[Discussion] Sexual Abuse Claims Against MJ Estate - Robson/ Safechuck/ Doe

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I reread what Ivy posted at the time, apparently the judge wanted to unseal portion of Wade's claims and release it to the public . He asked both sides to work on what portions to release in June. I don't know , I feel this judge gave them enough time to have someone else join them.
I feel he is biased. The fact that he gave Wade almost a year to look around and get his case together speaks volumes to me. You know none of this would be happening if the defendants name wasn't Michael Joseph Jackson.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I knew about the pictures, but she has a pair of his underwear??? I'd bet she sleeps with them (or does she have them framed)?


Yup, I think they said she took a pair during the raid at Neverland o_O. She probably keeps them framed with a pair of Michael's socks.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

If this doesn't go to trial, sadly it won't be the end of it though, they will run to the media and sell as many interviews as they can to make a quick $, and with tabloid interviews they say whatever they want with no proof to back it up, and the interviewer will never challenge them. DD will be first in line.

Well even if it goes to court they will still do the same thing^^. They will lose the case and then do interviews with the tabloids and get paid for it. They will make their stories juicer to get more money. Muarry went to court and still went to the tabs with stories for money. So what is needed is a strong factual crush in court for Wade and Chuck so that when they tell their stories the facts will be out there to wave in their faces.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

How in the world did Michael get through this? From 1987-2009, he had to deal with so much.

I have anxiety myself, and I can't imagine being put under a microscope like that. He had to be an incredibly strong person. Michael was stronger than anybody realized.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

How in the world did Michael get through this? From 1987-2009, he had to deal with so much.

I have anxiety myself, and I can't imagine being put under a microscope like that. He had to be an incredibly strong person. Michael was stronger than anybody realized.





^ That picture speaks to me. He had to be the strongest person out there. If I was in his shoes, I would've lost all hope for myself and have nothing but hate for the world. Well, I do have hate for a lot of the world's issues, but it's because of Michael Joseph Jackson that I can find just a glimpse of hope left. :wub: makes me wanna hug him.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

This from the article that respect posted earlier. I think it's very good on the legal issues and how hard it is for the defendant who has been accused to prove innocence in a civil suit. The article is written by a lawyer--Phillip S. Simmons-- and he makes excellent point IMO--it was written in 94.

"The Legal Challenge

From a legal perspective, civil practitioners dealing with allegations of molest are confronted by a troubling hybrid of civil and criminal practice. Traditional tort law involves monetary compensation for wrongs allegedly perpetrated by a defendant against the plaintiff. Molest allegations substantially implicate the fundamental constitutional rights to life, liberty (including familial rights), and property. Fortunately or not, depending on the guilt or innocence of the accused, civil procedure provides much less protection for civil defendants than criminal procedure provides for those prosecuted by the State.

Therein lies a significant part of the problem surrounding civil cases based on molest allegations. As memory-recovery therapies proliferate, and as the media brings lurid exposure to both actual and false claims of abuse, the number of civil cases based on such claims has been increasing at an alarming rate. Unlike criminal indictments, civil plaintiffs are not restricted by any legal standard of probable cause prior to making the allegations. Furthermore, sympathy for the victims of abuse has pushed the standard for a "frivolous suit" virtually out of existence. Because of the different goals motivating civil plaintiffs and criminal prosecutors, and the different burden of proof required in civil versus criminal cases, there is a much greater risk of false allegations resulting in a miscarriage of justice in civil court than in a criminal action.

Those accused of molestation in a civil action find their fundamental constitutional rights in nearly as much jeopardy as if they had been criminally prosecuted. The civil action begins with an accusation of having committed one of the most reprehensible of crimes. In the course of the civil molest litigation, a criminal accusation must be developed, defended against, and ultimately adjudicated. The accused individual faces the potential deprivation of family, livelihood, reputation, and property. Nonetheless, civil courts do not impose an "innocent until proven guilty" standard on the proceedings, and do not require a finding of "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt."


Attorneys involved in the civil defense of those accused of molest must realize that the cards are heavily stacked in favor of the plaintiff. There is inevitably a presumption of "guilt," although technically guilt or innocence is not a determination to be made by a civil fact-finder. The defense attorney cannot rely on stringent compliance with rules of evidence that would be applied to a criminal matter. Legal practice, as well as judicial and legislative reform, must become sensitive to the quasi-criminal character of civil molest cases. Defendants in civil molest trials may not wind up in prison, but once an individual is found liable for having molested a child, "freedom" can contain all the loneliness and pain that is experienced by a criminal sentenced to solitary confinement. If the civil defendant actually committed the molest, then such a "judgment" is appropriate. But the entire concept of civil litigation is based on the principle that the limited jeopardy to the defendant (generally economic damages) requires a lower threshold of certainty on the part of the fact-finder.

One of the greatest tragic ironies in our judicial system is that the common paucity of evidence in support or defense of molest allegations often results in an unjust outcome in both actual and false molest cases. The lower standards of proof in civil cases allow civil fact-finders to determine that the lack of an adequate body of evidence in defense of a falsely accused individual is sufficient "proof" to hold the accused liable of having committed the molest. The higher standards of proof in criminal cases prohibits the fact-finder from judging guilt unless the accuser can provide corroborating evidence of the molest "beyond a reasonable doubt." As we will see, this often results in the inability of the system to successfully prosecute those actually guilty of having committed the crime.

In recent years, both the courts and the media have been full of cases and stories arising through recovered memories of molestation and abuse. Ever since the McMartin Preschool trial grabbed the attention of the mainstream media in 1987,1 high profile cases of child molestation and satanic ritual abuse have been the fodder of ratings for virtually every media organization in the country. Television news programs and talk shows feed their viewers a steady diet of stories concerning child abuse. In an attempt to separate the relevant issues from the sensationalism, nearly every major legal, psychological, and social science professional journal has made at least one attempt to clarify the numerous complex issues surrounding the problem. As the fact and consequences of abuse become common knowledge, our country is beginning to experience fallout from the lessons our citizens are learning from these media events."

http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6_3_6.htm
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Looks like repressed memories is the new black.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

What the hell is this I'm seeing about Diane Dimond having a pair of Michael's underwear that was used as evidence?! How did she get that and NOT get in trouble? Better yet, how come no one has called her out on that and made her out to be creepy? Michael's charity and love gets twisted into something nasty, but a female "journalist" who spits nasty venom about Michael yet owns a pair of his underwear gets passed over? Just... :banghead
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Add this date to your diaries...

On the 23rd of June Mr Tom Mesereau will be on King Jordan Radio to talk about the recent allegations made by Safechuck.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/jordan-king
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Yup, I think they said she took a pair during the raid at Neverland o_O. She probably keeps them framed with a pair of Michael's socks.


I have read that she also bought one of MJ's fedora hats in auction too. Apparently she wanted to just "touch it and put it on".

Who knows if there is any truth to this story, though it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

http://nypost.com/2005/02/13/jackso...ort-led-to-the-story-of-diane-dimonds-career/
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

DD doesn't have the underwear, she just went to NJ to go through the storage locker stuff from Vicardo, and found the undies and was holding them up for the cameras showing them off, THEN called Sneddon and said she found evidence, he actually subpoenaed them for the trial lol It was so pathetic it became a running joke.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I have read that she also bought one of MJ's fedora hats in auction too. Apparently she wanted to just "touch it and put it on".

Who knows if there is any truth to this story, though it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

http://nypost.com/2005/02/13/jackso...ort-led-to-the-story-of-diane-dimonds-career/


If she really did that then someone shoud bitchslap her crazy ass. :banghead: I swear if I ever meet her, she'll have her own funeral in no time ^_^ it's all for love though. -_- For Michael anyway.

DD doesn't have the underwear, she just went to NJ to go through the storage locker stuff from Vicardo, and found the undies and was holding them up for the cameras showing them off, THEN called Sneddon and said she found evidence, he actually subpoenaed them for the trial lol It was so pathetic it became a running joke.

Oh, okay then, cause I was seriously about to call a mental institution on that woman. She and Sneddon are two of the biggest jokes in history.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

To be honest, and I'm not just saying this now. I never really liked Jimmy from the Wembley DVD. When he was dancing with Michael I felt that he was really showing off

I'm I the only who thinks he was an arrogant showoff?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

To be honest, and I'm not just saying this now. I never really liked Jimmy from the Wembley DVD. When he was dancing with Michael I felt that he was really showing off

I'm I the only who thinks he was an arrogant showoff?

No lol I also found him annoying from the first time I've seen that footage. I kept waiting for someone to pull him off of the stage with a cane.
 
David Clohessy, Executive Director of SNAP, the Survivors' Network of those Abused by Priests, told MailOnline: ‘Given Michael Jackson’s popularity and prominence, now victim James Safechuck has come forward, there certainly could be a flood of other victims coming out.

‘We hope that this brave man’s courage will inspire many others to come forward. There could be dozens and dozens and we hope they start to speak up.

‘Some will blast Jackson's latest accuser for his timing. That's wrong. If kids are to be safe from predators, adults must welcome – indeed, be grateful for – abuse reports no matter when they happen.'

He added: ‘We hope every single person who saw, suspected or suffered child sex crimes by Jackson will find the courage to step forward.’

So David thinks it's "wrong" to be suspicious of Safechuck's timing, but it's not wrong to jump to the conclusion that MJ molested Safechuck just because he claims so? The biggest problem with victims groups is their inherent bias. I appreciate that they mean well and genuine victims of abuse need such groups, however, if you claim to represent victims you need to make sure the person you're supporting really is a victim before backing them. If not, it doesn't help the group's credibility and more than that, if a person is lying about being abused I believe it's the ultimate slap in the face to genuine victims.

It seems that this group is willing to believe anyone who says they're a victim without question or proper investigation. Who needs facts when you have emotional bias? Maybe instead of concentrating on when abuse allegations happen in this case he should have a look at WHY they're happening. It sounds to me like this man is not well educated in the facts of the previous allegations and this won't help his cause at all. What concerns me is that Wade and possibly Safechuck will attempt to use victims group's emotional biases to get them on side. The more sympathy they have the better, especially if it goes to trial. If victims groups back them they'll likely get more support from the general public. If you can taint a jury pool before it's even selected it'll increase your chances.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Add this date to your diaries...

On the 23rd of June Mr Tom Mesereau will be on King Jordan Radio to talk about the recent allegations made by Safechuck.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/jordan-king

Well I hope by then we have some documents available so he can talk about this in more depth. Right now we just have the ramblings of his attorney calling Michael a name and DD tabloidish writings.
 
Repressed memories is a dangerous theory to play with given its lack of validity:

Validity of 'Repressed Memories' Challenged in Court
Benjamin Radford | September 15, 2009 03:45pm ET

Defrocked priest Paul R. Shanley was convicted in 2005 of preying on children in his Boston parish for decades. Shanley's case came to light amid a clergy sex abuse scandal in 2002 when church records revealed that officials knew of pedophile priests among them but did little to stop it.

There were dozens of priests and hundreds of victims involved, but Shanley's case is unusual in that there is no corroborating evidence of his crimes. Often in cases of accusations of sexual abuse — even ones that occurred years earlier — there is some other supporting proof. But the only evidence against Shanley was the memory of a now-grown man who said he didn't recall the abuse until 2002 when he heard about a newspaper article on the clergy abuse scandal. That, he claimed, triggered a flood of memories of abuse that had occurred decades earlier at Shanley’s hand.

The problem? What the victim claims is unheard of in science. Shanley's lawyer argued that the former priest deserves a new trial because the jury relied on misleading "junk science" testimony about repressed memories, wrongly suggesting that such memories were considered valid by the psychological and scientific community. (Indeed, a judge concluded that repressed memories are "generally accepted by the relevant scientific community of mental health professionals.")

Shanley's lawyer is correct: There is no scientific consensus (and little research suggesting) that people can completely forget about traumatic events, only to recall them in detail years or decades later.
In fact, studies involving Holocaust survivors and war veterans have consistently found exactly the opposite: The difficulty for those people is not remembering their ordeals, but forgetting them. About 100 scientists, researchers, and psychologists signed an amicus brief in Shanley's case, informing the judge that the theory of repressed memories has little or no scientific basis.

During the 1980s and 1990s, there were many high-profile child abuse cases that rested on little other than claims of recovered memories. In nearly all the cases, social workers, police, and detectives asked leading questions of children in their efforts to uncover the "truth." At times interviewers and therapists would badger the children until they said what they wanted or expected to hear.
Repressed memories are often elicited through suggestion and hypnosis, in which the subject is encouraged to relate stories which may or may not have actually happened.

While the public often thinks of hypnosis as a magical mental shortcut to the truth, in the fact the opposite is more often the case. As I wrote in a previous column, repressed memories even played a key role in creating America's first UFO abduction case when Betty and Barney Hill described their "repressed memories" of being abducted and experimented upon by aliens. Suggestion by careless therapists has also been implicated in creating Multiple Personality Disorder.

This is just another reminder of how fragile human memory can be. Most of us go through our lives assuming that our memories are pretty good, and that we accurately remember events we experience. A recent study has shown that many subjects who are shown fake videos of things they never experienced can come to adopt the fictional accounts as real personal experiences. This finding has real-world implications, and especially for anyone who might be accused of a crime based on only recovered memories.

It is of course possible that Shanley's accuser's memories are real, or that while Shanley is innocent of this crime, he is guilty of others. And it is possible that Shanley is a completely innocent man who has been wrongly convicted based upon junk science. Whether Shanley wins a new trial remains to be seen, but justice wins when pseudoscience is kept out of the courtroom.

Benjamin Radford is managing editor of the Skeptical Inquirer science magazine. His books, films, and other projects can be found on his website. His Bad Science column appears regularly on LiveScience.
http://www.livescience.com/5718-validity-repressed-memories-challenged-court.html
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

It seems both men are claiming they knew, but Chuck it seems was only able to came forward after Wade filed and because he had children. Since he had children before Wade filed, why didn't he come forward years ago, after gazing at his children. The sight of his kids should have made him run to the nearest lawyer. How come the kids were only a motivating factor after Wade filed.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

They aren't claiming repressed memories, they are saying they always remembered what happened, but just didn't know it was abuse.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I want Jimmy, Wade and everyone else to die a rotten death. I just can't take this anymore. Time after time it is only MJ who has to endure and suffer. While these bitches are living the life, he is the one dead. **** them both. **** their families. **** their parents. **** their children. **** their entire family tree. Same goes to everyone else involved in these accusations starting right from the Chandler's to the Arvizo's, to the Sneddon's, Dimond's, etc. **** them all. I wish they'd be run over by a truck as soon as possible. I for them to get their intestines ripped out and bleed to death.

Elusive is right, ignorance is bliss. But I can't sit back and ignore this, it would feel as if I am letting Michael down.

Rest in Peace, sweet innocent angel, you were my hero in every sense. :cry:
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

It seems both men are claiming they knew, but Chuck it seems was only able to came forward after Wade filed and because he had children. Since he had children before Wade filed, why didn't he come forward years ago, after gazing at his children. The sight of his kids should have made him run to the nearest lawyer. How come the kids were only a motivating factor after Wade filed.

I wonder how old the eldest kid is? I wonder if they existed before 2009?

How convenient to use the same excuse that Wade did.

And obviously being able to see/hear Wade's complaint by just browsing online, was able to make an almost identical claim. I wonder if he'll claim MJ used books/magazines on him too? Isn't it funny how Michael never bothered using those on Jordan and how Wade only learned about them in 2005 and challenged the prosecutor if they even belonged to Michael. And if we're using Gavin - well, he claimed a ridiculous story involving the magazines which involved Michael taking the piss out of them and talking about how Frank was so gross and then putting them away.

If Wade's claims were made pre 2003, they would be completely different from the way they are now.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

What are the names of the boys who were around when Chuck was there, and were they on the tour as well? I guess if there is a trial, the sad thing is that all these former boys have to disrupt their lives because they may be called in as some type of witness. That is the sad thing about these situations. Some people make false allegations then pull innocent people in and disrupt their lives. The same thing happened in that Gavin case where McCauley and others had to go to court.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

They aren't claiming repressed memories, they are saying they always remembered what happened, but just didn't know it was abuse.

That is hard story to convince anyone, let alone a judge. They didn't know it was abuse, but they saw and knew MJ went through a trial accused of a criminal act / child abuse / for the exact same actions they are accusing him of.

How on earth do they not know that it isn't abuse!? You would think the trial alone would have had sent alarm bells in their heads ringing. Nobody is that frickin stupid! :mat:

And these aren't stupid people. Mesereau has stated that when he met Wade Robson, that he was a very bight, and articulate man. As for James Safechuck, is he not a computer programmer, web designer, or something..? Safechuck's job would take a certain level of brains to do.

:smilerolleyes:
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

They aren't claiming repressed memories, they are saying they always remembered what happened, but just didn't know it was abuse.

It's absolutely ridiculous their claim knowing they both have had sex in their adult lives. Do they think we're stupid? Give me an effing break! :rant:
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

DD doesn't have the underwear, she just went to NJ to go through the storage locker stuff from Vicardo, and found the undies and was holding them up for the cameras showing them off, THEN called Sneddon and said she found evidence, he actually subpoenaed them for the trial lol It was so pathetic it became a running joke.

Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing that up. That doesn't excuse those pictures she had on her wall in that one shot. That's like something an internet troll does. :crazy Again, how come the media doesn't call her out for her actions? Or is she protected because she's "one of them"?

They aren't claiming repressed memories, they are saying they always remembered what happened, but just didn't know it was abuse.

WR's initial claim was repressed memories, but then he changed it. That was one strike against him already. This new version doesn't make much sense either. How could they not know it was abuse? They no doubt heard all sorts of nasty things whether it was during questioning or from some random guy making a joke. They surely would've connected the dots much sooner if this had happened.

And I also don't buy the whole "oh they're just like other victims who don't come forward at first: they were scared, ashamed and felt guilty". How could they feel shame if they didn't think it was wrong in the first place?! They also would've had no reason to be scared, either, since a huge chunk of the world was against Michael during 1993 and from 2003-2005, so they would've had plenty of people backing them up. This whole thing just makes no goddamn sense. Not a bit.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

They aren't claiming repressed memories, they are saying they always remembered what happened, but just didn't know it was abuse.

Doesn't make sense does it? There would have been plenty of talk about MJ and what people thought he was doing, it doesn't seem plausible that they didn't realise it was abuse until they had kids.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^^MJLoves That is one of the main reasons people are calling these bogus claims. We are talking about a guy who went to the estate for a job and then claims he did not know there was an estate. We are talking about a guy who claimed he knew all the time what Michael did to him but did not understand even after the prosecution asked him about specific acts. Once Wade's and Chuck's stories are revealed in court and their witnesses like the maid, take the stand only fools or haters will still believe these stories.

Amaya Wade never said repressed memories. When TMZ broke the story they said it seems he is going with repressed memories. Then, everyone began to debate how foolish that was and we looked at all the literature that talked about how repressed memories was a bunch of you know what. Then, when Wade went on tv, he must have heard about the buzz about the repressed memories, so he said it is not repressed memories, I remembered all the time.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

What these F*ckers are doin is making it hard to watch certain MJ footage because their ugly lying mugs are all over that shit! Jam and Black or White have Wade dumb ass on them and Safechuck is on that MJ Pepsi commercial and some footage of the Bad tour! DAMN THEM TO HELL!
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Wade never said repressed memories. When TMZ broke the story they said it seems he is going with repressed memories. Then, everyone began to debate how foolish that was and we looked at all the literature that talked about how repressed memories was a bunch of you know what. Then, when Wade went on tv, he must have heard about the buzz about the repressed memories, so he said it is not repressed memories, I remembered all the time.

Ah, I knew I'd read about Wade and repressed memories, I got things a bit mixed up, sorry about that everyone. :doh:
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^^MJLoves That is one of the main reasons people are calling these bogus claims. We are talking about a guy who went to the estate for a job and then claims he did not know there was an estate. We are talking about a guy who claimed he knew all the time what Michael did to him but did not understand even after the prosecution asked him about specific acts. Once Wade's and Chuck's stories are revealed in court and their witnesses like the maid, take the stand only fools or haters will still believe these stories.

I know and fully agree with you. All I am trying to say is that these people aren't stupid people, just playing stupid because they want something. ....$$$
 
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