Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins & Bush /Update Controversy surrounding autographs

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Did he wear a similar or the same jacket to any other event? It's clear that almost every item had multiples which include history teaser outfit and La Gear License jacket. So this could be a double too. But yeah this is a misrepresentation of the item

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

To add: On page 92 of Bush's book there's a set of pictures about this jacket and under it this is written

After we began to photograph all of our creations for Michael, we made sure to capture details like the ones on this hussar, which is a recreation of the jacket he gave away to an adoring fan in an elevator.

so that makes Julien's description wrong and Bush in this book saying it's a replica.

 

[Vici]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

But yeah this is a misrepresentation of the item

so that makes Julien's description wrong and Bush in this book saying it's a replica.

And this is the issue and imo a very important one. I would have felt lied to if Id bought it thinking it was the very same jacket he wore.

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

To add: On page 92 of Bush's book there's a set of pictures about this jacket and under it this is written

After we began to photograph all of our creations for Michael, we made sure to capture details like the ones on this hussar, which is a recreation of the jacket he gave away to an adoring fan in an elevator.

so that makes Julien's description wrong and Bush in this book saying it's a replica.

bolded-- could it be the recreation was made while Michael was alive & probably there was a chance he wore it?

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I'd be more pissed if I had bought the White House jacket for $144.000: "a White House jacket worn by Jackson to a visit with President George Bush sold for $144,000".

Is the shiny bling missing between the rows on the jacket? Or can I just not see it?

 

[bluetopez]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Yes what mess. Many of those autographs look sloppy and look like Bush own handwriting when I saw the comparisons?! How sad. And that jacket above is definitely different then the one he wore to meet President Bush. The replica is even noticeably longer in the waste area. Someone should send that info to Gaga and see what she thinks?!

The only other time I seen MJ wearing that same Jacket he met President Bush in, was when he wore the same exact outfit in that 1990's breakfast press conference at the Regent Beverly Wilshire Hotel in Beverly Hills California. When he was honored by CBS for being the Top Selling Artist Of The Decade for selling 110 million records in the 80's. And yep the Jacket suppose to have "shiny bling" between the rows.

 

[morinen]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

It seems there were at least 3 copies of the White House Jacket.

1. Original: red cuffs, 14 buttons, as seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=O2OGrg5-E_U#!
2. Replica 1: black cuffs, 14 buttons, as shown on page 92 in the book.
3. Replica 2: red cuffs, 18 buttons, sold at Juliens http://www.julienslive.com/view-auctions/catalog/id/77/lot/33767/

 

[myosotis]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

It seems there were at least 3 copies of the White House Jacket.

1. Original: red cuffs, 14 buttons, as seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=O2OGrg5-E_U#!
2. Replica 1: black cuffs, 14 buttons, as shown on page 92 in the book.
3. Replica 2: red cuffs, 18 buttons, sold at Juliens http://www.julienslive.com/view-auctions/catalog/id/77/lot/33767/

And it seems that the real 'original original' (not the White House jkt) was given away in 1985, which is 5 years before the White House award appearance.
(Ref King of Style p 91 'In 1985, shortly after I joined Michael's camp, he and I were in an elevator with a doting fan'....etc).

This poses some interesting questions, not least of which is 'where is the real 'White House' Jacket'? Since the pearl award jacket (in a similar short style) is also missing (and poor Michael had to be laid to rest in a replica), perhaps the same person has both?

 

[loveforever]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

To add: On page 92 of Bush's book there's a set of pictures about this jacket and under it this is written

After we began to photograph all of our creations for Michael, we made sure to capture details like the ones on this hussar, which is a recreation of the jacket he gave away to an adoring fan in an elevator.

so that makes Julien's description wrong and Bush in this book saying it's a replica.

Shouldn't what Julien described as what Michael Bush told them? The auction house list the items according to the seller's description, right? Juliens don't know or own the items, the sellers do. If Bush told them it's the replica of White House jacket, it should be listed as that, not pretend it's the actual jacket Michael wearing in White House. I am wondering how many costumes are like this? even the replica made after Michael's death, but labeled as "Michael's actual clothes", people wouldn't find out.

 

[myosotis]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Shouldn't what Julien described as what Michael Bush told them? The auction house list the items according to the seller's description, right? Juliens don't know or own the items, the sellers do. If Bush told them it's the replica of White House jacket, it should be listed as that, not pretend it's the actual jacket Michael wearing in White House. I am wondering how many costumes are like this? even the replica made after Michael's death, but labeled as "Michael's actual clothes", people wouldn't find out.

I agree entirely. I wonder if there are ANY photographs of Michael wearing the 18 -button jacket with the red cuffs?

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

And it seems that the real 'original original' (not the White House jkt) was given away in 1985, which is 5 years before the White House award appearance.
(Ref King of Style p 91 'In 1985, shortly after I joined Michael's camp, he and I were in an elevator with a doting fan'....etc).

This poses some interesting questions, not least of which is 'where is the real 'White House' Jacket'? Since the pearl award jacket (in a similar short style) is also missing (and poor Michael had to be laid to rest in a replica), perhaps the same person has both?

It seems there were at least 3 copies of the White House Jacket.

1. Original: red cuffs, 14 buttons, as seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=O2OGrg5-E_U#!
2. Replica 1: black cuffs, 14 buttons, as shown on page 92 in the book.
3. Replica 2: red cuffs, 18 buttons, sold at Juliens http://www.julienslive.com/view-auctions/catalog/id/77/lot/33767/

He calls it the "black hussar" so I'm assuming the original jacket is the one shown on page 92 on the book, the one with the 14 buttons and black cuffs and given away in 1985. They do the second one with the red cuffs for 1990 again I'm guessing and perhaps they did 2 jackets at the same time - one shorter (14 buttons) and one longer (18 buttons).

or he's mixing up the years and so on. who knows.

When you read the book 2 copies of jackets seems to be normal. For example they had 2 slightly different white jackets prepared, some other jackets are also in doubles but in slightly different materials / designs. see below

This is a comparison I did when some people claimed the items from 2009 auction - which are in Estate's possession- is being sold in this auction. They weren't. They are just similar designs with slight differences.

 

[morinen]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

He calls it the "black hussar" so I'm assuming the original jacket is the one shown on page 92 on the book, the one with the 14 buttons and black cuffs and given away in 1985. They do the second one with the red cuffs for 1990 again I'm guessing and perhaps they did 2 jackets at the same time - one shorter (14 buttons) and one longer (18 buttons).

or he's mixing up the years and so on. who knows.

Yeah, he also says in another place that he really started working for Michael continuously during the Bad tour and MJ's first commissions to him were tour clothes. This doesn't compute with a jacket in 1985. Who knows.

 

[zhelva]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

The autographs, the standee and now this?

So this wasn't a jacket that he wore at the White house (and was sold under the pretext it was) and it's possible that he never even wore it?!

As I said before, I really want to believe this whole auction thing is "ok" and authentic but with things like that Bush is loosing credibility in my eyes.

I don't wanna point fingers and I know there's currently no hard evidence but hey, there are too many things that look suspicious.

SMH

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

After reading the book as far as I can understand, these aren't "one of a kind" items. These are limited number of one of a kind designs. They are still authentic in the sense that they are created by Bush and Tompkins for Michael.

 

[myosotis]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Did he wear a similar or the same jacket to any other event? It's clear that almost every item had multiples which include history teaser outfit and La Gear License jacket. So this could be a double too. But yeah this is a misrepresentation of the item

I think the 'Bush auction' jacket was maybe worn with Lisa Marie in 1994???


http://[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/24/whstylejktwithlisamarie.png/][/URL]

 

[Vici]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

After reading the book as far as I can understand, these aren't "one of a kind" items. These are limited number of one of a kind designs. They are still authentic in the sense that they are created by Bush and Tompkins for Michael.

Of course they are authentic but thats not really the issue here.

They have described it's the jacket Michael actually wore at that event, but that doesnt seem to be correct.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I think the 'Bush auction' jacket was maybe worn with Lisa Marie in 1994???


http://[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/24/whstylejktwithlisamarie.png/][/URL]

yep, you are absolutely correct. Look to the below picture you can count 18 loops for the 18 buttons

and you can see at least 16 buttons here , top ones aren't visible from his hair

18 buttons and red on the collar can be seen at this one - same picture myosotis posted but a wider look

so it's worn by Michael, not to the White House but to the MTV awards where he kissed Lisa Marie.

 

[mthalen]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Great detective work!
OK, so it was original, only from a different event.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^^

yes, here's a bigger picture that you can count the 18 buttons a lot more easily and see the red on the collar if you look carefully. thanks to myosotis for pointing out the jacket and the event

 

[marebear]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I think this is stressing people out whether something is real or not. I hope this gets sorted out.

 

[bluetopez]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Okay so some were doubting if it were real? Oh I thought the issue was just when did he wear it and where too? Because the description for the Jacket was wrong.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Okay so some were doubting if it were real? Oh I thought the issue was just when did he wear it and where too? Because the description for the Jacket was wrong.

As the description said it's "white house" jacket some people compared it to the white house photos and assumed it was a fake replica. However as you can see that we were able to confirm that it's an original item that's worn by Michael. So it's a legit item with wrong description.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

FYI

KNBC-TV Los Angeles is running an investigative report tonight on Julien's Auctions' Tompkins & Bush Michael Jackson sale. It will be on the News at 11, after the finale of "The Voice"...which means it should have 4-5 times the normal audience.

It should be on their website about midnight Pacific Time. Look for it at http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

[video=facebook;559353387411965]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=559353387411965&set=vb.100000119274959&type=2&theater[/video]

 

[bluetopez]

[video=youtube_share;HlM7fPQTCko]http://youtu.be/HlM7fPQTCko[/video] Complete video of the Juliens investigation. Bush responds breifly. The video is Bad Quality. But, right now I can't found it on NBC. So this will have to do for now? =/ Sorry about the source it comes from which is Taaj Malik. Who posted it on her Fb & Youtube.....no surprise there though! Hope someone finds a better version from NBC soon? Really wanna see the side by side that guy was doing on his computer. =O


Investigation: Autographed Michael Jackson Memorabilia May Be Phony

An auction featuring autographed memorabilia from the King of Pop garnered more than $5 million in one day.


By Joel Grover, Chris Henao and Phil Drechsler

| Tuesday, Dec 18, 2012 | Updated 11:45 PM PST

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Three years after his death, Michael Jackson remains the "King of Pop." Fans are willing to pay big bucks for almost anything with Jackson&#8217;s autograph. But an NBC4 I-Team Investigation found evidence that some of these autographs being sold may be fakes.
Acting on a tip, the I-Team attended a Dec. 2 auction at Julien&#8217;s Auctions in Beverly Hills of Jackson memorabilia owned by the singer&#8217;s longtime costume designers Dennis Tompkins and Michael Bush.
The auction garnered more than $5 million in one day. Buyers included Lady Gaga, who tweeted that she bought 55 items, including a $180,000 jacket with Jackson&#8217;s signature.
Experts say many of the items sold for high prices because they were supposedly autographed by Jackson himself. But five nationally-known autograph authenticators tell the I-Team that at least some of the auctioned autographs are probably fakes.
"I would definitely stake my reputation on the fact that these autographs are not authentic," autograph authenticator Roger Epperson said after examining signatures from 50 of the nearly 300 signed items recently auctioned at Julien&#8217;s.
Epperson is widely known as one of the nation&#8217;s experts on Michael Jackson&#8217;s autograph. He authenticates autographs for some of the nation&#8217;s biggest auction houses, and sells signed memorabilia himself.
One of the items Epperson examined was an autographed jacket (pictured below) from Jackson&#8217;s &#8220;Bad&#8221; Tour, bought for $4,375 by Beverly Hills dentist Joseph Goodman. "I am a big Michael Jackson fan," Goodman told the I-Team. "I wanted something signed."
"There&#8217;s a zero percent chance that that&#8217;s an authentic signature of Michael Jackson," Epperson said after examining the signature on the jacket Goodman bought. "The slant of the 'M' in 'Jackson' leans towards the right. A real one leans more to the left. The shapes are wrong, the slants are wrong, the size is wrong."
Experts say authenticating autographs is not science, but rather an expertise based on years of studying signatures. So the I-Team asked four more well-known authenticators to examine 11 autographed items from the Julien&#8217;s auction, including PSA/DNA, a company which authenticates for Christie&#8217;s Auction House and eBay.
Three of the four experts said it was their opinions that all 11 signatures were probably fakes. "Likely Not Genuine" is how PSA/DNA characterized the 11 autographs. The fourth expert said eight of the autograph samples we sent were "not likely to be genuine," and on three of them he was "unable to render an opinion."
The I-Team spoke with Michael Bush, Jackson&#8217;s longtime designer and the owner of the items auctioned at Julien&#8217;s. The I-Team asked Bush, who made millions from the Dec. 2 auction, why he thought experts were saying the autographs on his memorabilia were fake.
"I don&#8217;t know how to respond to it," he said. "I&#8217;m going to fake a bunch of signatures, a bunch of clothes, to destroy my reputation for 25 years of working for Michael? No, no."
The owner of Julien&#8217;s Auctions, Darren Julien, told the I-Team he believes the autographs he sold are genuine. "They come from someone who worked very closely with Michael Jackson &#8230; the people who made the items for Michael Jackson," Julien said.
The I-Team asked Julien to provide us with the names of any experts his auction used to authenticate the autographed items he sold for more than $1.5 million on Dec. 2. Julien told us to contact Laura Woolley, owner of The Collector&#8217;s Lab.
But Woolley told the I-Team she&#8217;s an appraiser of auction items, not an autograph authenticator. And she said one of the authenticators used by the I-Team, PSA/DNA, is reputable.
"I think they do great work," she said of PSA/DNA.
Woolley did say she&#8217;s looked at many of the autographed items in the Julien&#8217;s auction and thinks they&#8217;re genuine autographs. "I have no reason to doubt Michael Bush. The provenance of these signatures is solid," Woolley said.
Many autograph experts and buyers disagree, and are posting their comments on websites like Autograph Magazine Live.
"All but a few autographs in the Tompkins and Bush sale (at Julien&#8217;s) are so bad they don&#8217;t even resemble Michael Jackson&#8217;s signature," said Steve Cyrkin, editor of Autograph Magazine Live.
Those comments appear to have caught the attention of the FBI. Two of the I-Team&#8217;s sources said they have been contacted by the FBI about the allegedly fake autographs, and said that the agency requested interviews with them. FBI Spokesperson Laura Eimiller would "neither confirm nor deny" that the agency is investigating the autographs sold in the recent auction.
The brewing controversy has some purchasers of Jackson memorabilia feeling buyer&#8217;s remorse, including Goodman, who bought that signed jacket. "If it&#8217;s a fake signature, I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m interested anymore" in keeping the jacket, Goodman said.
Julien has told the I-Team if any customer questions the authenticity of an autographed item they bought, he will give them their money back.

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/l...utographed-Memorabilia-Auction-184043141.html

 

[Bubs]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

As the description said it's "white house" jacket some people compared it to the white house photos and assumed it was a fake replica. However as you can see that we were able to confirm that it's an original item that's worn by Michael. So it's a legit item with wrong description.

So after all it is original but description was incorrect.
It could've been honest mistake on MB's behalf. He could have told Julien's that it was jacket MJ wore in White House, they print it in their catalogue as they were told. I think it is understandable that after designing countless amount of costumes for MJ, and some of them replicas with slightly different than original, he might not remember correctly which of 3 costumes were worn and where. I don't think it would have made much difference to sale if the description was, MJ wore it MTV awards show where the famous kiss with LMP happened Wasn't there some mistakes in MB's book as to where MJ was wearing certain costumes, but in the end MJ wore those costumes but in different event?

 

[Vici]

[video=youtube_share;HlM7fPQTCko]http://youtu.be/HlM7fPQTCko[/video] "I would definitely stake my reputation on the fact that these autographs are not authentic," autograph authenticator Roger Epperson said after examining signatures from 50 of the nearly 300 signed items recently auctioned at Julien’s.

Experts say authenticating autographs is not science, but rather an expertise based on years of studying signatures. So the I-Team asked four more well-known authenticators to examine 11 autographed items from the Julien’s auction, including PSA/DNA, a company which authenticates for Christie’s Auction House and eBay.

]Three of the four experts said it was their opinions that all 11 signatures were probably fakes. "Likely Not Genuine" is how PSA/DNA characterized the 11 autographs. The fourth expert said eight of the autograph samples we sent were "not likely to be genuine," and on three of them he was "unable to render an opinion."

Ivy, is that man Epperson one of those guys that Juliens doesnt like? I remember you said there are two/three authenticators that doesnt get along with Juliens.


To Virre, in this video.. Julien says everybody who wants to refund their money will be granted, so maybe you can try one more time to contact them.

 

[myosotis]

Re:

'Julien has told the I-Team if any customer questions the authenticity of an autographed item they bought, he will give them their money back.'

Well, the above is good news for any buyers who feel that they wish to take up that offer. I guess J's don't want these items going to arbitration, since if one is found to be inauthentic, then likely all will be...as they are all from the same source and of very similar appearance.


The 'WH Jacket' issue does make me wonder about other items in the catalogue. It is probably my eyes, but I cannot see that the 'Dirty Diana' shirt (Lot 712) has a more opaque panel on the front of it. The video is very intercut so hard to see clearly, but the shirt looks very similar in fabric weight overall. You can perhaps see it best when Michael leans into the car at the end.
I also can't seem to find any photos of Michael wearing the jacket in Lot 1009, which is described as being in the Dangerous programme, J Exley photoshoot. It would be nice to see really clear photos of Michael wearing all of the 'less common' items that are noted as being 'worn by' him.
I wonder why does MLB have a military jacket that MJ bought in a vintage shop in his items? (Lot 832).

As to this:

'The I-Team asked Bush, who made millions from the Dec. 2 auction, why he thought experts were saying the autographs on his memorabilia were fake.
"I don&#8217;t know how to respond to it," he said. "I&#8217;m going to fake a bunch of signatures, a bunch of clothes, to destroy my reputation for 25 years of working for Michael? No, no."'

I think fans especially would like a clear explanation of when and how Michael came to sign things such as the can of stain remover, the ironing board etc, plus of course the standee.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

So after all it is original but description was incorrect.
It could've been honest mistake on MB's behalf.

It could have been, he could have mixed up two every similar jackets 20 years later but I guess some like to assume the worst and love their "smoking guns".

 

[Nathy MJ]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

So after all it is original but description was incorrect.
It could've been honest mistake on MB's behalf. He could have told Julien's that it was jacket MJ wore in White House, they print it in their catalogue as they were told. I think it is understandable that after designing countless amount of costumes for MJ, and some of them replicas with slightly different than original, he might not remember correctly which of 3 costumes were worn and where. I don't think it would have made much difference to sale if the description was, MJ wore it MTV awards show where the famous kiss with LMP happened Wasn't there some mistakes in MB's book as to where MJ was wearing certain costumes, but in the end MJ wore those costumes but in different event?

Bush, in fact says in his book that Michael gave the White House jacket to a fan, so how can he mess up and describe it wrong to Julien? I can't understand that...