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I Am A Loser leaks [ Page 6] New info Page 12

AlwaysThere said:
Exactly. For BAD 25 the estate considered about twenty to twenty-five songs alone. (Not quite sure where the remaining forty or so went.) I'm not concerned at all.



If you mean unleaked songs, my research has brought forward this:
* Off the Wall (1976-1980) has 16.
* Thriller (1981-1984) has 15.
* Bad (1985-1988) has 11.
* Dangerous (1989-1993) has 16.
* HIStory (1994-1997) has 2. (Possibly one, if Elizabeth I Love You wasn't recorded in full.)
* Invincible (1998-2003) has 28.
* This Is It (2004-2009) has 10.
* Additionally, there are 62 songs with no confirmed date of recording.

Of course, these are just titles I've found and researched. Some may exist in a releasable state, some may not. And let's not forget that there are dozens of songs that no one knows about yet.
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This, In Vogel's book he says 40 - 50 tracks were worked on for HIStory, and 70 songs were worked on for Dangerous before Teddy even joined the project. So i think there are a lot of things we don't know about.
 
of course this is just a matter of opinion but lets say "Music Taking Over" which was on a 1977 album (if never released) could easily be produced with modern sounds and released as a hit today.. This is one I'd even say would be safe with Draft Punk to modernise it just a bit.. And it would get radio play like a hit of today..

I mean to be honest, I would like tracks 1998-2009 only on the next album, but I doubt that will happen. I would like only songs that could have been thought to be on a release by MJ.. if recorded 1998 and on there is a higher chance of Michael planning to releas on 2009-2013 projects..

BUT if they are going to use the "Not enough completed" work excuse, than going 1977 wouldn't be a bad idea to me.. that opens at least a few more tracks!
 
I listen to this multiple times a day now! Haha I love it and it's just.. wow :wub:
 
jtabbott8 said:
This, In Vogel's book he says 40 - 50 tracks were worked on for HIStory, and 70 songs were worked on for Dangerous before Teddy even joined the project. So i think there are a lot of things we don't know about.
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Vogel isn't always right.

Re. the HIStory sessions: it was actually Rob Hoffman that spoke of the forty to fifty tracks. He followed that up with saying that he could only think of three song titles that could be released at a moment's notice, one of which was Much Too Soon. I wouldn't say the HIStory sessions are very profitable in terms of music.

Re. the Dangerous sessions: that one's probably true. Michael worked with Bryan Loren, L.A. Reid, Babyface, Bill Bottrell, Brad Buxer... a plethora of producers. Not sure about 70 songs between summer 1989 and summer 1990 though.
 
AlwaysThere said:
Vogel isn't always right.

Re. the HIStory sessions: it was actually Rob Hoffman that spoke of the forty to fifty tracks. He followed that up with saying that he could only think of three song titles that could be released at a moment's notice, one of which was Much Too Soon. I wouldn't say the HIStory sessions are very profitable in terms of music.
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I'm sure MJ was working on forty to fifty tracks for HIStory, but only about 20 came to the studio where Rob Hoffman and the team was. Michael always worked on some demos at his house, hotel rooms, Neverland, even on Dangerous Tour with Brad Buxer.

It's the same thing with Bad. No one knew about Abortion Papers and I'm So Blue demos because MJ was working on those songs in his house. Bruce Swedein knew nothing about those songs because those songs never came to the studio.

And when someone is saying what is releasable and what is not.. In my opinion everything is releasable and should be released. Maybe on a collectors label. Fans would love those demos, ideas and even instrumentals.
 
Zakk said:
Original 1987 Version.

2012 Orchestral Full Version Including Intro and Unseen Rushes, Plus new transfer from original tapes. Voila.
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and that is the reason why i dont like such albums like "michael". its not only for michael jackson. also on the other artists. ruined versions of iconic songs from death icons like michael jackson and freddie mercury, edited them, and releasing them. only for cash in. but noone cares about the iconic that the legends created. i have the same opinion about covering songs and sampled songs. let the song like it is. the original song spreads the message how the artist wanted it, and not these denigrated versions.
on michael jackson demos. i dont like what they are doing with these masterpieces. at least they should have the decency, when releasing such an denigrated version, they should also release the original untouched track. but i'm sure they dont want to let the people see how much they destroyed the magic work of the KING.
 
Suck it up. we are getting remixed tracks.

Stop whining about not hearing Michaels Vision. Hes dead. His vision essentially died with him.

Every demo he released in his life time was updated to an extent. Streetwalker, and For All Time are updated. Michael wouldn't want his raw works released to the public. Touching them up a bit wont hurt.

besides, one day we will hear the demos. Just not now.
 
Billyjeanplxiv said:
Suck it up. we are getting remixed tracks.

Stop whining about not hearing Michaels Vision. Hes dead. His vision essentially died with him.

Every demo he released in his life time was updated to an extent. Streetwalker, and For All Time are updated. Michael wouldn't want his raw works released to the public. Touching them up a bit wont hurt.

besides, one day we will hear the demos. Just not now.
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His "vision" still lives on through his children and whether you like it or not, the fans. You act as if Michael didn't do interviews and depositions explaining to everyone his work process. If he settled for nothing less than perfect, neither should the estate. And them settling for nothing less than perfect is NOT going out and finding the most current Hip Hop producer and throwing him on a Michael Jackson song for name value.

I wouldn't mind up dates to songs if they brought in people like R. Kelly, Babyface, etc. Not only people who knew him, but producers who share a similar work ethic as he did.
 
Stop "whining" about people sharing their opinions.

My point with this particular song is how can you can you dress it up and release it as a "finished" song when the lyrics and vocals are so far from being "complete". That's not fair to Michael. At least if you release the demo as it is people understand that it's only a demo and not all that Michael was capable of in his later years. At least then they can excuse why the vocals and lyrics may be not completely up to scratch.
 
I have to agree with Billy on this one.

Other than on The Ultimate Collection, name one instance where Michael released a demo that wasn't finished or touched up to SOME extent.

If the song is extremely incomplete (like Free), release it as it is.

If it's finished (like Escape, DYKWYCA, etc.), a few little touch ups are fine.
 
Michael's vision is closer in the demos than if some producer comes and remixes it (unless this producer originally worked on the songs and knew what Michael wanted).
 
Billyjeanplxiv said:
Suck it up. we are getting remixed tracks.

Stop whining about not hearing Michaels Vision. Hes dead. His vision essentially died with him.

Every demo he released in his life time was updated to an extent. Streetwalker, and For All Time are updated. Michael wouldn't want his raw works released to the public. Touching them up a bit wont hurt.

besides, one day we will hear the demos. Just not now.
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Streetwalker and For All Time were not demos! They were songs considered for a release on Bad/Dangerous albums. Those were his final vocals. Only music was updated on For All Time. Streetwalker is the same mix Bottrell did in 1988.

MJ did release his demos ("his raw works") - Billie Jean Demo which is very raw, Don't Stop Til You Get Enough, Working Day And Night.
 
AlwaysThere said:
I have to agree with Billy on this one.

Other than on The Ultimate Collection, name one instance where Michael released a demo that wasn't finished or touched up to SOME extent.
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I've heard Sony released those Demos, Early Versions and unfinished songs on The Ultimate Collection against Michael's wishes. Don't know if that's truth though. I think it is because he continued working on Scared Of The Moon, Cheater, Beautiful Girl, The Way You Love Me afterwards.
 
Billyjeanplxiv said:
Suck it up. we are getting remixed tracks.

*Stop whining about not hearing Michaels Vision. Hes dead. His vision essentially died with him.*

Every demo he released in his life time was updated to an extent. Streetwalker, and For All Time are updated. Michael wouldn't want his raw works released to the public. Touching them up a bit wont hurt.

besides, one day we will hear the demos. Just not now.
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I'm just wondering, do you realize that his vision lives on in his children and fans?
 
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maviefly said:
:bugeyed

can't believe someone on this board is saying such a thing....
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I think he means that no one else can finish the songs exactly like Michael would have wanted them to be but Michael himself. The unfinished songs that get released in the future(remixed by other people) are not exactly like Michael's vision.
 
I am a Michael Jackson fan. Michael's MESSAGE lives on through his children and fans. But his musical vision is dead.
Nobody can replicate it like he can because he is dead. The best people can do is guess what he would want. The Estate isn't prefect. They shouldn't try to be something they clearly are not, but now it looks like they are putting forth effort to try and please Michaels sometimes ungrateful fan base.

I care about Michael. I care about the future releases of Michaels left over material. However, Im using logic. common sense. Michael took years to finish songs. So saying there are about 10-20 unleaked complete songs left for release is reasonable.
 
Billyjeanplxiv is undoubtedly a true fan, and in some ways I agree with him.

Michael's vision, in some ways, died with him. By that I mean we will NEVER get any product that gracefully fulfills his vision, no matter who ends up taking over control of the estate in a few years. For example, his final album with will.i.am, Akon, etc. Seeing as how Michael isn't here to sign off on it, we will never get the album he would have wanted.

Granted, we can get extremely close, but never dead on. Same with any other project that comes out (Dangerous 25, any reissue of This Is It, etc.).

Michael's legacy, however, will NEVER die. His family, his friends, his fans and the new generation who are just discovering Michael now will keep his music alive for decades to come, long after all of us die.

I've already addressed my concern over the vaults (an article is forthcoming), but just to summarize:

The skepticism is understood. But the way Michael worked, his demos were in fine condition. Look at Beautiful Girl, Fall Again, Cheater, We Are the World, I'm So Blue, Dangerous. All billed as demo recordings yet almost as complete as finalized tracks would be. For many songs, there is undeniable evidence that they exist in a releasable state (such as statements from Michael and/or his associates); for others, there isn't. But I have no doubts that there are over twenty tracks remaining. Definitely not two or three hundred but somewhere in the 80-120 vicinity. This of course isn't tracks that are finished, or even close to finished; it's tracks that have the potential to be finished if a producer were to come in and (tastefully and with honor) fill in the holes. There are dozens of other demos that could be saved for a duets album, and even more that could be put out on some sort of box set.
 
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Thank you. I should clarify more in my post. But im a person of few words generally when compared to other peoples posts.
 
I don't expect these new songs to be 150% like Michael's vision. All i ask is that whoever works on them is to be respectful
 
Billyjeanplxiv said:
I am a Michael Jackson fan. Michael's MESSAGE lives on through his children and fans. But his musical vision is dead.
Nobody can replicate it like he can because he is dead. The best people can do is guess what he would want. The Estate isn't prefect. They shouldn't try to be something they clearly are not, but now it looks like they are putting forth effort to try and please Michaels sometimes ungrateful fan base.

I care about Michael. I care about the future releases of Michaels left over material. However, Im using logic. common sense. Michael took years to finish songs. So saying there are about 10-20 unleaked complete songs left for release is reasonable.
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I understand what you mean and i do agree with you that only Michael would have know how he wanted it.
But try to see it like this, isin't Michael's demos closer to his Vision than somebody "guessing" what he would have wanted?

At the end of the day i think we all just have to come to terms that some songs, (If not all) will be touched up in some capacity.
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
I understand what you mean and i do agree with you that only Michael would have know how he wanted it.
But try to see it like this, isin't Michael's demos closer to his Vision than somebody "guessing" what he would have wanted?

At the end of the day i think we all just have to come to terms that some songs, (If not all) will be touched up in some capacity.
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Well, seeing how Michael was reluctant to release untouched demos in his lifetime,

(Streetwalker was in fact touched, and was not raw from the 80s. btw).
Billie Jean was enhanced, it had to be. Its original sound quality was poor.
For All Time was a demo. Vocals were double tracked and instrumentation was updated.

Seeing how Michael also kept reworking old demos toward the end of his life, shows us he even tinkered with songs.
Of course he didn't expect to die, even though evidence shows he was paranoid about being killed.

I am a Loser needs, live drums and orchestration. The Freddie Mercury Barcelona album 2012 is beautiful.
It also needs, layered vocals for harmony (if harmony is desired)
A for all time bridge vocal effect would be nice too. Michael did that in 2007-08. :) I like that effect.

REASONS FOR THIS:
An obvious use of copy and pastes needs too be fixed.
The MIDI/Synth instrumentation sounds rough. Demo rough. Not a final track as I hope the estate would like to illusion.
The Vocals are a guide take, and can improve. At some parts its obvious hes not as close to the microphone. If that could be fixed, id like that to be fixed too.
The drums ala Stranger In Moscow, and Cry fail to impress most fans. The song could achieve better sound dynamics if it was rerecorded instrumentally with live instruments anyways. Evidence to support this would be Threatened 2001 vs Threatened This is It.

Seeing as we have the demo already, these changes should be welcomed.
 
r3mJf.gif
:bored2: :fear:
 
As long as there is no autotune or something like that. I think for example I would be okay if they took the music beat and updated it or made it greater sound. The sound of things like that. But with Michael's voice I want to hear him. To me hearing Michael is the song if that makes sense. I think its so hard to know what Michael would want or not want because he can't tell them. You just hope they do the best they can and respect is important to me too.
 
Billyjeanplxiv said:
Well, seeing how Michael was reluctant to release untouched demos in his lifetime,

(Streetwalker was in fact touched, and was not raw from the 80s. btw).
Billie Jean was enhanced, it had to be. Its original sound quality was poor.
For All Time was a demo. Vocals were double tracked and instrumentation was updated.

Seeing how Michael also kept reworking old demos toward the end of his life, shows us he even tinkered with songs.
Of course he didn't expect to die, even though evidence shows he was paranoid about being killed.

I am a Loser needs, live drums and orchestration. The Freddie Mercury Barcelona album 2012 is beautiful.
It also needs, layered vocals for harmony (if harmony is desired)
A for all time bridge vocal effect would be nice too. Michael did that in 2007-08. :) I like that effect.

REASONS FOR THIS:
An obvious use of copy and pastes needs too be fixed.
The MIDI/Synth instrumentation sounds rough. Demo rough. Not a final track as I hope the estate would like to illusion.
The Vocals are a guide take, and can improve. At some parts its obvious hes not as close to the microphone. If that could be fixed, id like that to be fixed too.
The drums ala Stranger In Moscow, and Cry fail to impress most fans. The song could achieve better sound dynamics if it was rerecorded instrumentally with live instruments anyways. Evidence to support this would be Threatened 2001 vs Threatened This is It.

Seeing as we have the demo already, these changes should be welcomed.
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I think some fans have a huge difference of opinion in how "finished" I Am A Loser is. While clearly a demo, I think its pretty much a fully realized song. It doesn't sound as rough as say, something like In The Back.

An obvious use of copy and pastes needs too be fixed.

Are you talking about "I Am A Loser" being repeated over and over? That's likely deliberate. Even in finished songs by living artists its not uncommon to loop a chorus or vocal harmony. "Billie Jean is not my lover" over and over is a prime example. Unless you're talking about something else.

The Vocals are a guide take, and can improve. At some parts its obvious hes not as close to the microphone. If that could be fixed, id like that to be fixed too.

Sure, if they can enhance the vocals in the parts like that, that would help.

The drums ala Stranger In Moscow, and Cry fail to impress most fans.

This is based on what? MJ had a unique sound to his drums. He used elements that almost sounded like vocal percussion (and in some cases actually DID use his voice/beatboxing for percussion). MJ enjoyed that sound.. if they want to re-record the drums using the exact same sounds that were on the demo to get a clearer sound, fine. But in my opinion, replacing the synth drums for live drums is just as silly as replacing Stevie Wonder's harmonica for a saxophone solo. If MJ wanted to use live drums, he could have easily used a live drum synth sound. This type of drum sound is found on songs like Stranger In Moscow, Cry (as you mentioned) as well as What More Can I Give, Beautiful Girl and many others I'm sure. It's just a trademark of his.

The song could achieve better sound dynamics if it was rerecorded instrumentally with live instruments anyways. Evidence to support this would be Threatened 2001 vs Threatened This is It.

With all due respect, "dynamics" doesn't mean much here. If you just want the song to sound clearer, it may sound perfectly clear already with the recordings they have, or they could easily re-record the instrumental in the same manner they were originally recorded to achieve a clearer sound and to obtain multi-tracks if they don't have any for the demo. But simply replacing the synths with live instruments doesn't achieve anything other than changing the song for the sake of it. Which I guess if that's what they choose to do, then whatever. They're the ones who decide. And if some fans want this - as you do - then that's fine as well. There's nothing wrong with that.

Threatened was really cool to hear with live instruments, but it was merely a live performance of a recorded song. That happens a lot - live drums and other instruments replace the synths (and sometimes synths replace live instruments - for instance, they had no horn section on the Bad tour, so Another Part of Me had synths in their place).
​
 
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