How Many Unreleased Songs are Complete Enough for a Release?

[dam2040]

I'd love to know what changed as seemingly after he passed the Estate were throwing songs out with ease. We got 5 odd on Bad 25, the 10 on Michael, yet now they don't want to use any? What's changed?

 

[SmoothCriminal1995]

I'd love to know what changed as seemingly after he passed the Estate were throwing songs out with ease. We got 5 odd on Bad 25, the 10 on Michael, yet now they don't want to use any? What's changed?

Yeah it's strange isn't.
I can only speculate but maybe they didn't realise how many useable demos they have left, that they own solely. Or I hope this is a ploy from the estate to stretch out the volume of Michael's unreleased works for decades to come. Or possibly even it's a negotiating tactic for future contracts as unreleased Michael is probably the most lucrative thing they own. Likelihood is some of the most useable or desired tracks Mike worked or completed with don't like the way the estate is being run and refuse to work with them. Like with the song Chicago 1945 and Steve Porcaro (I respect his stance) , the Will I Am tracks and the RedOne tracks but at the end of the day who knows?

Given everything we've learnt in the last 4 years or so I doubt the vault is running dry but it that way

 

[KOPV]

June 18th? So they were only Band Rehearsals, cause if i not mistake michael wasn't there in that day...

Michael was there on the 18th.. that's the day he was threatened and pretty much forced to go.. basically he wasnt showing up so they went to the house read him legal documents that expressed how he's obligated to go.. then went!! He spent several hrs at rehearsal on the 18th

 

[stephenvalek]

I'd love to know what changed as seemingly after he passed the Estate were throwing songs out with ease. We got 5 odd on Bad 25, the 10 on Michael, yet now they don't want to use any? What's changed?

They had to claw back a debt..now they don't

 

[AlwaysThere]

Or I hope this is a ploy from the estate to stretch out the volume of Michael's unreleased works for decades to come. Or possibly even it's a negotiating tactic for future contracts as unreleased Michael is probably the most lucrative thing they own.

I suspect it's this. Plenty of people, ranging from collaborators to fans/journalists lucky enough to hear the material, have confirmed that there's a good amount of music that's yet to be released. Hell, even us fans can do a bit of independent research and come up with a respectably-lengthy list of songs that we've yet to hear. Why the Estate insists nothing remains boggles my mind.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

I wouldn't say unreleased music is the biggest thing the estate have. I'd say his back catalogue will make them more money than whatever is left will ever make. They could easily not release anything and still make money.

 

[ShipOfFools]

I think the Estate is doing this all wrong.

All the die-hard fans want the songs as they were left. That's mostly why the two posthumous albums didn't do as well as they could have. The general public like Michael's songs how he recorded them, so to mess with them, the albums won't be as big.

If I were on the Estate team, I would gather up all unreleased songs or demos, remaster them to the best of my ability, and release them in Archive sets. Archive 1, 2, 3, etc. People will buy them, and the fans will love to hear the songs as Michael left them. And the money will go to the Jackson kids and the Estate. Win-win all around.

The time for updating Michael's 80's songs is over. He's been gone for years. Now it's time to respect and appreciate his memory.

 

[stephenvalek]

I think the Estate is doing this all wrong.

All the die-hard fans want the songs as they were left. That's mostly why the two posthumous albums didn't do as well as they could have. The general public like Michael's songs how he recorded them, so to mess with them, the albums won't be as big.

If I were on the Estate team, I would gather up all unreleased songs or demos, remaster them to the best of my ability, and release them in Archive sets. Archive 1, 2, 3, etc. People will buy them, and the fans will love to hear the songs as Michael left them. And the money will go to the Jackson kids and the Estate. Win-win all around.

The time for updating Michael's 80's songs is over. He's been gone for years. Now it's time to respect and appreciate his memory.

The Estate have done it RIGHT..

Catalogue sale much bigger income,than any album(past or future) of unreleased material,and got out of debt from red to green.
Priority was and is to MAKE MONEY..
Fans are sadly,further down the queue

 

[AlwaysThere]

ll the die-hard fans want the songs as they were left. That's mostly why the two posthumous albums didn't do as well as they could have. The general public like Michael's songs how he recorded them, so to mess with them, the albums won't be as big.

Both Michael and Xscape outperformed every posthumous compilation I can name off the top of my head. The latter exceeded expectations by miles and is often ranked among Sony's best commercial success stories from 2014. This is incredibly impressive given that posthumous albums aren't big sellers.

If the general public cared about preserving songs in their original and unedited format, "Love Never Felt So Good" wouldn't have reached the Top 10 on twenty-six different charts across twenty-one countries. Members of the dedicated fan base are the only ones who are truly desperate to receive Michael's music as found; everyone else is only interested in what the finished product sounds like and, depending on the quality, might not even know the songs were updated. I have several friends who are casual fans that had no idea "Love Never Felt So Good" was redone in 2014; they all thought it was recorded in the early 2000s with Timberlake.

There will never be a day when posthumous releases outshadow Michael's existing catalog. The public will always gravitate toward the music Michael finished in his lifetime. As SmoothGangsta said, the Estate could never touch the vault again and they'd still make money. Short term success is incredibly probable if done right, but long term success is unlikely.

 

[KOPV]

I dont think the estate makes it sound like there is not alot ot music for some type of ploy.. I think more so they say that knowing that they would like to release new material for years to come..

Let's just say (hypothetically) there are 11 semi or fully finished songs.. yeah that's "alot" when people hear a track or pieces of.. but that's one short album with a couple more tracks for later or 1 full album..

That's not alot at all.. once we got that we would hate the next couple decades without real new material..

I guess if it were up to me, depending on How many tracks I'd see as releasable.. If there really were only 11-12.. (which may even be a high number).. id spread out song releases out for the next 2 decades.. release projects with only a couple new tracks every few years..

Release as singles and add them to anniversary/collector versions of albums that the songs did not make it onto.

 

[stephenvalek]

I dont think the estate makes it sound like there is not alot ot music for some type of ploy.. I think more so they say that knowing that they would like to release new material for years to come..

Let's just say (hypothetically) there are 11 semi or fully finished songs.. yeah that's "alot" when people hear a track or pieces of.. but that's one short album with a couple more tracks for later or 1 full album..

That's not alot at all.. once we got that we would hate the next couple decades without real new material..

I guess if it were up to me, depending on How many tracks I'd see as releasable.. If there really were only 11-12.. (which may even be a high number).. id spread out song releases out for the next 2 decades.. release projects with only a couple new tracks every few years..

Release as singles and add them to anniversary/collector versions of albums that the songs did not make it onto.

I believe you've got it right there..
Like "One More Chance"on "Number Ones".

 

[StageGlitter]

I believe you've got it right there..
Like "One More Chance"on "Number Ones".

That could be it.

 

[KOPV]

yeah well that's always what I pictured they should do.. I mean there is really no point of chasing new album sale numbers anymore.. Michaels mega sale days (album wise) is behind us.. Michael had that in his mind anyway according to a few people that spoke about how he planned to release music..


I say release as singles, toss them on either compilation albums or anniversary.. THAN once at least 8 tracks are released, put all those tracks on an album and people can buy that way too as a full album if they'd like..

We know music wont always be pumped out so lets keep SOME type of music keep coming.. I'll make that sacrifice to have things keep coming cuz I'm telling you.. me being 33 today.. I would hate going through my 40's,50's without ANY new meterial.. ​

 

[ShipOfFools]

I dont think the estate makes it sound like there is not alot ot music for some type of ploy.. I think more so they say that knowing that they would like to release new material for years to come..

Let's just say (hypothetically) there are 11 semi or fully finished songs.. yeah that's "alot" when people hear a track or pieces of.. but that's one short album with a couple more tracks for later or 1 full album..

That's not alot at all.. once we got that we would hate the next couple decades without real new material..

I guess if it were up to me, depending on How many tracks I'd see as releasable.. If there really were only 11-12.. (which may even be a high number).. id spread out song releases out for the next 2 decades.. release projects with only a couple new tracks every few years..

Release as singles and add them to anniversary/collector versions of albums that the songs did not make it onto.

I think...this. Yes.

The Beatles did this, too. They made it seem like they squeezed the well dry with the three Anthology sets, and then a couple of years ago, they "found" a whole 2 disc set of unreleased material.

I doubt that sincerely. The Beatles were meticulous in labeling things. It's all about releasing something new, 50 years later. They've been doing it for years. Most likely, there are still unreleased songs for the upcoming "White Album" reissue.

Both Michael and Xscape outperformed every posthumous compilation I can name off the top of my head. The latter exceeded expectations by miles and is often ranked among Sony's best commercial success stories from 2014. This is incredibly impressive given that posthumous albums aren't big sellers.

If the general public cared about preserving songs in their original and unedited format, "Love Never Felt So Good" wouldn't have reached the Top 10 on twenty-six different charts across twenty-one countries. Members of the dedicated fan base are the only ones who are truly desperate to receive Michael's music as found; everyone else is only interested in what the finished product sounds like and, depending on the quality, might not even know the songs were updated. I have several friends who are casual fans that had no idea "Love Never Felt So Good" was redone in 2014; they all thought it was recorded in the early 2000s with Timberlake.

There will never be a day when posthumous releases outshadow Michael's existing catalog. The public will always gravitate toward the music Michael finished in his lifetime. As SmoothGangsta said, the Estate could never touch the vault again and they'd still make money. Short term success is incredibly probable if done right, but long term success is unlikely.

I guess it's my frustration. I would have loved for the original demos, of what appeared on Michael, to have been released as they were. I purposely got the Deluxe version of Xscape, because I don't like the "new" versions of the songs as much as the originals.

I think, if Michael's vision is to be adequate, they need to bring in all producers who worked on the original songs to update them. Kanye West may be a good producer, but he wasn't there in the 80's. If I want to hear a Michael Jackson song, I want it to sound like Michael Jackson...and some of the remixed songs don't (just his vocals.) Not saying they aren't good albums, but the Estate needs to try harder, if they are going to release them in that format.

And Love Never Felt So Good sounded like a Michael Jackson song. Some of the other updated songs on Xscape didn't.

 

[SmoothCriminal1995]

I think...this. Yes.

And Love Never Felt So Good sounded like a Michael Jackson song. Some of the other updated songs on Xscape didn't.

This!! Couldn't agree more, when I bought Xscape it almost felt like as a fan I had betrayed his artistry and trust for the sake of a hit. Although I didn't dislike all the remixes, LNFSG, Loving You and Xscape felt like re-imaginations Mike would approve of

 

[AlwaysThere]

I think, if Michael's vision is to be adequate, they need to bring in all producers who worked on the original songs to update them. Kanye West may be a good producer, but he wasn't there in the 80's. If I want to hear a Michael Jackson song, I want it to sound like Michael Jackson...and some of the remixed songs don't (just his vocals.) Not saying they aren't good albums, but the Estate needs to try harder, if they are going to release them in that format.

And Love Never Felt So Good sounded like a Michael Jackson song. Some of the other updated songs on Xscape didn't.

Plenty of Michael's old producers and collaborators have been involved with the first two albums, and the material didn't turn out any better because of it: Akon's new cut of "Hold My Hand" is often criticized for lacking the power (and lessening Michael's presence) in comparison to the demo; Teddy Riley is often torn to shreds for what he did on "Hollywood Tonight," particularly the vocal processing and spoken word bridge; Neff-U gets solid reviews for "The Way You Love Me," though general consensus seems to be that it isn't as sharp as the demo; Lenny Kravitz's "Another Day" is nothing short of disappointing for most; John McClain's "Behind the Mask" gets a tepid response; Rodney Jerkins' "Xscape," while attracting above-average reviews, is usually considered to be a step down from the original song; and Cory Rooney gets a mixed reception for his cut mix of "She Was Lovin' Me". Keep in mind that Akon, Neff-U, Kravitz, Jerkins, and Rooney were all involved first hand with their respective songs at one point or another during Michael's lifetime.

Song selection has also been largely unaffected: John Branca and Frank Dileo have known Michael since 1979 and 1983 respectively, and they were the lead cheerleaders for the Cascio tracks; Matt Forger and Al Quaglieri led the force behind Disc 2 of Bad 25, often called out for short changing the fan base with only six unheard songs; and L.A. Reid chose only eight songs for Xscape, six of which had been available online for years (and four of which, conveniently, were up for consideration for Michael four years earlier).

At the end of the day, it's not about WHO the producer is, it's about WHAT they're capable of doing to/with a song. Having Michael's former collaborators steer the ship is clearly the honorable thing to do, and I would love to see the A-Team/B-Team get back together for a project, but history has demonstrated that it is no guarantee as to quality.

"Love Never Felt So Good" didn't peak as high as it did because it sounded like a Michael Jackson song though; it peaked as high as it did because (a) it was a good reproduction and (b) Justin Timberlake's involvement bolstered interest, which is why the duet version comprised of around 80% of sales. The GP only cares about the end product, not the ins and outs of the production process.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Plenty of Michael's old producers and collaborators have been involved with the first two albums, and the material didn't turn out any better because of it: Akon's new cut of "Hold My Hand" is often criticized for lacking the power (and lessening Michael's presence) in comparison to the demo; Teddy Riley is often torn to shreds for what he did on "Hollywood Tonight," particularly the vocal processing and spoken word bridge; Neff-U gets solid reviews for "The Way You Love Me," though general consensus seems to be that it isn't as sharp as the demo; Lenny Kravitz's "Another Day" is nothing short of disappointing for most; John McClain's "Behind the Mask" gets a tepid response; Rodney Jerkins' "Xscape," while attracting above-average reviews, is usually considered to be a step down from the original song; and Cory Rooney gets a mixed reception for his cut mix of "She Was Lovin' Me". Keep in mind that Akon, Neff-U, Kravitz, Jerkins, and Rooney were all involved first hand with their respective songs at one point or another during Michael's lifetime.

Song selection has also been largely unaffected: John Branca and Frank Dileo have known Michael since 1979 and 1983 respectively, and they were the lead cheerleaders for the Cascio tracks; Matt Forger and Al Quaglieri led the force behind Disc 2 of Bad 25, often called out for short changing the fan base with only six unheard songs; and L.A. Reid chose only eight songs for Xscape, six of which had been available online for years (and four of which, conveniently, were up for consideration for Michael four years earlier).

At the end of the day, it's not about WHO the producer is, it's about WHAT they're capable of doing to/with a song. Having Michael's former collaborators steer the ship is clearly the honorable thing to do, and I would love to see the A-Team/B-Team get back together for a project, but history has demonstrated that it is no guarantee as to quality.

"Love Never Felt So Good" didn't peak as high as it did because it sounded like a Michael Jackson song though; it peaked as high as it did because (a) it was a good reproduction and (b) Justin Timberlake's involvement bolstered interest, which is why the duet version comprised of around 80% of sales. The GP only cares about the end product, not the ins and outs of the production process.

Whilst I generally agree with what you say I wouldn't say Behind the Mask or Hold My Hand got bad responses at all. Hold My Hand also features more MJ vocals than the demo so I don't really understand why you're saying it lessened his presence. I personally don't really care what the general public think I'm more thinking about how to respectfully present MJ's art. In an ideal world the original people would work on the tracks, using MJ's notes and any ideas he had to complete the songs in a respectful manner, along with the original unfinished tracks well mastered and presented. I know we won't get that at all though and we'll get more remixes that will be dated in a few years. I have also never seen anyone complain about the amount of songs on Bad 25, legitimately a complaint I have never seen.

 

[AlwaysThere]

Whilst I generally agree with what you say I wouldn't say Behind the Mask or Hold My Hand got bad responses at all. Hold My Hand also features more MJ vocals than the demo so I don't really understand why you're saying it lessened his presence. I personally don't really care what the general public think I'm more thinking about how to respectfully present MJ's art. In an ideal world the original people would work on the tracks, using MJ's notes and any ideas he had to complete the songs in a respectful manner, along with the original unfinished tracks well mastered and presented. I know we won't get that at all though and we'll get more remixes that will be dated in a few years. I have also never seen anyone complain about the amount of songs on Bad 25, legitimately a complaint I have never seen.

Across this and a few other forums/groups, I've seen quite a bit of flack leveled at "Hold My Hand" for being very Akon-centric (which I've always argued was sort of the point, given the fact that it was meant for Akon's album) and for making Michael's harmony background vocals almost inaudible (a fair complaint), "Behind the Mask" for both the crowd noise (which has never bothered me) and for using a saxophone (which some have said makes it sound 'dated,' which is an odd argument for me), and Bad 25 for only having six new songs and ignoring most of the original album demos (which I also don't quite understand). They aren't universal opinions or even popular ones, but I've definitely seen them used enough to judge it as 'mixed responses.' If I come across any of those comments I'll link to them!

Presenting Michael's work respectfully should always be the goal, I completely agree there. As I said, seeing the album personnel consist of Brad Buxer, Michael Prince, John Barnes, and others would be ideal. My argument is that bringing back the team won't have any substantial impact on quality, as has been demonstrated already.

Honestly the most respectful way to handle his vault would be to not release anything at all. But given the circumstances (and our own selfish hunger for music), the next best option would be to release it as is, without alteration or overdubs. Even with Michael's notes and/or instruction, it's still impossible to gauge precisely what he would have wanted on a song. He might have wanted a smooth bass line on "Hollywood Tonight," for example, but he might not have liked the one Teddy Riley crafted.

 

[Mikky Dee]

All the die-hard fans want the songs as they were left.

I'm a die hard fan and I have to say that most of the time, whilst I do enjoy hearing the songs "the way they were left" (once or twice), I can usually understand perfectly why they were never finished or didn't make it onto albums. I appreciate the effort of the Estate and its various producers to at least try to finish some songs and bring them out, for thirsty and grieving fans to have, if they want them. I see posthumous song releases as appendices to Michael's legacy and his body of work....not a part of it, as they receive different treatment to what Michael may have done with them.

I don't think the estate makes it sound like there is not a lot of music for some type of ploy.. I think more so they say that, knowing that they would like to release new material for years to come..

Let's just say (hypothetically) there are 11 semi or fully finished songs.. yeah that's "alot" when people hear a track or pieces of.. but that's one short album with a couple more tracks for later or 1 full album..

That's not alot at all.. once we got that we would hate the next couple decades without real new material..

I guess if it were up to me, depending on How many tracks I'd see as releasable.. If there really were only 11-12.. (which may even be a high number).. id spread out song releases out for the next 2 decades.. release projects with only a couple new tracks every few years..

Release as singles and add them to anniversary/collector versions of albums that the songs did not make it onto.

I agree with this, completely. Many of the major artists today seem to just release an occasional single, here and there; putting out a regular stream of new music, rather than waiting four/five years to bring out a full album. I think a couple of new songs each one or two years, packaged with other projects, is a great way to go. If the Estate intends on using any of the original people, like John Barnes, Matt Forger, Michael Prince, Bill Bottrell, etc., they'd better be quick about it, too, because most of them seem to be getting on in years and are a little "over it", these days.

 

[ShipOfFools]

I just don't like what the Estate has done with the majority of the unfinished music.

At the end of the day, though, I don't care what the Estate does at this point. Michael Jackson isn't here, and I'm not sure he would even like what's been released. I still love what was released when Michael was alive...the Estate could not release any more unreleased songs, and I would be fine with that.

Michael and Xscape were okay albums. But I think I enjoyed them more when they first came out, as opposed to now; where all the albums that Michael made when he was alive, I have never grown tired of.

 

[Erandi]

Sorry, if this has been asked before: does anybody know anything about Michael's version of Joy (the song that was then given to Blackstreet)? What about a solo version of Satisfy You?

 

[AlwaysThere]

Sorry, if this has been asked before: does anybody know anything about Michael's version of Joy (the song that was then given to Blackstreet)? What about a solo version of Satisfy You?

Teddy Riley mentioned that he had a cassette with a solo version of "Joy" that he intended on giving over to the Estate. Jean-Marie Horvat (his sound engineer) said it was incredible. No updates beyond that though.

There's no solo version of "To Satisfy You" -- Michael only recorded the chorus for Bryan's album.

 

[IMWhizzle]

Guys, I know a lot of you don’t like Tommy Motorola, but in this case the following video is relevant:

https://youtu.be/za6z5eCsTno

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Guys, I know a lot of you don’t like Tommy Motorola, but in this case the following video is relevant:

https://youtu.be/za6z5eCsTno

He doesn't really say much here tbh.

 

[SmoothCriminal1995]

I would love the Estate to release a demo on Mike's 60th birthday.
Something like a demo of a released song, like the work tape we got with Beat It on This Is It disc 2.
Imagine having something similar with Liberian Girl, Smooth Criminal, Who Is It or Stranger In Moscow. That would be a dream come true

 

[Hess]

I would love the Estate to release a demo on Mike's 60th birthday.
Something like a demo of a released song, like the work tape we got with Beat It on This Is It disc 2.
Imagine having something similar with Liberian Girl, Smooth Criminal, Who Is It or Stranger In Moscow. That would be a dream come true

It really would - and it would be a free thing to do - cause a work demo - with talking and MJ instructing and singing would (propably) never be released anyway, so it would be very smart for The Estate to release some insight in the magic in the making on MJ's website for the fans to enjoy.

 

[AlwaysThere]

A collection of Michael's work tapes and demos that would be a quick, easy, and relatively inexpensive investment that core fans would love. If they're feeling generous they could even toss on some of the half-finished/incomplete material that they otherwise have no use for (e.g., "Shut Up and Dance," "Days in Gloucestershire," "Breathe," "Make or Break").

It doesn't even need to be mass distributed -- they could take the route of The Ultimate Fan Extras Collection and pawn it off to digital music retailers (Amazon, iTunes, Spotify, Pandora).

 

[KOPV]

The above idea is good.. I'll say though they could be holding out to put unfinished material in future projects that are not album related.. let's say mix a section into a mix of some sort at a show and it will sound "complete" cuz only a portion would play..

 

[Mogul]

They could do something just like Nirvana's Sliver. Check it out you'll know what i mean.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[IMWhizzle]

He doesn't really say much here tbh.

He said that 25+ full songs were recorded per album.