DuranDuran;4277880 said:
The point I'm talking about is not that the rock fans in the Steve Hoffman forum are directly racist, but they might be segregated. The majority of rock fans are white males. When there were AOR (album oriented rock) stations, the playlist had very few non-white acts and few women performers. Like Jimi Hendrix plus Heart/Pat Benatar for the female artists. Most of the biggest record sellers in history are rock acts, and a lot of the biggest selling albums are rock. Rock n roll is considered white music even though it originated with black artists and black music. The audience for country music is also primarily white people, so segregated in the same way. Also rock fans often go for the guitarist and maybe the drummer over the singer. Like Sammy Hagar replacing David Lee Roth did not make that much of a difference in the popularity of Van Halen. But Eddie Van Halen could not be replaced with another guitarist. Eddie has a particular playing style. Lionel Richie leaving the Commodores did hurt the band and so did Mike leaving The Jacksons, but they are R&B groups, where the lead singer is more the focus than the guitarist. Going by that, it can be understood that the average Beatles/classic rock might fan not dig Michael Jackson music. Not because he's black per se, but because he is not a rock act and does not have the same image. In the same way, it's unlikely there's going to be a lot of discussion about Bob Dylan, U2, & Bruce Springsteen on a forum about funk music.
Mike does not play guitar solos or drum solos and dancing is unimportant for rock n roll. Dancing & choreography is more a thing for R&B related acts. Even the average dance music & disco artist do not dance such as Depeche Mode, Donna Summer, & Pet Shop Boys. Music video plots are not that important for rock either, many are just stage performance videos. So how well Mike can dance or his music video production does not really matter to them. They do not like The Beatles because of their videos, but because of their music. Music videos were not even really a thing in the 1960s. Some were made, but they were rarely if ever broadcast on TV. If a music act wanted to be seen, they went on a TV show like Ed Sullivan or American Bandstand. The Beatles popularity in the USA primarily started because of their Ed Sullivan appearance. There was no MTV for them.
You’re making some very valid points there, and I’d like to offer my “white rock fan” perspective on this.
To me, music is something very personal, and the music that I grew up on will always remain close to my heart. As a kid, I didn’t get to choose which music was available to me. I listened to whatever was on the radio, on the TV, and in my family’s record collections, which happened to be mostly what would be considered rock music. So, growing up, my personal taste evolved from that foundation, and I found my place in the rock and metal community.
I’ve always kept an ear on other music to check out, and frequently branched out into blues, jazz, classical etc., but for most of the time I listened to rock and metal, and the majority of concerts I attended were rock and metal shows.
So I can confirm that the expectations that I, as a rock fan, have when I go to see a show are quite different from the expectations a pop or R&B fan might have.
In most of rock and metal (There are exceptions, of course!), authenticity is key. Most people you see on stage are not much different from who they are offstage. You rarely see any choreographed moves or wild costumes, it is expected that everyone sings live and plays their instruments live, and lip syncing is frowned upon to a point where it may kill your career when you’re caught doing it. In return, the audience is very forgiving when someone screws up on stage. It’s considered human to make mistakes, and it’s not expected that a song played live sounds exactly as it does on the album. We all just want to have a fun time. That said, people screw up very rarely. The level of skills and professionality is just as high as in any other genre.
If you’re not familiar with current rock music, please check out this live video from a favorite band of mine, H.E.A.T. from Sweden, live at Sweden Rock Festival 2018. I’m interested to hear everyone’s opinion, especially from those who don’t usually listen to rock.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/75vZNQbHTzM" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
As you can see, this is very different from, say, the Dangerous Tour footage. It’s funny now, being here on this forum, to admit that the idea to see MJ live in the 90’s never appealed to me. But if you see where I’m coming from, it does make sense.
So, I agree with the sentiment that both cultures in some ways exist in parallel worlds that rarely touch. But it has honestly never occurred to me to attribute this to some kind of low-level racism. Sure, take any large enough sample of people, and you’ll find some racists among them, but at least from my European perspective, their percentage in the rock and metal community is not higher than in any other community.
Back in the day when Guns ’n Roses appeared on the scene, no one here (Germany) was talking about Slash’s skin color, for instance. Then there’s another band called King’s X that’s highly regarded in the metal scene, and their singer and bass player Dug Pinnick is black, and I can’t remember that being a huge topic in the metal magazines at the time. This is him:
He grew up on Motown music, and this is what his band sounded like when they first rose to fame:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/J2SYPzKzD94" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
King’s X is an interesting example, because their sound is also heavily influenced by the Beatles. Again, let me know what you think.
Then we have, of course, the example of the Brazilian groove-metal band Sepultura, that featured the percussion group Olodum on their album “Roots”. Yes, the Olodum from MJ’s TDCAU film.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/F_6IjeprfEs" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
This is not something I listen to personally, because I don’t enjoy that singing style. :laughing: But I’m interested in your opinion.
My experience is that whenever there is some kind of crossover that works for the rock and metal trained ear, it’s usually welcomed with open arms, and the lack of crossover between the genres, to me, seems to be mainly rooted in the major differences of the art form itself and its presentation, that you pointed out.
So, please don’t let a handful of racist
keep you from exploring the rock and metal genre. I can’t talk for the specific community that was the reason to start this thread, but the rock and metal community in general is usually very welcoming and open-minded, and we need more people to cross over and mix, so that the few racists that you’ll find in any group of people don’t stand a chance.
Horns up!
unk:
