Invincible appreciation thread

[Allusio]

Invincible album will always be a beautiful, passionate work for me.

We all have different tastes and reasons to like the album or not but IMHO the album seems “not good enough” for some fans because we didn’t have enough of it !!!
We do not know full "story", Michael’s vision of it … Unfortunately, we lost it.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

I think the biggest complaint about this album when it's discussed is that it's "too long" which I don't really agree with (considering it runs about the same time as Dangerous and HIStory).

It is too long. Just as Dangerous and HIStory are. But Dangerous and HIStory have less "filler" songs and better song selection. There are some nice songs on both Dangerous & HIStory I would remove to make the album shorter. 12 songs is perfection in my opinion.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

One More Chance was recorded in 2003 specifically for Number Ones or the possibility of a new studio album.

Wrong! Recorded in 2000-2001 for Invincible album. Same recording sessions with R. Kelly when they recorded Cry and possibly 1 more track.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

Calm down dear, it's only a discussion.

Why do you feel the need to make the obvious point that this is 'only' an opinion? Of course it's an opinion - 99% of posts on discussion boards are.

If I post 'Who Is It' in an amazing track & one of MJ's best, would you post 'Opinion & nothing more'? So why post it because I don't particularly like something.

None of what I wrote is irrelevant because as you helpfully say, it is an opinion.

The point on too many producers/writers is not irrelevant anyway as I think most would agree, songs that Michael created on his own or with one collaborator are far superior to works that weren't.

See, Billie Jean, Don't Stop, Beat It, Earth Song, Who Is It, Give In To Me, WBSS, Smooth Criminal, Dirty Diana, TYWMMF etc.....etc.....etc...

That's why so many are so passionate about Bad.

My point about questioning the motive may not be accurate in some cases, but it stands as an opinion. It's the same when someone says their favourite MJ track is 'Hot Street' or 'On The Line'. Sometimes this will be true, but other times it will be said to make them look like they know his work more in a bit to alleviate themselves above the more common fan.

If anyone truly believes that Invincible is a greater piece of MUSICAL work that Thriller, Bad or Dangerous then great, I'm honestly pleased that this largely dismissed album has that level of appreciation. I just find it hard to believe.

And like I always say there are some really good tracks on there, just not a patch on the virtually perfect musical legacy the man had before.

Finally, please let us all discuss without resorting to argument & aversion. This is music, meant to bring us together even if we don't necessarily hold the same opinion on a certain piece of work.

Just saying that "people's motives" can actually be quality. Because the album is great, production is marvellous, his vocals are full of passion and perfect!

One other thing. There may be people who grow up on it. For example I started to listen MJ in 1995, my first album was HIStory and that's why HIStory has a special place in my heart. The same way, some fans may have grown up on Invincible and Invincible may have been their first MJ album and though their favourite. No hidden motives.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

IMO there is an argument to be made that Invincible IS his best album. But then that same argument can be made for other albums. Some people say it is this album another will say that album. My point is that Invincible can also be said with justice that it ius his best. It's just that Invincible is not seen that way--it was not appreciated by the critics when it was released and it did not get promoted properly as we know so it got BURIED. No one has really given it a close look, as far as critics are concerned (except maybe Vogel, but more needs to be done). As has been said, there are killer tracks on it, and even MJ said he thought it had more to offer than Thriller (quoted in Vogel's book in the chapter on Invincible).

btw, there's a fantastic video documentary re Threatened that goes into the background of Rod Sterling's Twilight Zone and how it plays into Threatened (and Ghosts)--the whole concept of fearing the unknown. I will post it.

http://vimeo.com/106473572

Exactly, it always feels like whenever someone wants to praise Invincible there' s always some kind of apologizing tone to it and only under some restriction, when it's not like that with any other MJ album. This album is VERY underrated even among fans. It has weaker songs? I can name weaker songs in OTW and Thriller but I don't point it out every time someone says Thriller is just SO great.

I know this Threatened doc btw and I find some parts very enlightening Great post jamba!

 

[analogue]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

Destiny and Triumph are more underrated among fans than Invincible

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

Invincible is not underrated among fans. I actually think it's overrated among fans

It's the complete opposite of what you said. It's drastically underrated among fans and among general public.

 

[analogue]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

It's the complete opposite of what you said. It's drastically underrated among fans and among general public.

If it's so underrated among fans then why do fans talk about it so much? The REAL underrated part of Michael's career is his work with The Jackson's. Especially the Destiny and Triumph albums. Two fantastic albums that the fanbase hardy ever talks about

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

If it's so underrated among fans then why do fans talk about it so much? The REAL underrated part of Michael's career is his work with The Jackson's. Especially the Destiny and Triumph albums. Two fantastic albums that the fanbase hardy ever talks about

If it's overrated why this thread? Why all these nonsense about "no passion", "guest vocalist on his own album", to many co-writers and co-producers bullcrap?? Why not open a thread like this about Off The Wall or Dangerous? HIStory have similar thread.

I don't think Destiny and Triumph are underrated at all. Maybe earlier stuff like "The Jacksons" and "Going Places".

 

[Tony R]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

Just saying that "people's motives" can actually be quality. Because the album is great, production is marvellous, his vocals are full of passion and perfect!

One other thing. There may be people who grow up on it. For example I started to listen MJ in 1995, my first album was HIStory and that's why HIStory has a special place in my heart. The same way, some fans may have grown up on Invincible and Invincible may have been their first MJ album and though their favourite. No hidden motives.

Fully agree, and I admit I thought the same after my last post. Maybe someone has more of an emotional attachment to Invincible as maybe it was the first MJ album they got into, or one of the songs means something specific to them. I totally get that.

However, being objective, if someone was to listen to OTW through to Invincible, I think majority (obviously not all), would rank Invincible below other works.

Of course, not all feel this way, some really love it (fair enough), but others feel they should love it because it is a Michael Jackson album and to say anything else would be heresy.

It's funny though, because on all MJ forums you'll find at least one thread that talks about people's disappointment in Invincible and you don't get that about any other piece of work with maybe History being the odd exception. This must mean something.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

Destiny and Triumph are more underrated among fans than Invincible

You know, just because one album is considered underrated doesn't make it the ONLY underrated work a singer might have. h34r:

Edit: - re "if someone listens to OTW all through Invincible, Invincible would be ranked low" - nothing but an assumption. Many people who became fans after Invincible was out and got his full discography - as it is - all at once, don't make harsh (or as harsh_ comments on Invincible and rank it pretty high. The critical comments on the album mostly come from people [fans] who experienced the 6 years long wait between this and HIStory (the 4 years long "new album" hype). That's obviously not some scientific fact, but it's true for most fans I had a chance to talk with on that matter or saw their comments... Feel free to actually check it yourself but it's more than just throwing something to the air. Other than that it's just a question of taste, u know.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

However, being objective, if someone was to listen to OTW through to Invincible, I think majority (obviously not all), would rank Invincible below other works.

Yeah, but you should also be objective. And listen to the music ONLY. Forget about charts, short films, live performances, awards, millions of albums sold, iconic clothing and choreography, breaking racial barriers, age, genre, piracy, songwriting and production credits, what was going on in the music and in the world at the time, promotion, World Tours, world records...

Imagine if Invincible had 7 singles, 7 short films, Grammy performance and World Tour with new iconic clothing and choreography, huge promotion.. Michael Jackson's music is just as visual as it is musical. People are identifying his music to his iconic music videos or choreography or clothing or live performances. When you mention Billie Jean to someone - he would automatically think about white glove and moonwalk, or Thriller - red jacket & dancing zombies, or Beat It - zipper jacked and gang members, Smooth Criminal - the lean...

It would be interesting to play all albums from OTW to Invincible or even better all songs shuffled to someone who is tabula rasa, who is totally objective, who never even heard about Michael Jackson, an alien - and let him to rank the albums and songs. But that is impossible when you are the most famous man in the world, dead or alive.

 

[Tony R]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

Yeah, but you should also be objective. And listen to the music ONLY. Forget about charts, short films, live performances, awards, millions of albums sold, iconic clothing and choreography, breaking racial barriers, age, genre, piracy, songwriting and production credits, what was going on in the music and in the world at the time, promotion, World Tours, world records...

Imagine if Invincible had 7 singles, 7 short films, Grammy performance and World Tour with new iconic clothing and choreography, huge promotion.. Michael Jackson's music is just as visual as it is musical. People are identifying his music to his iconic music videos or choreography or clothing or live performances. When you mention Billie Jean to someone - he would automatically think about white glove and moonwalk, or Thriller - red jacket & dancing zombies, or Beat It - zipper jacked and gang members, Smooth Criminal - the lean...

It would be interesting to play all albums from OTW to Invincible or even better all songs shuffled to someone who is tabula rasa, who is totally objective, who never even heard about Michael Jackson, an alien - and let him to rank the albums and songs. But that is impossible when you are the most famous man in the world, dead or alive.

I am totally objective where Invincible is concerned. I can honestly say that for me, take away the short films from previous albums, the performances and tours and the fact that Michael was universally loved, then I am still disappointed by Invincible.

You see, I distinctly remember getting Bad, Dangerous & History on the day of release and being totally blown away by, immersed in and swept up in the genius of the music. I remember finding many tracks on each and putting them on repeat for hours, studying them, wondering how it was possible that one man could be this good. Then came the singles, tours, short films etc...and yes I probably even loved each album even more.

But before the extras there was the music and I remember playing Invincible and at first hearing Unbreakable and being excited, then Heartbreaker & Invincible & by now worrying slightly because of the raps and then it just got worse & I remember thinking that wow....he is actually capable of making average music. I'm sorry that sounds harsh, but many tracks on here sound just that...average.

There is some good stuff like I keep repeating...but...most isn't for me.

I agree it would be interesting to play to someone who hadn't heard his previous music (it would have to be someone from another planet though!) and see what they thought.

The stuff on Xscape is far superior to 60% of Invincible.

 

[Prince Of Pop]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

I don't agree that Invincible, Dangerous & HIStory are too long. Dangerous was just perfect. HIStory was good, but could have had a better selection of tracks. The same with Invincible. Too many songs similar to each other that was back to back, too many weak songs. The album could have been produced and laid out so much better then what we eventually got.

 

[AtlasAir]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

The worst:
Butterflies

waaaaattt

 

[analogue]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

waaaaattt

Yes someone doesn't like Butterflies. God forbid right?

 

[jamba]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

Here's the youtube documentary on Threatened--it's very good, esp. the last one in the series.It goes into all the clips from the Twilight Zone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1My6f6vBXeY

 

[loka]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

It would be interesting to play all albums from OTW to Invincible or even better all songs shuffled to someone who is tabula rasa, who is totally objective, who never even heard about Michael Jackson, an alien - and let him to rank the albums and songs. But that is impossible when you are the most famous man in the world, dead or alive.

Very good Idea...

 

[JEMFTV]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

In my opinion the vocals in Butterflies are amazing. To me it sounds like that he likes singing it.

Okay i changed my mind after re-listening to it. And his vocals are truly really amazing.

 

[analogue]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

Michael's vocals are amazing on every song. He could sing the phone book and it would sound awesome

 

[JEMFTV]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

I just listened to the whole album and rated every song:

1. Unbreakable - 5/5
2. Heartbreaker - 4.7/5
3. Invincible - 5/5
4. Break Of Dawn - 5/5
5. Heaven Can Wait - 5/5
6. You Rock My World - 5/5
7. Butterflies - 5/5
8. Speechless - 5/5
9. 2000 Watts - 4.5/5
10. You Are My Life - 5/5
11. Privacy - 5/5
12. Don't Walk Away - 4.9/5
13. Cry - 5/5
14. The Lost Children - 5/5
15. Whatever Happens 5/5
16. Threatened 5/5

Summary:

It is truly an great (underrated) album. It also includes the most greatest ballads i ever heard!

BUT WHY THE HELL DID SONY LET IT DROP!??

 

[jamba]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

I just listened to the whole album and rated every song:

1. Unbreakable - 5/5
2. Heartbreaker - 4.7/5
3. Invincible - 5/5
4. Break Of Dawn - 5/5
5. Heaven Can Wait - 5/5
6. You Rock My World - 5/5
7. Butterflies - 5/5
8. Speechless - 5/5
9. 2000 Watts - 4.5/5
10. You Are My Life - 5/5
11. Privacy - 5/5
12. Don't Walk Away - 4.9/5
13. Cry - 5/5
14. The Lost Children - 5/5
15. Whatever Happens 5/5
16. Threatened 5/5

Summary:

It is truly an great (underrated) album. It also includes the most greatest ballads i ever heard!

BUT WHY THE HELL DID SONY LET IT DROP!??

Agree with your ratings except I never 'took' to 2k watts (sorry), but maybe I will later on (?).

I think SONY dropped it for a number of reasons, but MJ's press conference didn't help (via his public attack of Mottola), but I think the main reason was that SONY put $30 M into making it. It was then and I think still is the most expensive album ever made. They started to cut corners on it in the promotion, which was stupid in that if they wanted to get their investment back, that was not the way to go. I am not just talking about the videos, performances, etc, but they were trying to cut corner with the Bani photoshoot (according to Bani), which was for a potential cover for the album. They suggested Bani cut costs but he did not and spent so much on that shoot and then they didn't use the cover.

 

[JEMFTV]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

^Oh man.. :/ The cover could've been much greater


EDIT: BTW I rated those 3 songs that way, because they somehow didn't reached me :/

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

I really love 2000 watts, it's unique and I like the metaphors

 

[Fayik]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

First off, I just want to say the media made this album off to be such a flop when it sold 8 MILLION copies worldwide off of just one single and a complete lack of promotion. The interest was so obviously there, I really think he could have sold 30 million just like Dangerous or Bad did; to sell that many copies with doing only literally 5% of what he did for those other albums shows that this was a big seller relatively. Britney's "Britney" album in 2001 sold the same amount of copies, and she was at her peak during that time.

Now, to continue the discussion of the quality of the album: I don't think the problem is the actual songs, but the tracklisting of the tracks. Let's just say if I've never heard the album and I was given a random track to listen to daily from the album every day for 16 days, I would probably love every track. The first trio of songs is already a problem to the album because you now have 3 VERY similar sounding tracks starting off and the listener gets bored. "Unbreakable" is an amazing track and "Heartbreaker" has a great rhythm, I think these are fine to start off the album but I think "Invincible" should have been left off the album or put somewhere else in the tracklist. It's a good song but doesn't match up to the first two tracks. From "Break of Dawn" to "You Are My Life", the songs are perfection. I love every single one of those tracks.

"Break of Dawn" is one of Michael's most sexual songs and that's why I love it, usually he kind of goes around the subject of sex but here he tackles it straight forward. It's such a baby making track. "Heaven Can Wait", "Butterflies" and "Speechless" are some of his best R&B tracks, the melodies are beautiful and his vocals are the best I've heard them yet. Also, I LOVE "You Rock My World" but it was the wrong choice for lead single. "2000 Watts" is a very original club track, I think it was my favorite track when I first heard the album. "You Are My Life"- another example of MJ's quote "Melody is king", the melody, harmonies and vocals on this track are beautiful.

The second half of the album I think is where the problems set in. "Privacy" is a good track, but not needed for the album. Same message we've heard before except on a track that is not as good as the other ones centered around this theme of insensitive media. "Don't Walk Away" is a little too Backstreet Boys, juts a little too generic sounding besides his vocals which are AMAZING. I would still keep it on the album though, maybe make the production a little more grittier. Too cookie-cutter for him, but the emotions that he exudes through it is great. "Cry", like "Privacy", is the same theme he's done before except not as good. "Cry" might be one of the worst tracks on the album and I have NO idea why it was the second single.

"The Lost Children" is SO underrated, one of the better tracks of the album 100%. It's such a MJ track, you can feel his soul through this one. "Whatever Happens" and "Threatened" are some of his best tracks ever; "Threatened" is the modern-day Thriller while "Whatever Happens" is up there with one of his most original tracks.

In conclusion, the album is great but is a little bloated and the songs were not ordered correctly. "Privacy" and "Cry" need to be left off the album. Again, these are not bad tracks and I love them separately but they just bloat the album for no reason.

Singles should have been:

*Buzz Single: "2000 Watts" - release this song to the clubs in January 2001 but don't announce it's MJ yet, kind of let it get around through media that he has a new song that's going around club circuits

1.) "Unbreakable" - March 2001, huge video production, huge lead single premiere, etc.
ALBUM RELEASE: May 29th, 2001
2.) "Butterflies" - June 2001, perfect summer single, was a big R&B hit already with no real single release so it would have been a great REAL second single
3.) "Whatever Happens" - September 2001, one of his best songs and he could have premiered it with a VMA performance with Santana
4.) "Heartbreaker" - January 2002, great way to ring in the new year with a very modern sounding track, could have a Grammy performance
5.) "Heaven Can Wait" - April 2002, breezy track with perfect vocals and harmonies, often looked at as a highlight on the album, very spring sounding
6.) "You Rock My World" - July 2002, SUMMER soundtrack song, slay those family BBQs and the video could have had a new dance that sets the world on fire (something easy though, that people will all try to be copying the moves during the chorus or something)
7.) "Threatened" - October 2002, modern-day Thriller, an iconic music video that would involve the scariest and creepiest imagery, etc.

END era. You could also throw a world tour in there during the era, lol. And then in 2003 he would sweep the Grammys and then take a good long break for the entire year haha.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

^^Nice ideas, but your dates are completely unrealistic and impossible. Majority of songs (production) weren't finished until August of 2001. Also some songs were recorded during 2001 like You Are My Life (recorded only eight weeks before the album's release in October 2001) and I think Butterflies too.

 

[Fayik]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

^^Nice ideas, but your dates are completely unrealistic and impossible. Majority of songs (production) weren't finished until August of 2001. Also some songs were recorded during 2001 like You Are My Life (recorded only eight weeks before the album's release in October 2001) and I think Butterflies too.

I forgot to mention, I was kind of just putting those assuming that the tracks were made already. Do you see what I mean? As in, in a perfect and hypothetical world, the album would have already been completed through 2000 and ready to go in 2001. I'm aware most of the tracks weren't done yet- but just assuming they were that's what I would like to have went down! Because the release schedule that did happen wasn't very good.

 

[MJsBollywoodGirl7]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

I still L.O.V.E. the Invincible album. But I haven't listen to that album in over 5 years now. Ever since what had happen to him. I just could not handle listening to that album. Especially the song Heaven Can Wait. That song was one of my most favorite songs from that album. That album I don't dare go near or even touch now. I do envy you fans that can handle listening to that album. Or the dvd that I have of Michael signing those Invincible cds in New York City. Back on November 7th 2001.

 

[J5master]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

I've seen soooo many Invincible discussions over the years so I guess I'm kinda jaded to opinions on this album. Right when the album came out I've been on a campaign to give Invincible credit when credit is due. All everyone does is criticize it, which - hey thats fine, we all have our opinions. But I've just never been a fan of saying "these songs need to go" or "replace this song with that song" or "this song is just filler" - because everytime I see people state their fav songs from Invincible - is a WIDE RANGE. More so than his other albums in which most people's favorite songs are the same.

And I think in this way, MJ purposefully put the songs he did on there for that reason. There is literally a song for everyone on the album,. And maybe MJ sacrificed the album seeming "disjointed" or "filler" in some people's opinion (and as far as invincible is concerned I've consistently found that one person's 'filler' is another person's FAVORITE SONG IN THE WHOLE ALBUM), but it was his artistic choice at the time and I think it has merit/value. Just like a lot of people feel like HIStory would have been "better" if it had more happy songs or less personal songs - well, not necessarily. HIStory was the album MJ needed to put out at that time, as an artist. Not all of his albums were meant to be sure fire safe bets as MJ was more than just a pop artist (despite the title).

Not to mention no matter what risks he took, all of his albums were number 1 hits. So commercially they were all successes. Maybe they didn't live up to THRILLER, but no one else has. So we can't consider not living up to thriller as 'flops' or 'failures.' Not by a long shot.

So in this way, I guess i'm glad Invincible is as it is, as with all of MJ's albums. Having NOT been born or remembering the Thriller haydays - when I got Invincible in my hands and listened to it for the first time, that was Thriller for ME. Yes, I was blown away by every track (well maybe except one, but I don't swoon over every track from Thriller or OTW either). I remember listening to it the first time vividly. I remember the excitement, the OMFG THAT WAS AWESOME moments of listening to it. Crying during certain songs because it was so beautiful. So as far as it being all about the music? For me, the music killed. I understand if it didn't for some others, but I just want to share the perspective that for some? It WAS a knock out experience to listen to, especially for a new generation of fans. In fact some of the younger fans now are here BECAUSE of Invincible.

So to say that the album is terrible....well, the above would be the reason why I vehemently disagree.

 

[CrazyVegasMJ]

Re: So, Invincible is much better than everybody thought....

Some amazing songs, some of his best songs ever: You Rock My World, Speechless, Whatever Happens, Butterflies, Heaven Can Wait, Unbreakable, Threatened.

But at the same time the album has to many "weak" songs (weaker in comparison to his past albums): Privacy, Cry, The Lost Children, You Are My Life, 2000 Watts, Don't Walk Away.

The "problem" is that the album is too long so it feels like there are to much "fillers". First 8 songs are AMAZING! As good as anything MJ ever recorded. But next 6 songs are just not his best work. Still good songs but not good enough (in my opinion) for MJ studio album, especially when you have songs like Hollywood Tonight, Chicago, Xscape, A Place With No Name, We've Had Enough, One More Chance, Fall Again, Another Day, What More Can I Give! Last 2 songs are, again, AMAZING.

So, to sum it up.. You have album with 10 great songs and 6 not so good songs. If he released 10 track album it would have been perfect. That's why I prefer shorter albums (OTW, Thriller & Bad).

So, my opinion is that Invincible is just as good as Thriller or any other MJ album (Thriller has only 9 songs but all 9 are killers!), but it is still the album with most "fillers" or "weak songs". But that's the problem when you want to release an album with 16 songs - it's impossible to have 16 killer songs (Dangerous & HIStory suffered from that problem also), but I understand MJ that he wanted to give to his fans as much as he can or as much as the CD can hold.

Wow it's like you have completely read my mind on this subject.. And these are the same feelings I've have for yeeeears...