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Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins & Bush /Update Controversy surrounding autographs

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^^^^ Yes I am aware that he may not even answer the question.

Is ther anything we can do to put some pressure on in order to obtain some answers? I know there is an open letter going round but I don't really want to be associated with it and I don't really like the wording as I don't think we can call it a proven fraud (at this stage), but clearly there are enough issues raised to insist on some answers.

*sigh* I just don't want this to be another subject that fans are arguing about forever more.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Even the authenticators give are their opinions, not the fact. Dr white's thing told me opinions had a price. I trust my eyes, after seeing these compares, I will say I am almost convinced they are forgery. It seems Michael Bush and juliens want this whole thing sweep under the rug. Funny, Michael Bush answered fans questions but refuse to say a word about the authenticity of the autographs that brought him 5 millions. If they are real, you would expect him to speak loud about why they didn't look like Michael's, why Michael's writing style changed only in his collections to clear fans confusion and doubts. Isn't our writing style subconscious? not just when you want Michael Jackson's fans money, you act like you care about his fans. I can't believe the estate turn the blind eyes on this, let fans get mobbed and fooled. If the person know there is the fraud but keep silence and let the crook fool others. How does it reflect on that person? in this case, the forgery is to take advantage of fans love to Michael. How can the estate ignore the fans when they say they represent michael Jackson. It's not like fans demand them to examine the autographs. They knew the standee was made after michael death, but who cares let's suck Michael's fans dry. I always think positive of the estate, even after the Cascio's fiasco. the least the estate can do is give the statement to the fans about the standee so fans who bought things in this auction can easily get their money back if it's manufactured after michael's death. They don't have to involved in legal action or sue Michael bush. Fans demand the answer.
 
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

LastTear said:
^^^^ Yes I am aware that he may not even answer the question.

Is ther anything we can do to put some pressure on in order to obtain some answers? I know there is an open letter going round but I don't really want to be associated with it and I don't really like the wording as I don't think we can call it a proven fraud (at this stage), but clearly there are enough issues raised to insist on some answers.

*sigh* I just don't want this to be another subject that fans are arguing about forever more.
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I have not seen this open letter. But my opinion is this WILL become one of those things that will be FOREVER disputed amongst the fans..just like the ...other thing. (don't wanna bring that into this thread. Also I seriously doubt there is anything that we can do to make people answer questions that they don't feel as they need to explain. Its a shame really that there always has to be SOME type of controversy about what seems to be everything MJ. Makes me wonder are people THAT hard up for money? Part of me feels SOOOO bad for even thinking MB could EVER do something like this...it just doesn't feel right to me. But certain pieces of evidence looks "bad"....but I need to keep an open mind until we KNOW something for SURE
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Bushes answers will not clear it up and that is why it will be adessed thoug the proper channels. This is most likely going to become a legal issue. If any litigation against them is made. So its best to not make any statements .. Plus His word is not going to appease any fans anyway. They will just call him a liar. and the debate between fans will still go on. We just have to wait untill legal action is taken on Juliens part or from someone who bougth the merchandise. Or it comes out in the media. The media has been made aware of this .. Has any mainstream media outlet reported on this controversy. I think once it comes out in main stream media they may make a public statement. but not until ..
 
Q&A with Juliens:


Chris Cadman
Here's your chance to ask Darren Julien about your concerns regarding the suspicious autograph items sold at the JA Auctions and anything else of concern. The interview will be conducted by MJJ Collectors. Please ask questions respectfully.

Hello Everyone!

Darren Julien has agreed to conduct an EXCLUSIVE interview with MJJCollectors.com. As you all know, the recent Tompkins & Bush memorabilia auction held by Julien’s Auctions caused quite a bit of controversy among some members of the MJ fan community. Julien wants to state his position and respond to this criticism, and has chosen our site as a forum to do so.

This is YOUR opportunity to ask Darren Julien anything and everything you would like (including, but not limited to, the recent Tompkins & Bush auction). We only have one criteria for this: BE RESPECTFUL. This is NOT an opportunity for anyone to besmirch or attack Julien and/or Michael Bush (you have other platforms for that), and accusatory or disrespectful questions will be deleted from this thread.

If you don’t want your questions to be posted here, you can email them to us privately at admin@mjjcollectors.com. Feel free to ask as many questions as you would like, and we will select the best ones to ask him. Please post here or email your questions on or before Tuesday, December 18th. Okay, then, let’s get started!

Ron
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

IMO...a Q&A with Michael Bush from MJJC and now MJJCollectors.com getting Q&A with Julian's...we are bound to get some straight answers. Just wanna say a BIG Thank you to BOTH parties for making this happen!!
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

xthunderx2 said:
IMO...a Q&A with Michael Bush from MJJC and now MJJCollectors.com getting Q&A with Julian's...we are bound to get some straight answers. Just wanna say a BIG Thank you to BOTH parties for making this happen!!
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It's a start, right? Like you I fear that this will just be ongoing and qbee is right just words are probably not going to appease peoples minds.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

LastTear said:
It's a start, right? Like you I fear that this will just be ongoing and qbee is right just words are probably not going to appease peoples minds.
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yes,..it sure is a start a positive one imo. And I also agree...this won't make a difference to some in the end.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

To clear any confusion: MJJC Q&A with Michael Bush had been planned since June and it's about his book. There's only one question about the autographs and asking him to explain his side in this controversy. There's no guarantee that he'll respond to that question.

I wanted this to be known because our Q&A isn't focused on the auction or the autographs. I don't want to give false hopes or wrong expectations.
 
la_cienega;3749859 said:
Q&A with Juliens:


Chris Cadman
Here's your chance to ask Darren Julien about your concerns regarding the suspicious autograph items sold at the JA Auctions and anything else of concern. The interview will be conducted by MJJ Collectors. Please ask questions respectfully.

Hello Everyone!

Darren Julien has agreed to conduct an EXCLUSIVE interview with MJJCollectors.com. As you all know, the recent Tompkins & Bush memorabilia auction held by Julien’s Auctions caused quite a bit of controversy among some members of the MJ fan community. Julien wants to state his position and respond to this criticism, and has chosen our site as a forum to do so.

This is YOUR opportunity to ask Darren Julien anything and everything you would like (including, but not limited to, the recent Tompkins & Bush auction). We only have one criteria for this: BE RESPECTFUL. This is NOT an opportunity for anyone to besmirch or attack Julien and/or Michael Bush (you have other platforms for that), and accusatory or disrespectful questions will be deleted from this thread.

If you don’t want your questions to be posted here, you can email them to us privately at admin@mjjcollectors.com. Feel free to ask as many questions as you would like, and we will select the best ones to ask him. Please post here or email your questions on or before Tuesday, December 18th. Okay, then, let’s get started!

Ron
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Do you have a link for this so that we can tweet it?
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

ivy said:
To clear any confusion: MJJC Q&A with Michael Bush had been planned since June and it's about his book. There's only one question about the autographs and asking him to explain his side in this controversy. There's no guarantee that he'll respond to that question.

I wanted this to be known because our Q&A isn't focused on the auction or the autographs. I don't want to give false hopes or wrong expectations.
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ok Ivy I understand what you are saying . IF MB chooses to answer the question and HE SHOULD even though all this happened AFTER the book was released then that is a great thing...should he choose NOT to answer...then to me that is a Red flag..you would think that he would WANT to clear the air about this. Not that he owes ANYTHING to MJ fans in general...but that he DOES owe an explanation to "buyers' in general...and it just so happens that SOME MJ fans happen to fall in the 'Buyer" category.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Bubs said:
How Michael was treated by the public and the press was brutal, no man/woman should ever have to go through such a treatment.

I just cannot understand the hypocrisy of some people that they think Michael is the only one that should be treated like human, but same courtesy is not extended to other people. There were even fans that tweeted to members of media offering a scoop regarding "fake signatures", if that is not hanging a man before investigation, I don't know what is, and believe you me, that is not all what fans has done.

Everyone is entitled for defend themselves, including MB. It may not come immediately when you want it, but it will eventually.
I cannot say why Bush will not say anything about signatures yet, but Morinen had a talk with him (posted on news section) and this is what MB told: He said he understood, and that the situation would be cleared through proper and official sources

To me it looks like there is more to come, so we should wait before we announce him guilty.

If we are going to get answers that clears the issue with signature, what those fans are going to do to undo the damage they have done to Bush? They cannot take back the nasty words they posted in the internet, they cannot withdraw the tweets they posted about Bush's alleged forgery. But it is all ok, because what they did was all for love for Michael. I bet Michael would be bursting with bride that he has such nice fans.
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Bubs, like I said before what happened to Michael was pure hell and no one should go through that and that includes MB.

There's no excuse for going to the media with acussations without proof, even to defend Michael. I think those fans you're referring think they're doing something good for Michael, but at the end the fans will end up losing. But what happens here are just comments and believe me we all don't agree with everything, but we must try & accept that if others have different opinions they might have a reason.

When Michael was acussed he told the world he was inocent and I didn't believe him. Only after I read the court transcripts, I started to see the true. People have questions and want answers. Believe me when I say I hope all this is a misunderstanding because I don't want to believe that MB took advantage of Michael.

Peace. I love you.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

xthunderx2 said:
After going through the 'Handwritings of Michael" thread here on MJJC I am not confused anymore about these autographs. WE KNOW Michael's handwriting and these autographs are NOT his..IMO. Here check out the thread for yourself..that thread is beautiful. http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/99620-REQ-Hand-writings-of-Michael
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Thanks, the thing is we have so much examples of michael's handwriting, that I do not understand why someone would try to fake a signature and make them all look alike.

About the Q & A with Juliens, I cannot see what purpose it would serve? If you ask Juliens if the signatures are legit, what do you think he will say? Look at the statement that was sent to that customer. That is the basic way they answer people when conflicts arise--statements that say nothing really and are made to appease the customer without the seller acknowledging that they are at fault. So to me, that Q & A is more about having a dialog than to gain any clarity or truthfulness.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Aquarius said:
There's no excuse for going to the media with acussations without proof, even to defend Michael. I think those fans you're referring think they're doing something good for Michael, but at the end the fans will end up losing. But what happens here are just comments and believe me we all don't agree with everything, but we must try & accept that if others have different opinions they might have a reason.
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The bolded part is so spot on, agreed.

It is just heart breaking to see what happens to people online every day. I just read from my local papers that 15 year girl killed herself for being bullied online, and 6 weeks earlier her sister killed herself for same reason, she too was bullied.
I'm not saying Bush is going to kill himself, but if he is innocent, all this must hurt him badly, and I do not wish it to anyone.
I read comments below articles about Bush and his book, his Facebook and tweets to Bush. Mostly what he received was one form of bulling and straight abuse, and it is hard to face that fans of MJ could go that far, in the name of Michael Jackson.
Is it even about Michael anymore or is it something else, feeling hate and it has to be directed to someone, wanting to be right, tearing someone down for just sake of it?


"we must try & accept that if others have different opinions they might have a reason"
Next time when Jermaine or Randy do or say something stupid, remember this:)
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Autograph mag (J- Bush auction thread) had an interesting post from the moderator this morning (below) ..assuming this is true.

I can think of only one reason why J's would not want anyone to discuss their Bush signed items with reference to the photographs from the auction. The hole seems to get deeper. Perhaps it is time for J's to stop digging?

Autograph magazine.com
Reply by Steve Cyrkin

Heads up, everyone:

Mike Frost reports that according to Todd Mueller, Darren Julien filed a violation notice Thursday morning with our website service provider like Mueller did, claiming we're violating Julien's Auctions' copyrights on images. We absolutely are not--we are allowed to use them under fair use laws to provide criticism, commentary and discussion in the public interest. But if Mueller is telling the truth, they will take the images down for at least 10 days while we answer and so Julien's can file a claim in court if they want.

Mueller's real goal, as you can see by reading the paragraph from his filing below, is to have this site destroyed by having as many people file copyright violation claims as possible. He told Mike that Global Authentication and Iconographs (Nelson Deedle) are also filing them. He urged Mike to, too, but of course, he won't.

This is what Mueller said in his filing:

"PLEASE BE AWARE: THE OWNER OF WWW.LIVE.AUTOGRAPHMAGAZINE.COM IS A
REPEAT OFFENDER AND HAS CONTINUALLY VIOLATED MY COPYRIGHT. I AM
REQUESTING NING TO FOLLOW THEIR OWN 'RULES AND REGULATION' REGARDING
THIS MATTER. USERS THAT HAVE MORE THAN 2 THIRD PARTY DMCA SHOULD BE
DELETED FROM YOU NETWORK."

Todd Mueller doesn't care about our 3,600 members. He just wants this site deleted so collectors can't learn anymore what's real and what's fake.
 
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Bubs said:
"we must try & accept that if others have different opinions they might have a reason"
Next time when Jermaine or Randy do or say something stupid, remember this:)
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There's a huge difference between fans & Jermaine or Randy. Fans may act bad but I believe it's in good faith, they do it for Michael. Jermaine & Randy do it because they believe they deserve the glory & money their have and is achieving.

I think bullying comes from insecure people and unfortunatelly sometimes the bullied doesn't realize this and suffer until they think there's no way out but suicide. It's sad & it's happening. I'm sorry to hear about those two girls, their families also are victims of bullying. It doesn't look good if Michael's fans or anyone if bullying MB. hope that stops.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Are we ever gonna find out the truth if those signatures are real or fake?

Michael and us don't deserve such bullsh!t around him!
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Snow White luvs Peter Pan said:
Are we ever gonna find out the truth if those signatures are real or fake?

Michael and us don't deserve such bullsh!t around him!
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I don't see how we will if Juliens is going to refund the money if someone questions the signatures? Bush is not saying anything, and Juliens is saying we stand by Bush. This might end up to be one of the situations where you know something wrong happened, but you can't prove it because no one is saying anything. Even Bravado is not saying anything.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Yup petrarose, I still believe MB forged at least some of the signatures, but those involved and profiting from the auction obviously want to keep things under the rug. We'll never know for sure, I guess.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Rhilo said:
Yup petrarose, I still believe MB forged at least some of the signatures, but those involved and profiting from the auction obviously want to keep things under the rug. We'll never know for sure, I guess.
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There seems to be a longish list of questions going to Julien's next weekend via MJJ Collectors (on FB), so perhaps people will wait for the answers. Julien's have also been busy with another auction (Garbo) this weekend, so don't seem to have been prioritising 'Bush' auction issues, until 'Garbo' is out of the way.

Also, Bush is still on 'Book tour' until the 22nd Dec.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

myosotis said:
Autograph mag (J- Bush auction thread) had an interesting post from the moderator this morning (below) ..assuming this is true.

I can think of only one reason why J's would not want anyone to discuss their Bush signed items with reference to the photographs from the auction. The hole seems to get deeper. Perhaps it is time for J's to stop digging?

Autograph magazine.com

Heads up, everyone:

Mike Frost reports that according to Todd Mueller, Darren Julien filed a violation notice Thursday morning with our website service provider like Mueller did, claiming we're violating Julien's Auctions' copyrights on images. We absolutely are not--we are allowed to use them under fair use laws to provide criticism, commentary and discussion in the public interest. But if Mueller is telling the truth, they will take the images down for at least 10 days while we answer and so Julien's can file a claim in court if they want.
Click to expand...

Well, it seems that Julien's have been as good as their word, and filed a takedown notice against autograph mag website for the copyright on the auction photos...so no auction online catalogue pictures can be visibly discussed and the signatures compared on the autograph mag website.
Seems very counterproductive to me, as it does give a very strong impression that there may be something to hide.

17th Dec update: 'Bush' Julien's auction thread on Autograph magazine.com

Moderator: We just got the take down notice from Julien's Auctions for claims of copyright violations.
Question: did this come directly from Juliens or from your webhost?
Moderator: From our service provider. They received a notice from Julien's.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I'd be more pissed if I had bought the White House jacket for $144.000: "a White House jacket worn by Jackson to a visit with President George Bush sold for $144,000".
23lo9z6.jpg
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^Lady gaga bought it. A pricey replica smh
 
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Wait, that isn't the actual jacket he wore to the White House? They sold a replica?
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

mthalen said:
I'd be more pissed if I had bought the White House jacket for $144.000: "a White House jacket worn by Jackson to a visit with President George Bush sold for $144,000".
23lo9z6.jpg
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Great observation!!!!!!
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

mthalen said:
I'd be more pissed if I had bought the White House jacket for $144.000: "a White House jacket worn by Jackson to a visit with President George Bush sold for $144,000".
23lo9z6.jpg
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The description says "Michael wore this jacket as he visited the White House" so according to them its not a replica...

THIS IS SO MESSY, wtf!

Look at the buttons. It would be one thing if they wrote in the description its just a replica or whatever but according to them, its the actual jacket he wore, but the buttons doesnt add up.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

If they wrote it's just the replica who would want to buy it. You can make thousands of replica. The value of the jacket is Michael Jackson actually wore it, it's just like those questionable "MJ" autographs and the standee Michael signed after his death. The whole auction is messy. Maybe next year we will see another Michael bush's auction of "Michael" items. I read he still have many Michael costumes:smilerolleyes:.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

loveforever said:
If they wrote it's just the replica who would want to buy it. You can make thousands of replica. The value of the jacket is Michael Jackson actually wore it,
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Exactly, this is false advertising and Im sure there are laws against that. Imagine if Lady Gaga would sue. What a friggin mess this is. Shm.
 
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