Debbie Rowe Wants Michael Jackson's Kids Back -- Going To Court for Custody

[Aquarius]

Please someone explain. The money Debbie received was for giving up her rights as a mother or a divorce settlement?

 

[Lisha]

When I say some people romanticize the relationship between MJ and Debbie, I do not only mean romantic love (IMO it's obvious that they never had that),

I agree; it was a friendship. If something happened for MJ to no longer view her as a friend, then, yes, to him... no more friendship, and it wouldn't, therefore, end up to be" mega everlasting".

.I think by know we should be able to see many of the reasons why if we open our eyes and do not try to excuse everything Debbie Rowe does.

Everything? Not all that many fans, I should think, would try to excuse -everything- Debbie has done. Maybe even Debbie wouldn't excuse everything she has done. I know I can't excuse everything I have ever done, how 'bout you?

But it seems you feel a lot of fans are making a lot of excuses for her that you don't buy.

Sorry, but you do not pay for a gift... It was a business arrangament, not a friendly gift.

True, a gift should be free of charge. But what I can't determine is if right from the start money was involved in any of this. I keep thinking money didn't get in the picture until the divorce was decided upon and then what was voiced might have been "It will take some money for me to be able to start afresh after being married to a celebrity so I can live securely and safely, and to start over, what has always been my life dream is to own a horse ranch one day, MJ. And MJ might have said, "Hmm, let's see if we can make this happen for you, you're my friend." And then, maybe, MJ and Debbie together decided on the amount and terms...it might not have been her giving demands and hanging the kids over his head reminding him of the "gift" they were to him sooo hand over the cash!!!! lol.. Michael might have said, "Let me help you." She not too long ago in an interview mentioned how Michael was always so good to her...I thought she was meaning in the way he took care of her financially after they divorced. :shrugs:

Just seeing both sides as objectively as one can is not making excuses. I am trying to work all this out. Debbie and I are very different types and go about things differently...so I have "questioned" some things, right or wrong of me, all along. But I don't know her personally nor can I see into her heart.

Please someone explain. The money Debbie received was for giving up her rights as a mother or a divorce settlement?

Yes..that is what I still do not think is clear. When did money come into the picture...when Debbie first agreed to have the first baby, or when she agreed to have the second baby, or...when she decided to divorce so she could start a new life and in order for that to be possible and an easier transition, MJ would give her a lump sum right off the start and then payments over a set amount of time.

It might be that MJ was in breach of an agreement but I think she should have then addressed strictly that agreement and not try to manipulate and act like she's all of a sudden all concerned for the children -

Well, I was suggesting that the children came into it as a tactic to finally get MJ to address the breach of an agreement. That is why I was saying it seems maybe Marc and her both do not shy away from doing what they have to do to get results (well, I'm sure within a limit). So many people live by the motto, The End Justifies the Means. The end Debbie was after was to get the payments back on track, because perhaps she felt desperate. Drastic measures stepped in. I do not know, though. I'm trying to make sense of this. Because of the children I wish to understand. I'm not there yet.

As far as I am concerned it's totally different matter to "manipulate" in entertainment, showbiz - which is an accepted part of the game -

,

I think maybe I should pay attention to what you say here. I might be being a little too black and white in my thinking. Thank you for sharing this perspective.

Let's not mix up the two and try to defend Debbie by suggesting that MJ was just as bad. MJ would have NEVER pimped out his children to the media for publicity. He would have NEVER have used them for his own benefit. He protected, raised and loved them all his life. Debbie Rowe can never even dream about being as great of a parent as Michael was.

I was not trying to defend Debbie at all in this. I was sad about MJ being manipulative, so I wasn't excusing her or anyone for being manipulative...I don't like it! But you have offered me an alternate way of looking at it in regards to MJ and entertainment. Thank you. MJ is not here to explain to me how he views manipulation and when he feels it is acceptable or not to use. Again, I am probably being too black and white and that is unfair to MJ.

However, some fans have suggested Debbie now is going to the media to promote for entertainment's sake. Does that change things?

Past? We are talking about present here. The subject of this thread is very much present. So what does tell you that Debbie Rowe changed for the better?

I'm sorry if I annoyed you for bringing up the past. I look through that lens always when trying to evaluate an individual and their actions. I do not see it as being off topic. Perhaps a staff member may correct me on that one. I could be very in the wrong here.

@lisha I'm still working on getting some information for you. for the time being though, yea the marriage was a buisness arangment. like I said they weren't living together and he bought her, her own place. your right though it is said that michael didn't want the paps stalking and harassing her. so he bought her a house away from all that with security or something. If that was really the case though, why didn't michael just have debbie live with him at neverland, his WIFE? there would have been no safer place for her then with him at neverland. NO BODY could even try to get into neverland without permision.

Hi, michaeljackson&lisamarie! I think the reason maybe why Michael didn't have Debbie just live at Neverland is because part of their arrangement would have been Debbie continuing working in LA. That's what she wanted. It was too long of a commute; it would have made her working in LA impossible. And you say "his WIFE" but as has been discussed it wasn't the typical kind of marriage so she was not the typical kind of wife, therefore what are you meaning by "his WIFE"? Why be surprised?

Oh my..................... I probably shouldn't be doin' all this discussing... if I am not adding to the thread, be bold and let me know and I will go on my way.

 

[michaeljackson&lisamarie]

I agree; it was a friendship. If something happened for MJ to no longer view her as a friend, then, yes, to him... no more friendship, and it wouldn't, therefore, end up to be" mega everlasting".


Everything? Not all that many fans, I should think, would try to excuse -everything- Debbie has done. Maybe even Debbie wouldn't excuse everything she has done. I know I can't excuse everything I have ever done, how 'bout you?

But it seems you feel a lot of fans are making a lot of excuses for her that you don't buy.


True, a gift should be free of charge. But what I can't determine is if right from the start money was involved in any of this. I keep thinking money didn't get in the picture until the divorce was decided upon and then what was voiced might have been "It will take some money for me to be able to start afresh after being married to a celebrity so I can live securely and safely, and to start over, what has always been my life dream is to own a horse ranch one day, MJ. And MJ might have said, "Hmm, let's see if we can make this happen for you, you're my friend." And then, maybe, MJ and Debbie together decided on the amount and terms...it might not have been her giving demands and hanging the kids over his head reminding him of the "gift" they were to him sooo hand over the cash!!!! lol.. Michael might have said, "Let me help you." She not too long ago in an interview mentioned how Michael was always so good to her...I thought she was meaning in the way he took care of her financially after they divorced. :shrugs:

Just seeing both sides as objectively as one can is not making excuses. I am trying to work all this out. Debbie and I are very different types and go about things differently...so I have "questioned" some things, right or wrong of me, all along. But I don't know her personally nor can I see into her heart.



Yes..that is what I still do not think is clear. When did money come into the picture...when Debbie first agreed to have the first baby, or when she agreed to have the second baby, or...when she decided to divorce so she could start a new life and in order for that to be possible and an easier transition, MJ would give her a lump sum right off the start and then payments over a set amount of time.



Well, I was suggesting that the children came into it as a tactic to finally get MJ to address the breach of an agreement. That is why I was saying it seems maybe Marc and her both do not shy away from doing what they have to do to get results (well, I'm sure within a limit). So many people live by the motto, The End Justifies the Means. The end Debbie was after was to get the payments back on track, because perhaps she felt desperate. Drastic measures stepped in. I do not know, though. I'm trying to make sense of this. Because of the children I wish to understand. I'm not there yet.

,

I think maybe I should pay attention to what you say here. I might be being a little too black and white in my thinking. Thank you for sharing this perspective.




I was not trying to defend Debbie at all in this. I was sad about MJ being manipulative, so I wasn't excusing her or anyone for being manipulative...I don't like it! But you have offered me an alternate way of looking at it in regards to MJ and entertainment. Thank you. MJ is not here to explain to me how he views manipulation and when he feels it is acceptable or not to use. Again, I am probably being too black and white and that is unfair to MJ.

However, some fans have suggested Debbie now is going to the media to promote for entertainment's sake. Does that change things?



I'm sorry if I annoyed you for bringing up the past. I look through that lens always when trying to evaluate an individual and their actions. I do not see it as being off topic. Perhaps a staff member may correct me on that one. I could be very in the wrong here.




Hi, michaeljackson&lisamarie! I think the reason maybe why Michael didn't have Debbie just live at Neverland is because part of their arrangement would have been Debbie continuing working in LA. That's what she wanted. It was too long of a commute; it would have made her working in LA impossible. And you say "his WIFE" but as has been discussed it wasn't the typical kind of marriage so she was not the typical kind of wife, therefore what are you meaning by "his WIFE"? Why be surprised?

Oh my..................... I probably shouldn't be doin' all this discussing... if I am not adding to the thread, be bold and let me know and I will go on my way.

hi lisha, sorry to confuse you on my statement "his wife". when I said "his wife" I was trying to make the point that it wasn't a real marriage. that it was a buisness arangment. because if she was really his wife in the real since of it. debbie would of been at neverlaned with him. no question about that. he would of wanted her at neverland with him and their child. so he could protect them and then some.

I hope you get what I'm trying to say.

 

[Lisha]

^ Oh, I do, yes, now I do. Thank you for restating and making it more clear. And I think you are probably right; if it was a conventional marriage then all of that would have been in place. Good point.

 

[PurdyYungThang84]

I never heard about this Ian Thomas so I looked him up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Thomas_(Belgian_musician)

According to Wikipedia he's some kind of Belgian Justin Bieber. It seems the whole thing has to do with Schaffel, because Wikipedia writes:



One of the articles about Schaffel and Debbie's engagement mentioned that Schaffel currently manages Lance Bass.

What the f-------------------------------------------ck?!?!?!? Video director now??? You know, I had a soft spot in my heart for Debbie for a long time but now...... F-ck ALL of these people man. ALL of them. I'm SO over all of these opportunists lining up one after a f-cking 'nother for their turn to swing the MJ-bat. Jesus...



:ranting



Sorry all, I'm so irritated right now....

 

[PurdyYungThang84]

Re: Debbie Rowe Wants Michael Jackson's Kids Back -- Going To Court for Custody Read more: http://w

I agree with you. and I'm also sickened that he told debbie rowe yes to carrying his kids. he didn't exactly choose her though. debbie was obsessed with michael. she kept offering to have kids for michael for years. even before he even got together with lisa marie. he use to always tell debbie NO though. he use to always turn her down.

then he and lisa fell inlove and got married. at one point the honeymoon stage was over. they started to have problems. they had so much pressure. the media was against them, attacking them at every turn. calling their marriage a sham. then to add lisa's mother priscilla didn't like michael and wanted the marriage to be over. the main problem though was that michael wanted to have children right away, but lisa didn't want to have them at the time.

so michael use to confide in debbie about the whole baby thing. instead of debbie being a true friend and supporting michael, telling him to stay strong and work it out with his wife. she saw it as an opportunity for her to get payed and try to take michael for herself. so again she started offering her womb to him. telling him that she will carry his kids for him. michael was really vulnerable and desperate at the time. so he finally gave in and said yes.

debbie got a rude awakening later though. she really thought carrying michael's kids would make michael fall inlove with her, NOT. michael just wasn't feeling her that way. yes, he married her, but it wasn't for the reason that it should be when two people get married. michael wasn't in love with debbie. he married debbie to get proper rights over his kids. he didn't even want debbie living with him. when michael married debbie. he bought her, her own place. he did not want her living with him at neverland. and when debbie realized she couldn't get michael to fall for her. that's when she started to show her true colors and the rest is history.

I think it's a slippery slope for any of us fans to definitively say "how Michael felt about [insert name here]". None of use can really say how any of that went down because none of us were in the room when decisions were made. We can try to fit the pieces together to get the big picture figured out but honestly, we never truly will; due mostly to Michael preferring to keep private things private.

Maybe he did, at least for a time, grow to love Debbie for the emotional support that she offered during his discord/divorce from LMP. Maybe he didn't. None of us can solidly answer that question because we aren't Debbie and we damn sure aren't Michael lol, all that ANY of us could have to say on this subject would be based on our own opinions or desires. That's just the reality of it. We don't know what occurred between them behind closed doors (for the positive or negative), and it's wrong to name us filling in the blanks with what we personally think or feel as "facts" of Michael's life. Forgive me, I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do or how to think. But I had to say something lol, it really makes me squirm when people (fans and non-fans) state how Michael felt or what Michael thought about people as "facts", when Michael himself was never explicit about those details, you know? Anyways...

I can, however, effectively judge quantifiable events. Like Debbie's recent interesting-ass, left field career focus shift lol. Which to me, through following the context clues of documented happenings, stinks of wanting to have the kids closer in order to have unlimited access to the publicity buzz that they can create so that that publicity can be applied to designated projects. Just like every other schmuck... :no:

My former sentiment still stands, they can all go to hell lol.

 

[HIStory]

True, a gift should be free of charge. But what I can't determine is if right from the start money was involved in any of this. I keep thinking money didn't get in the picture until the divorce was decided upon and then what was voiced might have been "It will take some money for me to be able to start afresh after being married to a celebrity so I can live securely and safely, and to start over, what has always been my life dream is to own a horse ranch one day, MJ. And MJ might have said, "Hmm, let's see if we can make this happen for you, you're my friend." And then, maybe, MJ and Debbie together decided on the amount and terms...it might not have been her giving demands and hanging the kids over his head reminding him of the "gift" they were to him sooo hand over the cash!!!! lol.. Michael might have said, "Let me help you." She not too long ago in an interview mentioned how Michael was always so good to her...I thought she was meaning in the way he took care of her financially after they divorced. :shrugs:

Just seeing both sides as objectively as one can is not making excuses. I am trying to work all this out. Debbie and I are very different types and go about things differently...so I have "questioned" some things, right or wrong of me, all along. But I don't know her personally nor can I see into her heart.

Like said, that marriage wasn't a real marriage. It was a well planned arrangement from the get go. As such it does not make sense to me that money talks would only come in later, but at the end of the day does it matter when it did? Bottom line is she gave up her children for money and then she used and continues to use them and her connection to MJ as a leverage to stay relevant. Either for money or for media attention to promote something (like for this Ian Thomas currently) or for whatever reason.

I'm sorry if I annoyed you for bringing up the past. I look through that lens always when trying to evaluate an individual and their actions. I do not see it as being off topic. Perhaps a staff member may correct me on that one. I could be very in the wrong here.

You are missing my point. I wasn't annoyed that you brought up the past. Past and present need to be seen together to assess people. You in that post I reacted to asked what if she and Schaffel changed and the past is past? That's what I reacted to by saying since there is a current case of questionable and shady behavior by Debbie Rowe and Marc Schaffel why do you think they changed for the better? That current behavior is the very subject of this very thread after all!

In fact I'm in favour of not just dragging out some tiny details about someone's behavior but looking at past and future together - patterns, if you will. And when you take everything together - past and present - those patterns of Debbie Rowe and Marc Schaffel do not look very good IMO. Those problems with their characters are not just in the past. They are very much present as the subject of this thread shows.

 

[jamba]

Jamba you forgot the big Charity event where the kids were on camera promoting the fake charity. They even had titles and were posted on the charity page. How about the contract binding the children for life which is illegal. Maybe you mentioned those and I missed them?

Hi, Petra--What big charity event? Sorry I don't have that on my list. Do you have a link? The GMA interview with KJ and PPB was to promote the Heal the World, right? Re the contract for the life of PPB-- w. Howard Mann (right?) that wasn't public, was it? (I am focusing on the public media events in my list.)



Re the Debbie discussions, this is my take on it:

MJ wanted kids--badly.It wasn't going to happen with LMP (for whatever reason). (And even though she was his 'real' wife, they did not live together at Neverland but maintained separate homes.)

Debbie, whom MJ had known long term, offered to have his kids. Debbie got pregnant. MJ told KJ, and KJ pressured MJ to marry Debbie. So before the KJ pressure, MJ did not plan to marry Debbie, but he did it so he must have agreed it was the better plan. The original plan was Debbie would let MJ be the father he wanted to be--meaning a fulltime Dad raising the kids on his own--and Debbie would be able to visit. Even though they got married, this plan remained the same.

Now my question is--when were the financial arrangements made? I am guessing before Debbie got pregnant with Prince, which would mean before KJ convinced MJ to marry Debbie. They could have been revised later, but I feel pretty sure that the 2 of them made a plan (meaning a financial plan) before DR got pregnant.

Debbie has Prince, then Paris, and then it was found out she can't have any more kids. She and MJ were planning to have more kids until that happened.

You would have to know the current CA laws at the time, but CA does protect the mother's rights even if the parents are not married, and there is no doubt that DR gave birth to 2 kids that MJ raised. So although DR had waived her rights legally, she could change her mind, and did so and got her rights back.

This IMO was a smart move not only b/c of the possibility MJ could have been found guilty in 05 but also to preserve her rights down the road. So when MJ passed, DR had leverage re how the 2 kids would be raised by KJ and also to preserve her right to see her kids.

She was never only a surrogate and nothing more. She always wanted to be connected with the kids. There are many photos of her holding the kids as babies and she looks very happy and tender. She traveled with MJ and Prince. She wanted to see them more often--she was trying and it wasn't happening--and this was another reason to get the legal arrangements changed.

After MJ passed, she started to connect more with Paris, although when MJ left for Bahrain, he and the kids flew back to USA so DR could visit her kids as per the custody arrangements.

I consider her the lesser of 2 evils as far as Paris is concerned. KJ is too beholden to her religious beliefs and her own family and she is way older than Paris--there is a 60 year age difference.

To see DR and Paris together I can see they love each other. DR was there in the hospital after Paris' suicide attempt just about every day. I think that was a big wakeup call for DR.

I am hoping DR's motives are good when it comes to Paris, and although I don't like that she got so much $$ from MJ, she gave him 2 beautiful kids that made his life joyful, so I am willing to cut her some slack. I also feel Paris needs a comforting female presence in her life and if DR can give that to her, I am for it.

We don't know if DR will file for custody--it's just a bunch of tabloid gossip at this point.

I am worried about Paris b/c of the 3 kids, she is the most vulnerable, so I hope that Debbie can help her. It's up to people who are there in Paris' life to help her and Debbie is one of the key people and always will be b/c she is her mother and Paris regards her that way.

Paris was the one most exploited by the media b/c she is so beautiful and she also took a lot of flack over the granny-napping both from the media and from Jacksons for standing up to them.

IMO Paris is not safe with the Jacksons. Even if KJ means well, she lets things happen too much--like LaToya and Mr. Pink, etc.

 

[HIStory]

MJ wanted kids--badly. LMP told him she didn't want to have kids with him--now how that happened IDK, but obviously after she filed for divorce, etc, it wasn't going to happen. (Also let's remember even though she was his 'real' wife, they did not live together at Neverland but maintained separate homes.)

You mean LMP and MJ? They did not live in Neverland, but they did live together. Michael lived in her house in LA at the time when their marriage was still going well. That was definitely a real marriage as opposed to the marriage with Debbie.

 

[michaeljackson&lisamarie]

Re: Debbie Rowe Wants Michael Jackson's Kids Back -- Going To Court for Custody Read more: http://w

I think it's a slippery slope for any of us fans to definitively say "how Michael felt about [insert name here]". None of use can really say how any of that went down because none of us were in the room when decisions were made. We can try to fit the pieces together to get the big picture figured out but honestly, we never truly will; due mostly to Michael preferring to keep private things private.

Maybe he did, at least for a time, grow to love Debbie for the emotional support that she offered during his discord/divorce from LMP. Maybe he didn't. None of us can solidly answer that question because we aren't Debbie and we damn sure aren't Michael lol, all that ANY of us could have to say on this subject would be based on our own opinions or desires. That's just the reality of it. We don't know what occurred between them behind closed doors (for the positive or negative), and it's wrong to name us filling in the blanks with what we personally think or feel as "facts" of Michael's life. Forgive me, I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do or how to think. But I had to say something lol, it really makes me squirm when people (fans and non-fans) state how Michael felt or what Michael thought about people as "facts", when Michael himself was never explicit about those details, you know? Anyways...

I can, however, effectively judge quantifiable events. Like Debbie's recent interesting-ass, left field career focus shift lol. Which to me, through following the context clues of documented happenings, stinks of wanting to have the kids closer in order to have unlimited access to the publicity buzz that they can create so that that publicity can be applied to designated projects. Just like every other schmuck... :no:

My former sentiment still stands, they can all go to hell lol.

hi, for me I think it's pretty obvious how michael felt about debbie rowe. you do make a good point though. I do think he loved her in the very begining. and when I say that I mean a friendship kind of love. at one point he really thought debbie was a true friend. unfortunately that all changed and debbie showed herself.

I love your username by the way.

 

[Lisha]

Re: Debbie Rowe Wants Michael Jackson's Kids Back -- Going To Court for Custody Read more: http://w

I wasn't annoyed that you brought up the past. Past and present need to be seen together to assess people. You in that post I reacted to asked what if she and Schaffel changed and the past is past? That's what I reacted to by saying since there is a current case of questionable and shady behavior by Debbie Rowe and Marc Schaffel why do you think they changed for the better? That current behavior is the very subject of this very thread after all!

In fact I'm in favour of not just dragging out some tiny details about someone's behavior but looking at past and future together - patterns, if you will. And when you take everything together - past and present - those patterns of Debbie Rowe and Marc Schaffel do not look very good IMO. Those problems with their characters are not just in the past. They are very much present as the subject of this thread shows.

Oh, I see now, thank you for explaining. You make good points in both these paragraphs.

I think it's a slippery slope for any of us fans to definitively say "how Michael felt about [insert name here]". None of use can really say how any of that went down because none of us were in the room when decisions were made. We can try to fit the pieces together to get the big picture figured out but honestly, we never truly will; due mostly to Michael preferring to keep private things private.

 

[barbee0715]

I agree with Prince that his college prep studies should not be interrupted...he is on track to fulfill a goal of his; that should be respected. He has his sites on USC...a competitive school, as far as who gets in or not. He needs that strong GPA, a high SAT/ACT score, community service, examples of leadership, etc. No doubt he has been working hard towards all of this so his application shines. He is a focused young man; he doesn't need any grief or hassle about where he is going to end up living (or who with) in the next year or so.

But again, I do not know exactly what is true or not. Prince hasn't tweeted to confirm his thoughts on all of this. We haven't heard from him personally...only a "supposed source" via Radar Online.

That's true-everything is coming from "sources" talking to Radar Online and TMZ. I don't trust any of it. But I would like to say that I dearly hope all THREE of those kids end up graduating from college-I think Michael would have wanted that.
LaToya and Janet both wanted to go to school and were not allowed to-they had to go into show biz-and Michael tried to get Tito's boys to go but they had entertainment dreams. I'm not sure if they ever actually attended college, but I remember them saying that Michael talked to them about it often and wanted to pay for it.

 

[LastTear]

^^^^^ Ordinarily I would agree re sources and info coming from the likes of TMZ, however, we know that Debbie can call into TMZ when she wants, so this is either accurate info and Debbie is seeking custody or she is finding it convenient for this rumour to continue as she could have shot it down in one phone call. If it's the latter then Debbie has reached rock bottom imo, doesn't come any lower.

 

[michaeljackson&lisamarie]

You mean LMP and MJ? They did not live in Neverland, but they did live together. Michael lived in her house in LA at the time when their marriage was still going well. That was definitely a real marriage as opposed to the marriage with Debbie.

yes, you are very much correct. they stayed at lisa's hidden hills house. they would stay at neverland on weekends. take lisa's kids ben and riley to get on the rides and all that fun stuff.

 

[Ashtanga]

Something very rotten coming on the way :fear: .........

 

[Joyce]

Right now everyone is hating on Debbie, but Debbie is a better Mother than Katherine could ever hope to be. Keep in mind that MJ had an arrangement with both his wives. At first with Debbie, the arrangement was about her being a surrogate and the children were gifts to MJ for no money. But, that all changed when MJ proposed to her and they were married. That ended any the "surrogacy" arrangement. After the divorce Debbie received alimony. Lisa wanted a recording contract and to be a star asap, and she admitted that she loved standing next to him. Being in the spotlight as Mrs Michael Jackson probably reminded her of her spotlight days before her Daddy overdosed. MJ wanted babies asap. She got her wish of being Mrs Michael Jackson, feeling high & intoxicated as she has stated, but MJ held off on the record deal, and thank goodness he did. She lied and did not fulfill her end of the agreement/arrangement. It doesn't matter why she didn't fulfill her end of the agreement. She should have told MJ and not continued with the lie. I have no respect for Lisa at all. That marriage ended quickly thank goodness. As far as Marc S is concerned, he is now a music producer and does not work in the porn industry. At this point, they are only engaged. People snap at Marc saying he is gay. Maybe he is, I don't know. That shouldn't matter. People change....just like Lisa was a junkie in her younger days, hopefully she isn't now. Debbie just wants the children to be happy and safe.

 

[Justthefacts]

edit edit edit

 

[Justthefacts]

Right now everyone is hating on Debbie, but Debbie is a better Mother than Katherine could ever hope to be. Keep in mind that MJ had an arrangement with both his wives. At first with Debbie, the arrangement was about her being a surrogate and the children were gifts to MJ for no money. But, that all changed when MJ proposed to her and they were married. That ended any the "surrogacy" arrangement. After the divorce Debbie received alimony. Lisa wanted a recording contract and to be a star asap, and she admitted that she loved standing next to him. Being in the spotlight as Mrs Michael Jackson probably reminded her of her spotlight days before her Daddy overdosed. MJ wanted babies asap. She got her wish of being Mrs Michael Jackson, feeling high & intoxicated as she has stated, but MJ held off on the record deal, and thank goodness he did. She lied and did not fulfill her end of the agreement/arrangement. It doesn't matter why she didn't fulfill her end of the agreement. She should have told MJ and not continued with the lie. I have no respect for Lisa at all. That marriage ended quickly thank goodness. As far as Marc S is concerned, he is now a music producer and does not work in the porn industry. At this point, they are only engaged. People snap at Marc saying he is gay. Maybe he is, I don't know. That shouldn't matter. People change....just like Lisa was a junkie in her younger days, hopefully she isn't now. Debbie just wants the children to be happy and safe.

Debbie was never a Mother in the first place

Lisa getting a recording contract had nothing to do with Michael

Lisa has zero to do with Debbie and all of the things Debbie has done

No, people snap at all of the money he stole from Michael and all of the bullshit he said about Michael. That Debbie herself talked about so wrong on that part

So to defend Debbie you have to bring up mistakes Lisa made in her life? Deflection does not work.


If Debbie wanted the kids to be happy she would not have had her neice selling PICS to TMZ would not have called Prince unruly and would shut her damn mouth about Blanket. Nice try

 

[michaeljackson&lisamarie]

Right now everyone is hating on Debbie, but Debbie is a better Mother than Katherine could ever hope to be. Keep in mind that MJ had an arrangement with both his wives. At first with Debbie, the arrangement was about her being a surrogate and the children were gifts to MJ for no money. But, that all changed when MJ proposed to her and they were married. That ended any the "surrogacy" arrangement. After the divorce Debbie received alimony. Lisa wanted a recording contract and to be a star asap, and she admitted that she loved standing next to him. Being in the spotlight as Mrs Michael Jackson probably reminded her of her spotlight days before her Daddy overdosed. MJ wanted babies asap. She got her wish of being Mrs Michael Jackson, feeling high & intoxicated as she has stated, but MJ held off on the record deal, and thank goodness he did. She lied and did not fulfill her end of the agreement/arrangement. It doesn't matter why she didn't fulfill her end of the agreement. She should have told MJ and not continued with the lie. I have no respect for Lisa at all. That marriage ended quickly thank goodness. As far as Marc S is concerned, he is now a music producer and does not work in the porn industry. At this point, they are only engaged. People snap at Marc saying he is gay. Maybe he is, I don't know. That shouldn't matter. People change....just like Lisa was a junkie in her younger days, hopefully she isn't now. Debbie just wants the children to be happy and safe.

WOW I don't even know what to say to this entire post. just un freakin believable. you go right on ahead and feel and believe what you want. more power to you hon. we get it, we get it, debbie is a SAINT who can do no wrong in your eyes. the truth is though she's farrrrrrrr from a saint, not even close to being one.

 

[HIStory]

Right now everyone is hating on Debbie, but Debbie is a better Mother than Katherine could ever hope to be. Keep in mind that MJ had an arrangement with both his wives. At first with Debbie, the arrangement was about her being a surrogate and the children were gifts to MJ for no money. But, that all changed when MJ proposed to her and they were married. That ended any the "surrogacy" arrangement. After the divorce Debbie received alimony. Lisa wanted a recording contract and to be a star asap, and she admitted that she loved standing next to him. Being in the spotlight as Mrs Michael Jackson probably reminded her of her spotlight days before her Daddy overdosed. MJ wanted babies asap. She got her wish of being Mrs Michael Jackson, feeling high & intoxicated as she has stated, but MJ held off on the record deal, and thank goodness he did. She lied and did not fulfill her end of the agreement/arrangement. It doesn't matter why she didn't fulfill her end of the agreement. She should have told MJ and not continued with the lie. I have no respect for Lisa at all. That marriage ended quickly thank goodness. As far as Marc S is concerned, he is now a music producer and does not work in the porn industry. At this point, they are only engaged. People snap at Marc saying he is gay. Maybe he is, I don't know. That shouldn't matter. People change....just like Lisa was a junkie in her younger days, hopefully she isn't now. Debbie just wants the children to be happy and safe.

Oh, please... :doh:

I don't know why Debbie Rowe fans want to make everything about LMP. What kind of strange complex is it that in order to try to "defend" Debbie Rowe they always have to bring up and bash LMP? This case has nothing to do with LMP and no amount of LMP-bashing will make Debbie Rowe look better.

And Katherine Jackson is not the best mother of the world, but you must be joking when calling Debbie Rowe a better mother than her. Katherine actually raised her children, you know. Unlike Debbie Rowe she never said she was not interested in raising them. Unlike Debbie Rowe she never sold them for money. Bonding with your daughter a little when she's 15 does not make you a great mother. You have no idea what it is to be a mother if in your world Debbie Rowe is a better mother than a mother who actually DID raise her children. All 9 if them!

And your making excuses for Marc Schaffel just because he befriends Debbie Rowe who you adore is another :doh:. Please do not pretend that fans' problem with Schaffel is that he is gay because it is not. Not even that he was in the porn industry. There have been enough examples of all the crap he pulled on MJ over the years, including, but not limited to accusing him of child molestation. Isn't it a bit hypocritical that you continue to bash LMP on every occasion you can, even if she has nothing to do with a subject, but we are supposed to forgive Marc Schaffel who did lot worse things to MJ? Just because he is dear Debbie's friend/fiancé now? People change yes, but there is nothing that would indicate that Schaffel changed. He is the same manipulative opportunistic liar he always has been. A good example is what he said in Sullivan's book or this very case that we are discussing in this thread, for that matter. Because it's an odd "coincidence" that all these tabloid news about him and Debbie and MJ's kids pop up in the media when Schaffel has someone to promote...

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

Deborah never raised the kids, that's not a mother. She never worried about being present in their lives when they still had their father, that's not a mother. Katherine, along with Joe sold their children for money as soon as they realized they had talent but she raised them and was more involved in their growing. Deborah has never done such a thing.

Let's clear some things up. None of the wives Michael got married were honorable to him, NONE, no matter if his first marriage was real. LMP knew how bad Michael wanted to be a father, she lied to him nonetheless. So since Deborah herself offered to conceive and give birth to Jr. and Paris, Michael accepted, Deborah gave up her parental rights for money and all the times she filed custody when he was still here, she wanted to get more money. Where was she when the children were growing up, where was she when Michael passed? They could both share the custody to raise them and take care of them but she's been only interested in the money. It's insulting and ridiculous to call her a mother just because she shares DNA with those poor orphaned things.

 

[Treasure]

Deborah never raised the kids, that's not a mother. She never worried about being present in their lives when they still had their father, that's not a mother. Katherine, along with Joe sold their children for money as soon as they realized they had talent but she raised them and was more involved in their growing. Deborah has never done such a thing.

Let's clear some things up. None of the wives Michael got married were honorable to him, NONE, no matter if his first marriage was real. LMP knew how bad Michael wanted to be a father, she lied to him nonetheless. So since Deborah herself offered to conceive and give birth to Jr. and Paris, Michael accepted, Deborah gave up her parental rights for money and all the times she filed custody when he was still here, she wanted to get more money. Where was she when the children were growing up, where was she when Michael passed? They could both share the custody to raise them and take care of them but she's been only interested in the money. It's insulting and ridiculous to call her a mother just because she shares DNA with those poor orphaned things.

Maybe it's my lack of knowledge here but just as a few others I like facts too
Didn't Debbie helping raise the kids when she was married to Michael? I thought their marriage was real too ...Maybe there wasnt enough love between them but it was real, wasn't it?
I always believed (as I've read and heard) that they arranged in forhand that those kids would be Michael's ..that that was the reason she could not ask for custody..I honestly believe (and forgive me if I am wrong) that Debbie was the only person of this planet who made Michael the happiest man..she gave him what he wanted most in his life ...his dear children. And I am still thankful for that , as he deserved them.
That he gave Debbie money after their marriage was peanuts for him...Michael wouldn't have wanted to Share custody with her...that was their agreement at that time.
Now all we can say is : How can a mother give up on her babies?? I don't have the answer to that...I have 2 sons and 1 daughter myself and can not even think about giving up on them....But I honestly believe she did out of love for Michael ...which I secretly do understand ...after all his happiness meant a lot to us.

Now that Michael is gone for almost 5 years and we all see that Katherine isn't getting younger, we all question if the kids are on their place ..I personally never had problems with the kids being with Katherine, after all that was Michael's will.

I think for some of us fans it is hard to accept the kids are anywhere but with Michael....a lot of us think it's all because of the money huh? but we'll have to accept they have to live somewhere ..I think Debbie has every right, she is their mother, weather we like it or not.
And this is why these poor things are not orphans!

 

[michaeljackson&lisamarie]

Maybe it's my lack of knowledge here but just as a few others I like facts too
Didn't Debbie helping raise the kids when she was married to Michael? I thought their marriage was real too ...Maybe there wasnt enough love between them but it was real, wasn't it?
I always believed (as I've read and heard) that they arranged in forhand that those kids would be Michael's ..that that was the reason she could not ask for custody..I honestly believe (and forgive me if I am wrong) that Debbie was the only person of this planet who made Michael the happiest man..she gave him what he wanted most in his life ...his dear children. And I am still thankful for that , as he deserved them.
That he gave Debbie money after their marriage was peanuts for him...Michael wouldn't have wanted to Share custody with her...that was their agreement at that time.
Now all we can say is : How can a mother give up on her babies?? I don't have the answer to that...I have 2 sons and 1 daughter myself and can not even think about giving up on them....But I honestly believe she did out of love for Michael ...which I secretly do understand ...after all his happiness meant a lot to us.

Now that Michael is gone for almost 5 years and we all see that Katherine isn't getting younger, we all question if the kids are on their place ..I personally never had problems with the kids being with Katherine, after all that was Michael's will.

I think for some of us fans it is hard to accept the kids are anywhere but with Michael....a lot of us think it's all because of the money huh? but we'll have to accept they have to live somewhere ..I think Debbie has every right, she is their mother, weather we like it or not.
And this is why these poor things are not orphans!

NO, michael's marriage to debbie rowe was not real. It was a buisness arrangment.

 

[Treasure]

NO, michael's marriage to debbie rowe was not real. It was a buisness arrangment.

a marriage is a marriage! (the thoughts/reason's behind it does not make it real or unreal)

 

[HIStory]

The 8 million dollars+house Debbie got for the kids make me doubt she did it "out of love" and not for that money. Especially when she kept playing Michael for money in the following years as well. It wasn't a "gift". What you pay for is not a gift.

 

[HIStory]

a marriage is a marriage! (the thoughts/reason's behind it does not make it real or unreal)

Well, if by "real marriage" you only mean the legal sense, then yes, it was a real marriage.

 

[marebear]

Michael picked Katherine and Diana Ross to take care of his children if something happened to him. I respect that no matter what because he was their mother and father their whole life. He never chose Debbie and made sure to mention he wasn't married to her anymore. She has no rights with Blanket. It's not hate Debbie but she is not who Michael wanted to raise his kids. His actions and wishes in his will says a lot to what Michael felt and wanted.

If she actually wants a genuine relationship with them than that is for Prince and Paris to decide. Custody? She has no rights in my opinion and the kids will be adults soon enough and I doubt they will want to leave Katherine. They have a strong bond with her no matter what we think of Katherine at times. That cannot be ignored.

 

[PurdyYungThang84]

Right now everyone is hating on Debbie, but Debbie is a better Mother than Katherine could ever hope to be.

This is just a false statement lol. 20 years of bearing and raising children compared with a summer or two of visitations? I mean, they just don't even go in the same category...

Keep in mind that MJ had an arrangement with both his wives. At first with Debbie, the arrangement was about her being a surrogate and the children were gifts to MJ for no money. But, that all changed when MJ proposed to her and they were married. That ended any the "surrogacy" arrangement. After the divorce Debbie received alimony.

Did you ever think that he married her for sake of the children? So that when they got older, they'd know that they were conceived from a marriage and not from a "business merger". I know that'd give me a complex lol. And none of us KNOW what true arrangements were made or why they were made. Whose to say that their marriage wasn't a cover for their business merger? And that doesn't have to mean that Michael didn't care for her. But whose to say?

Lisa wanted a recording contract and to be a star asap,and she admitted that she loved standing next to him

She voiced in the same interview that you're referencing that this was never the case for her. Why are some things she's says true then others false according to the image of her that you want to paint?

You're taking the "loved standing next to him" part out of context, which she pretty clearly explained in the interview, so I'm lost as to how you came to this conclusion. Michael was a compelling person to be in the presence of and she loved being able to be so close to such a strong presence. She never said that she loved the spotlight...

Being in the spotlight as Mrs Michael Jackson probably reminded her of her spotlight days before her Daddy overdosed.

She said aspects of Michael's personality reminded her of her father, not the feeling of being in the spotlight. For a woman that's made like 7 public appearances in the last 25 years or so lol, you sure do color her to be obsessed with the spotlight lol...

MJ wanted babies asap. She got her wish of being Mrs Michael Jackson, feeling high & intoxicated as she has stated, but MJ held off on the record deal, and thank goodness he did.

I mean..... where did you even get that from?

She lied and did not fulfill her end of the agreement/arrangement. It doesn't matter why she didn't fulfill her end of the agreement. She should have told MJ and not continued with the lie. I have no respect for Lisa at all. That marriage ended quickly thank goodness.

If anything, Michael and Lisa married directly out of love, so I'm missing something as to how that was an "arrangement". They hurt each other. Michael was cruel to her too. If you recall in the very same interview, Michael threatened to have a baby elsewhere if Lisa didn't get pregnant right away, WHO SAYS THAT TO THEIR WIFE lol??? That was a hurtful thing to do, and Lisa found ways to hurt him back. They were two lovers at odds with each other, this wasn't a shady business deal gone sour. Feel however you feel about Lisa, sure. But don't twist facts to suit your sentiment, that's just wrong.

As far as Marc S is concerned, he is now a music producer and does not work in the porn industry. At this point, they are only engaged. People snap at Marc saying he is gay. Maybe he is, I don't know. That shouldn't matter. People change....just like Lisa was a junkie in her younger days, hopefully she isn't now. Debbie just wants the children to be happy and safe.

Why would a gay man be engaged to a woman, especially if he's come out??? Anyways.. I don't know if anyone knows what "Debbie wants" these days, hence the discussions in this thread...

For the record, I'm not a Debbie fan or an LMP fan. Not for Debbie cuz she doesn't do anything in the entertainment industry or the arts for me to be a "fan" of lol. And not LMP cuz I'm not familiar enough with any of her music to have an opinion formed. I do try to hear both of their sides of the story though. It's important to take information as it's presented and not try to twist it into what we WANT to have happened. :worried:

 

[Treasure]

The 8 million dollars+house Debbie got for the kids make me doubt she did it "out of love" and not for that money. Especially when she kept playing Michael for money in the following years as well. It wasn't a "gift". What you pay for is not a gift.

I would love to see where this is to read? what source?

 

[HIStory]

I would love to see where this is to read? what source?

They are in court documents. Ivy summarized it about a week or two ago on another forum for another discussion, so I will quote her post here:

She filed for divorce six months later – accepting a pay-off worth £4.2million over nine years, in return for giving up her custodial rights to the children.

-----------------------------------------------------------

In the 2005 custody hearing, Jackson's lawyer Thomas Hall told Judge Stephen Lachs, "Mr. Jackson was under an agreement with petitioner [Rowe] here, which he was to pay her -- did pay her about $4 [million] or $5 million up front, gave her a mansion in Beverly Hills, and then was to pay $900,000 a year for a number of years if she abided by agreement terms."

-------------------------------------------------------------

Rowe Vrs. Jackson Court Case, NYPost, 25th August, 2006

Back in 1999, Michael Jackson gave Debbie Rowe over $8 million in support and legal fees in their divorce settlement. Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Robert A. Schnider ordered Michael Jackson to pay ex – wife Deborah Rowe $60,000 to go to lawyers fees that she incurred while trying to win visitation rights to the couple’s two children. Judge Schnider noted that Rowe had already received a financial settlement of $8 million from Michael, commenting “She has millions of dollars, so she should be able to contribute to her own fees.”