Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins & Bush /Update Controversy surrounding autographs

[Virre]

I can´t believe I actually bought something from that auction.. what a waste of money..

Regarding LaToya´s t-shirt. I got an answer from someone who said that when Michael had a lot of time to sign clothes they used to stretch them out for him. Maybe they did that with LaToya´s or maybe not.

 

[LastTear]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^^^ Yeah but how did it end up in her possession? It's not like they saw a lot of each other.

 

[Virre]

^^One can only guess.. She took it from Carolwood. Bravado gave it to her, but since they had no finished products in June but only designs on paper I guess that is not possible either. Or the signature is printed on the t-shirt and if it is I can´t think it would be worth $99 000.

I wish there were someone that were around Michael a lot that doesn´t lie that could have all the answers for us. wishful thinking though.

 

[LastTear]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Yes that would be so nice, but some would still find flaws though. I hope the person that spent so much money on it demands answers... I know I would.

 

[Virre]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I would like to know if the signature on the item I bought is genuine. I have no clue how though. I already paid too.

 

[LastTear]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Yes I don't blame you! Perhaps you should email the auction house saying that you are hearing much on line that some signatures are fake/ are a fraud and ask what measures they took to ensure all items they sold were genuine.

Edit: Lay it on thick about the emotional distress this is causing you etc

 

[Annita]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Edit..........

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I would like to know if the signature on the item I bought is genuine. I have no clue how though. I already paid too.

As a buyer your best option is to connect Julien's and tell them all the controversy you are hearing about the signatures and see what they say. (http://www.juliensauctions.com/contact.html) and let us know too. I'm sorry that you are confused and hurt in this situation.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

As a buyer your best option is to connect Julien's and tell them all the controversy you are hearing about the signatures and see what they say. (http://www.juliensauctions.com/contact.html) and let us know too. I'm sorry that you are confused and hurt in this situation.

Ivy can't she simply hire an expert herself and then take that analysis to Juliens? I remember when Michael died and Bravado was selling all the shirts with the date of each performance on it, I ordered some because they claimed I would get them before a specific date. When the date arrived, I did not get the items and I called Bravado. I was told that the items had not even been made by the manufacturer yet and they miscalculated. They could not tell me when I would get the items and blamed everything on the manufactures. It was then I learned that after Michael died, Bravado still decided to make those items and sell them. I had always thought these items were already made and waiting to be shipped to London for the performances--foolish me. Of course, I then cancelled all the shirt orders.

It seems now that some of the items from this auction may have authentic signatures and some do not. Does anyone think that Bush had several items that were worn/belong to Michael, but they were not signed, so someone signed them to increase the value? I know things are sold all the time with signatures that are not done by the artist themselves. Even the Metropolitan Museum in New York will show masterpieces, and there have been instances where they will quietly withdraw a painting for review. Then you never see the painting back up. The thing is that people and museums are duped at times.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Ivy can't she simply hire an expert herself and then take that analysis to Juliens?

Not at this stage IMO. First step would be to tell them dissatisfaction and see what they'll say or do. They might even suggest to refund the money - if that's what Virre wants. That would remove the need to do anything else. An expert would only become useful if the goal is to challenge Juliens and even take it to court.

It seems now that some of the items from this auction may have authentic signatures and some do not. Does anyone think that Bush had several items that were worn/belong to Michael, but they were not signed, so someone signed them to increase the value?

Not all items were signed. Actually many of the signature pieces that Lady Gaga collected was unsigned. There were a lot of signed pictures and so on and they sold for on the average $400 - $500. The main valuable and high priced items were the costumes and not the pictures.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Ivy thanks. ^^ so if many of the items were not signed. What would be the benefit to someone to fake Michael's signature on a piece, since unsigned items were sold as well. Is it only that the signature would increase the value or it would show that Michael gave it to a specific person.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

It seems now that some of the items from this auction may have authentic signatures and some do not. Does anyone think that Bush had several items that were worn/belong to Michael, but they were not signed, so someone signed them to increase the value?

None of the items in the Collection of Tompkins & Bush look like previous known autographs of Michael Jackson. They do however look to be in the same hand of Michael Bush though.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Ivy thanks. ^^ so if many of the items were not signed. What would be the benefit to someone to fake Michael's signature on a piece, since unsigned items were sold as well. Is it only that the signature would increase the value or it would show that Michael gave it to a specific person.

Signatures increase the value.

Look to this for example the White House Jacket - not signed - sold for $144,000 , signed standee for $2,812.50 . Overall I think if we add the signed items that aren't clothing items we would see quarter of a million in revenues I guess. (I didn't add just a rough number). So that's the benefit of faking signatures, however as you can see still the main money items would be the clothes and not the signed pictures and so on.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^^Yeap I see what you mean. Would someone be so bold as to sign several pieces though? I mean to sign 1 or 2 pieces, but not several?

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Not all items were signed. Actually many of the signature pieces that Lady Gaga collected was unsigned. There were a lot of signed pictures and so on and they sold for on the average $400 - $500. The main valuable and high priced items were the costumes and not the pictures.

I just counted all the signed items in the Tompkins & Bush part of the auction and I counted just under 300 lots signed out of 465 lots.
Here are the auction results and see how SIGNED is just about in every item listed. Also very few items sold for under $500.

http://www.juliensauctions.com/auctions/2012/tompkins-and-bush/results.html

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^^Yeap I see what you mean. Would someone be so bold as to sign several pieces though? I mean to sign 1 or 2 pieces, but not several?

are we talking about greed or logic?

Greed would have no boundaries, logic would say "no need" as the clothing items bring the most money anyway.

I guess everyone is to make their own determination based on greed or logic.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^^Yeap I see what you mean. Would someone be so bold as to sign several pieces though? I mean to sign 1 or 2 pieces, but not several?

Evidently, yes.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I just counted all the signed items in the Tompkins & Bush part of the auction and I counted just under 300 lots signed out of 465 lots.
Here are the auction results and see how SIGNED is just about in every item listed. Also very few items sold for under $500.

http://www.juliensauctions.com/auctions/2012/tompkins-and-bush/results.html

I think you need to separate the clothing items from the rest. for example yes the scream shoes were signed but it would have sold at a high price without any signatures. so I would be a lot more interested in the number of signed merchandise etc - such as signed photographs, standee, plush toys and so on. As the only and main reason they were sold was due to the autographs.

Also those prices show the markup - payment to Juliens - ranging from 20% minimum to 28% maximum. So for example an item listed to be sold for $600 something is actually sold for $500.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I would like to know if the signature on the item I bought is genuine. I have no clue how though. I already paid too.

Do your due diligence and research. Do an image search on Michael Jackson legal documents, check your sig against known, authentic, MJ signatures. Pay the $15.00 and get a professional autograph authenticator to view your scans, photos, etc. to give you an unbiased opinion. Then if you are certain it is real or not. You either contact Julien's or just cherish your prized possession. Good luck!

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Pay the $15.00 and get a professional autograph authenticator to view your scans, photos, etc. to give you an unbiased opinion.

FYI - That's a quick opinion that they do not backup for certain. An actual written report would require you to send the actual item to the authenticatior and pay hundred dollars or more.

actually from Julien's terms

Julien's warrants the "Attribution", as defined above and subject to the exclusions listed below, of a lot for a period of five years from the date of sale and only to the original purchaser on record at the auction. If it is determined to our satisfaction that the "Attribution" is incorrect, the sale will be rescinded if the lot is returned to the Julien's Auctions warehouse facility in the same condition in which it was at the time of sale. In order to satisfy Julien's that the "Attribution" of a lot is indeed incorrect we reserve the right to require the purchaser to obtain, at the purchaser's expense, the opinion of two experts in the field, mutually acceptable to Julien's and the purchaser, before we agree to rescind the sale under the warranty. This warranty is not assignable and applies only to the original purchaser on record with Julien's. This warranty does not transfer to any subsequent owners of any purchased property (this includes without limitation, heirs, successors, beneficiaries or assigns).

so you can see that it's possible for Julien's to require two expert reports coming from people they agree upon. Getting an opinion would cost $100 + shipping costs per expert.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I think you need to separate the clothing items from the rest. for example yes the scream shoes were signed but it would have sold at a high price without any signatures.

But does allegedly faking an autograph on a piece of paper give you a free pass as opposed to faking an autograph on a piece of clothing? To me the intent is the same. Actually I feel the reason all those papers and photos are signed were to get more money, because realistically, Julien's would not have taken them without an MJ signature. Those paper items or non-clothing items made Mr. Bush easily another half-millions to 1 million. I mean the standee sold for almost $3000 and these non-clothing signatures (below) sold for almost $13000 and the signatures don't even look like Michael's and are all over the place, sideways, reckless, not common for Michael.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

FYI - That's a quick opinion that they do not backup for certain. An actual written report would require you to send the actual item to the authenticatior and pay hundred dollars or more.

actually from Julien's terms

Julien's warrants the "Attribution", as defined above and subject to the exclusions listed below, of a lot for a period of five years from the date of sale and only to the original purchaser on record at the auction. If it is determined to our satisfaction that the "Attribution" is incorrect, the sale will be rescinded if the lot is returned to the Julien's Auctions warehouse facility in the same condition in which it was at the time of sale. In order to satisfy Julien's that the "Attribution" of a lot is indeed incorrect we reserve the right to require the purchaser to obtain, at the purchaser's expense, the opinion of two experts in the field, mutually acceptable to Julien's and the purchaser, before we agree to rescind the sale under the warranty. This warranty is not assignable and applies only to the original purchaser on record with Julien's. This warranty does not transfer to any subsequent owners of any purchased property (this includes without limitation, heirs, successors, beneficiaries or assigns).

so you can see that it's possible for Julien's to require two expert reports coming from people they agree upon. Getting an opinion would cost $100 + shipping costs per expert.

It is what it is. Fraud, and proving it, is expensive and time consuming, and it is a shame that we cannot trust items that the biggest auctioneer of MJ products is shoveling out to fans to buy.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

But does allegedly faking an autograph on a piece of paper give you a free pass as opposed to faking an autograph on a piece of clothing?

of course not but you are missing my point. I'm saying it's a lot more easier to demonstrate fraud on a picture.

Let me explain what I mean.

Look to the standee for example. What is the value of the standee? $30 in average, it's commonly available item. How much did it sold for? over $2,000 . why did it sold for over $2000 when the value is at best $30? The autograph. Here you can clearly show the effect of the autograph on the final price.

Now let's look for example signed scream shoes. It sold for $31,250. However can you demonstrate the effect of the autographs on it? You can't. It could have sold at the same price just because Michael wore it and the autograph might have no effect on the final price.

 

[Rhilo]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^^Yeap I see what you mean. Would someone be so bold as to sign several pieces though? I mean to sign 1 or 2 pieces, but not several?

Yeah why not... I guess? If MB did forge some of the signatures, it's because he knew people will not question or doubt his items because of his longtime professional acquaintance with Michael. He could get away with it- the auction house or potential buyers will not demand photo evidence or authentication as with unknown sellers, because he was Michael's designer for XX number of years, and it's reasonable for them to believe the items are genuine upfront.

Even now some of us are finding the possibility of MB forging signatures unbelievable, because...WTF? It's not something we expect of someone who knew Michael for so long, and seemed genuine with no questionable behaviour to date. It's pretty hard to grasp, like et tu Michael Bush?

 

[Rhilo]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Evidently, yes.

And evidently stupid too. Signing something that is dated 2009? C'mon!

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I think a lot of people have not been open minded about these signatures because of one particular vocal messenger. Many fans have been discussing these autographs and researching the provenance of the autographs outside of this other person. I did my own research. I asked Michael Bush directly in person at Julien's about these autographs. This standee has the same autograph that we have been discussing, and for which I feel are NOT Michael Jackson's, for almost 1 month. So if this autograph could not have happened, then the other ones should be suspect as well.

I would love for this standee to be legit, but Bravado's quick response, previous testimony and my other readings and research, is clear to me that it is NOT possible to have been signed by Michael Jackson.

I agree with you completely-this whole "forgery" thing is just breaking my heart-there are so FEW people around Michael that I feel were totally devoted and loyal-and Mr. Bush was on the top of my list-I do NOT want this to be a forgery.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

And evidently stupid too. Signing something that is dated 2009? C'mon!

Yes, he erred here, and Juliens did not do a proper authentication of the items, instead believing to trust their cosigner implicitly.

I am glad that it was not caught prior to the auction and pulled because we would be none the wiser, but many of us felt the signatures were forgeries, but this just confirms what we knew all along and gives it more credence, plus Bravado confirmed NOT manufactured prior to June 25, 2009.

 

[loveforever]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

And evidently stupid too. Signing something that is dated 2009? C'mon!

the picture is from Michael's bad era. it's not unusual for people to not think about the publishing date of it. Who would think a picture can be traced of the print time? hundred secrets and a mere carelessness.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

the picture is from Michael's bad era. it's not unusual for people to not think about the publishing date of it. Who would think a picture can be traced of the print time? hundred secrets and a mere carelessness.

This was supposed to be stuff Michael Jackson gave to Bush or stuff Bush said he had sitting around his house, under the bed, etc., in this auction.

 

[myosotis]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

But does allegedly faking an autograph on a piece of paper give you a free pass as opposed to faking an autograph on a piece of clothing? To me the intent is the same. Actually I feel the reason all those papers and photos are signed were to get more money, because realistically, Julien's would not have taken them without an MJ signature. Those paper items or non-clothing items made Mr. Bush easily another half-millions to 1 million. I mean the standee sold for almost $3000 and these non-clothing signatures (below) sold for almost $13000 and the signatures don't even look like Michael's and are all over the place, sideways, reckless, not common for Michael.

I agree. I've seen many signed photos in auctions and posted by fans online, but it is rare to find any where part of the signature goes over Michael's face. There might be the occasional stray 'swoop' that touches his chin or cheek, but not so much whole letters going right across. He knew his fans wanted to see his face, as well as his signature. There are 3 in this group of 9 where the signature crosses the face, and 3 more where it closely touches.

Michael was also very respectful of his designer's work, and did not sign across the main part of their designs. I have not managed to find any other designs outside this auction, where the design was signed across to the extent that it was more prominent than the design.

http://[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/507/mjsignedtedshellcostume.jpg/][/URL]



http://[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/mjsignedtedshellcostume.jpg/][/URL]

http://[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/24/lot840onpapersignedtomp.png/][/URL]