Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

[ginvid]

Re: Detailed analysis of the information given in the autopsy report compared to other statements/in

I don't know about the dancer saying prqactices went til 1:30 am, but they said MJ left at about 12:30.

 

[bouee]

Midazolam is a clear fluid.

ok, thks. So MJ might not have been able to tell he was given Lorazepam instead of Midazolam.

 

[Ernestine]

Re: Detailed analysis of the information given in the autopsy report compared to other statements/in

I don't know about the dancer saying prqactices went til 1:30 am, but they said MJ left at about 12:30.

That is what I thought too. I think Randy Phillips and and AEG gave the same timeline too.

 

[Ernestine]

i'm afraid my understanding of this complex case is not as good as you guys-but the thing that jumps out at me is Why give Lorazepam via an I.V? it just seems fishy to me.

Ativan is COMMONLY pushed via IV because it works quicker rather than oral which can take up to a hour or more to work, so I am not surprised with that. If Murray was using Ativan to help MJ sleep quicker than it actually makes sense. If one of my patients at work is acting out of control, then you bet I am asking for an IV dose of Ativan.

 

[Beachlover]

It only means aspirin left his system faster than ephedrine , hair sample toxicology exam would tell whether there was aspirin in his system or not . Nevertheless, the police did believe it came from him and they did seize similar drug from his clinic in Houston .

and I still insist that there was a very valid reason why his contract was not signed by MJ or AEG , at that point Murray did not guarantee he was going to London with MJ , and from everything we heard AEG were not so fond of him , we have to hear others testimony regarding how MJ really thought of him , I'm beginning to doubt MJ wanted his services anymore , or was planning to take him to London . You don't need two months to sign a piece of paper .

This is not in support of any conspiracy theory , this is still Murray working on his own , these are my believes , I believe Murray was scarred he was not going to get $ 150.000 a month and he was in desperate need of that money and was trying to create a problem for MJ so his "services" would be needed . MY OWN OPINION .

In the case of the ephedrine, if he was taking that combination drug often enough the Aspirin woud have shown up. I don't know what the police think as I have not read any reports regarding that.

As far as what Michael thought of Murray, I have doubts about what you are thinking only because Michael understood completely the seriousness of this drug in my opinion and yet he allowed him to be the person to administer knowing full well he would be completely knocked out. Based on that knowledge alone, why would Michael put himself in that position? I just find it very difficult to believe that Michael would allow anyone that much power over him especially if he thought there was any problem or issue.

I would think he would have just not called upon him any more and not asked him to come there and sedate him.

 

[bouee]

About TOD and timing: while I was posting in another thread, I reread the autopsy report :

"paramedics arrived paramedics arrived at 12 26 and found the decedent asystolic, .../.... his pupils were fixed and dilated"

does this help in anyway about the timing, or TOD ?

 

[Beachlover]

Also, it was pointed out that Diazepam (Valium) was given and was taken by Michael since he filled the prescription.

Valium was originally intended as a great muscle relaxer and it is, in fact, a wonderful muscle relaxer. They no longer prescribe it for that because of its addiction properties, but it is often given in the hospital before certain cardiac procedures because of its properties as a muscle relaxant and the heart is a muscle.

 

[abigaillovesmj]

I can't answer the pharmacological parts of this, but there those here who can. Anyone? Can you condense those findings? Thanks-in-advance.


The burn scar on his head was NOT mentioned, although tiny scars (one-fourth to one-half inch) WERE mentioned. That seems very strange to me. That was surely his most significant scar, and the report said "his hair was short and tightly curled." It must have been very visible?



It does not state that he had lupus. He had various issues with his lungs that the report said about, "Would have caused adverse health effects." There was inflammation and long-term scarring. That lung damage could have been caused by lupus, but the report does not state the cause.



Propofol was found in blood and urine. It was ALSO found in his stomach, and the fluid in his EYES. Given that it leaves the body very quickly, that would seem to indicate a massive "bolus" (I.V. push), all at once. A "killing" dose, would seem likely. The Involuntary Manslaughter charge is a joke. . .. . . or worse.



It seems obvious that Murray concealed evidence. Why was he not charged with that?

Thank you victoria for answering :flowers:

 

[Soundmind]

Also, it was pointed out that Diazepam (Valium) was given and was taken by Michael since he filled the prescription.

Valium was originally intended as a great muscle relaxer and it is, in fact, a wonderful muscle relaxer. They no longer prescribe it for that because of its addiction properties, but it is often given in the hospital before certain cardiac procedures because of its properties as a muscle relaxant and the heart is a muscle.

yeah that's the problem why was he giving him all these benzos since he knew he would be soon hooked on them and he would be in a worse situation ?

 

[Soundmind]

Ativan is COMMONLY pushed via IV because it works quicker rather than oral which can take up to a hour or more to work, so I am not surprised with that. If Murray was using Ativan to help MJ sleep quicker than it actually makes sense. If one of my patients at work is acting out of control, then you bet I am asking for an IV dose of Ativan.

we know that , but since when an IV lorazepam is used to treat insomnia ? and the first day he used it to help MJ 'sleep faster' , mj ended up dead , it makes perfect sense .

 

[ginvid]

Re: Detailed analysis of the information given in the autopsy report compared to other statements/in

This thread is for us to post..statements/information....that has been made from Murray ..his defense team.....Detailed analysis of the information given in the autopsy report compared to other statements/information that we can find. Everyone's input is of value in this.

* Per MJ's dancer, Daniel Celebre, the June 24th rehearsal ended at 1:30 a.m.
/QUOTE]



X Thunder, where did the dancer say this? Was it an interview? I believe Kenny, Travis and Michael Bearden, and I think Frank all said MJ left at 12:30. (Still even though he left at that time, the dancers could have continued practicing til 1:30).

 

[abigaillovesmj]

anyone answer me please , did they mention when midazolam found at the house was bought ? know it was not prescribed to anyone , but when it was bought ? It's very important , those who read the report anything on propofol vials , I know for sue those 8 bottles found were not used that night/morning IMPOSSIBLE from the urine concentration , but WHEN they were bought ? Are they the same bottles he bought on may 14 ? lidocaine found and given that day was bought on may 14, but what about midazolam and porpofol ?




midazolam is given before propofol usually , that's why it was given . Lorazepam and diazepam are given usually to help someone with moderate sleep problem not SEVERE ONE . Murry tried them before they did not work , so why did he use them that day I don't know . I expressed my opinion , Murray probably was trying to hook MJ on benzos so he would make sure MJ would SIGN his contract and force AEG to do so .

Lidocaine is given with propofol because propofol burns .




No, it only tells us it was not given for hours THAT NIGHT , I would say even less than half an hour which then it does not make sense , why would he want to sleep at noon ? why it was not used much earlier ?

we need hair samples to know that , they are not published yet .

Thank you Soundmind I understand better know:flowers:

So about the propofol, we know that it was only given once that night and that's all that can be concluded from amount found in Michael's system.

You asked for the dates the Midazolam and Propofol found at the house were perscribed at. There is no mention of that in the report. It says that there were no prescription directions and no patient or doctor names.

 

[Popescu]

About TOD and timing: while I was posting in another thread, I reread the autopsy report :

"paramedics arrived paramedics arrived at 12 26 and found the decedent asystolic, .../.... his pupils were fixed and dilated"

does this help in anyway about the timing, or TOD ?

Nope, he was basically gone when they arrived.

"In medicine, asystole (colloquially known as flatline) is a state of no cardiac electrical activity, hence no contractions of the myocardium and no cardiac output or blood flow. Asystole is one of the conditions required for a medical practitioner to certify death."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asystole

 

[ensleyave]

They are probably withholding the time of death as evidence. The DA probably has the official time of death.

 

[rainny]

The TMZ guy said ( I know I know...., but he _is_ a lawyer) that

the more complicated this case is presented to be in trial, the more

it can benefit the defence since the chances for the jury to get confused

and unable to reach

a ' beyond reasonable doubt' verdict will be higher.

Keeping it simple:

- Cardiologist accepts a full time job for a patient whose heart
is healthy.

- He asks for a ridiculous amount of money for doing the job of anesthesiologist,
in a house, without the right equipment.

-Verdict: drug pusher.

 

[ensleyave]

I believe reasonable people will see that this whole thing is unreasonable.

 

[Popescu]

They are probably withholding the time of death as evidence. The DA probably has the official time of death.

ensleyave, I remember researching TOD back in July. There is no way to establish it, other than rigor mortis, body temperature and a few other factors that do not interest us here.
I was swearing as I realised that they can NOT pinpoint tod, based on what I have read on the Internet, there is a window of one to three hours. The temperature in the house was very high, thus delaying the rigor mortis.

I'm not a medical expert, but, based on what I have read on forensic science, I believe they do not have an accurate time of death.

 

[abigaillovesmj]

For the person asking about Lupus and medications for it:

http://www.lupus.org/webmodules/web...nunderstanding.aspx?articleid=2231&zoneid=523

"For most people with lupus, proper treatment can minimize symptoms, reduce inflammation and pain, and stop the development of serious organ damage."

"There has not been a drug approved specifically for the treatment of lupus in more than 40 years. "

"Corticosteroids (also known as glucocorticoids, cortisone or steroids) are synthetic (man-made) drugs designed to work like the body’s naturally occurring hormones produced by the adrenal glands, in particular cortisol. Hormones are the body’s chemical messengers that regulate most of the body’s functions. Cortisol helps regulate blood pressure and the immune system, and it is the body’s most potent anti-inflammatory hormone. Corticosteroids prescribed for autoimmune diseases are different from the anabolic steroids that weightlifters and other athletes sometimes take to increase strength."

"Steroid medications work quickly to decrease the swelling, warmth, tenderness, and pain that are associated with inflammation. They do this by lessening the immune system’s response. Prednisone is the most commonly prescribed steroid for lupus. Prednisolone and methyl-prednisolone (Medrol®) are similar to prednisone, and some physicians prefer to prescribe these if you have liver problems."


10 pills of Predinisone were issued for MJ, on April 25th, according to the autopsy

report.

Antibiotics are also commonly prescribed, and there are two of them on the list

of MJ's prescriptions. One is Amoxicillin, and the other is Azithromycin.

There is also an over the counter ointment among his items which is used by

people with Lupus.

Thanks rainny :flowers: that information is very important in my opinion

 

[mj_smile]

ensleyave, I remember researching TOD back in July. There is no way to establish it, other than rigor mortis, body temperature and a few other factors that do not interest us here.
I was swearing as I realised that they can NOT pinpoint tod, based on what I have read on the Internet, there is a window of one to three hours. The temperature in the house was very high, thus delaying the rigor mortis.

I'm not a medical expert, but, based on what I have read on forensic science, I believe they do not have an accurate time of death.

If I understand the technical terms (as a non native speaker) right, I 'must' say: No, the other way around.
"(..) Rigor mortis starts at room temperature for about 1 to 2 hours on the eyelids, muscles of mastication (2 to 4 hours) and small joints, then at the neck and continue body down, and after 6 to 12 hours is fully developed (in the heat faster, slow in the cold.)(..)"
Translated (in english) from the german wikipedia http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenstarre (= Rigor mortis) which is not identical with the english version http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

 

[amyzabeth]

I was looking at some drugs that "interact" with Propofol two drugs that were named, were prescribed by Murray. Diazepam and Temazepam. http://www.drugs.com/propofol.html

Murray seriously deserves a slap upside his head. He is past stupidity. Why would he prescribe these two drugs that are known to interact with Propofol?

And to top it all off he didn't have anything to monitor Michael with. It was all in the other room. He decided to just watch Michael's abdomen move up and down, that's what he considers "monitoring."

Also, Murray said, well according to one of his many "timelines" that he "monitored" Michael for 10 minutes before leaving to go to the bathroom for approximately 2-3 minutes, then he went to go make phone calls for about 47 minutes. So, from what I have been reading, Michael napped a few minutes after he was given the propofol? So Murray just "monitored" a dead body? :smilerolleyes:


:doh::doh::doh:


:banghead

 

[abigaillovesmj]

Regarding the Lupus. It does not really discuss that in the autopsy. Someone stated it came from a trial mentioned by Klein a while back but as far as medications for Lupus, I personally did not see them.

Regarding the burn, there is a scar on Michaels head where the burn was and a bald spot there. It does say his hair is balding and sparse in the front but the two as far as I know are non related.

Regarding Propofol. It is hard to say how long he was taking it from the reports we have here. We don't know if it was weeks. The DA has this information from the hair samples they took but they did not release this information to the public.

Regarding the charges, I can't answer that because I don't know exactly what evidence the DA has and the burden of proof is on him.

Thanks beachlover for answering :flowers:

 

[ivy]

The temperature in the house was very high, thus delaying the rigor mortis.

Rigor mortis starts at room temperature for about 1 to 2 hours on the eyelids, muscles of mastication (2 to 4 hours) and small joints, then[/I] at the neck and continue body down, and after 6 to 12 hours is fully developed (in the heat faster, slow in the cold.)(..)"

mj_smile is right. rigor mortis (stiffness) happens faster in higher temperatures. if you want to delay it you have to keep body cold.

 

[abigaillovesmj]

I hope I am making sense. I am going to explain about the burn in a bit. I am reading some information right now and will get back to the autopsy in a bit to piece that together for those that are asking.

As for the Lupus. I can only say this about it. There are two kinds of Lupus. Discoid and Systemic. There are plenty of sights that can explain each of them to you if you want to Google them for information but I will say this much. The autopsy did not define this as a diagnosis anywhere. If in fact he had Discoid this would not involve the lungs. Also, the medication he was taking for his skin can have been for other things too so I would not want to make any conclusion on that. (TwinklEE would be happy that I am not guessing here) :girl_happy:

O.K thanks for clearing that up. I heard he had discoid lupus and I thought that his lungs condition was because of that since I remember reading that lupus can affect the lungs. Could you please explain why in this case the situation of his lungs is not related?

 

[ensleyave]

They can give an approximate time of death and I believe they are reserving that as prosecutorial evidence.

 

[daisy]

They can give an approximate time of death and I believe they are reserving that as prosecutorial evidence.

Could be. We are not given full autopsy results. there could still be things critically changing our way of thinking about what happened.

 

[amyzabeth]

O.K thanks for clearing that up. I heard he had discoid lupus and I thought that his lungs condition was because of that since I remember reading that lupus can affect the lungs. Could you please explain why in this case the situation of his lungs is not related?

If he had Discoid it would make inflammatory scarring on his skin, like his scalp,neck, and face area. But Discoid lupus does sometimes progress to Systemic lupus, which could affect any part of the body. Lungs, heart, joints, skin, blood vessels, kidneys, and nervous system.

http://www.aocd.org/skin/dermatologic_diseases/discoid_lupus_eryt.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemic_lupus_erythematosus

Again, I'm not sure if Michael even had lupus. I have heard for a while now that he has, but yea...from what I heard he had Discoid Lupus, but I don't know if it's true.

But regarding the lungs, I know that Michael had a lung condition for a while now, as early as in the early 80s I think.

Even in an interview Quincy did not too long ago, he mentions that Michael mentioned some problem he had with his lungs (in the 80s). But Quincy said he didn't believe him, but that's beside the point, because Quincy said he didn't believe Michael had vitiligo either. :smilerolleyes: But Michael has mentioned his lung problems before.

 

[Popescu]

mj_smile is right. rigor mortis (stiffness) happens faster in higher temperatures. if you want to delay it you have to keep body cold.

Thank you for clearing this up!

 

[Popescu]

O.K thanks for clearing that up. I heard he had discoid lupus and I thought that his lungs condition was because of that since I remember reading that lupus can affect the lungs.

I remember researching lupus after Michael died, seeing this lady's clips on youtube and crying real hard. They are worth watching. She also put up two videos about Michael.

The symptoms match. She is using this light because she is ashamed of how swelled and blotchy her face looks after (cortico-)steroids.

[youtube]ScIuG176Ejo[/youtube]

 

[abigaillovesmj]

If he had Discoid it would make inflammatory scarring on his skin, like his scalp,neck, and face area. But Discoid lupus does sometimes progress to Systemic lupus, which could affect any part of the body. Lungs, heart, joints, skin, blood vessels, kidneys, and nervous system.

http://www.aocd.org/skin/dermatologic_diseases/discoid_lupus_eryt.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemic_lupus_erythematosus

Again, I'm not sure if Michael even had lupus. I have heard for a while now that he has, but yea...from what I heard he had Discoid Lupus, but I don't know if it's true.

But regarding the lungs, I know that Michael had a lung condition for a while now, as early as in the early 80s I think.

Even in an interview Quincy did not too long ago, he mentions that Michael mentioned some problem he had with his lungs (in the 80s). But Quincy said he didn't believe him, but that's beside the point, because Quincy said he didn't believe Michael had vitiligo either. :smilerolleyes: But Michael has mentioned his lung problems before.

Thanks for explaining :flowers:I didn't know that Discoid Lupus only affects the skin.

I remeber that interview too and also something that Michael said in "Moonwalk" about one time in the 80's he had trouble breathing and was rushed to the hospital. I wonder what caused his lung conditon

 

[Popescu]

Thanks for explaining :flowers:I didn't know that Discoid Lupus only affects the skin.

I remeber that interview too and also something that Michael said in "Moonwalk" about one time in the 80's he had trouble breathing and was rushed to the hospital. I wonder what caused his lung conditon

It has been said here that Michael's condition did progress to systemic lupus. The lady in the video has systemic lupus, and her symptoms match...

Later edit : here's another lupus sufferer who thinks Michael's condition might of progressed to systemic lupus. Very well documented article, it even explains the tape on fingers (Raynaud's phenomenon).
http://femmenoir.net/2009/06/29/did-michael-jackson-have-discoid-or-systemic-lupus/