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Conrad Murray CNN interviews / Apr 2nd Anderson Cooper / April 5th Documentary

Thanks, Ivy, that presents a clearer picture. And, I think we'll never really know exactly what happened on that last night/morning, and Murray seems to be incapable of telling the truth -- and more than a little mentally unbalanced. That interview with Anderson Cooper was SCARY, in terms of how unbalanced Murray really is!
 
I have had my doubts about Michael and or AEG suspecting something. In an earlier post , about the negligent hiring, I asked when negligence begin- meaning if there were signs of trouble + knowledge of previous Dr Feelgoods around Michael , that could maybe be what Katherine means by negligent: the contract was not signed , AEG should not have proceeded with Murray. But then AEG are not doctors, and Michael wanted Murray so..

But I think the last draft of the contract was made on june 24th, so maybe , Michael and AEG just didn't have the time to sign it.

The incident with nurse Lee happened on june 21st- a sunday in the middle of 3 days off, right after the meeting at Carolwood with Ortega, Murray, etc - maybe murray was not available ? Michael didn't want to create more trouble by calling someone who was involved with the show ? An then on 23rd, Murray was back at Carolwood.

About Murray, i agree Autumn, Murray is not well at all, if he is questionned properly, he will be cornered in 3 questions, lose it and eventually say something true. You know , as he did when he admitted to the journalist that he left Michael's room for the phone calls, during the "take two" interview before his "documentary" (the one in which Michael's ghost would visit him at night). Anderson Cooper had a real opportunity , I think he was too soft with Murray.
 
bouee said:
But I think the last draft of the contract was made on june 24th, so maybe , Michael and AEG just didn't have the time to sign it.

The incident with nurse Lee happened on june 21st- a sunday in the middle of 3 days off, right after the meeting at Carolwood with Ortega, Murray, etc - maybe murray was not available ? Michael didn't want to create more trouble by calling someone who was involved with the show ? An then on 23rd, Murray was back at Carolwood.
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Yeah, but 2 things:

1. According to reports, the unsigned contract was found in Murray's car. (Signed by Murray only.) If Murray had the contract in his car, why didn't he just bring it into the house, and have Michael sign it right then and there.

2. If Nurse Lee came over to see Michael because Murray was unavailable, why would Michael be asking Nurse Lee if she knew anybody who could give (or get him) some Propofol. If she were just making a house call because he was not feeling well, there would have been no need to ask her any questions regarding Propofol. As far as I'm concerned, that would have never come into the conversation.
 
I see people on the internet saying "If Michael wanted Murray why didn't he sign the contract?" but this shows that those people apparently did not follow the trial and aren't that knowledgeable about the timeline of events.

This is what we know :

Michael told Gongaware he wanted Murray. Gongaware called him, Murray said he wanted $5Million, Gongaware said no way.

Multiple people tried to get Michael change his mind, he wanted Murray offered him $150,000 a month. Gongaware called him again, Murray agreed.

Gongaware then referred Murray to Wooley. Wooley talked to Murray gathered some information.

Wooley then went to Jorrie - an outside counsel AEG uses - and asked her to prepare the contract.

Jorrie started working on it, it took some time. She finished the first draft , sent it to Wooley on June 15. Wooley approved the contract and gave Jorrie Murray's contact information.

Jorrie contacted Murray and they talked multiple times (2 at least I believe) and made changes to the first draft. Their last talk was June 23rd. Jorrie finalized the contract on June 24 and sent it to Murray. Murray signed it and faxed it back to Jorrie on June 24th.

There just wasn't any time for AEG and Michael to sign the contract.

I will think that Jorrie would then get the signed contract to Wooley. Wooley would get AEG rep - probably Phillips - to sign it and then the contract would make its way to Michael for his signature.
 
ivy said:
I will think that Jorrie would then get the signed contract to Wooley. Wooley would get AEG rep - probably Phillips - to sign it and then the contract would make its way to Michael for his signature.
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I "thought" there was some type of stipulation that AEG would only sign the contract AFTER Michael signed the contract. I don't where it was, maybe this board, but I do recall reading something along those lines.

Do you know if that was correct?

Also, wasn't there a SECOND CONTRACT, which Michael had to sign related to the hiring of Murray?
 
I don't know a second contract.

See if it was me in the place of AEG, I would have wanted Michael to sign the contract in front of me with witnesses to avoid any future problems.
 
Big Apple2 said:
Yeah, but 2 things:

1. According to reports, the unsigned contract was found in Murray's car. If Murray had the contract in his car, why didn't he just bring it into the house, and have Michael sign it right then and there.
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I don't think Murray intentionally killed Michael. Maybe he just didn't want to talk about it right after a rehearsal, maybe he just just thought he would have him read it and sign it the day after, when Michael would have "rested" (or was awake but still under the influence of whatever Murray was giving him, as we heard on the recording) .

Big Apple2 said:
2. If Nurse Lee came over to see Michael because Murray was unavailable, why would Michael be asking Nurse Lee if she knew anybody who could give (or get him) some Propofol. If she were just making a house call because he was not feeling well, there would have been no need to ask her any questions regarding Propofol. As far as I'm concerned, that would have never come into the conversation.
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Nurse Lee didn't come, she was in Florida, one of the bodygaurds called her on her cell. Michael trusted her, since he asked her for propofol. But that was in march, nurse Lee said she didn't hear from Michael after march, until that call on june 21st, and she didn't hear from him after that call.

What I suspect, is that Murray was giving Michael far too much benzos, knowingly, and voluntarily. i have been suspecting that since the trial, for several reasons :
-he was buying a lot of them, all injectebales.
-he was buying a lot of antidotes to the benzos, as if he was risking an overdose on benzos very often (a detail I remember from the trial : one of the doctors mentionned that antidote while on the stand, the camera was on Murray , and I clearly saw him say "f*ck !", clearly Murray didn't want that particular drug mentionned - it's a drug that can block the effects of benzos, but has no effect on propofol)
-the potential amount that was given to Michael on the last night, was possibly, incredibly high (not confirmed though).
- the flu like symptoms on june 19th could be related to benzodiazepines, among other things

That's what I want to know from him. So far there hasn't been proof of anything, so it's only a suspicion. Michael knew what benzos are, and what they do to you, it's different from propofol. Was he suspecting anything ? Was he feeling trapped by Murray so close to the shows ? - I sincerely hope he didn't.

i see several reasons for Murray to that : 1- it's less dangerous than propofol, it makes his job easier. 2- After a while, you become dependant, insomnia would have gotten worse .. he would have been needed.. as long as Michael didn't find out.

This is the big question I have, and if Murray won't testify, a good journalist could make it happen and get Murray to talk (or sing it), and either confirm it, or clear the doubts.
 
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bouee said:
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What I suspect, is that Murray was giving Michael far too much benzos, knowingly, and voluntarily. i have been suspecting that since the trial, for several reasons :
-he was buying a lot of them, all injectebales.
-he was buying a lot of antidotes to the benzos, as if he was risking an overdose on benzos very often (a detail I remember from the trial : one of the doctors mentionned that antidote while on the stand, the camera was on Murray , and I clearly saw him say "f*ck !", clearly Murray didn't want that particular drug mentionned - it's a drug that can block the effects of benzos, but has no effect on propofol)
...
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I thought I saw that mouthed, too. Odd.
The propofol is one thing, but this whole situation with the benzos seemed odd - I always wondered if that was Murray's way to somehow 'bind' himself to Michael. Instead of screaming "Demerol!!!", someone should have wondered about Murray knowingly creating an unhealthy situation on purpose.
Murray was clearly aware of the benzos potentially being a hazard - the flumazenil was quite obvious.
Murray knew full well that this 'situation' was not normal. Any responsible physician administering would know that he/she would have to be prepared for adverse reactions. So the presence of the flumazenil makes it glaringly obvious how ill equipped Murray was about administrating propofol in a home setting.

And I don't understand why Murray didn't prescribe him something like an SSRI, for example paroxetine - known as paxil in the US. It has helped many people with PTSD symptoms, anxiety and depression - and it is sedating in a sense that it helps many people sleeping as well. It is also used to treat many anxiety disorders and even in combination with sleep disorders and other disorders where sleep issues crop up as a sleep disorder.
It's still an antidepressant, but that is far milder than throwing benzos at Michael!
I think Michael even took paxil in the past? If Murray keeps talking about 'pain and depression' - then what the hell did he do to help Michael with these symptoms?
The right meds could have helped in within a few weeks. Instead he drugged him with benzos that most certainly leave a hangover feeling the next morning.

Sleep disorder specialists also have other drugs at their disposal that help you to get through the day when excessive daytime sleepiness and nightly insomnia are an issue.

There is so much more that could have been done to help Michael. Treat his anemia with long studied drugs and within 2 weeks he would have felt much better.
You administer and hear you patient SNORE - and you take that as 'everything is in the clear"? Yikes. Every nurse in any OR recovery room knows better. One of the first questions in a sleep center is "Has anybody told you that you snore a lot while sleeping?".

...Was he feeling trapped by Murray so close to the shows ? - I sincerely hope he didn't.
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You're not the only one who has wondered about that. :(
 
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Flumazenil was the name of the drug. And if Michael was feeling trapped all he had to do was not call him to come over
 
Pace said:
I thought I saw that mouthed, too. Odd.
The propofol is one thing, but this whole situation with the benzos seemed odd - I always wondered if that was Murray's way to somehow 'bind' himself to Michael. Instead of screaming "Demerol!!!", someone should have wondered about Murray knowingly creating an unhealthy situation on purpose.



You're not the only one who has wondered about that. :(
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I guess it can't be scientifically proven... The trial went far enough into that to create a doubt, but could not precisely answer the question. Since benzos come in pills too, you would have to prove the amount given AND that they were injected, which I guess is only possible for the last night. ...

Crazy as he is, I hope Murray will "accidently" explain it.. After seeing the kind of shows he puts up in each interview, it still could happen.
 
Justthefacts said:
Flumazenil was the name of the drug. And if Michael was feeling trapped all he had to do was not call him to come over
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yes, but ...he wouldn't have been able to "sleep" then, and the shows were 2-3 weeks away.
 
athina_livadi said:
Some of us have been aware of his insomnia problem for 20 years. We also have been aware of his use of pain killers when he got that damn burn back in 1984and on. We also have been aware of Demerol, Zanax and other pain killers. Let's put ourselves in his place for a moment! We got a very painful burn in our sculp that demanded continuous treatment and rebuild operations over the years. In addition to that we have lupus and vitiligo with very painful and stressful symptoms throughout our life. In 1993 we get accused of child molestation and our psychological state collapses. Until 2003 we never stop fighting lawsuits, the media, the public. In 2003 there are other accusations of child molestation, we get arrested and brought to court in 2005. The social services try to take our children away from us and the court decision has been decided before...GUILTY because we are who we are!!!
Conclusion, if any of us was in Michael's place I don't think we would have survived all this without getting crazy!!! Yet Michael managed to get up and continue no matter how much he hurt inside and out!!!
So don't tell me about addictions and stuff. The man was a hero to be able to survive all this hell of his called life!!!
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:thanks_sign:
 
bouee said:
Crazy as he is, I hope Murray will "accidently" explain it.. After seeing the kind of shows he puts up in each interview, it still could happen.
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Be careful what you wish for as it mightn't be what you want to hear. This is what he said to A Cooper:
MURRAY: One thing I would like to say, I wish that one day I get a chance to tell all Michael's fans, people who really, really love him, what happened to Michael. They would really want to know. If they do find out, their heart would cringe and they would be in blatant pain.

Why he chose those words that we would be in pain if we found out? I can only imagine, but I don't want to hear, as it is only his side of the story and most likely not true either.

I just wish we never ever have to hear from him again, but that is not going to be the case.
He loves to hear his own voice and he thinks he is celebrity.
 
Bubs said:
Be careful what you wish for as it mightn't be what you want to hear. This is what he said to A Cooper:
MURRAY: One thing I would like to say, I wish that one day I get a chance to tell all Michael's fans, people who really, really love him, what happened to Michael. They would really want to know. If they do find out, their heart would cringe and they would be in blatant pain.

Why he chose those words that we would be in pain if we found out? I can only imagine, but I don't want to hear, as it is only his side of the story and most likely not true either.

I just wish we never ever have to hear from him again, but that is not going to be the case.
He loves to hear his own voice and he thinks he is celebrity.
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Murray is so much of a loose-cannon, there's no way to know what would spill out of his mouth?

What I think this is? I think he's doing PR for a book he intends to write! As some Jacksons did, throwing a lot out there of "what will be revealed," for which there was actually no substance. I'd say in terms of Murray, duct-tape is a useful item to put over his mouth!
 
Bubs said:
Be careful what you wish for as it mightn't be what you want to hear. This is what he said to A Cooper:
MURRAY: One thing I would like to say, I wish that one day I get a chance to tell all Michael's fans, people who really, really love him, what happened to Michael. They would really want to know. If they do find out, their heart would cringe and they would be in blatant pain.

Why he chose those words that we would be in pain if we found out? I can only imagine, but I don't want to hear, as it is only his side of the story and most likely not true either.

I just wish we never ever have to hear from him again, but that is not going to be the case.
He loves to hear his own voice and he thinks he is celebrity.
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Talk about no remorse! Causing Michael to die and then try to emotionally threaten those who love him?? What kind of a$%^&*( does that?

The man is a dangerous on all levels. To use his dead patient to basically extort people on an emotional level. There's no word describing the disgust.
 
Bubs said:
Be careful what you wish for as it mightn't be what you want to hear. This is what he said to A Cooper:
MURRAY: One thing I would like to say, I wish that one day I get a chance to tell all Michael's fans, people who really, really love him, what happened to Michael. They would really want to know. If they do find out, their heart would cringe and they would be in blatant pain.

Why he chose those words that we would be in pain if we found out? I can only imagine, but I don't want to hear, as it is only his side of the story and most likely not true either.

I just wish we never ever have to hear from him again, but that is not going to be the case.
He loves to hear his own voice and he thinks he is celebrity.
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Well, I'd rather know the truth, than not know. But i understand that since it will not change anything, some don't want to know.

And about that "promise" i thought he was inspired by La Toya to sell his book, and make himself important... I wouldn't believe anything that comes from him in this kind of interview, it's too soft. You would have to push him a little bit more than what Anderson Cooper did.
 
bouee said:
Well, I'd rather know the truth, than not know. But i understand that since it will not change anything, some don't want to know.
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but it is not necessary the truth what he says. We know by now that he believes he is innocent and everybody is out there to get him. I wouldn't be surprised if he says MJ killed himself just to cause troubles to CM, he is that crazy.
 
well I guess if someone asked him about the pharamcist invoices and ask him why such an amount of injectable benzos + such an amount of flumazenil , we would get : "take two" or a song about a poor med student who had trouble understanding the pharmacology class because of an evil teacher. Or the pharamcist overcharged him and he didn't notice, several times.
 
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Pace said:
Problem is that he's willing to say anything. Murray could say awful things and besides your heart hurt you'd be wondering if he's just lying to deflect from himself. Per usual.
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Call me crazy but I think Murray actually has recorded Michael. Remember the tabloid stories that Murray had a recording of Michael talking negatively about his family? In his Anderson interview he said Michael shared with him everything. No one could understood why he recorded Michael at May.

So my crazy mind tells me that Murray recorded all their talks with Michael and he will release a book with audio and that one would sell and wouldn't face any credibility issues.
 
Yeah, that's awful thought, Ivy. Yuck. Problem is that he could always intermingle stuff just as psychos do. Throw in a midget of truth and then lather on the awful mix of reality and parallel universes on top.

I just hope that he has panicked in the meantime and erased cr*& out of fear to incriminate himself. I remember the tech saying that the recorded had been deleted from the phone and the only way he was able to retrieve it was that nothing else had been recorded which was the only he was able to retrieve the deleted recording - because no other information was put on the drive.

My iPhone is usually full to the max - so he can't have that much stuff unless of course he hoarded all these recordings after copying them onto a computer first.

And a big thumbs down again to Boteach for making that approach 'accepted', even if that originally happened with his consent. What creeps.
 
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Bubs said:
but it is not necessary the truth what he says. We know by now that he believes he is innocent and everybody is out there to get him. I wouldn't be surprised if he says MJ killed himself just to cause troubles to CM, he is that crazy.
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oh he almost said that during his "documentary" !

I think he remembers very well what happened, but will lie as much as he can. remember the interview just before the documentary aired ? I think it was the Channel 4 journalist, so the UK version (the take two interview I think). That journalist got him to admit he left the room during the phone calls on june 25th, for much longer than 2 or 5 mn. Same thing with the "f*uck" during the trial. He remembers but he is so scared of admitting his guilt it makes him go crazy.

He gets angry and loses control of himself very easily. That's why I think someone who really knows the case, and is willing to push him and is not afraid of him, can make him say things he doesn't want to say. I think that's one of the resaons why he did not testify. Walgren would have done it. Maybe not about everything, but a lot more could have come out.
 
Bubs said:
but it is not necessary the truth what he says. We know by now that he believes he is innocent and everybody is out there to get him. I wouldn't be surprised if he says MJ killed himself just to cause troubles to CM, he is that crazy.
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Yeah, that's very reminiscent of him rambling on about "forgiving Michael" for causing 'trouble' for him.

That is the problem with dangerous folk and abusive people like him. They will take one tiny aspect from your life and then interweave it with their own made up stuff. And it becomes very difficult for many people to separate the tiny slices of 'truth' from nonsense. Abusers do that all the time with those they abuse. Take those insinuations and nonsense about personal hygiene etc. Abusers will jump on anything and make it out to be the most awful thing in the world, trying to turn people against the person they actually abuse.

Murray with his domestic violence past fits the profile to a T, it's scary.
There are a ton of domestic violence offenders that abuse their victims with constant talk about them 'being slobs', 'horrible at cleaning' etc. And Murray putting down the person he killed right in the first police interview is quite the profile, too.
 
ivy said:
Call me crazy but I think Murray actually has recorded Michael. Remember the tabloid stories that Murray had a recording of Michael talking negatively about his family? In his Anderson interview he said Michael shared with him everything. No one could understood why he recorded Michael at May.

So my crazy mind tells me that Murray recorded all their talks with Michael and he will release a book with audio and that one would sell and wouldn't face any credibility issues.
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i don't think you're crazy, I think it's something he would do.
 
ivy said:
Call me crazy but I think Murray actually has recorded Michael. Remember the tabloid stories that Murray had a recording of Michael talking negatively about his family? In his Anderson interview he said Michael shared with him everything. No one could understood why he recorded Michael at May.

So my crazy mind tells me that Murray recorded all their talks with Michael and he will release a book with audio and that one would sell and wouldn't face any credibility issues.
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That is what I've always thought, I just hope he never took any photos of Michael whilst in a Murray induced coma. This is one reason why I felt restitution was important.
 
How legal is that, recording someone without his knowledge or consent especially between a doctor and a patient?
 
Above where MJ was supposed to sign reads:

"The undersigned hereby confirms that he has requested Producer to engage Dr. Murray on the terms set forth herein on behalf of and at the expense of the undersigned."

Doesn't this language make it clear that CM was hired at MJ's request and at his expense? Doesn't this shoot a huge hole in KJ's claims of negligent hiring??
 
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