lil mama ft chris brown, t pain video like scream

[wannabestartinsomthin21]

Everything is born out of something. Everything. Michael's style of dance is associated solely with him and is recognized as his own because it is. I don't know how you can get any more original then that. Every step under the sun has been done, in some form, every musical note has been played, in some form, every kind of word has been used, in some form, but it is how you put those steps, those notes, those words together, which is the seeds of creativety and originality. You can go back to the dawn of man and find some element of everything that has ever been done, but what makes a thing new is a person's ability to organize and execute it in a way never before seen. Glass existed before bullet proff glass. Does that make the inventor unoriginal because he used a foundation of some kind? Everyone does, even this guy you're talking about, because whether distantly influenced or not, he built his music from a foundation. Everyone has some form of a foundation, whether flimsy or not. It's what you do with it that signifies originality or not, not the unrealistic concept of creating something from nothing. That's impossible.

 

[J5master]

^ he virtually isn't. i think we've proved that point long after it didn't need to be proven in the first place LOL

Oh i thought thats what you are arguing...u keep pointing out originality verses authenticity....annnnd i thought you were saying that in regards to CB

 

[arXter]

Everything is born out of something. Everything.

Everyone does, even this guy you're talking about, because whether distantly influenced or not, he built his music from a foundation. Everyone has some form of a foundation, whether flimsy or not. It's what you do with it that signifies originality or not, not the unrealistic concept of creating something from nothing. That's impossible.

that's why i specifically used the terms "close" and "distant" to let you know that i am aware of the logical concept of evolution! but also that of relativity..

pioneering is being original in the sense that you'd have a hard time recognising any sort of predecessor or direct influence - leading people to call you an originator.

it's this relativity that is so important to distinguish pretty much anything in life.

your "everything is born out of something" argument can very well lead to calling Chris Brown original - or paradoxically diminishing all meaning of originality if it wasn't for relativity. so let's stick to it!

Michael's style of dance is associated solely with him and is recognized as his own because it is.

... even though he borrowed from lesser-known sources to showcase to his pop audience, as well as the recognisable JB and FA steps? (absolutely nothing wrong with it, mind you). but you have to keep these factors of mainstream exposure and actually being the best at executing the moves separate from being original.

Every step under the sun has been done, in some form, every musical note has been played, in some form, every kind of word has been used, in some form, but it is how you put those steps, those notes, those words together, which is the seeds of creativety and originality.

that's a false analogy

musical notes are core, fundamental units of a pre-existing template from which whole genres can be spawned. unlike...

the "steps" in dance which are full moves invented from a sequence of bodily movements that have to be thought up by someone e.g. the moonwalk.

if you want to analogise a musical note to dancing, it would be the equivalent to a slight muscle twitch!

the majority of Michael's steps are in fact those same recognisable sequences originating elsewhere. these moves have already been invented, and greatly attribute to the final style and recognition of the style - so i wouldn't dismiss them as a mere "basic foundation". it's like calling the most visionary piece of sampled music original and comparing full samples to their individual notes - the true foundation.

so it puts in perspective how i think originality can be distinguished - it's the pioneers like John Cage that used these incremental units to come up with something completely radical and defined a genre. as opposed to using phrases and familiar chords to bring us something that can be the most beautiful thing to experience but unoriginal - like his colleague and my hero Rachmaninoff.

 

[arXter]

Oh i thought thats what you are arguing...u keep pointing out originality verses authenticity....annnnd i thought you were saying that in regards to CB

no no.. i was saying anyone with eyes and ears should know he isn't authentic by not only the MJ moves, but the Usher, Timberlake, Omarion, Ginuwine, Ne-Yo et al - MJ moves lol as well as his frequent mention of Mike as the biggest inspiration.

so he's doing something that not only has been done 10-15 years ago, but what his contemporaries are doing. add a few krumping-reminiscent moves in there and you have the full backing of your record company. even if young kids don't have the full scope on Mike, they can look at Chris's rivals and see he isn't authentic.

i'm just saying.. many of these guys do something positive for Michael yet they're put down so quickly within the fan community. last incident was when Timberlake done a Billie Jean tribute or something in one of his concerts and many fans went berserk.

 

[wannabestartinsomthin21]

Let's look at the word "pioneer" here for a moment. The dictionary defines the word as: 9. to take part in the beginnings of; initiate: to pioneer an aid program. 10.to lead the way for (a group); guide.

Now, what I feel you are missing from my arguements is this. The way and the order in which Michael actually executes his regualar series of steps is a unique and original way which had never been seen before. The best examples of Michael's dance style can be found in the video for "The Way You Make Me Feel" and in live concert shows of his where there is little sign of choreographed routines.

The steps Michael uses to make up the majority of his style, in fact, cannot be traced back to any one person in particular, as most of the movement is based on regular human motot skills and natural direction of human limbs, torso and lower body, from ethnic dancing over many cultures, Indian, African, so on, from studying the movement of animals, and even some from martial arts. Bringing his knees in and out, kicking his leg out, kicking his leg up, freezing, then hitting it down with his hand, twisting his knee, spinning, thrusting his hips, executing many different types of poses, far too many to actually list and describe, from the way he sets his hands, feet, limbs, head and upper body. If you ever watch Michael, he constintly is pointing or moving in to directions which haven't been seen before from either him or anyone else, the types of poses are noval. Most of Michael's style isn't derived from specific steps or dancers, the majority of his style isn't based on any particular form of dance either, its simply based on human movement and the varying ways the human body can twist and mold itself. The way and the order in which he executes certain human movement makes for a never before seen form of dance. That fits the description of pioneering.

You can't compare Chris Brown or anyone else today to that because they haven't created a style unique to them. They haven't come up with a new, original way or order of executing their steps. Michael has. The way he moves is original, from the technical brilliance he brings innately, to the actual manner and order in which he executes, nobody else ever has looked like Michael when he dances, nobody.

 

[arXter]

Let's look at the word "pioneer" here for a moment. The dictionary defines the word as: 9. to take part in the beginnings of; initiate: to pioneer an aid program. 10.to lead the way for (a group); guide.

Now, what I feel you are missing from my arguements is this. The way and the order in which Michael actually executes his regualar series of steps is unique and original way which had never been seen before. The best examples of Michael's dance style can be found in the video for "The Way You Make Me Feel" and in live concert shows of his where there is little sign of choreographed routines.

yet the major influences on his moves have come directly from other sources. that is not called pioneering. you can argue "original" is a subjective term but pioneering is not what Michael has done - that's going too far imho lol

The steps Michael uses to make up the majority of his style, in fact, cannot be traced back to any one person in particular, as most of the movement is based on regular human motot skills and natural direction of human limbs, torso and lower body, from ethnic dancing over many cultures, Indian, African, so on, from studying the movement of animals, and from martial arts.

Most of Michael's style isn't derived from specific steps or dancers, the majority of his style isn't based on any particular form of dance either, its simply based on human movement and the varying way the human body can twist and mold itself. The way and the order in which he executes certain movement makes for a never before seen form of dance.

i agree on the wide variety of his influences and his natural movement but saying the majority of his style is not influenced by the likes of Brown, Astaire, Daniel etc. i again can't agree with. if not the majority then an extremely significant influence has come from direct sources, essential to his dancer status within the mainstream. that includes outside help on choreography that has brought us some of his extra extra memorable performances, in lack of better wording to not underestimate him.

You can't compare Chris Brown or anyone else today to that because they haven't created a style unique to them. They haven't come up with a new, original way or order of executing their steps. Michael has. The way he moves is original, from the technical brilliance he brings innately, to the actual manner and order in which he executes,

BINGO! we can agree on that i guess.. by the way he moves and executes his steps, no one has or i think ever will match him in what he does best. but in saying he's a pioneer or original as a dancer in general is where we'll have to agree to disagree because:

nobody else ever has looked like Michael when he dances, nobody.

no one else has looked so graceful and executed the moves the way he did but many have looked like Mike because he imitated their moves - but better. this is my point about originality vs. authenticity.

and again, he's the best there is the best there was and the best there ever will be. you don't have to be original to make such history and actually deserve it.

 

[wannabestartinsomthin21]

Alright, I guess we'll have to just disagree. Because what I'm trying to say is, the majority of Michael's steps didn't actually originate with Jeffery Daniels, Fred Astaire or James Brown. The majority of his steps are actaully basic motor movement in human beings with a twist put on it, kicking, moving your feet in and out, moving your arms out, side to side, moving your head up and down, back and forth, moving your torso side to side , that's all basic human motor movement. I've never seen Daniels, Astaire or Brown do the majority of poses that Michael executes in the way that he does. Kicking their leg out the way Michael does, twisting their knee, the spin Michael does, the in and out motion of Michael's knees and the way he combines that with certain poses with his upper body, those are all steps I've only ever seen Michael perform, originally, and while you can find steps that are similar in inital motion, since its all based on human motor machanics, Michael has put a flavor all his own on those basic motions, like kicking, hip thrusts, arms swings, etc... Again, there are only so many ways the human body can contort and twist itself. Like in writing, for example, there are only so many words in the english language and each word has been used, numerous times. What makes a unique writing style isn't the words being used, but how those words are strung together, and it is the same in dance. Michael isn't a dancer in any specific form. He isn't a jazz dancer, he isn't a tap dancer, he isn't a pantomimest, he isn't a popper or a locker, he isn't a tutter. He's just a dancer. If there is any dancer Michael's steps are most similar to, it is Bob Fosse, but even still, his steps are extremely different overall. And further, you don't seem to think that putting steps together in a unique was is unique, lol. So what can I tell you. Everyones dance style is formed off of something that came before. It is if you can find a new way of executing those steps and putting them together that creates a unique style, since every step has been done already in some fasion. But the way Michael puts them together, the way he moves overall, nobody looks like that and it is why, if you saw a sillouette of Michael dancing, you would recognize it as Michael Jackson. Because it is a unique way of dancing which he created. If you can't say Michael has an original dance style, then you can't say anyone has an original dance style, since everyone, including Jeffery Daniles, James Brown and Fred Astaire have elements of dance forms in their styles created before they ever came along, whether from classical dance, tap, pantomime, jazz, etc...