Michael - The Great Album Debate

[OnirMJ]

And how many copies of Immortal... being sold? There was no controversy about it.

I'm going to repeat again. The majority of MJ's fans who spend the money for the physical products
don't have too much time for going in circle on the websites.

You will hear what you want to hear, some people will follow you and some people will follow me. And I'm positive it's Michael singing. It's depends on who's opinion the followers will chose. So I don't believe that many regular people, non-fans believe that the tracks are fake.

I believe that when the kids will be old enough they will be doing the research on their own what their father was doing in the NJ home when they were in school or in bed. He didn't walk around or watched tv too much. It's not his style. It's logical that being a musician he would use the little
equipment available to him on the spot and the space he would used it and record. He always was grooming Eddie for working with him in the studio so it's no surprise that he did it when he had an opportunity. Did he plan to release it without polishing it. Never ever. But unfortunately he died. And it was Frank DiLeo who took care of all the music staff which was going to be finish in London. The recordings in the Cascios house were no secrets at all for many people. And it wasn't private anymore. I don't think you should to blame Eddie for selling Michael.

I also would not criticize Eddie for being silent. The Cascio family was around Michael during the last 20 years more than any Jackson family member excluding of course MJ's children. However Michael's children were younger and the children are more resilient. They will probably really realize his absent later in life. Cascios children for sure understood more what really happened because they were older. And how people suffer when they loose someone close to them depends on the level of their personal sensibility. And Eddie always was being seen as the most sensible one. He was never interested in looking for publicity. Why he should do now? It's seems he doesn't feel he needs fans applause. I'm sure he will talk when he will feel like doing it. And it's good that he can focus on his own family now. It's probably a good therapy for him.

Immortal was a very poorly executed remix album, not long awaited studio album with unreleased material and it sold extremly badly. On that album was also one of the Cascio songs and I know people who refused to buy it because that song was included and Eddie Cascio was credited. I don't know what are you trying to say with that. I was refering to your post that 2MIL people would buy an album with just Cascio songs on it. There is no chance that that album would sell over 100 000 worldwide!

The kids will never ever support those tracks. And I'm sure that they'll request that all copies of MICHAEL album are withdrawn from sale and that the name Cascio is erased from Michael Jackson's discography.

Of course I should blame Eddie for selling Michael. Him and his whole family. Brothers, sisters and parents. They all know the truth. And of course their assistant James Porte. It is not the first time that someone betrayed or sold Michael. Many people who he considerd family betrayed him including his own blood LaToya... The only difference this time is that Cascios betrayed him after he died and that is even more sad and low because he can not defend himself anymore.

 

[OnirMJ]

And the moon is made of cheese. Your empathy is on the wrong side of the barrier -- the opposite of MJ's legacy!

We have an administrator on a MJJ forum who has empathy for people creating the mess at Michael's expenses, undermining the impact of the release of those three songs, some members calling MJ a wreck and not caring about why the proof isn't shown, and the list goes down.

Am I on a MJ fan forum? What is this?

Where is the unity of MJ's fans to clearly demand those proofs to the Estate instead of beating around the bush with them and having empathy (what for???). They released those tracks and created a huge mess, the onus is on them to show those proofs.

It's as simple as this: if they have the proof, they must show it to us. If they don't have the proof, then they must clearly tell us that they don't have it.

But I suspect that the only proof they do have are some reports with which they can defend their own asses why they were led to believe that it is MJ singing, which in reality isn't a proof, but just a cover for their asses in case they are attacked.

Ivy, keep on having empathy with the ones who admitted themselves they made a massive mistake, yet are doing absolutely nothing to repair that mistake.

Maybe MJJC is controlled by the Estate? I'm really starting to think that. All this excuses.. And why is this thread hidden so that only ones who know where to find it can see it. This thread should be available to everyone, on the first page of the forum. Cascio talk is forbidden in all other threads but this thread is hidden under "Trials And Tribulations - Michael's Life We All love To Hate" and then in the sub-forum "The Controversy". What's up with that?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

how hard is it for you to understand that I DON'T have to feel or think the way you do. You are not the king of the Michael Jackson fan community and you cannot tell me how I should act.

I am not the King of MJ fan community, but you seem to be the Queen of Cascio community

Michael's legacy? Please. That's exaggerated teenage drama queen talk for me.

I'll defend MJ and his legacy till my last breath! After 2 years of unsolved controversy you qualify this as an exaggerated teenage drama queen talk? I'd be ashamed of myself to even call myself a Michael Jackson fan with such an awful argument by which you undermine and deny the huge stain in MJ's discography.

 

[ivy]

I am not the King of MJ fan community, but you seem to be the Queen of Cascio community

good. do you feel better now?

After 2 years of unsolved controversy you qualify this as an exaggerated teenage drama queen talk? I'd be ashamed of myself to even call myself a Michael Jackson fan with such an awful argument by which you undermine and deny the huge stain in MJ's discography.

Don't twist my words. I made myself extremely clear. I was talking about the effect on Michael's legacy, not the controversy or this discussion. Michael built his legacy with his own hands with hard work over decades. Posthumous releases are a different thing. "Breaking news" did not hurt Michael's legacy. Bad decisions made by other people, scams by other people won't hurt Michael's legacy. Similarly "Al Capone" would not build Michael's legacy. Nothing can touch Michael's legacy. And you cannot even show a single negative effect on his legacy. Is there anyone out there thinking less about Michael's musical legacy because the Breaking news is released? No and you know it. I actually have a lot more confidence in Michael's legacy than you do apparently.

Do not mix up legacy with controversy or legacy with discography. Those are different things. I did wrote years ago I would have preferred these songs not to be released due to the controversy and disharmony they caused. Yes I would have preferred them to be not part of the discography but they have absolutely no effect on Michael's legacy. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

good. do you feel better now?



Don't twist my words. I made myself extremely clear. My point was about the effect on Michael's legacy, not the controversy. Michael built his legacy with his own hands with hard work over decades. Posthumous releases are a different thing. "Breaking news" did not hurt Michael's legacy. Bad decisions made by other people, scams by other people won't hurt Michael's legacy. Similar "Al Capone" would not build Michael's legacy. Nothing can touch Michael's legacy. And you cannot even show a single negative effect on his legacy. Is there anyone out there thinking less about Michael's musical legacy because the Breaking news is released? No and you know it. I actually have a lot more confidence in Michael's legacy than you do apparently.

Do not mix up legacy with controversy or legacy with discography. Those are different things.

Well, come on, let's open the door to the soundalikes on MJ's future releases, nothing can touch MJ's legacy, right?

Don't you understand that one does not excuse the other. I am not going to wait for people to think less about MJ's legacy to protest when I hear an alien vocie on a MJ's album without the proof that it's MJ. If I were alone in this doubt, I'd question myself, which I often do, but when there is more than half of MJ fan community that is divided on the question you don't put this under the rug. This is serious matter, and not drama queen talk gibberish that you think.

 

[ivy]

Well, come on, let's open the door to the soundalikes on MJ's future releases, nothing can touch MJ's legacy, right?

Don't you understand that one does not excuse the other. I am not going to wait for people to think less about MJ's legacy to protest when I hear an alien vocie on a MJ's album without the proof that it's MJ. If I were alone in this doubt, I'd question myself, which I often do, but when there is more than half of MJ fan community that is divided on the question you don't put this under the rug. This is serious matter, and not drama queen talk gibberish that you think.

uhm Bumper you might want to realize that I don't share the "soundalikes" and "an alien voice" opinion of you. once you realize that not everyone thinks like you this would be a lot easier. and I never said open the door for sounalikes. That's twisting my words.

To me this is a controversy. To me this is not certain either way. To me this is unknown. I said such controversy would not affect his already established and already strong legacy. And it didn't. There's no one out there that thinks less of Michael because they heard Monster for example. They are either clueless of the controversy and like the songs or they are aware of the controversy and blame the parties involved. It got no effect on Michael.

Also let me point out again and again I did not call this matter - the discussion about the songs- drama queen talk. I said thinking his legacy is hurt because of these songs and what people did is an exaggerated drama queen talk. You in your response also state that his legacy isn't affected and you wouldn't wait around for people to think less. So as I said "people thinking less about his legacy due to Cascio songs" didn't happen and you are exaggerating it a little bit. That's all.

 

[Rudolf]

Chillax boys and gals.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

uhm Bumper you might want to realize that I don't share the "soundalikes" and "an alien voice" opinion of you. once you realize that not everyone thinks like you this would be a lot easier. and I never said open the door for sounalikes. That's twisting my words.

I am not asking you to share my opinion. Also, you have stated many times that you haven't heard the other tracks, so your opinion without listening to the 12 songs is irrelevant.

To me this is a controversy. To me this is not certain either way. To me this is unknown. I said such controversy would not affect his already established and already strong legacy.

You call it A contreoversy, I call it THE controversy. Two years of holding back the proof and you defend that attitude. Where's your empathy for the doubters? Remember, the doubters are MJ's fans too, we're buying MJ's products too, we're defending MJ's legacy too, we've been around to support MJ when he was in his difficult times too, we were there for MJ before Branca and will be here after Branca. It is also thanks to people like us, doubters, who are not easily satisfied that we have a beautiful package of BAD25, because the Estate knows by now that we are demanding.

Also let me point out again and again I did not call this matter - the discussion about the songs- drama queen talk. I said thinking his legacy is hurt because of these songs and what people did is an exaggerated drama queen talk.

Michael is part of MJ's legacy. Those three songs are on that album. So if you don't see it as a stain, there is a whole bunch of us around the world that think alike and that you seem to turn blind eye and deaf ear on allowing you to undermine the release of those three songs. We might sound exaggerating to non-fans, but to hard core fans tjis is certainly far from being exaggerated! The three songs must disappear from MJ's albums and discography. that's what we want, since they fail to provide us with any proof. If they keep the proof for themselves, fine, but then they can keep the songs for themselves too. We don't need controversy.

You in your response also state that his legacy isn't affected and you wouldn't wait around for people to think less. So as I said "people thinking less about his legacy due to Cascio songs" didn't happen and you are exaggerating it a little bit. That's all.

To a hardcore fan it is a huge stain, a huge issue. To other people it's not a big deal.

 

[kreen]

@ Bumper and Ivy :

We are not “defenders of MJ’s legacy”. Really, that sort of talk is why MJ fans have a reputation as being a bit on the cuckoo side. We don’t know MJ, he’s not a family member, and he’s not someone we have to protect. He’s a megastar, who’s now gone, and whose music we enjoy.

But where I do agree with Bumper is that IF the songs are fake, they DO have to be taken off the market. Posthumous releases do become a part of any artist’s discography, although with the proverbial “asterisk”. But certainly, it matters that there is now an album that is out, and that anyone can buy, and that indeed people will be buying (in some small volume, at least) for years to come. And so, IF the album does contain fake tracks, it needs to be purged from the market, or at least acknowledged officially as illegitimate. It’s a question of historical accuracy and ethics.

One doesn’t have to be a “defender of the legacy” to share this point of view: I’d say the same thing, and feel the same, about any artist, from Robert Johnson to Justin Bieber!

So what we have to do is to keep digging for the truth, which means try to find facts and testimonies that can shed light on the matter, whether in one way or the other. It means not focussing on “winning” over the other side, but actually trying to find new pieces of the puzzle.

Getting at least some info from Angelo Montrone was an example: it’s a small piece of the puzzle, but it’s something.

Stella talking to Branca was another piece of the puzzle, and it’s disappointing she won’t share with us what he said.

Frank saying he thinks the songs are real is another small piece.

The ULTIMATE piece of the puzzle would be to get Eddie, James, or indeed anyone from that group to say anything at all about that issue.

Ivy, how close did you get to getting Eddie to answer your questions in this regard?

 

[ivy]

Maybe MJJC is controlled by the Estate? I'm really starting to think that. All this excuses.. And why is this thread hidden so that only ones who know where to find it can see it. This thread should be available to everyone, on the first page of the forum. Cascio talk is forbidden in all other threads but this thread is hidden under "Trials And Tribulations - Michael's Life We All love To Hate" and then in the sub-forum "The Controversy". What's up with that?

watch out my friend that's a ticket to get banned. and if you do it won't be because of your opinion in regards to the songs, it would be due to accusations against administrators.

and the long term people know the reason for it. This topic creates disharmony. We made a survey that over 800 people answered. Half of them said "I hate Cascio songs debate and I don't want to see it" , the other half said "I want to discuss it". So this thread, we said to people "here discuss it as much as you want but do not discuss it other sections and do not disturb the people that doesn't want to see it." We said to the other people "hey if you don't want to see this discussion do not enter the thread". And the section is appropriate, this section was made public by the request and people abused that.

You have to realize that you are not the only people here. This is a community and we are required to find the middle ground. You might want it to be on the first page but there are people that doesn't want to even see the mention of it. This is the best of two words.

Where's your empathy for the doubters?

such an unfair statement. My empathy was when I asked for the expert reports from MJ Estate, it was when I pursued Eddie Cascio for a Q&A for months, it was when I asked questions to Taj and Jermaine Jackson. That was my empathy, that was me caring about the doubters, unfortunately you are too blind to see it and give me credit for it.

Ivy, how close did you get to getting Eddie to answer your questions in this regard?

Not close. I discussed it with Frank who wasn't willing to discuss it himself. He talked to Eddie who didn't seem interested as well. However I must add this was a common approach from the Jacksons as well. They weren't too keen on discussing it either and preferred to move on or to give generic and politic answers. I felt like it was chapter that everyone preferred to close and leave it in the past. I'm intrigued to see that Frank recently answered the questions but I don't know if he was willing or was caught unexpectedly. I'll definitely ask it again in the future. Sometimes time is the key.

I'm also actively pursuing Branca in regards to many matters including this one. Jesta is a witness to that.

 

[Chamife]

Stella is a guy. He uses his dogs name as a username.


Stella is a guy. He uses his dogs name as a username.


Stella is a guy. He uses his dogs name as a username.


Stella is a guy. He uses his dogs name as a username.


Stella is a guy. He uses his dogs name as a username.


Hope this helps..

 

[kreen]

Stella is a guy. He uses his dogs name as a username.


Stella is a guy. He uses his dogs name as a username.


Stella is a guy. He uses his dogs name as a username.


Stella is a guy. He uses his dogs name as a username.


Stella is a guy. He uses his dogs name as a username.


Hope this helps..

Ah! That's sort of confusing though...

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

such an unfair statement. My empathy was when I asked for the expert reports from MJ Estate, it was when I pursued Eddie Cascio for a Q&A for months, it was when I asked questions to Taj and Jermaine Jackson. That was my empathy, that was me caring about the doubters, unfortunately you are too blind to see it and give me credit for it.

So you had empathy towards the doubters and asked Eddie to answer our questions, but he refused and all of sudden you had empathy for him because he refused. My, my, lol.

 

[OnirMJ]

and the long term people know the reason for it. This topic creates disharmony. We made a survey that over 800 people answered. Half of them said "I hate Cascio songs debate and I don't want to see it" , the other half said "I want to discuss it". So this thread, we said to people "here discuss it as much as you want but do not discuss it other sections and do not disturb the people that doesn't want to see it." We said to the other people "hey if you don't want to see this discussion do not enter the thread". And the section is appropriate, this section was made public by the request and people abused that.

I think it is a censorship. If someone doesn't want to see it they should not enter the thread. It is not the reason why this thread should be so hard to find.

You are great, very active in this thread and I'm very grateful for all work you did regarding this issue. Although our beliefs are completly different.

And one more thing. Legacy don't stop when the artist die, legacy continues. And these songs damaged his legacy in my opinion.

 

[SoCav]

Calm down, guys. Remember that in the end we are all here because we love MJ and his music.

ivy, I do agree with Bumper that these tracks hurt, or rather, are a stain on MJ's legacy. I think whether you see these tracks as hurtful or not simply depends on whether you believe they feature fake vocals or not. I can understand your perspective, given that you think the songs do feature, at least in part, authentic vocals. In that case, you might disagree with the decision to 'finish' songs, especially songs that were in such an unfinished state. I have the same issue with some other tracks on 'Michael', like Hollywood Tonight which Teddy Riley (imo) unnecessarily altered to quite a large extent. But as much as I dislike that he did that, I do not really worry about it hurting MJ's legacy, as there is still authentic MJ on those songs. As I do not believe this to be the case for the Cascio songs, I do see them as a very ugly stain on his catalogue.

As a doubter, it is sad for me to think that some people believe these dreadful vocals are MJ's and that new fans might listen to these songs thinking it is MJ. And of course I feel very sad that, if these songs are fake, MJ was betrayed by someone he trusted once again and in the one area of his life that, amid all the personal allegations that were leveled at him, stood tall: his musical legacy.

Let me give an example: Sometime ago two people were on twitter talking negatively about me and MJJC and said that we don't allow the Cascio debate and we ban people. This wasn't true. I had a rough idea about the banned people mentioned and I had first hand knowledge of why they were banned - not because of their opinions in regards to these songs. I had proof - cold hard proof. How many times they were reported, how many times they were warned, multiple messages from multiple moderators and so on. I could have clearly demonstrate why they were banned. I had this thread with millions of views and close to 2000 pages glory to show that the discussion was allowed.

But I didn't do it. Why? Because I knew this person was overly negative towards MJJC and me, I knew that they had already made up their minds without asking or seeking information and without giving us a chance to explain ourselves. It would have been a futile attempt to try to change their minds. Also 2 people one of which is not even a MJJC member wasn't really that significant. We are a lot more interested in keeping our members happy and not so much interested in the rumors non-members believe.

One person - and I believe it was Stella (or a person with same name) - jumped in and said it wasn't true. Told those people that they were discussing Cascio songs and they weren't banned. I appreciated the gesture. I actually appreciated it a lot because I believed that person was Stella and was willing to be a witness despite our personal difference. But I told that person (who I believed to be Stella) "thanks but it won't matter". And in the end it didn't. Those people kept ignoring a witness statement that what they were saying wasn't true.

If you are referring to a discussion during the drama surrounding Katherine and the kids then that was me (my Twitter name is not Stella though).

I do not find the situation totally comparable though, because it would mean that the Estate/Sony view (a large portion of) the hardcore fan base as unimportant (remember that at the time of the album release, the entire fanbase was talking about this). "Ah, let them moan about authenticity issues, we are marketing this album to the masses anyway." If that would be their attitude, then that would obviously be a worrying sign. I do not think they see us that way though, as the Bad 25 release proves that they do attempt to listen to what fans want (at least now). I therefore find it extremely difficult to believe that they would refuse to show proof if they had it. Especially because it would have been in their own best interest to do so.

Stella is a guy. He uses his dogs name as a username.


Stella is a guy. He uses his dogs name as a username.


Stella is a guy. He uses his dogs name as a username.


Stella is a guy. He uses his dogs name as a username.


Stella is a guy. He uses his dogs name as a username.


Hope this helps..

http://youtu.be/yLME18OF-K8?t=30s

 

[OnirMJ]

Calm down, guys. Remember that in the end we are all here because we love MJ and his music.

ivy, I do agree with Bumper that these tracks hurt, or rather, are a stain on MJ's legacy. I think whether you see these tracks as hurtful or not simply depends on whether you believe they feature fake vocals or not. I can understand your perspective, given that you think the songs do feature, at least in part, authentic vocals. In that case, you might disagree with the decision to 'finish' songs, especially songs that were in such an unfinished state. I have the same issue with some other tracks on 'Michael', like Hollywood Tonight which Teddy Riley (imo) unnecessarily altered to quite a large extent. But as much as I dislike that he did that, I do not really worry about it hurting MJ's legacy, as there is still authentic MJ on those songs. As I do not believe this to be the case for the Cascio songs, I do see them as a very ugly stain on his catalogue.

But Sony and the producers did not finish (vocals by adding Porte) or changed the Cascio songs drastically (like Teddy said). They just updated the music like they did on all other songs. Those vocals were there on demos which were sold to them by Cascios. And Cascios said that those vocals there are Michael Jackson's vocals. They did not say: "those vocals are some Michael Jackson + a lot of James Porte mixed together and autotuned to sound like it is one singer". So I don't understand what believers believe. How can they say that Cascios didn't betray Michael when they sold such songs to Sony and lied to them that it is 100% MJ. (lets assume that there is some MJ vocals on those songs).

 

[elapentela]

I think it is a censorship. If someone doesn't want to see it they should not enter the thread. It is not the reason why this thread should be so hard to find.

You are great, very active in this thread and I'm very grateful for all work you did regarding this issue. Although our beliefs are completly different.

And one more thing. Legacy don't stop when the artist die, legacy continues. And these songs damaged his legacy in my opinion.

I'm so happy you said it's your opinion. That's it.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

@ Bumper and Ivy :

We are not “defenders of MJ’s legacy”. Really, that sort of talk is why MJ fans have a reputation as being a bit on the cuckoo side. We don’t know MJ, he’s not a family member, and he’s not someone we have to protect. He’s a megastar, who’s now gone, and whose music we enjoy.

But where I do agree with Bumper is that IF the songs are fake, they DO have to be taken off the market. Posthumous releases do become a part of any artist’s discography, although with the proverbial “asterisk”. But certainly, it matters that there is now an album that is out, and that anyone can buy, and that indeed people will be buying (in some small volume, at least) for years to come. And so, IF the album does contain fake tracks, it needs to be purged from the market, or at least acknowledged officially as illegitimate. It’s a question of historical accuracy and ethics.

One doesn’t have to be a “defender of the legacy” to share this point of view: I’d say the same thing, and feel the same, about any artist, from Robert Johnson to Justin Bieber!

So what we have to do is to keep digging for the truth, which means try to find facts and testimonies that can shed light on the matter, whether in one way or the other. It means not focussing on “winning” over the other side, but actually trying to find new pieces of the puzzle.

Getting at least some info from Angelo Montrone was an example: it’s a small piece of the puzzle, but it’s something.

Stella talking to Branca was another piece of the puzzle, and it’s disappointing she won’t share with us what he said.

Frank saying he thinks the songs are real is another small piece.

The ULTIMATE piece of the puzzle would be to get Eddie, James, or indeed anyone from that group to say anything at all about that issue.

Ivy, how close did you get to getting Eddie to answer your questions in this regard?

Thanks for understanding my point of view and explaining it to Ivy. However, call me a cuckoo, but I must say that I do consider MJ as more than a friend that I'd defend no matter what, and even if I had to be banned for that. When he passed away, a part of me has gone too, that's why I am extremely sensitive when things surrounding MJ go wrong. For me those Cascio tracks without proof is something that has gone wrong and that still can be repaired. BAD 25 is already a good sign. But removing those tracks from MJ's official discography would be in everyone's best interest.

Now, I realize that there are people who want to buy and hear those Cascio tracks. I never said I was against the release of the Cascio songs. I said I was against the release of any controversial material without hard proof. So far every single person involved in those Cascio tracks has failed to provide us with not only a tiny proof, but any proof despite this relentless controversy. So, my suggestion has always been that as long as they don't provide hard proof on the controversial material, they should not release it at all, because it leads us to where we are now -- fighting.

Given the situation, it is true that I still can't understand how some members can defend such attitude to hold back the proof despite the on-going controversy, and at the same time claim that the proof exists without even seeing it.

 

[OnirMJ]

I'm so happy you said it's your opinion. That's it.

That's not "it". A LOT of people share that opinion.

 

[144000]

see this is the problem. Just because there's "no logical" reason for you that doesn't mean that I don't find their reasons logical. Just because you expect a certain way of behavior doesn't mean that I have to expect a certain way of behavior. so if you realize that not everyone is operating on your set of standards then you wouldn't write such negative things about their opinion.

for example while I was talking with Frank Cascio he named some people / fans and told me how badly such people treated him and his family. he told me that he wanted nothing to do with such people. Was he right? Yeah I think so. Not only I had seen such people curse his family - including even his mother and father , I had also received their hate and cursing just because of my opinion.

so you look to this and say "if there's fans asking question and if they have proof they have to show it. It's not logical not to show it" but I or someone else can look to it as "as these people have no respect whatsoever they want nothing to do with them, they would not even address them. It's logical".

so rather than attacking people for their opinion, perhaps it'll be best for you to realize that they might have a different approach to things. Every coin has two sides, don't forget that.

ps: I don't think Michael's legacy hurt btw. It's an exaggeration. He formed his legacy when alive. None of the songs - legit ot fake- released now will going to affect his legacy. Even the songs turn out to be fake, it'll be on the people that did it and not on Michael who is dead.

See? This also shows the different approaches. For you this event might be the "end of the world" as it hurt Michael's legacy. For me it might not be that significant as I believe nothing and I repeat nothing can hurt Michael's musical legacy.

and now here is where holding up a mirror to yourself before you speak, is very important. you described that two different people can see Logic in two different ways. perhaps that eliminates the word 'logic'. it takes away its relevance. because people are under the assumption that logic is supposed to mean a universal fact that everybody should think is right. but now, with your explanation, that is no longer valid. now..the most powerful word simply becomes 'opinion'. Now..people can determine other peoples' fate, or even their own, by their own 'everybody wants to rule the world' standards. i'll never forget that song by Tears For Fears..'everybody wants to rule the world. admittedly..that seems right. none of us wants to give ground..and if we're honest..we'll admit that.

actually, there is one thing i agree with you on...Michael established his legacy..there is no kryptonite, when it comes to MJ's legacy..and, to me...that includes what he did, financially. And i believe he did it alone. To me..he was better than houdini in life. To me, he was smarter than his lawyers. He knew when to switch lawyers, to win his child molestation case. that made him look more impressive to me, than his lawyers looked. i've never seen that before. we could go on, but i'd go way off topic, if i haven't already. but your statement about logic, was irresistable to respond to, in length.

But just because something has kryptonite resistance, doesn't mean that somebody should shoot at it with a gun, and try to kill superman anyway, for doing good on earth. That's the reason i believe in karma. Like QBee said...there has to be a deterrant to make people behave on some level..otherwise..their 'logic' can cause anarchy..they WILL do harm to other people..whether they believe it or not.


Now, on a lot of other things, we might disagree, as well.

 

[elapentela]

Immortal was a very poorly executed remix album, not long awaited studio album with unreleased material and it sold extremly badly. On that album was also one of the Cascio songs and I know people who refused to buy it because that song was included and Eddie Cascio was credited. I don't know what are you trying to say with that. I was refering to your post that 2MIL people would buy an album with just Cascio songs on it. There is no chance that that album would sell over 100 000 worldwide!

The kids will never ever support those tracks. And I'm sure that they'll request that all copies of MICHAEL album are withdrawn from sale and that the name Cascio is erased from Michael Jackson's discography.

Of course I should blame Eddie for selling Michael. Him and his whole family. Brothers, sisters and parents. They all know the truth. And of course their assistant James Porte. It is not the first time that someone betrayed or sold Michael. Many people who he considerd family betrayed him including his own blood LaToya... The only difference this time is that Cascios betrayed him after he died and that is even more sad and low because he can not defend himself anymore.

I think you are very mistaken regarding of the future Cascio's tracks and especially what MJ's kids
will do with them. I think you know really very little about the truth and you wish to offend people with your accusations. How sad. Good luck with your hopes regarding the future of MICHAEL album.

 

[144000]

I think you are very mistaken regarding of the future Cascio's tracks and especially what MJ's kids
will do with them. I think you know really very little about the truth and you wish to offend people with your accusations. How sad. Good luck with your hopes regarding the future of MICHAEL album.

you really think Paris Jackson will choose Eddie Cascio over her father?

Right now i want to use a star wars reference, but i will refrain.

anyway, Paris just got finished laughing at an Xfactor contestant that couldn't sing.

Nuff said.

If your dad was talented and someone defrauded him, would you choose the defrauder over your father?

 

[WildStyle]

If we want to talk conspiracy theories, I'd say the conspiracy theory is that it is MJ singing on these tracks, not that it isn't. Think about it. What proof do we actually have that Michael was involved in the creation of these songs? Nothing. Literally nothing. All we have is the word of Eddie Cascio and some vocals that don't sound like MJ. THAT sounds more like a conspiracy theory to me, especially considering all that a large portion of fans have done to shed light on the issue.

Just saying, if you want to put the "conspiracy theorist" tag on the doubters...

 

[ivy]

So you had empathy towards the doubters and asked Eddie to answer our questions, but he refused and all of sudden you had empathy for him because he refused. My, my, lol.

again twisting my words. I didn't have empathy towards Eddie because he refused. I had empathy towards Frank when he mentioned a certain person and how terribly that person disrespected his family including his mother. The same person and/or his group of his friends - that I did not know or had any previous communication - also had cursed me on the twitter out of the blue just because of my opinion. That's why I had empathy towards Frank, that's why I understood why he wanted to have nothing to do with certain people. It made sense, it seemed a logical argument.

I believe if for a second you can look behind the Cascio songs and you realize that a man was complaining about strangers on the internet harassing his mother you can have empathy towards him too.

Thinking "I don't care, his brother released these songs, his mother deserved the harassment, I don't care for their feelings, we are entitled the curse them and still expect them jump the hoops to answer our questions" is quite ruthless and unrealistic IMO.

ivy, I do agree with Bumper that these tracks hurt, or rather, are a stain on MJ's legacy. I think whether you see these tracks as hurtful or not simply depends on whether you believe they feature fake vocals or not. I can understand your perspective, given that you think the songs do feature, at least in part, authentic vocals.

thank you that was my point. Bumper is expecting me to conform to his standards and if I don't, he portray it as a bad thing. But he's totally ignoring that I don't share his opinions to start with and therefore my perspective is totally different.

If you are referring to a discussion during the drama surrounding Katherine and the kids then that was me (my Twitter name is not Stella though).

Oh I realized it was a MJJC member and a doubter and I thought it was Stella. Nice to know that it was you. Thank you btw, I appreciated the explanation and the defense.

I do not think they see us that way though, as the Bad 25 release proves that they do attempt to listen to what fans want (at least now).

will address this below.

you described that two different people can see Logic in two different ways. perhaps that eliminates the word 'logic'. the most powerful word simply becomes 'opinion'.

I'm fine with calling it an opinion. My main point was that we don't see the things similarly, we have different opinions, different things seem logical to us, we have different values and beliefs. so it's rather wrong to establish standards and expect people to conform to that.

We all operate based on our beliefs, values, culture and religion. For example I wrote on this thread for me the accusations towards the parties are problematic. That comes from my religion and the belief that one of the biggest sins is to accuse an innocent and how you would pay for it 7-fold. Some might be okay with easily accusing people of fraud, I am not. That's me. That doesn't have to be you. Similarly my religion tells me that kindness is a virtue that can open the doors to heaven. Some might be okay with using harsh words and curses, I am not. I believe in kindness and I believe in empathy. again that's me and that doesn't have to be you. and there are million things - such as my culture, values, belief, religion that shape my behavior. I find it funny when some classify the behavior as Cascio Queen or Pro-Branca. Sorry peeps but people are a lot deeper than that.

Similarly our experiences shape our opinions. Some might believe that Cascio's after 25 years can sell Michael in a heartbeat after his death. Well I had the personal experience of talking with one of them. My personal impression is that he cares about Michael. Some people have negative opinions about Branca without even knowing him or having any personal contact with him. We have several members on this thread that recently met him. You can ask them for their impressions about his honesty and trustfulness.

Also time is not constant, it changes, we get more information. When Michael album released we didn't have this much contact with the Estate, the online team was just being formed. Now it changed. We have a lot more contact. and they do learn from their mistakes and other people's mistakes as well. Bad25 is an example to this. Do you know how the Spike Lee documentary showing happened? They asked if our members would be interested in such a thing and when we said yes they arranged the fans to have a first look to it. For the Pepsi concert thingy they sent a list of possible names and asked if there was anyone that's problematic.

Nobody is perfect. It's a learning process and people might make mistakes. When Bumper asked "what did they do to make it right", I actually think they are trying to make it right by the way they approach to things, how now they maintain a better communication, how they give first access / first look to the fans and how they are even checking up stuff with fans.

Now you can stay in the past and keep a revenge or you can actually come to today realize the changes and start the forgiving process. It's a personal choice.

 

[144000]

again twisting my words. I didn't have empathy towards Eddie because he refused. I had empathy towards Frank when he mentioned a certain person and how terribly that person disrespected his family including his mother. The same person and/or his group of his friends - that I did not know or had any previous communication - also had cursed me on the twitter out of the blue just because of my opinion. That's why I had empathy towards Frank, that's why I understood why he wanted to have nothing to do with certain people. It made sense, it seemed a logical argument.

I believe if for a second you can look behind the Cascio songs and you realize that a man was complaining about strangers on the internet harassing his mother you can have empathy towards him too.

Thinking "I don't care, his brother released these songs, his mother deserved the harassment, I don't care for their feelings, we are entitled the curse them and still expect them jump the hoops to answer our questions" is quite ruthless and unrealistic IMO.




thank you that was my point. Bumper is expecting me to conform to his standards and if I don't, he portray it as a bad thing. But he's totally ignoring that I don't share his opinions to start with and therefore my perspective is totally different.




Oh I realized it was a MJJC member and a doubter and I thought it was Stella. Nice to know that it was you. Thank you btw, I appreciated the explanation and the defense.



will address this below.



I'm fine with calling it an opinion. My main point was that we don't see the things similarly, we have different opinions, different things seem logical to us, we have different values and beliefs. so it's rather wrong to establish standards and expect people to conform to that.

We all operate based on our beliefs, values, culture and religion. For example I wrote on this thread for me the accusations towards the parties are problematic. That comes from my religion and the belief that one of the biggest sins is to accuse an innocent and how you would pay for it 7-fold. Some might be okay with easily accusing people of fraud, I am not. That's me. That doesn't have to be you. Similarly my religion tells me that kindness is a virtue that can open the doors to heaven. Some might be okay with using harsh words and curses, I am not. I believe in kindness and I believe in empathy. again that's me and that doesn't have to be you. and there are million things - such as my culture, values, belief, religion that shape my behavior. I find it funny when some classify the behavior as Cascio Queen or Pro-Branca. Sorry peeps but people are a lot deeper than that.

Similarly our experiences shape our opinions. Some might believe that Cascio's after 25 years can sell Michael in a heartbeat after his death. Well I had the personal experience of talking with one of them. My personal impression is that he cares about Michael. Some people have negative opinions about Branca without even knowing him or having any personal contact with him. We have several members on this thread that recently met him. You can ask them for their impressions about his honesty and trustfulness.

Also time is not constant, it changes, we get more information. When Michael album released we didn't have this much contact with the Estate, the online team was just being formed. Now it changed. We have a lot more contact. and they do learn from their mistakes and other people's mistakes as well. Bad25 is an example to this. Do you know how the Spike Lee documentary showing happened? They asked if our members would be interested in such a thing and when we said yes they arranged the fans to have a first look to it. For the Pepsi concert thingy they sent a list of possible names and asked if there was anyone that's problematic.

Nobody is perfect. It's a learning process and people might make mistakes. When Bumper asked "what did they do to make it right", I actually think they are trying to make it right by the way they approach to things, how now they maintain a better communication, how they give first access / first look to the fans and how they are even checking up stuff with fans.

Now you can stay in the past and keep a revenge or you can actually come to today realize the changes and start the forgiving process. It's a personal choice.

what you call a harsh word, and what somebody else calls a harsh word are different. what you call kindness and somebody else calls kindness may be different. what you call vengeance may not be vengeance to someone else.

as i stated in a post to someone else..i guess it's a matter of waiting till that final day of judgement, and seeing what is right..and what truly was done, said..or thought wrong, according to whatever religion. Or not.

we'll even see who has the right definition of 'forgiveness' and who performed it correctly, and..who did not.

i guess we'll see what staff remains a staff and what staff becomes a snake, and which snake ends up eating which. who can sleep best at night. and who will never sleep again.

 

[elapentela]

you really think Paris Jackson will choose Eddie Cascio over her father?

Right now i want to use a star wars reference, but i will refrain.

anyway, Paris just got finished laughing at an Xfactor contestant that couldn't sing.

Nuff said.

If your dad was talented and someone defrauded him, would you choose the defrauder over your father?

I think Paris will be smarter growing up and won't accuse people of committing the crime without the proof. I'm positive that if she would ask Eddie about the proof for her private use, Eddie's attorney would definitely accept the request.

 

[144000]

I think Paris will be smarter growing up and won't accuse people of committing the crime without the proof. I'm positive that if she would ask Eddie about the proof for her private use, Eddie's attorney would definitely accept the request.

yeah, because Paris doesn't know her fathers voice, very well.

elepantela..one thing i've learned, is u cannot tell what people will buy on itunes by what they say online...all time. music reaches people on a level that no one can put a finger on. and so does...the lack of music.

i guess we'll all see if the real slim shady will please stand up, over a ten or moreso year period.

 

[elapentela]

yeah, because Paris doesn't know her fathers voice, very well. elepantela..one thing i've learned, is u cannot tell what people will buy on itunes by what they say online...all time. music reaches people on a level that no one can put a finger on. and so does...the lack of music.i guess we'll all see if the real slim shady will please stand up, over a ten or moreso year period.

I think just lately Paris admitted by herself she knows she is not very talented musically. I think it's very mature statement for 14-years old. And yes I'm very sure she does't know her father voice in every situation. And probably she will never be able to do a professional music expertise, even on her father recordings. Lack of ability as e musical expert doesn't take away her power in future decision making if she desire of course.

 

[144000]

I think just lately Paris admitted by herself she knows she is not very talented musically. I think it's very mature statement for 14-years old. And yes I'm very sure she does't know her father voice in every situation. And probably she will never be able to do a professional music expertise, even on her father recordings. Lack of ability as e musical expert doesn't take away her power in future decision making if she desire of course.

this ain't about lack of music expertise. this is about something different. something in the heart and soul. and if a person refuses to acknowledge that...no use in explaining. I think what is between Paris and her father is not for us to determine. but it doesn't feel like it's out of something cold and distant.

But..as with Michael...i guess each person decides what they want to hear that he said..and what they refuse to hear that he has said. And Paris too. We all hear what we want to hear. But...the truth is out there.

 

[ivy]

what you call a harsh word, and what somebody else calls a harsh word are different. what you call kindness and somebody else calls kindness may be different. what you call vengeance may not be vengeance to someone else.

uhmm perhaps you should pay attention to the part where I wrote "IMO" - in my opinion and twice said "That's me. That doesn't have to be you." I never said my standards are THE standards or I never said people need to conform to my standards. so what's the purpose of this post?

quite ruthless and unrealistic IMO.

That's me. That doesn't have to be you.