

[marebear]

It's already been said that tomorrow is redirect from the defense, then recross probably and maybe even re-redirect and re-recross. some we don't know if they will finish this matter tomorrow or not, at least I'm not sure if it's gonna end tomorrow or not, I think Shafer's gonna be back but for rebuttal but we don't know when it's gonna start either tomorrow or on Wednesday, personally I'd say Wednesday, and I think it would be better if they'd start with rebuttal on a new day, instead of bringing it on tomorrow.

Thank you.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

In the beginning though, the "Michael had his own supply of propofol" was huge...:wild: :rollin:The jurors heard that too, I wonder what they thought.... Dr White inadvertendly confirmed what a liar Murray is, he even lies to his own defense team !

Why would that be good for the pros? white and the defence wanted that info out there for a reason .the whole dr shopping drughie stuff

 

[classic]

it was brought up by flanagan himself, white said that walgren asked him how the defense was able to pay him/hire experts etc, says walgren seemed surprised by it, well I am as well, I still wanna know who exactly is paying White, and (Waldman), Murray is a broke ass idiot who can't afford shyte, so who is paying those $11,000+ for White's testimony alone?

Good question. I wonder if there is ever a way that attorneys can get such info. revealed in court. I guess only if Murray himself took the stand.

 

[ivy]

Walgren please draw these lines clearly with the jury. Please mention how the cumulative effect of all these things Murray did wrong caused Michael's death. Walgren has to cut through all of the medical mumbo jumbo and bring it back to the basics.

and that's what closing is for . Trust me it's coming.

did anderson mention that? to me walgren should just be saying are u aware the stomach was ruptured. it puts the info out there even if white doesnt comment on it.

No but he mentioned ion trapping right?

 

[marebear]

Walgren got a sense today how White responds to him. He will get another chance tomorrow and we will see how he does.

 

[Ramona122003]

Why would that be good for the pros? white and the defence wanted that info out there for a reason .the whole dr shopping drughie stuff

Problem, where's the proof? The LAPD said nothing on Michael having his own supple. No sell records, no other doctors, nothing. The defense itself said nothing about Michael having his supple.

 

[twinklEE]

I think some of you have missed the point with regards to Walgren's questions at the end. He was asking a lot of questions that elicited a lot of sustained objections, but the point he was trying to make out is that his analysis of the non changing level of propofol in the urine was taken from one study, and that proved to be largely inaccurate too as Walgren was pointing out with some quotes he highlighted from the text. Walgren was bringing up lots of other articles to first prove that Dr White had done very little, if any, research and secondly to lay the groundwork to possibly call back Shafer to testify on those articles in order to further undermine Dr White's assertion that Mike's urine level of propofol means he could not have been on an infusion. I believe Shafer is likely to come back in to show that assertion to be false.

Walgren knew there would be objections - as White had not read any of those articles - but he was laying the groundwork for possibly calling back Shafer and asking him about those same studies. That is my opinion, anyway.

No, I think what you are saying here was pretty clear he was obviously trying to show the lack of research White did and the difference between the propofol in the urine levels, but the thing is that him quoting one article after another was a bit tiring, and even annoyed the judge a bit. I'm not sure if all of the jury followed it through. He should have focused on Murray's lies, lack of fingerprints, use of flumenzenil, all the other benzo's, murray's use of flumenzenil in the prior days of june 25, to show how reckless murray's behavior really was. See the thing about june 25 is, that Murray was reckless all along, he could have died even earlier than June 25. That's how grossly negligent murray was. He just didn't care, shooting Michael up, sitting there for few mins, then getting on the phone, sweet talking to them stripper girlfriends etc.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Of course theres no proof but when did that matter. it about making sure the jury hear it thats all.

 

[bouee]

Why would that be good for the pros? white and the defence wanted that info out there for a reason .the whole dr shopping drughie stuff

you're right, I didn't think about it that way, when I heard that it just made me laugh, just like Walgren.

How can you believe that when you see the huge amounts of propofol Murray has bought ??? How would have Michael bought it ? The jurors are not going to buy that, well I hope not !

 

[twinklEE]

Why would that be good for the pros? white and the defence wanted that info out there for a reason .the whole dr shopping drughie stuff

I think it's already been established that whatever propofol was at Mj's home was obtained by Murray and Murray only, it's just the defense's and Murray's lies of MJ having his own stock, if any other propofol but Murray's had been found at MJ's house, the defense would have made an even bigger deal about it.

 

[Naturelle]

showing the IV thats been messed with. white points out its been pulled off or cut off. flanagan has the same IV a new one that has the tab in place he wants so show it. showing the spike and the venting port on it. the venting port cap is missing on the other IV.looks like it was cut off. did u do something to it? no i would never and ive never seen it b4. that tab make a difference to how its would be used? no not really. doesnt understand why it would be removed.. it wouldnt make no difference to how the Iv would work.

lets assume murray did use the IV to give dip on the 25th would it be easy to conseal the IV? if u put it in your pocket your pocket would be wet. easier to hide the IV line than the IV bag. correct? yes

back to oral dip given (oh get on with it flanagan) u based your opinion on ruffalo and rogers from the prelim? yes. flannagans bringing up the stomach contents amounts as hypotheticals. and the pros witnesses said it could indicate a possible oral injestion. yes says white (that was when ruffaflo messed up)

walgren rang white and i think he asked him to work for the pros??. white said i had been asked by the defence but hadnt decided what involvement i was gonna take place. white says in the convo with walgren he asked white if he was gonna get paid. white says im retired its my only source of income

White is telling WHITE LIES, (his only income) my ass. If he worked as he said and edited books and such, his retirement should be a hefty one, he seems to be greedy just like CM.

 

[Justthefacts]

Was there any proof presented in court that Michael had his own stash? Even if the jury heard hears it. They will ask where is it?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Agree twinklee.walgrens good but he seems to be missing a certain factor. he has to lay it all out in the closing and tell the story so to speak cause hes missing out important issues imo during questioning that would knock down whites comments. white saying the only way loraz can get in the stomach is from oral is very damaging imo yet walgren could knock that straight down by mentioning the rupture but he hasnt. its important to get rid of any doubt cause if the jury think mj took pills they are gonna think he injected aswell

 

[twinklEE]

Walgren's reaction to White's comment abotu Michael having his own supply of propofol was similar to his reaction when Waldman claimed he hadn't followed the trial to maintain his ''objectivity'', he chuckled at first then objected to strike the response. I think White's answer also showed how desperate the defense/murray is to make up anything. I can totally imagine Murray sitting there and lying thru his teeth about something like this, after all he was the one lying in his police interview barely 2 days after MJ's death, while the world was still in shock, Murray was at the Bel Air hotel, calling Michael 'inhumane'!

 

[twinklEE]

Was there any proof presented in court that Michael had his own stash? Even if the jury heard hears it. They will ask where is it?

None whatsoever. So far it's been established that whatever bottles of propofol came directly from Murray.

White is telling WHITE LIES, (his only income) my ass. If he worked as he said and edited books and such, his retirement should be a hefty one, he seems to be greedy just like CM.

Of course that's a lie, and he is greedy forget him editing/writing books, the sole fact that he was/is a doctor; an anesthesiologist indicates that dude's made enough money before retiring. My aunt is an anesthesiologist and she sometimes makes $25,000 a month. I'm not kidding. White has to have money considering he (used to be) such a respected expert in his field.

 

[Ramona122003]

Of course theres no proof but when did that matter. it about making sure the jury hear it thats all.

We can assume that the jury isn't stupid and are asking the same question as us. Like how White kept saying that Michael freely walked around, with an IV no less, and that's how he took the lopz. Murray said nothing about to polices and they can easily assume that Murray told him about Michael' other supple.