Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

[Beachlover]

ok thanks, I have the report open on page 50. If I went through all the pages I can manage to check the last one.

EDIT: But there are no test results...

anyway, by doing that I finished reading it

Morning Daisy. No there are no results and I wish there were. It would help us to understand what happened for longer than 24 hours and tell us what else might have been taken over a period of time.

What Soundmind and I are trying to figure out is what was given to Michael in the days before this happened.

After reading the report I also noticed the Ephedrine given and saw Aspirin/Caffeine/Epehdrine. (Red Plastic Pill Bottle with no prescription direction and no doctors names) and it was from the second scene visit which means to me that it came from the black doctors bag.

Now, at first I was going to jump on Murray but aspirin is Salicyclate and it says ND which means not detected in his system. So, was this Murrays or did he give it to Michael perhaps at some time during that week prior and only the Ephedrine is still present in tests? I can't answer that as yet. Forensic science is a specialty. Also, I don't know what the dose was for each because it is not listed.

I can also tell you that there are many other parts of the medical record and report we do not have, such as blood panels and chemistry that would help make certain determinations. I am sure these are withheld and would come out in trial if there is one. We have to work with the limited information we have. Its a lot of information but there are still many things we do not know.

 

[Beachlover]

Err, to me the autopsy report does sound like he had been sick but not the kind of sickness that would put his life in danger. ;-) "how sick" doesn't equal to "life threathening sickness" ;-) I guess you must have misinterpret me. He had troubles with sleeping, eating and had catheters and balloon pump in the veins.
Btw, I'm actually a medical and pharmaceutical biotechnology graduate and I work in pathology lab. ehehe!

I hear you, so let me explain some of the things not just for you but anyone reading. Congradulations on your job. It is interesting work.

The balloon pump was put in at the hospital as a life saving measure to get blood flowing. That is a result of emergency life saving procedures. That is something that goes into the heart and called an Intra Aortic Balloon Pump or IAPB.

In medicine, a catheter is a tube that can be inserted into a body cavity, duct, or vessel. Catheters thereby allow drainage, injection of fluids, or access by surgical instruments. The process of inserting a catheter is catheterization. In most uses, a catheter is a thin, flexible tube ("soft" catheter), though in some uses, it is a larger, solid ("hard") catheter. A catheter left inside the body, either temporarily or permanently, may be referred to as an indwelling catheter. (taken right from Wikipedia)

I think I understand what you mean about being 'sick'. There are different ways of being unhealthy, but Michael was always thin and he was not found to be undernourished or emaciated as many have reported. That means he was eating enough to live and certainly not starving. That would have been mentioned in the autopsy.

 

[Mechi]

Beachlover is Ephedrine the same what we call in Germany a 'natural ecstasy' as it is done from plants? keeping youngsters awake for partying causing insomnia, lose of apetite, overcoming shyness and mild anxiousty?

What's the indication for ephedrine usage in the US at all?

 

[Mechi]

My young patients are often going for it as if gives the impression you're really are more fit than you actually are... more attentive, more awake, stronger etc. but research shows it's only the impression... actually it's not really more of any. Still it keeps you awake and causes less apetite as side effect.

I'm wondering why Michael got it... for what???... crazy when he was suffering insomnia already and known as a not good eater?

 

[Beachlover]

I wanted to ask you: many people assume automatically that the inflamation of lungs is a proof of Lupus.
How would you comment on this given what you said above: there were no signs of Lupus?

The report did not state this was the case anywhere. They reported every other aspect of this poor mans body but they did not mention that. I would think they would have. I don't want to speculate in this section and I am not a physician so I certainly don't want to go around saying the man had some health issue that he didn't have.

I can positively say there were issues with his lungs but I can not positively say that he had Lupus based on that alone. There are other conditions which could cause that.

 

[shawnt]

Beachlover is Ephedrine the same what we call in Germany a 'natural ecstasy' as it is done from plants? keeping youngsters awake for partying causing insomnia, lose of apetite, overcoming shyness and mild anxiousty?

What's the indication for ephedrine usage in the US at all?

Ephedrine was used in diet drugs in the USA in the 90's. It was banned because too many people were dieing due to the drug. It did cause a loss of appetite and give you energy similar to caffeine.

 

[Beachlover]

My young patients are often going for it as if gives the impression you're really are more fit than you actually are... more attentive, more awake, stronger etc. but research shows it's only the impression... actually it's not really more of any. Still it keeps you awake and causes less apetite as side effect.

I'm wondering why Michael got it... for what???... crazy when he was suffering insomnia already and known as a not good eater?

Mechi, this was not listed as Michaels medication. It was on the list of what was recovered with Dr Murrays bag. It is promoted often as an ECA Stack and there are many sights promoting it for weight loss, body building, etc. I do know that Caffeine is a stimulant to keep you awake and found in chocolate and coffee. Aspirin is a great anti inflammatory medication and a blood thinner. Ephedra is a scary medication that can cause heart problems they have found and I have seen this myself first hand.

I do not know why it would have been in Michaels system except that it also has properties that can make the heart less susceptible to the effects of the benzos but thats speculation on my part to say thats why he took it.

 

[adrianmonk]

i would just like to say that i am thoroughly enjoying the discussion in this thread. i wish i had more experience as a medical professional to contribute, i am starting medical school this year and currently work as a biochemistry researcher and veterinary assistant (separately :lol so i do have some background knowledge.

regarding the lupus: it is an autoimmune disorder, and isn't it diagnosed via checking blood levels of antibodies? i would not think they would check for this in an autopsy unless thinking that would be a possible cause of death. furthermore, all the bloodwork aside from the tox screens seem to be left out of this particular report, which i would assume to be fairly standard to have performed??? so is it possible that he did have lupus, it is documented on his medical records from when he was living (gosh it feels weird to even be saying those words... :weeping, but it simply was not looked for in autopsy as a contributing factor? also, is it possible that this report is incomplete, as it doesn't have any bloodwork (or urinalysis or other fluid workup) aside from tox screens?

 

[Limonali]

Mechi, this was not listed as Michaels medication. It was on the list of what was recovered with Dr Murrays bag. It is promoted often as an ECA Stack (...) Ephedra is a scary medication that can cause heart problems they have found and I have seen this myself first hand.
I do not know why it would have been in Michaels system except that it also has properties that can make the heart less susceptible to the effects of the benzos but thats speculation on my part to say thats why he took it.

I'm sorry I'm getting a bit confused with what I was (trying) to read yesterday from your discussion here.
Can we just state: ECA was found in Murray's bag. Only Ephedrine was found in Michael's system (urine and? blood???)
Is that correct?

also, is it possible that this report is incomplete, as it doesn't have any bloodwork (or urinalysis or other fluid workup) aside from tox screens?

:waving:
I think it was mentioned here before that the report we have an access to might be incomplete,
however the rest of results might be used during the trial.

 

[Mechi]

Mechi, this was not listed as Michaels medication. It was on the list of what was recovered with Dr Murrays bag.... I do not know why it would have been in Michaels system except that it also has properties that can make the heart less susceptible to the effects of the benzos but thats speculation on my part to say thats why he took it.

As I read it they've detected it in Michaels urine?... well maybe I need to read it again?

 

[Mechi]

Well I'm certainly no medical expert lol and I don't want to give that impression.
I'm just someone knowing psychology and a bit of psychopharmacology... just to put that clear. So if I talk of patients then it's young ppl mainly fighting addictions and/or psychological problems... well and they're talking somewhat often about ephedrine.

Well actually it is on the very first page somewhat under anatomical summary:

B. Propofol, midazolam, lidocaine and ephidrine identified in urine.

 

[BillieJean84]

If I knew that I would be talking about 'Michael Jackson's autopsy' I would have prepared for this a long time ago. :weeping:

 

[terrell]

Re: Regarding the Coroner's Report...

I finally read it and I have not been able to sleep. It hurts. This is why I hate autopsy but it is something that is done. I am so mad at these doctors until it is beyond words. I am angry with our society for calling this man a liar when it came to his skin disorder. We live in a sick world. But again, on the issue of these doctors, these people should have never had all this stuff in Michael's room. WHY? He was NOT sick in order to need that mess. Yes, a part of me wish Michael would have been more responsible for himself however, this falls on the doctor because the doctor should have said NO, this is not right.

 

[bouee]

Well I'm certainly no medical expert lol and I don't want to give that impression.
I'm just someone knowing psychology and a bit of psychopharmacology... just to put that clear. So if I talk of patients then it's young ppl mainly fighting addictions and/or psychological problems... well and they're talking somewhat often about ephedrine.

Well actually it is on the very first page somewhat under anatomical summary:

Yes, I was going to ask the same question. It's on page 12 paragraph 1 E (toxicology findings)

 

[Beachlover]

As I read it they've detected it in Michaels urine?... well maybe I need to read it again?

Yes. Ephedrine was found but as I mentioned earlier salicylic, which is aspirin, was not found, so I can not say with certainty he took one of those particular pills that was found in Murrays bag. Hope that makes clearer what I meant.

 

[bouee]

I have a few questions, I'll try to make one post per question to make it easier for those who are able to answer.

Soundmind an Beachlover, you were trying earlier to make deduction from the amount of drug(s) found in MJ's blood? organs and urine (hope this makes sense, my English is not what I would like it to be....) .
We know CPR and probably other ressusitation methods were used, possibly by Murray, by the paramedics and maybe at the hospital. So at least 40mn , maybe more.
Would that have any incidence ? I mean, is it possible that during ressucitation attempts the body keeps metabolising, and so change a little bit the results or the deduction that can be made from the results ??

 

[daisy]

:waving:
I think it was mentioned here before that the report we have an access to might be incomplete,
however the rest of results might be used during the trial.

Yes I think now that many important things are left out of this report, many important results that would be critical at some point to really make meaningful judgements.

Err, to me the autopsy report does sound like he had been sick but not the kind of sickness that would put his life in danger. ;-) "how sick" doesn't equal to "life threathening sickness" ;-) I guess you must have misinterpret me. He had troubles with sleeping, eating and had catheters and balloon pump in the veins.
Btw, I'm actually a medical and pharmaceutical biotechnology graduate and I work in pathology lab. ehehe!

Anotehr issue is Michael´s general state of health which might be important for the larger picture.
RainbowAngel, seems like you could somehow contribute here.
How would you tell basing on this report - did Michael have "a body of an astronaut"? I mean, seriously, do you think he was fully able physically to perform 50 concerts without putting his health in danger?

 

[bouee]

Yes. Ephedrine was found but as I mentioned earlier salicylic, which is aspirin, was not found, so I can not say with certainty he took one of those particular pills that was found in Murrays bag. Hope that makes clearer what I meant.

Hi Beachlover, and thks again for taking the time to answer, you are really helpful here.

Why would you take ephedrine ???

hereunder a part of the wikipedia article about it :
"Ephedrine (IPA: [əˈfɛdrɪn] or [ˈɛfədriːn]) is a sympathomimetic amine commonly used as a stimulant, appetite suppressant, concentration aid, decongestant, and to treat hypotension associated with anaesthesia."


well I guess that answers the question : we can not know. It could have been used to feel less tired during the day (which is understandable if he had insomnia), or to counter effect the hypotension part of anesthesia.
Fans say that MJ was loosing wheight rapidly during the last weeks. So I guess the appetite suppressant part is a question as well.

Do you have any particular opinion about it ?

 

[The One.]

Re: Coroners Report released

I haven't read the report, and I'm not going to. The info I've heard already is enough for me.

Reading it, I just hope he REALLY knew how much he was loved and appreciated.

That's really what I hope too.

 

[Hocus]

I have read it a few times and this was one of the things that stood out to me because of the amount in his bladder and I did post an explanation to that earlier. MJ was taking the medication "Flomax" as I had seen that listed somewhere.

I did some research and have found this

Less serious Flomax side effects may include:

• mild dizziness or drowsiness;
• sleep problems (insomnia);

(source: http://www.drugs.com/flomax.html)

 

[Limonali]

I was just thinking - would you take Ephedrine in order to stimulate yourself after waking up from Propofol-induced 'sleep'?
When you wake up after having been given Propofol, would you need additional stimulation or are you able to function properly without it?

 

[Beachlover]

Hi Beachlover, and thks again for taking the time to answer, you are really helpful here.

Why would you take ephedrine ???

hereunder a part of the wikipedia article about it :
"Ephedrine (IPA: [əˈfɛdrɪn] or [ˈɛfədriːn]) is a sympathomimetic amine commonly used as a stimulant, appetite suppressant, concentration aid, decongestant, and to treat hypotension associated with anaesthesia."


well I guess that answers the question : we can not know. It could have been used to feel less tired during the day (which is understandable if he had insomnia), or to counter effect the hypotension part of anesthesia.
Fans say that MJ was loosing wheight rapidly during the last weeks. So I guess the appetite suppressant part is a question as well.

Do you have any particular opinion about it ?

I have been thinking long and hard about it and not sure yet. The Medical report did say they did not know if Michael was compliant with his medications meaning he may not have taken the Flomax he was prescribed for whatever reason. It was not on the tox screen so I have no way of knowing.

 

[Beachlover]

I was just thinking - would you take Ephedrine in order to stimulate yourself after waking up from Propofol-induced 'sleep'?
When you wake up after having been given Propofol, would you need additional stimulation or are you able to function properly without it?

Propofol leaves few to no side effects and some even report they feel great afterwards.

 

[xthunderx2]

I was just thinking - would you take Ephedrine in order to stimulate yourself after waking up from Propofol-induced 'sleep'?
When you wake up after having been given Propofol, would you need additional stimulation or are you able to function properly without it?

I can answer your question seeing I have had first hand experince with propofol... In my experiences..which are a few.. when a person wakes up from propofol they are groggy and it make take a half hour or so to be able to stand up and get you balance....but usually after about an hour you are ok to go about your day....but...you should never try to drive or make any important decisions because it does effect your train of thought...you really cannot think clearly for a few hours...which is why I dont believe that Murray gave this to Michael night after night like he is trying to say.

 

[Limonali]

Thanks you both. This seems a bit contradictory tho, maybe you will elaborate more.
xthunderx2 can you also elaborate re why don't you BELIEVE he was giving it to him night after night?
I don't quite see it in the context I see myself:
a- Mike not starting rehearsals until later in the afternoon (to 'shake off' the effect of Propofol? just a guess).
b- Mike had some difficulties with decision making - just my own opinion (based on all confusion, issues regarding the number of concerts, management, contracts etc...). Of course it might be the effect of many more different issues.

 

[Beachlover]

I can answer your question seeing I have had first hand experince with propofol... In my experiences..which are a few.. when a person wakes up from propofol they are groggy and it make take a half hour or so to be able to stand up and get you balance....but usually after about an hour you are ok to go about your day....but...you should never try to drive or make any important decisions because it does effect your train of thought...you really cannot think clearly for a few hours...which is why I dont believe that Murray gave this to Michael night after night like he is trying to say.

I have a question. In the instances you have seen this used, were other drugs also given with it?

 

[Rubi]

ephedrine is a powerful bronchial dilator. Often used to dilate the bronchi and have a better breath. Some athletes also make use of it, but it is banned by the IOC.
In addition to accelerating the heartbeat, speeding up the metabolism ...

I do not know where enquadrari michael ...
This result strikes me and makes me doubt. Many questions ...

 

[Beachlover]

I have a few questions, I'll try to make one post per question to make it easier for those who are able to answer.

Soundmind an Beachlover, you were trying earlier to make deduction from the amount of drug(s) found in MJ's blood? organs and urine (hope this makes sense, my English is not what I would like it to be....) .
We know CPR and probably other ressusitation methods were used, possibly by Murray, by the paramedics and maybe at the hospital. So at least 40mn , maybe more.
Would that have any incidence ? I mean, is it possible that during ressucitation attempts the body keeps metabolising, and so change a little bit the results or the deduction that can be made from the results ??

Just saw this question. Metabolism comes from a functioning body and this is another part of forensic science I do not have 100% knowledge of. I do know that some laboratory results can change if something is sitting in a tube too long because blood itself is a living component made of cells. BUT I believe the answer to your question is NO for our purposes here with the toxicology tests.

 

[xthunderx2]

Thanks you both. This seems a bit contradictory tho, maybe you will elaborate more.
xthunderx2 can you also elaborate re why don't you BELIEVE he was giving it to him night after night? I don't quite see it in the context I perceive myself.
a- Mike not starting rehearsals until later in the afternoon (to 'shake off' the effect of Propofol? just a guess).
b- Mike had some difficulties with decision making just my own opinion (based on all confusion, issues regarding the number of concerts, management, contracts etc...)

well I know for me that being given propopol on the occasion that I was...and I have to say I was given it for abdominal surgery....so you are basically in a coma state for that...those lasted 5 to 6 hours each....I dont believe that the human body can go night after night getting that type of medication...it is ment to completely knock you and and it does...it hinders your ability to breath on your own if given in large doses...I am always put on a respirator when I am given it.....

 

[Autumn II]

the whole section on lungs inflammation looks very serious.

I have read the report carefully, but just ONCE. It was incredibly emotionally wrenching to see that we've come to this. With reference to your post, yes, it DOES look serious. The conclusion of that section, (paraphrasing text, because I will not quote out of respect for those who do not want to read the report -- I DO understand): there would be adverse health affects (with reference to lung-issues). No cause is ascribed to the lung conditions, but it is indicated from the scarring mentioned that this was some sort of long-term problem, not just something that cropped up recently. No cause was given, and lupus was not mentioned. (The report just describes the condition of the body, in excruciating detail.)

I'll repeat that, so that everyone comprehends? "There would be adverse health effects." This is one of the conclusions of the report. I'm not sure how ELSE "adverse health effects" could possibly be read?

In terms of the propofol, it is Murray saying that he gave propofol to Michael for six weeks, and Cherlyn Lee saying that he "begged for it." Michael is not here to speak for himself, so we do not know if he did or did not beg for, or even want, this drug. That is as far as we can go with the tox report, which does not indicate that he used it long-term. Hair samples are not given in the tox report, though. (wonder why? Was that part redacted?)

That also goes along with "Michael bearing some responsibility" statements. There are things we do know from the report, and things we do NOT know. We do not KNOW if he requested this drug. We do not KNOW what went on in the room that night. .. . .

As far as the ephedra is concerned, doesn't matter if "aspirin" was also found. This is a drug that causes insomnia and weight-loss. I'm sure Michael did not WANT to have either insomnia or weight-loss. He typically tried to GAIN weight before concert tours. He was clearly already very slender, and keeping a "dancer's body" slim would not have been an issue for him. So why was he taking it? Was it to help him to "wake up" after propofol? From all accounts, that is not an issue and patients wake up more-or-less refreshed. Did he even KNOW he was being given the drug? We cannot KNOW that, either, but only speculate.

The tox report answers some questions, and leaves many unanswered.