Cover-Up in Michael Jackson Death?

[kasume]

and Murray did say he gave it through IV drip so why TMZ people are acting like it's news , as you said the evidence does prove it was not given via an IV drip but by bolus injections .

Bolus injections are not less reckless, becuase unlike cases of propofol abuse where the user loss consciousness before injecting a lethal dose , Murray was injecting and had no idea when to stop .

Read the article carefully. It's BIG news, because there are two different ways in giving propofol. So far, we have been hearing the first way, with just through an IV drip. This tear in the rubber stopper means Murray gave Michael the propofol the second way, which requires not only an IV drip, but also an infusion pump. Because the second way connects the ENTIRE bottle of propfol to the tube. The anesthesiologist said

There are two ways of administering Propofol. The first is sticking a syringe into the rubber stopper, withdrawing a small amount and then injecting it into the tubing. The second way is by using a spike -- which creates a tear in the rubber stop -- and connects the entire bottle of Propofol to the tube.

There was a tear in the stopper, which means the doctor used it the second way.

Dr. Dombrowski says if a spike is used to connect the bottle directly to the IV tube, the doctor must use an infusion pump to regulate the flow of Propofol -- otherwise, the patient could easily OD. There was no infusion pump found in Jackson's home.

Now, no infusion pump was found.

Which prorbably means Michael took in that entire bottle of propfol. Can't regulate the flow any other way by using a spike.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

have they ever released the actual figure of how much dip was found in mj? cause that was a 100 bag so obviously it wasnt used all that night. so did murray give it via bolus b4 that night? or did he use drip and got lucky that mj survived. i guess he didint use a pump b4 as one wasnt in the house and u wouldnt expect the pump to come and go but just stay in the house all the time. there was also a 20 amount empty bottle there aswell

 

[daisydaisy]

I think they are saving the actual likely amount of propofol Michael received for the court, it's best not to release it yet, or Murray could change his story again. No doubt the experts called in as medical witnesses or whatever will be able to estimate this.

I do wonder why an empty 100ml 10mg/ml propofol bottle was found in the closet bag though. Once a bottle is opened it 'expires' after 6 hours, because of sterility. So why was an empty one found? What happened to it all?

 

[Ohood]

I think they are saving the actual likely amount of propofol Michael received for the court, it's best not to release it yet, or Murray could change his story again. No doubt the experts called in as medical witnesses or whatever will be able to estimate this.

I do wonder why an empty 100ml 10mg/ml propofol bottle was found in the closet bag though. Once a bottle is opened it 'expires' after 6 hours, because of sterility. So why was an empty one found? What happened to it all?

maybe when the first bottle was enough to kill and do the job , he returned the second one to the bag.

 

[Soundmind]

Read the article carefully. It's BIG news, because there are two different ways in giving propofol. So far, we have been hearing the first way, with just through an IV drip. This tear in the rubber stopper means Murray gave Michael the propofol the second way, which requires not only an IV drip, but also an infusion pump. Because the second way connects the ENTIRE bottle of propfol to the tube. The anesthesiologist said



There was a tear in the stopper, which means the doctor used it the second way.




Now, no infusion pump was found.

Which prorbably means Michael took in that entire bottle of propfol. Can't regulate the flow any other way by using a spike.

OHHKI :

There are two ways of administering Propofol. The first is sticking a syringe into the rubber stopper, withdrawing a small amount and then injecting it into the tubing.

this is called BOLUS INJECTION , not IV drip . they use syringes to give a dose enough to INDUCE SLEEP not maintain sleep , it is given directly into the short tube attached to the Y connecter .
Two syringes with propofol traces were collected from the house , one on June 26, and the other found in Murray's bag on June 29 .

The second way is by using a spike

which creates a tear in the rubber stop -- and connects the entire bottle of Propofol to the tube.

this is called IV drip , with IV drip you need an infusion pump , it is used to maintain sleep for a long time , or should I say for periods longer than simply ten minutes . You attach the whole bottle to an infusion pump attached to a long tube connected with the Y connector .
No propofol was traced in the long tube found, no infusion pump was found , syringes with propofol , propofol in the short tube where drugs usually are injected directly .

the search warrant :

MURRAY injectedJACKSON with 2mg LORAZEPAM (ATIVAN) after dilution, pushed slowly into his IV. JACKSONwas still unable to sleep. At approximately 0300 hours, MURRAY then administered 2mgMIDAZOLAM (VERSED) to JACKSON after dilution, also pushed slowly into his IV. JACKSONremained awake and at approximately 0500 hours, MURRAY administered another 2mg LORAZEPAM(ATIVAN), after dilution, pushed slowly into his IV. JACKSON remained awake and at approximately0730 hours, MURRAY administered another 2mg of MIDAZOLAM (VERSED), after dilution, into hisIV. MURRAY stated he was continuously at JACKSON's bedside and was monitoring him with a pulseoximeter. According to DR. MURRAY, the pulse oximeter was connected to JACKS ON's finger andmeasured his pulse and oxygen statistics.


JACKSON remained awake and at approximately 1040 hours, MURRAY finally administered 25mgof PROPOFOL (DIPRIVAN), diluted with LIDOCAINE (XYLOCAINE), via IV drip to keep JACKSONsedated, after repeated demands/requests from JACKSON. JACKSON finally went to sleep andMURRAY stated that he remained monitoring him. After approximately 10 minutes, MURRAY stated heleft JACKSON's side to go to the restroom and relieve himself. MURRAY stated he was out of the roomfor about 2 minutes maximum. Up
on his return, MURRAY noticed that JACKSON was no longerbreathing.

TMZ are acting like Murray said it was given via an IV bolus , but Murray claimed he gave it via an IV drip .

He LIED because with an IV drip he can blame MJ , but with bolus injection the experts ruled out any chances of Jackson doing it to himself . They did say in the autopsy report " if bolus injections ONLY were used the decendent would not have been able to do it " ONLY ONLY ONLY .

It is unheard of to use bolus injection to sedate someone for long periods , another thing Murray tried to avoid to explain " if you were sedating him for hours each day , how come you were using bolus injections ?????"

It is not less reckless , and not less absurd than giving it through an IV drip without infusion pump , unlike cases of self administering where the person loses consciousness before he/she could inject a lethal dose , Murray had no idea when to stop injection more . with each bolus injection , MJ was going through near death experience , with every bolus injection Murray risked giving MJ a lethal dose . IT IS UNHEARD OF . and we all knew the outcome , he killed him eventually .

 

[Soundmind]

maybe when the first bottle was enough to kill and do the job , he returned the second one to the bag.

They found 8 propofol bottles at the house , 3 100ml=1000mg , 5 20ml=200mg .

the expert in the autopsy report said they found MANY not fully empty propofol bottles under the section talking about safety measures .

How many bottles we don't know , 1000mg NO WAY , 200mg very logical .

The simply made up a story out of nothing , what if they found the three 1000mg bottles empty ????? will you then say he gave it all that night ????

 

[kasume]

^^

I'm just going to break everything to the most simplest words possible and say,

this REAL anesthesiologist, that works all the time with this stuff, is saying something is not right, and has suspicions himself.

Dr. Dombrowski and law enforcement sources believe Dr. Murray may have connected the 100ml bottle of Propofol to the tube, and then either tried regulating the flow by eyeballing it or just letting it flow by itself ... and Dr. Dombrowski calls either scenario "reckless."

It is not less reckless , and not less absurd than giving it through an IV drip without infusion pump , unlike cases of self administering where the person loses consciousness before he/she could inject a lethal dose , Murray had no idea when to stop injection more .

Don't give me that. He should at least know what kind of substances, and how much would cause danger mixed with the other substances already in Michael's system. Even if he really did know nothing about propofol and its effects, he should know that anything like that mixed with the other drugs he DOES not about would just be trouble.

There is no explanation for the empty bottle of Propofol in the hidden compartment.

We need an explanation, and I hope we get one soon.

 

[Soundmind]

^^

I'm just going to break everything to the most simplest words possible and say,

this REAL anesthesiologist, that works all the time with this stuff, is saying something is not right, and has suspicions himself.

well I can't blame him because from everything we have heard so far , something is very very wrong , I want to know what the witnesses have to say , there is indeed something very ODD to say the least .

Don't give me that. He should at least know what kind of substances, and how much would cause danger mixed with the other substances already in Michael's system. Even if he really did know nothing about propofol and its effects, he should know that anything like that mixed with the other drugs he DOES not about would just be trouble.

I'm not excusing him , NOPE on the contrary , I'm saying it was not less absurd nor less deadly than IV without infusion pump .

 

[MJJ:G.O.A.T]

according to posters on other boards this article is BS cause the amount of diprivan in the urine dont support anywhere near 100 being given

BS, the propofol in his urine does not say he was given anything near 100ml that day , 100ML=1000 mg NO WAY

I was just going to ask you or look up what the autopsy report says about the amount found in his urine but I see this:

to estimate the amount of propofol given within the whole night we need to know the amount of metabolites found. metabolites are the substances a drug changes to. the metabolic process takes place within the liver, kidneys and other organs. the amounts of propofol metabolites found arent included in the tox report.

that only small amounts of unchanged (not metabolized) propofol was found in the urine does not mean the amount injected was low. according to literature, only 0.3% of the original drug shows in the urine, the rest shows as its metabolites.

also, if the drug was injected shortly before death, only very low amounts of it would show in the urine.

read here about the metabolism of propofol:

Very informative post. So there a way to measure propofol metabolites then? How so?

 

[MJJ:G.O.A.T]

no you don't need that , 0.10 noway support what TMZ are claiming . 100ml =1000mg of propofol that's two and half hours of sleep , and concentration above 2 in urine . NO WAY .

they found an empty propofol bottle 20ml=200mg , consistent with ten minutes of sedation and more importantly consistent with 0.10 propofol concentration in urine .

basically this article is full of shit , the IV system was in his bag in another room , isn't this enough to prove cover up ? who was really performing CPR while he was removing the IV system and hiding it in another room ?

and Murray did say he gave it through IV drip so why TMZ people are acting like it's news , as you said the evidence does prove it was not given via an IV drip but by bolus injections .

Bolus injections are not less reckless, becuase unlike cases of propofol abuse where the user loss consciousness before injecting a lethal dose , Murray was injecting and had no idea when to stop .

as for metabolites ,in propofol case they would not have been able to determine the quantity based on that simply because there is no scientific way to do it. Their only measurement tool is the urine concentration .

Hmmm...ok. I did find something about detection of propofol metabolites in human urine so I guess that's what you mean. That the only way to determine quantity of propofol metabolites is through the urine and that there isn't a scientific way to do it through the liver?

Good points in your post.

 

[Soundmind]

no they are not included and won't be included because there is no way to determine the quantity , all they can do is use the urine concentration .

 

[Beachlover]

The only thing that shows prior use of any of the drugs is the URINE* (taken from what was found in bottle in the room at the scene) showed Propofol

 

[Soundmind]

The only thing that shows prior use of any of the drugs is the URINE* (taken from what was found in bottle in the room at the scene) showed Propofol

 

[Sirena]

Soundmind, I find it VERY ODD.

Especially since the LA coroner said that toxic amounts of Propofol were found in MJ's body. (God, I hate saying that.)

So how do the toxic amounts = what Murray stated? THEY DON'T. The proof is in what the coroner found & that tear in the larger Propofol bottle which was empty.

Going to bed - I can't cry again over this tonight. Gotta work super early in the morning.

it was 0.10 ug/ml


regarding the urine bottle , 0.10 is very very low again , means probably one bolus injection , maybe two that was it , no lorazepam at all , so what was really the point of giving propofol ? did MJ sleep with so little amount ? does anyone else find it very odd ?

 

[Beachlover]

it was 0.10 ug/ml


regarding the urine bottle , 0.10 is very very low again , means probably one bolus injection , maybe two that was it , no lorazepam at all , so what was really the point of giving propofol ? does anyone else find it very odd ?

Ok....I am NOT wrong. Read page 7 or 8 on the tox report on the autopsy. Thats the same number you have only listed as a different concentration ratio.

Yes, it is very low and likely this level came from prior use of propofol that had already metabolized out of his system. He was still awake when he produced and put that urine into that bottle.

It doesn't mean bolus injection at all. It means Murray gave it another time before that. That is my opinion of that urine in that bottle. Michael WAS awake when it was produced. Maybe when he was already in bed with the IV set up he did not get back up to go to the bathroom.

The bottle being 'spiked' (torn) means that he used it as an IV INFUSION at some time. Maybe not that last night, but if it was spiked, he used it as a drip. You can regulate it with a roller clamp which most IV tubings come with. In that case without a pump he would 'eyeball' a drip rate to produce the correct concentration.

It was my understanding no Propofol infusion set up was found at the scene on that night or in Murrays bag. There was only a bag with tubing that had no drugs added. So.....did he set up the Propofol WITH the other bag hanging and leave it running when he left the room? And after he realized Michael was overdosed, did he then take it down and hide it in his bag?

I am not understanding where the spiked bottle was found. That would be the explanation for giving much more than the 25 mg he said he gave. The bolus would be for induction and the drip would have been left.

That is a dangerous way to hang it with no infusion pump though because the drip rate when eyeballing is not accurate and can change.

 

[MJearthsong]

When I read these articles I feel so sick to my stomach, Why is this happening before all of our eye's not just Michael Jackson fans but the world. This is dangerous for every human being in the world. Letting doctors walk, who appear to be the best kinds of assassins. Everyday people die due to drugs overdoses not by illegal drugs but drugs given or prescribed by doctors. We don't hear about these people because they are not famous but they are still humans.
Why are people, law enforcement agencies and the legal system so afraid to go after these doctors? Just because you go to medical school and take an oath to protect lives, doesn't mean you should get a free pass. If you kill someone Dr. or not you should be treated the same as any other criminal who takes a life.
They DA in Los Angeles along with the LAPD, in my opinion has given this guy many allowances that regular citizens would not have gotten. When Murray turned himself in, the same way Michael Jackson turned himself in he was not handcuffed. When Michael was arrested his bail was 3 million dollars, he never took a life, yet Dr. Murray takes a life and get's 75,000 dollar bail. Michael was charged with 9 felonies and Murray charged with 1.
What will it take for people to wake up? If I hear one more Michael Jackson fan say, they would rather see Murray charged with manslaughter and maybe get 4 years than nothing, I am going to go mad! This is exactly the type of thing that plays into the hands of a system that allows two kinds of justice.
Murder is murder, and it should not matter to the everyday citizen, the police or prosecutors around the world, if your name has a Dr. in front of it or not! The simple fact that the world sits there and hears these lies that Michael Jackson was a drug addict and there for its ok..is Wrong. I don't care if it were true (which it isn't) and Michael was shooting up outside the stapes center every 5 minutes it doesn't give the Doctors a license for Murder!
We should not accept this, Michael Jackson or not it is wrong and it is a double standard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


These absurd charges do not reflect this article. We are going after the LADA We strike now..while we have the chance.

Join us at www.justice4mj.com
Tweet and email to DA STEVE COOLEY NOW!

http://www.stevecooley.com/

Agree! The fact they are giving preferential treatment to this killer makes you wonder...maybe the family is right, and other people are involved, powerful people, that managed to make the system "cooperate", doesn't it make you wonder?

 

[Beachlover]

When I read these articles I feel so sick to my stomach, Why is this happening before all of our eye's not just Michael Jackson fans but the world. This is dangerous for every human being in the world. Letting doctors walk, who appear to be the best kinds of assassins. Everyday people die due to drugs overdoses not by illegal drugs but drugs given or prescribed by doctors. We don't hear about these people because they are not famous but they are still humans.
Why are people, law enforcement agencies and the legal system so afraid to go after these doctors? Just because you go to medical school and take an oath to protect lives, doesn't mean you should get a free pass. If you kill someone Dr. or not you should be treated the same as any other criminal who takes a life.
They DA in Los Angeles along with the LAPD, in my opinion has given this guy many allowances that regular citizens would not have gotten. When Murray turned himself in, the same way Michael Jackson turned himself in he was not handcuffed. When Michael was arrested his bail was 3 million dollars, he never took a life, yet Dr. Murray takes a life and get's 75,000 dollar bail. Michael was charged with 9 felonies and Murray charged with 1.
What will it take for people to wake up? If I hear one more Michael Jackson fan say, they would rather see Murray charged with manslaughter and maybe get 4 years than nothing, I am going to go mad! This is exactly the type of thing that plays into the hands of a system that allows two kinds of justice.
Murder is murder, and it should not matter to the everyday citizen, the police or prosecutors around the world, if your name has a Dr. in front of it or not! The simple fact that the world sits there and hears these lies that Michael Jackson was a drug addict and there for its ok..is Wrong. I don't care if it were true (which it isn't) and Michael was shooting up outside the stapes center every 5 minutes it doesn't give the Doctors a license for Murder!
We should not accept this, Michael Jackson or not it is wrong and it is a double standard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


These absurd charges do not reflect this article. We are going after the LADA We strike now..while we have the chance.

Join us at www.justice4mj.com
Tweet and email to DA STEVE COOLEY NOW!

http://www.stevecooley.com/

The charges were for two completely different types of crimes. The bail is completely different for these types of charges.

If you are going to make an argument against someone else accused of all the charges Michael was, thats one thing, but this is not even the same kind of crime.

I am sorry you are going to go mad, but you will never convince me to compare Michael Jackson to Conrad Murray in this way. Just because Michael was treated badly does not mean we need to treat someone else just as badly. That makes no sense.

Murray had nothing to do with what happened to Michael Jackson back then. Thats vigilante mentality and I for one will never buy that. I'm sorry.

 

[riviera1992]

Question?

Why would Michael need to be put on an IV drip of Propofol?

I understand the need for it when a person goes under the knife but, would someone just keep sleeping after the Propofol effect dissappears since nothing painful is being done to them that would wake them up.

Once Michael's mind and body was finally shut down, wouldn't he just have slept for a few hours?

BTW, let's all remember that whatever TMZ or Murray says is NOT to be believed 100%. Even if there's some truth to some of the stuff, they're both unreliable.

 

[Soundmind]

Ok....I am NOT wrong. Read page 7 or 8 on the tox report on the autopsy. Thats the same number you have only listed as a different concentration ratio.

Yes, it is very low and likely this level came from prior use of propofol that had already metabolized out of his system. He was still awake when he produced and put that urine into that bottle.

It doesn't mean bolus injection at all. It means Murray gave it another time before that. That is my opinion of that urine in that bottle. Michael WAS awake when it was produced. Maybe when he was already in bed with the IV set up he did not get back up to go to the bathroom.

The bottle being 'spiked' (torn) means that he used it as an IV INFUSION at some time. Maybe not that last night, but if it was spiked, he used it as a drip. You can regulate it with a roller clamp which most IV tubings come with. In that case without a pump he would 'eyeball' a drip rate to produce the correct concentration.

It was my understanding no Propofol infusion set up was found at the scene on that night or in Murrays bag. There was only a bag with tubing that had no drugs added. So.....did he set up the Propofol WITH the other bag hanging and leave it running when he left the room? And after he realized Michael was overdosed, did he then take it down and hide it in his bag?

I am not understanding where the spiked bottle was found. That would be the explanation for giving much more than the 25 mg he said he gave. The bolus would be for induction and the drip would have been left.

That is a dangerous way to hang it with no infusion pump though because the drip rate when eyeballing is not accurate and can change.

showed Propofol

 

[Beachlover]

the point I was trying to make was not whether he was awake or sleep , there was 450 ml? in the bottle , so that would have covered a period of at least 8 ,9 to 10 hours , during those hours he received a very small propofol dose , he did not receive lorazepam , so no drug worked instead of propofol to sedate mj , what was then the point of giving propofol ?

very small amount would have lasted minutes , propofol unlike lorazepam has a very very short duration of action MINUTES , WHAT WAS THE POINT ? we are talking about someone who wanted to be sedated for HOURS . and no one comes and tells me he induced sleep using propofol and MJ then slept on his own . :smilerolleyes:

the 1000mg bottle was found in his bag in the closet , as I said before the expert said they found many not fully empty propofol bottles in the house . They found a 20ml=200mg bottle in the room somewhere , that's the one I want to know whether it was spiked or not , if we want to belive that this is how it was used ( IV drip ) where did the propofol disappear then from the long tube ? he gave flumazenil directly into the short tube . you can't say he cleared the long tube to give flumazenil , he had to stop the drip immediatley if he found him breathless not clear it , right ? there was no point in clearing the long tube , flumazenil has to be injected directly . 2 mg of flumazenil did not need an IV really .

I don't know the urine was from the 8-12 hours from the drugs he received, THAT night is what I am trying to say here. The Propofol might have been a leftover from PREVIOUS nights since as you pointed out it was a very very small dose. He could have produced all that urine in 1 or 2 hours. We don't know that. So, maybe even from 2 nights ago which only shows he was using it prior to this night. He could have had a normal dose that night that kept him asleep all night without any ill effects and the night before had no Propofol. That was a very small amount in the urine.

What everyone has to keep in mind is that if Michael had drugs on the 23rd, the 24th and the 25th, some of the other drugs would still have been in his system, so you can't count them ALL as being from the last night. Yeah, the amounts would be less but they would still have been detected.

I don't think Murray had the Propofol mixed with the long tube. He had it on the shorter side. We don't know how much was left in the larger bag of clear fluids. Or did they say and I missed that? I am thinking he spiked the Propofol into the pigtail and mixed the fluid from there. Once Michael had been asleep he might have just used the Propofol without Lidocaine. He might have pulled off the Propofol and pushed the Flumazenil right in. Thats where I said he might have panicked and done that. I don't know.

They said it was a pigtail 'y' line so there were 2 lines on the actual IV connection and one was found with the Propofol, lidocaine and Flumazenil. The other was found clear. The clear line might not have had a place to put the drugs. Not all lines do. The manufacturers make all types of lines. Some have 'hubs' for adding drugs and some do not. Some use 'needles' on the ports and some are needleless connections that sort of screw on. We don't know exactly what type was there.

I am thinking he had the Propofol hanging when he walked away.

 

[Beachlover]

Question?

Why would Michael need to be put on an IV drip of Propofol?

I understand the need for it when a person goes under the knife but, would someone just keep sleeping after the Propofol effect dissappears since nothing painful is being done to them that would wake them up.

Once Michael's mind and body was finally shut down, wouldn't he just have slept for a few hours?

BTW, let's all remember that whatever TMZ or Murray says is NOT to be believed 100%. Even if there's some truth to some of the stuff, they're both unreliable.

If Michael was such an insomniac and could not sleep with all those other drugs, chances are he needed to have the drip to maintain that sleep or he would have just woken back up. I did not read the TMZ reports except for bits and pieces of what was printed here, but I suspect he needed to have it continuously in order to sleep.

 

[kasume]

What I'd like to know is, how did murray know about this secret compartment??

You just don't know about secret compartments.

 

[Ashtanga]

What I'd like to know is, how did murray know about this secret compartment??

You just don't know about secret compartments.

I do not know. :scratch: But.............

I only know that the family entered the house before the police. The family entered the house and the police allowed, any other person could have easily entered the house without being barred by police. h34r: :doh:

It is a serious investigation. :smilerolleyes:

 

[kasume]

I do not know. :scratch: But.............

I only know that the family entered the house before the police. The family entered the house and the police allowed, any other person could have easily entered the house without being barred by police. h34r: :doh:

It is a serious investigation. :smilerolleyes:

You are right.

There's still no word from Murray about that secret compartment too. He needs to speak up about that.

Because if Murray confesses to it, he's in deeper trouble. If he says he knew nothing about it....well, SOMEONE put it there. Which means someone was in that house other than Murray. (which we already know)

I wonder if fingerprints can be traced on that bottle of propofol inside the compartment....

 

[Ashtanga]

I wonder if fingerprints can be traced on that bottle of propofol inside the compartment....

Exactly that. The family and no other person should have entered the house before the police and it was the duty of the police ban. It was a fatal error. :doh:

The family and any other person could only enter the house after the police did all his investigation work in the house. When the police are on the scene of the facts, they always wear gloves to preserve the fingerprints of all that is in the house (Michael's room). So nothing can be touched on the scene without the use of gloves. Never!

You can give credibility? :scratch:

I really give zero credibility to all that was found in the house. h34r: