"King Of Style" roundtable on Sunday, 08/06/23

[Smooth72]

How’s that Thriller 40 doc coming John boy lol

 

[SmoothGangsta]

You'd think they'd be able to do one thing without a million errors and lots of waffling lol.

 

[zinniabooklover]

You'd think they'd be able to do one thing without a million errors and lots of waffling lol.

Especially something that was less than 25 mins.

 

[staywild23]

I enjoy the concept of this and I think it could be a helpful introduction to new fans who are maybe not that aware of Michael's influence on fashion. Also, in general, I appreciate anything that praises Michael and emphasizes his genius. I also like the idea of multiple episodes being released. That being said...

This was TOTAL fluff. And that saddens me. I saw a number of issues with it.

1) What is the intended format of this show? Is this the first episode of a "season" of episodes? If so, when will the next episode air, and how will it be structured? If this information was included somewhere, I definitely missed it.

2) Wtf was with the editing? It was like whiplash with a constant shifting of focus and no cohesive structure throughout. It drove me a little nuts. Also, why mention the Bad era and then use HWT footage? Just one example of many where they used an odd video choice for the topic. But my biggest issue was by far just the total lack of topical structure. This absolutely felt like a much longer round table edited down to soundbites. But to what end? It would make more sense, I guess, if this was the first "introductory" episode, and then each week we would have a "new" episode focusing on a particular time period. It would also explain the whiplash.

3) Something about it just felt...off? Idk. Maybe, phony? I can't explain it really. I just got a weird vibe from the whole thing. It was just really lacking in authenticity to me. Perhaps because it was so poorly and overly edited. But it kind of reminded me, stylistically, of one of Branca's TikTok's only much longer. Or, you know, like one of those shows airing on the TV Guide channel lol. idk I really can't put my finger on what felt so off to me about it. But it almost felt, at times, like they were talking about Michael more as an idea than as a person. Considering multiple people there knew him for a long time and knew him well, I'm just confused as to why this is the vibe I'm getting. You wouldn't think so. I have read King of Style and I thought it was phenomenal. It both humanizes Michael and emphasizes his staggering genius. Shouldn't a round table of the same name do that?

So those are my chief issues with it. I will say, I think it's great that there are some "soundbite" kind of moments. I've already seen a clip go viral in the BTS fandom on Twitter So that's kind of cool. But I prefer an authentic, honorary energy over a "soundbite" energy any day, no matter how positive the publicity might be.

Still, I didn't HATE it. Like I said, I enjoy anything that celebrates Michael. I didn't learn anything new, but that's happening less and less these days anyway lol.

 

[zinniabooklover]

[...] Still, I didn't HATE it. [...]

You're a bigger person than me, then. I def hated it.

I enjoy the concept of this and I think it could be a helpful introduction to new fans who are maybe not that aware of Michael's influence on fashion. Also, in general, I appreciate anything that praises Michael and emphasizes his genius. I also like the idea of multiple episodes being released.

All of this is what I thought it might be. And I was totally up for that.

This was TOTAL fluff. And that saddens me. I saw a number of issues with it.

Fluff is a very kind word to use. I thought it was sh*t.

1) What is the intended format of this show? Is this the first episode of a "season" of episodes? If so, when will the next episode air, and how will it be structured? If this information was included somewhere, I definitely missed it.

You didn't miss anything. The info just wasn't there. I would absolutely love to know what the intended format was. Do they even know themselves? I'm honestly not sure.

2) Wtf was with the editing?

It was sh*t.

It was like whiplash with a constant shifting of focus and no cohesive structure throughout. It drove me a little nuts. Also, why mention the Bad era and then use HWT footage? Just one example of many where they used an odd video choice for the topic. But my biggest issue was by far just the total lack of topical structure. This absolutely felt like a much longer round table edited down to soundbites.

That is exactly what it felt like and it was so jarring. And weird. And boring. And horribly ineffective.

3) Something about it just felt...off? Idk. Maybe, phony? I can't explain it really. I just got a weird vibe from the whole thing.

Exactly. It was quite unsettling.

It was just really lacking in authenticity to me. Perhaps because it was so poorly and overly edited. But it kind of reminded me, stylistically, of one of Branca's TikTok's only much longer. Or, you know, like one of those shows airing on the TV Guide channel lol. idk I really can't put my finger on what felt so off to me about it. But it almost felt, at times, like they were talking about Michael more as an idea than as a person.

@SmoothGangsta made the same point a few months back and I had never thought of it like that until he said it and then it was a real lightbulb moment exploding in my head. 'Oh, that's what those weird thoughts in my head are all about'. Michael as an idea, not as a person, I'm sure that is what is going on.

Considering multiple people there knew him for a long time and knew him well, I'm just confused as to why this is the vibe I'm getting. You wouldn't think so. I have read King of Style and I thought it was phenomenal. It both humanizes Michael and emphasizes his staggering genius. Shouldn't a round table of the same name do that?

This is one of the reasons I was so disappointed. The book sounds pretty good. I've seen lots of praise for it. And yet this weird product was so ... god, I don't even know. No real connection to the book.

So those are my chief issues with it. I will say, I think it's great that there are some "soundbite" kind of moments. I've already seen a clip go viral in the BTS fandom on Twitter So that's kind of cool. But I prefer an authentic, honorary energy over a "soundbite" energy any day, no matter how positive the publicity might be.

Fair enough but I'm still annoyed. Making stupid comments - like trying to suggest that Michael is responsible for plain white t-shirts becoming a fashion staple - doesn't help Michael and his legacy so that's just irritating.

 

[Amaya]

I just watched it. The editing is easily the worst thing about it. They seemed to get started on one topic and then jump to another. Like, they started talking about HIStory era (or was it Dangerous era?) and then suddenly started talking about the Billie Jean jacket from Motown 25, and then they suddenly started talking about how he like 16th century designs/Baroque? It really was all over the place, moved too damn fast and was disorganized. The canned applause when it was very obvious that the crowd was not applauding for most of the show was also cringe.

The montage over the end credits makes me wonder if these have all already been filmed/edited and if so, I worry about the next few episodes. Oy...

Having said that, I did like hearing from Michael Bush and Rushka Bergman. They're really the only ones I want to hear talking about this sort of thing. I actually recently rediscovered an older article/interview with Rushka about her time with Michael; it sounded like her and Michael really cared about each other and it's a shame they didn't get to work together longer due to... obvious reasons.

Branca's comment about how they had to use Russian cargo planes to haul around the HIStory tour stuff due to how large the tour set pieces were (American cargo planes were too small to hold them), and then pay an assload of money to obtain permission to even land the planes due to needing an extra long runway to land them in the first place was... random, but also oddly fascinating to me. Some of his comments were okay but him botching the Fred Astaire movie title was a huge oof.

The fact they completely ignored the Dangerous era (as in not even talk about Dangerous) and referred to it as the grunge era but MJ wanted it rougher, pisses me off. The continued disrespect for Dangerous is mind boggling.

I think they used "grunge era" to define the 1990's decade in general, not in terms of a "Michael era". But yeah, them skimming over Dangerous was pretty WTF.

They just seemed to grasp randomly at different items of clothing he wore and try to make false equivalences. 'Oh, the white shirt... you see white shirts now at job interviews".

This line was not said in the video at all. Or are you just coming up with an example/joke?

 

[8701girl]

It was fluff to me. I am not sure what the plan is for future episodes but they really barely grazed the surface of Michael's influence in fashion and it some ways the whole thing felt a bit contrived, even down to the fake, overdubbed crowd applause. They rushed through eras and didn't seem to make any points that the average person wouldn't know. I'd buy a copy of King of Style if it is re-released and I will watch the next episode, but I am giving episode one a 5/10. The host chick is a bit insufferable too.

There was a ''king of style'' book????

 

[8701girl]

How’s that Thriller 40 doc coming John boy lol

That was my first thought when i saw this snippet for this on twitter

 

[zinniabooklover]

There was a ''king of style'' book????

Published in 2012.

 

[8701girl]

Published in 2012.

Oh yeh thats right i need to get this book

 

[Hurley509]

I just feel like they glossed over things too much and like when they zoned in they had nothing of use to say. It was like they were rushed and had to think on the spot and it feels like theyre pretending to have a conversation rather than actually having one. I certainly hope the Thriller documentary is nothing like this.

 

[8701girl]

I just feel like they glossed over things too much and like when they zoned in they had nothing of use to say. It was like they were rushed and had to think on the spot and it feels like theyre pretending to have a conversation rather than actually having one. I certainly hope the Thriller documentary is nothing like this.

With the way the estate are going i reckon this is how thriller 40 documentary will be like

 

[Fuzball]

This felt like the same person who wrote the T40 blurbs did the editing of this roundtable.

 

[DanGerouS-]

i want new music. why do we get other stupid useless stuff. ALWAYS.

it's unbelievable.

ahye, somebody please throw Branca out the window. ~.~

 

[wendijane]

i want new music. why do we get other stupid useless stuff. ALWAYS.

it's unbelievable.

ahye, somebody please throw Branca out the window. ~.~

if you throw the big guy out the window you are sure to be in a worse situation , so just ignore him and he might come through soon.

 

[wendijane]

Branca's comment about how they had to use Russian cargo planes to haul around the HIStory tour stuff and then pay an assload of money to obtain permission to even land the planes was... random, but also oddly fascinating to me. Some of his comments were okay but him botching the Fred Astaire movie title was a huge oof.

mmm ..i saw that as so political straight away,but can mere mortals ever know, really ?

 

[8701girl]

if you throw the big guy out the window you are sure to be in a worse situation , so just ignore him and he might come through soon.

no i agree he needs to be out hes not doing anything really good for michael's legacy

 

[ZeconMusic]

I like how the estate obviously didn’t give whoever they hired to edit this any of their own footage to use, so they instead had to turn to YouTube rips… including rips of leaked material from an unreleased estate project. You really couldn’t make this shit up

 

[8701girl]

I like how the estate obviously didn’t give whoever they hired to edit this any of their own footage to use, so they instead had to turn to YouTube rips… including rips of leaked material from an unreleased estate project. You really couldn’t make this shit up

BWHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

 

[staywild23]

You're a bigger person than me, then. I def hated it.

that is completely fair and I support it!

Fluff is a very kind word to use. I thought it was sh*t.

See above lol

@SmoothGangsta made the same point a few months back and I had never thought of it like that until he said it and then it was a real lightbulb moment exploding in my head. 'Oh, that's what those weird thoughts in my head are all about'. Michael as an idea, not as a person, I'm sure that is what is going on.

Oh wow! I didn't see that, but I am glad to see I'm not alone in feeling this way. Obviously I am not, I mean. But that is the only real way I can describe it. Treating him like an abstract figure. Like a character. Michael is obviously larger than life and not everyone sees him as JUST a person. I struggle with that from a fan perspective, constantly elevating him. However, this doesn't feel like elevation, it feels more like reduction. And THAT is the problem to me.

The book sounds pretty good. I've seen lots of praise for it. And yet this weird product was so ... god, I don't even know. No real connection to the book.

The book is fantastic. I got it as a gift and I read it all in one sitting. I couldn't stop. The photos are gorgeous and the stories are wonderful. I felt like it cemented my understanding of Michael, while also enriching it. I also was very inspired afterward.

Shouldn't a roundtable of the same name have at least a similar effect?

Fair enough but I'm still annoyed. Making stupid comments - like trying to suggest that Michael is responsible for plain white t-shirts becoming a fashion staple - doesn't help Michael and his legacy so that's just irritating.

Yeah, I could't agree more. He made enough of an impact without exaggerating at best, or fabricating at worst. C'mon. Do better.

 

[staywild23]

@8701girl your signature photo is a brutal and glorious distraction

 

[bluemoon7]

I need the whole roundtable. They cut it bad and in real weird places, and just touched a bit on every topic. There must be a long/normal version, ... Also, I don´t think they invited all these guests and then just do a 25 minute show.

 

[bluemoon7]

The only thing round in this roundtable was the table itself lol.

 

[bluemoon7]

The fact they completely ignored the Dangerous era (as in not even talk about Dangerous) and referred to it as the grunge era but MJ wanted it rougher, pisses me off. The continued disrespect for Dangerous is mind boggling.

THIS! My mouth hung open in disbelief and almost hysteric laughter when they talked about Michael and his grunge fashion sense ... and then showed the EARTH SONG short film. Like, is this a joke?

 

[zinniabooklover]

THIS! My mouth hung open in disbelief and almost hysteric laughter when they talked about Michael and his grunge fashion sense ... and then showed the EARTH SONG short film. Like, is this a joke?

That was the point where I just lost the will to live bc of the sheer stupidity of it.

 

[Fuzball]

I need the whole roundtable. They cut it bad and in real weird places, and just touched a bit on every topic. There must be a long/normal version, ... Also, I don´t think they invited all these guests and then just do a 25 minute show.

wouldn't be surprised if it ends up edited into the T40 doc

 

[bluemoon7]

Published in 2012.

It is a gorgeous book, filled with stories and images. When Branca said it´s 2000 bucks on ebay rn, I spit my imaginary coffee.
Then he proceeded to tell Bush that we need a new edition/release. LMAOOO, was this roundtable just a blown up commercial for the ESTATE planning a rerelease of the book??? Because I do not think they had anaything to do with it initially. It is a book by Michael Bush.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I haven't seen the whole thing, but it seems... Fine? Like they're literally just talking. I'm not expecting some sort of all encompassing editorial, but I'm not particularly interested in the subject to begin with. If it's good press for Michael, I don't see the harm.

 

[bluemoon7]

I haven't seen the whole thing, but it seems... Fine? Like they're literally just talking. I'm not expecting some sort of all encompassing editorial, but I'm not particularly interested in the subject to begin with. If it's good press for Michael, I don't see the harm.

Well they got these people there who dressed and worked with Michael ... also, Prince Jackson and someone from the MJ Musical cast was there, ...

(From the youtube notes: Hosted and moderated by stylist and designer, June Ambrose. Panelists are John Branca, Co-Executor of The Michael Jackson Estate, Michael Bush, Michael Jackson's costume designer, Stylist and Contributing Editor to Vogue Italia, Rushka Bergman, and Supermodel and Fashion Expert, Kamini Chin Loy.)

and they did´nt actually say something new for those interested in the topic. It was also quite random imo.

 

[zinniabooklover]

I haven't seen the whole thing, but it seems... Fine?

It really isn't. Not for me, anyway. It looks cheaply done, it's incredibly badly edited and it's really incoherent.

Like they're literally just talking. I'm not expecting some sort of all encompassing editorial,

I don't think anyone was expecting that, necessarily. But definitely something better than this.

but I'm not particularly interested in the subject to begin with. If it's good press for Michael, I don't see the harm.

It would be good press for Michael if the product was good. Personally, I think it's extremely poor in quality.