BAD25 - designated Discussion Thread

[Zakk]

Re: What could have helped the Wembley DVD...

it's obvious, should've been bothered to look through the archives and realised they had the original BAD Tour Footage in there all along, released Minneapolis 1988 in Cinemas and released on Blu-Ray/DVD with DTS-HD Master Audio.

 

[AtlasAir]

Re: What could have helped the Wembley DVD...

Oh, and another thing. There's the Queen Live At Wembley 25th anniversary 2-DVD set with BOTH nights they played there.
Obviously, I don't think they need 2 or all 7 of the Wembley shows, but it DOES make me wish that they did a disc 2 release.
It could have been a U.S. arena show OR EVEN Yokohama! Just because it's made the rounds on the internets for years doesn't mean it's worthless. It was actually filmed with more cameras for a televised release, and it would have been a nice contrast to see how the show was in the early stages. (I still can't believe they didn't give the 2nd leg of the tour the Yokohama treatment. Not even the Tokyo Dome shows..)

-----

Anyway,

I made a really quick video of the Wembley footage with the Rome rear-stage camera.
Obviously, there's only like less than a minute worth of footage from the Rome TV thing, so this is just to get an idea of how those shots mesh and would enhance the show.

Sequence 01 1

If not just one videographer at the back of the stage, there may have been another at the bottom or right side too.
And because the show was so tight with the music and moves, it literally could be any Wembley show or any stadium (provided the outfits on the band and dancers are the same, and the shot where you can see the city banner aren't there.)


Just sayin'. Someone could have went through the tapes to find more coverage for an already limited view of the concert(s).

As you can tell, I've spent WAY too much time thinking about this.

 

[Rudolf]

Re: What could have helped the Wembley DVD...

Oh, and another thing. There's the Queen Live At Wembley 25th anniversary 2-DVD set with BOTH nights they played there.
Obviously, I don't think they need 2 or all 7 of the Wembley shows, but it DOES make me wish that they did a disc 2 release.

Well they released the famous 2nd night in 2003 already as a standalone DVD. VHS of it was released already more than 10 years before. Only 2 years ago they re-released it with 2nd night added as a bonus. I think Brian May said that they would never release the 1st night because they have no rushes from it (just like MJ Wembley), but it was a good material for a bonus DVD.
I think it will take a long time yet until we will get another Bad concert.

 

[Zakk]

Re: What could have helped the Wembley DVD...

Well they released the famous 2nd night in 2003 already as a standalone DVD. VHS of it was released already more than 10 years before. Only 2 years ago they re-released it with 2nd night added as a bonus. I think Brian May said that they would never release the 1st night because they have no rushes from it (just like MJ Wembley), but it was a good material for a bonus DVD.
I think it will take a long time yet until we will get another Bad concert.

indeed, and the quality for the queen vhs is imo 5x better than wembley 88' for Michael. which i dont get at all but yes, i agree with you. if we ever do get another release of a BAD Tour show, i hope it is done with care, not like bucharest, but not as limited crowd shots as wembley, for example man in the mirror, where he stands up straight with his arms spread, i think that should be a shot from the back of the stage. show i would go for is Minneapolis May 1988, as we've heard the audio from the 2010 Blu-Ray release of Moonwalker, its DTS-HD Multi channel, which to me is perfect, much better than dolby digital. as david powell revealed, they have had all the original bad tour footages in the archive all along, including the film reel footage shot by patrick kelley, im sure Minneapolis was shot on film, as we have various footage from that show and it looks like a tape transfer of a film reel to me, and the two film reel song's as officially released on BAD25 & moonwalker. i just hope they work on it for a few years, to make it perfect, and work with people who worked on the tour with michael, including david as audio mixer.

 

[Rudolf]

Re: What could have helped the Wembley DVD...

indeed, and the quality for the queen vhs is imo 5x better than wembley 88' for Michael.

It wasn't taken from VHS in first place. It's taken from masters. And it looks ok (it somehow depends on angles and cameras in this case. The handheld ones seemed to be of best quality), but clearly not as good as this though http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WiBx0DDK9g

I really don't think another Bad concert will come any time soon, so I'd suggest we just forget it for now. Hopefully we'll get another Dangerous concert though for Dangerous 25.

 

[Zakk]

Re: What could have helped the Wembley DVD...

It wasn't taken from VHS in first place. It's taken from masters. And it looks ok (it somehow depends on angles and cameras in this case. The handheld ones seemed to be of best quality), but clearly not as good as this though http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WiBx0DDK9g

I really don't think another Bad concert will come any time soon, so I'd suggest we just forget it for now. Hopefully we'll get another Dangerous concert though for Dangerous 25.

HD show early 1992, with warm up show in Munich June 25th. anywhere from Munich to Wembley will do for me

 

[AtlasAir]

Re: What could have helped the Wembley DVD...

They weren't shot in HD.
Unless you're just throwing around the term HD loosely again.

And like Rudolf said, they didn't use VHS. They had the master copy of the show(s).

And despite what those people said about filming shows, I think they might remember things wrong or worded things in a misleading way (Pecky and Kelly).

I don't think an entire show was was ever shot on film from start to finish. Not Minneapolis, especially.

They just probably filmed a lot of APOM and MITM and crowd work, as well as behind the scenes stuff.

 

[HappyLeeHL]

Re: What could have helped the Wembley DVD...

I'm actually OK with them using a VHS tape as a source, if they hadn't ruined it (or as they call it, "enhancing"). Any video encoder would do a better enhancing job. Not to mention they ruined the mulitracks, too. They think they can do everything right, but instead it would be better if they had just do nothing and just give us the direct VHS rip with Go flying's wonderful audio mix.

But it's too late. I guess we may never see any official bad tour in years...

 

[AtlasAir]

Re: What could have helped the Wembley DVD...

What's wrong with the audio of the DVD?
I just think the 5.1 mix was done poorly. MJ's vocals should have been in the center channel.

And also re-creating audio effects done in the show (like the echos on Human Nature).

 

[Rudolf]

Re: What could have helped the Wembley DVD...

What's wrong with the audio of the DVD?
I just think the 5.1 mix was done poorly. MJ's vocals should have been in the center channel.

And also re-creating audio effects done in the show (like the echos on Human Nature).

I think Dave could answer you. Since he's not here I'd just rather post his thoughts regarding this. He's referring to whole mixing process.

The DVD is pretty much nearly as awful as the BAD25 MITM mix. It was all I could do not to walk out of the theatre at that point in the movie.

still the DVD mix is just plain awful and poor quality work. Why take michael's voice which sounds warm and sweet on the source multis and mix it so that it sounds hard and shrill?

why make one of the workd's best drummers sound no better than a cheap sample machine.

all the individual tracks are hideously gated and WAY overcompressed. The surround audience tracks are treated with additional and totally out of character reverb when there was absolutely no need. And on and on and on.....

i guess it's down to the Peter principle

I suspect the estate did not release those mixes because they wanted to:
a)remix everything thinking that they could do a better job lol
b) make mixing decisions that were contrary to those approved by MJ so many years ago.

Whilst any artistic judgement is obviously subjective, there are nevertheless empirical and objective reasons why the end result is badly flawed from a technical perspective.

Why are the Spike Lee doc re-edited live concert scenes not in tight sync?

why do the centre channel drums on 5.1 mixes sound like really cheap samples?

why on earth would anyone process the surround channels and add entirely innapropriate reverb?

The only possible explanation is utter incompetence and the ignorance of not knowing better that stems from sheer arrogance.

Last question for those who may want to think about these things..... BAD25 video was claimed to be sourced from MJ's personal VHS copy. All the original source materials were finally located in MJ's archives yet the estate claimed that MJ's vhs vid found on his nightstand was the only remaining video copy.

Also read here http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...niversary-edition.285161/page-12#post-8174272

 

[Zakk]

Re: What could have helped the Wembley DVD...

What's wrong with the audio of the DVD?
I just think the 5.1 mix was done poorly. MJ's vocals should have been in the center channel.

And also re-creating audio effects done in the show (like the echos on Human Nature).

the point that rudolf is trying to get across, is the fact that they screwed up an already perfect sound to the audio, as mixed by david powell... just listen to these remastered snippets of the original mixes. THIS is how the audio shouldve sounded:

 

[Galactus123]

Re: What could have helped the Wembley DVD...

They weren't shot in HD.
Unless you're just throwing around the term HD loosely again.

And like Rudolf said, they didn't use VHS. They had the master copy of the show(s).

And despite what those people said about filming shows, I think they might remember things wrong or worded things in a misleading way (Pecky and Kelly).

I don't think an entire show was was ever shot on film from start to finish. Not Minneapolis, especially.

They just probably filmed a lot of APOM and MITM and crowd work, as well as behind the scenes stuff.

From what we heard heard I'm sure that full concerts were shot on film. Many concerts actually. I don't think these persons are lying:

http://icolorist.com/grading-michael-jackson/
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...-film/page14?p=3786601&viewfull=1#post3786601

They worked on the film reels personally so I don't think they are remembering wrong what they filmed. Also Go Flying said that he heard that Liverpool concert was shot on film. Also Moonwalker MITM had great audio from the Minneapolis concert like Zakk said so I'm sure they didn't film just 2 songs.

 

[Rudolf]

Re: What could have helped the Wembley DVD...

From what we heard heard I'm sure that full concerts were shot on film. Many concerts actually. I don't think these persons are lying:

http://icolorist.com/grading-michael-jackson/
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...-film/page14?p=3786601&viewfull=1#post3786601

They worked on the film reels personally so I don't think they are remembering wrong what they filmed. Also Go Flying said that he heard that Liverpool concert was shot on film. Also Moonwalker MITM had great audio from the Minneapolis concert like Zakk said so I'm sure they didn't film just 2 songs.

That's all very amazing and we know the footage was once shot on film, but the only problem is the lack of this material. Or lack of will or money to release it. Or other things that stay in the way. I think we should really just never expect any Bad tour Blu-Ray unless a miracle happens. Because you really need one here.

On the positive side (and off-topic too) the Freddie Mercury & MJ tracks are coming. I heard possibly before Christmas.

 

[AtlasAir]

Pecky might not be the best person to go by because, as he said, he was only on the tour for the first leg.
And I doubt a FULL show was shot on film (because of the Yokohama concert).

And the colorist for the APOM video. I'd love to ask him in really specific terms if he knew of a concert(s) being filmed in it's entiretey for the purpose of a supposed show.

I mean, if one plans to shoot a whole concert (regardless if they want to spread it out over 1 or several shows) plans need to be made (more film stock, angles, cranes, towers, etc etc).

Yokohama, which was shot on TAPE, was obviously thought out well in advance and there were several extra camera people in addition to the 4 main jumbo-tron cams.

Based on what we know and have seen, I still think these people might remember things in a different way.

I don't doubt that there are film based footage of stuff that is NOT crowd shots/APOM/MITM material, but it probably isn't consistent, let alone shot with an intent to edit together.

Just because there was new footage we never saw of APOM in Bad 25 from Minneapolis doesn't mean at all that the entire show was shot on film.

/bla

 

[Galactus123]

Pecky might not be the best person to go by because, as he said, he was only on the tour for the first leg.
And I doubt a FULL show was shot on film (because of the Yokohama concert).

And the colorist for the APOM video. I'd love to ask him in really specific terms if he knew of a concert(s) being filmed in it's entiretey for the purpose of a supposed show.

I mean, if one plans to shoot a whole concert (regardless if they want to spread it out over 1 or several shows) plans need to be made (more film stock, angles, cranes, towers, etc etc).

Yokohama, which was shot on TAPE, was obviously thought out well in advance and there were several extra camera people in addition to the 4 main jumbo-tron cams.

Based on what we know and have seen, I still think these people might remember things in a different way.

I don't doubt that there are film based footage of stuff that is NOT crowd shots/APOM/MITM material, but it probably isn't consistent, let alone shot with an intent to edit together.

Just because there was new footage we never saw of APOM in Bad 25 from Minneapolis doesn't mean at all that the entire show was shot on film.

/bla

Warren Eagles wrote: "The concert was shot on a mixture of 35mm and 16mm film, it seemed at times they were shooting film for fun! The crew filmed 2 nights out of the 5 Wembley stadium gigs, film was also fed from the earlier tour legs in Australia, Japan, and Europe. As an accompanying piece to the concert, an “on the road” documentary was also filmed at the same time." "It is still the biggest music project I have ever been involved with in terms of volume of footage"

It does sound that they filmed a lot. And he said that it seemed they were shooting film for fun so I don't think nothing was preventing them from filming full concerts. Also if they filmed an "on the road" documentary but never released it could mean that they also planned to release a concert but because of Moonwalker they decided not to.

I think Estate should release some kind of message to the fans about this. It would be interesting to know if they really have the films reels or not and what they know.

 

[AtlasAir]

Yeah, I read that.
I wonder if maybe he means that they filmed 2 shows out of the (actual 7) Wembley shows for APOM material.

And wasn't the on the road documentaries ultimately the 2 big Bad Tour docs (I think one was for MTV)? And that was pretty much all tape-based stuff.

Anyway, I'd love to be wrong and there is a bunch of material out there. I want more than anything else to see Human Nature and WBSS (with the intro!) shot on film.
Pft, I'd even sit and watch hours of just all the crowd shots from all the stadium shows!

I would not care at all if it was edited together like This Is It.
But fortunately, the show was so tight, you could edit a show from the first leg, 2nd leg arena and 2nd leg stadium stages and it would look consistent.

 

[Zakk]

Yeah, I read that.
I wonder if maybe he means that they filmed 2 shows out of the (actual 7) Wembley shows for APOM material.

And wasn't the on the road documentaries ultimately the 2 big Bad Tour docs (I think one was for MTV)? And that was pretty much all tape-based stuff.

Anyway, I'd love to be wrong and there is a bunch of material out there. I want more than anything else to see Human Nature and WBSS (with the intro!) shot on film.
Pft, I'd even sit and watch hours of just all the crowd shots from all the stadium shows.

I would not care at all if it was edited together like This Is It.
But fortunately, the show was so tight, you could edit a show from the first leg, 2nd leg arena and 2nd leg stadium stages and it would look consistent.

Three Concerts I believe from the first Leg are on film. Tokyo Sept. 13th, Brisbane and at least another show. none of them intended for release. LIVERPOOL IS ON FILM. as confirmed by PK to David Powell. so I'm fairly sure their are more shows than just 4 on film. we should contact who worked on the tour, any videographers for Michael, capturing shows he wanted to keep for himself. etc. don't come to any conclusions before you know personally what's stored in those 5 storage facilities. who knows, their could be one just for film reels. wait and see.

 

[AtlasAir]

Yes zakk, don't come to any conclusions before knowing what's stored in those 5 storage facilities.

And if you're basing the Tokyo thing off of the Bad Company thing, that appeared to be a simple 2-camera edit (wide shot and a guy at the bottom of the stage).

Whether it was shot by the tv crew from Aussie or MJ's own team, they only were probably allowed the first few songs (up to Rock With You, at the least).
But yes, there very well could be a full show (especially if there's that much film shot at that point).

I'd rather LOVE a full show shot like that. I liked the angle of seeing the end of Human Nature in the red shirt.

OH, and they obviously filmed at least 2 of those shows in the same manner (as the first part where he's coming out of the stage he's in a silver shirt).

Anyway, I'm rambling again random thoughts.

I would even settle for an entire show shot at this angle. Perfect mix of the full stage, plus the crowd. I want more of this angle to look at!

 

[Zakk]

Yes zakk, don't come to any conclusions before knowing what's stored in those 5 storage facilities.

And if you're basing the Tokyo thing off of the Bad Company thing, that appeared to be a simple 2-camera edit (wide shot and a guy at the bottom of the stage).

Whether it was shot by the tv crew from Aussie or MJ's own team, they only were probably allowed the first few songs (up to Rock With You, at the least).
But yes, there very well could be a full show (especially if there's that much film shot at that point).

I'd rather LOVE a full show shot like that. I liked the angle of seeing the end of Human Nature in the red shirt.

OH, and they obviously filmed at least 2 of those shows in the same manner (as the first part where he's coming out of the stage he's in a silver shirt).

Anyway, I'm rambling again random thoughts.

I would even settle for an entire show shot at this angle. Perfect mix of the full stage, plus the crowd. I want more of this angle to look at!

that's from the 35mm film camera in the tower is that from two different shows? look at the jumbotrons, he's in two different positions! oh and this which I believe to be either July 14th/15th at wembley, look at the bottom right of the photo, to me that appears to be a film camera and, in Man in the Mirror, he sang LIVE along with the playback, as you can hear on the amateur audio

 

[Rudolf]

Three Concerts I believe from the first Leg are on film. Tokyo Sept. 13th, Brisbane and at least another show. none of them intended for release. LIVERPOOL IS ON FILM. as confirmed by PK to David Powell. so I'm fairly sure their are more shows than just 4 on film. we should contact who worked on the tour, any videographers for Michael, capturing shows he wanted to keep for himself. etc. don't come to any conclusions before you know personally what's stored in those 5 storage facilities. who knows, their could be one just for film reels. wait and see.

What makes you sure about Brisbane?

 

[AtlasAir]

is that from two different shows? look at the jumbotrons, he's in two different positions!

No, it's from APOM from Bad 25 (when the camera moves quickly right to left). I just cut n pasted the 2 pics together.

I want to see the start of the show from THAT angle.

 

[Zakk]

What makes you sure about Brisbane?

I saw a photo in the "let's investigate what concerts may have been shot on film" thread. of She's Out of My Life.

 

[Rudolf]

I saw a photo in the "let's investigate what concerts may have been shot on film" thread. of She's Out of My Life.

Maybe there were some Michael's personal cameramen with a couple of film cams shooting some parts of the show. But the bootleg that's out there doesn't look like sourced from film, in my eyes.

 

[Galactus123]

Maybe there were some Michael's personal cameramen with a couple of film cams shooting some parts of the show. But the bootleg that's out there doesn't look like sourced from film, in my eyes.

I think he means this pic:

 

[PoP]

that's from the 35mm film camera in the tower is that from two different shows? look at the jumbotrons, he's in two different positions! oh and this which I believe to be either July 14th/15th at wembley, look at the bottom right of the photo, to me that appears to be a film camera and, in Man in the Mirror, he sang LIVE along with the playback, as you can hear on the amateur audio

What about the mic, we knew that Michael uses the black mic on the July 14th & 15th concert, if it isn't a black mic which is sliver, then it's gotta be a July 22nd or July 23rd cocnert. I checked the amateur concert which is the July 22nd and it nearly matched, so that angle on the pics there it's gonna be July 23rd concert at the most.

 

[Rudolf]

I think he means this pic:

I still say the same. The footage just doesn't look like film. Although it's too crap quality to properly judge.

 

[Galactus123]

I still say the same. The footage just doesn't look like film. Although it's too crap quality to properly judge.

The video is Jumbotron footage so it is not film. That picture just shows that a film camera was also used to film the show.

 

[Rudolf]

The video is Jumbotron footage so it is not film. That picture just shows that a film camera was also used to film the show.

Obviously. But how do you know it's jumbotron? It makes sense, but I mean we can't know really.

 

[Galactus123]

Obviously. But how do you know it's jumbotron? It makes sense, but I mean we can't know really.

This does look like normal Jumbotron footage(camera angles and the crane camera is used like normally):

That film camera pic is from around 27:06.

 

[AtlasAir]

Of course it's jumbotron footage. Spotting a film camera at the bottom of the stage is irrelevant.