Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson (Excerpts on page 19)

[HIStory]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

That's the exact point I've be trying to point out on this thread. But some just can't get the distinction right in their heads. MJ was primarily a lyricist on most of post 80's tracks, why producers came up with the chords.

Sigh. Not this again. I don't know why you are so hell bent on taking musical writing credits from MJ.
Was he just the lyricist on Who Is It, Will You Be There, Give In To Me, Dangerous, TDCAU, Earth Song, Heal The World, Black or White, Money, Morphine etc. etc? Who the heck then wrote those songs?

And even where he did not write the chords for a song but he did write the melody, melody is part of the MUSIC. What else melody would be? Lyrics? It is certainly a weird concept that a melody of a song is not music. :smilerolleyes:

melody
?m?l?di

noun
noun: melody; plural noun: melodies



a sequence of single notes that is musically satisfying; a tune.

"he picked out an intricate melody on his guitar"
synonyms: tune, music, air, strain, theme, subject, line, part, song, refrain, jingle, piece "he's playing the melody from that new film"

• the aspect of musical composition concerned with the arrangement of single notes to form a satisfying sequence.
  
  "her great gift was for melody"
• the principal part in harmonized music.
  
  "we have the melody and bass of a song composed by Strozzi"

Also check out the synonyms with melody. Music is one synonym to it. So where does this idea come from that all of a sudden melody is not a part of the music and that it just means the lyrics? I start to feel like in the twilight zone.

Bernie Taupin was a poet and a lyricist. Period. He wasn't a musician, he didn't write the melody of a song, Elton John did.
MJ wrote the melody for most of his songs, even the ones where he got a musical base (eg. chords) from others.

Like said above we can say a song consists of three parts: melody, a musical background (such as chords) and lyrics. The former two are the MUSIC. So if MJ wrote the melody of a song that means he was a big part of writing the MUSIC. He wasn't just a lyricist. A song is nothing without the melody. When you sing along a song, you usually sing along with the melody of the song, not the chords in the background.

Just to show how off it is to make MJ out to be just some lyricist like Bernie Taupin. This is how Elton John and Taupin work together:

The writing style that Elton John and Bernie Taupin use involves Taupin writing the lyrics on his own, and John then putting them to music, with the two never in the same room during the process. Taupin would write a set of lyrics, then mail them to John, wherever he was in the world, who would then lay down the music, arrange it, and record.[SUP][145][/SUP]

Tauping only writes lyrics. He doesn't write a melody. He just writes a poem basically. The music - including the melody - is then written by John.

 

[Psychoniff]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

^Sorry, my bad.

 

[Augustino]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

The original writers' demo has been on Youtube for years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MPv6f-zYys

MJ added nothing to it, from a writing point of view.

Except it's not the same vocal melody at all!

Listen to the chorus , Michael's version has three identical notes for "whatever" while the original has two.
"she's consumed with everything that's been going on" is different too
so are "be she doesn't hear" and "preoccupied she's afraid Afraid what they've been doing's not right" and "so he prays"
"it's not the end of the world".
The third chorus is totally different.

Michael's is much better, whether it was him who changed notes or Riley
it's sure is not the same as the original demo.

The whole Invincible album is not an example of MJ NOT crediting the real writers, it's an example of MJ taking credit for writing songs when he didn't.

Hard to see how he didn't give credit to the writers when the writers' names are right there.
It's one thing to have your name first it's another not to credit the writers at all.
Anyway, the demo melody sucks.
Michael's version is great.
Same with This is it. The Anka melody sucked, the Michael version was cool.

And putting his name first in the list means people still think MJ wrote Whatever Happens or Don't Walk Away.

But why did Riley want credit for both too, and two more? Why those four?

If he adds his name as a writer -- and at the TOP of the list, no less -- when he did nothing or basically nothing in terms of the writing of the particular song, it annoys me and I call him out on it.

Call him out for what? You sound like the ones who trash Michael for "outbidding" Paul.
If he put his name first without an agreement with the writers then it would be dishonest.
If he does it with the writer's full consent it's called business and there is nothing dishonest about it.
Nobody forced those writers to give their song to Michael after all.
The deal was if you want your song on my album we shared the credit. Don't like it? Fine, then we won't use your song.
Why do you think they agreed to let Michael and Riley take credit? They sure didn't come lose on the deal.

Meanwhile:

 

[Tygger]

As for the whole Scream issue, Janet seemed to be very bitter about Michael in the mid-late nineties. In interviews she would get visibly irritated at just the mention of his name. Whether Michael turned down her vocals on the song or not I do not know, but I think it's safe to say that Jimmy Jam would side with Janet over Michael on any issue like this, for obvious reasons. And when you factor into account the very obvious chip Janet had on her shoulder about Michael back then, the validity of the story starts to come into question.

Meanwhile:

MattyJam, I am not reposting your quote from rudeness. I am reposting your quote to show what Michael sang about. If it is in print, some readers will believe it. In this instance, Michael and Janet’s personal history (that the public does not know) was twisted to match the tale of this author.

I have not heard or read Jam stating unkind words about Janet or any of her siblings. Ever.

If this tale can be stretched, it will be difficult for readers to know how many other tales are untrue.

Readers beware.

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Let's say that someone comes up with a song in the key of A minor, and then someone else on piano plays chords within the A minor scale, then all that person was doing was just playing in tune to what the melody was. They didn't come up with anything new themselves. But if they added some new melodies onto the piano, then yes, that person would have added something new to the song.

and, btw chords are something that have already been discovered. So the person adding chords to a song isn't adding anything new, because that chord was already discovered many, many years ago.

Thank you-that really helped me. I have listened to both depositions that Michael gave in Mexico and Colorado(?) repeatedly because it's fascinating to me to hear him talk about writing music-especially since he gives the most glorious examples when he's trying to describe what he's talking about.

In one of them he talks about the bass line for Billie Jean and beat boxes it-and then he starts singing the melody OVER it. And that's what I was kinda assuming that people like Teddy Riley or whoever were doing when they say they gave Michael a track and he would come back with the melodies/harmonies and arrangements-I think another good example of Michael singing an arrangement/production of a song is that new Paul McCartney remix of "Say-Say-Say" where you hear Michael scatting the last 3 or 4 minutes of the song-which is pretty indistinguishable from the real song. (Pretty amazing to me).

I found this on YouTube and this is kinda what I was picturing somebody might be doing when they were creating a song for Michael-I could be totally dead wrong-but about 4 minutes in you can hear this backing track they created on a computer that the description says you can use for backing when you're trying to compose a song.

Am I on the right track with this-with the collaborators' contribution? (No pun intended).

^Sorry, my bad.

Thanks, Pyschoniff-I was about to write you that Elton does the melodies and Taupin does the lyrics-they're a songwriting team, where Michael did BOTH and wasn't just a lyricist. But Respect explained it very well.

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

I have not heard or read Jam stating unkind words about Janet or any of her siblings. Ever.

If this tale can be stretched, it will be difficult for readers to know how many other tales are untrue.

Readers beware.

I think that is why everybody was disputing the validity of the book from the get-go-NOT that it didn't portray Michael as a little saint, not that it showed him getting mad or angry in the studio, but the fact that these new stories are 180 degrees opposite than anything these very same collaborators have been saying for years and years and years.

 

[SarahJ]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

From Smallcombe's facebook page on Oct. 25th he says the publication date has been delayed and he's waiting for a new publication date to be announced. Amazon and other sites show it as out of stock or unavailable. Interesting.

I've been on his site and from what I can see it appears, I could be wrong but it appears to be a slightly higher version of Taraborelli. Along those lines.
What someone says in an interview, what they think will get published and what actually gets published can be very different things.

 

[Gaz]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

@nesboy43 I have one thing to say to you - "F@%K OFF....." #yournotwanted #idiot

Better still go back to that pointless we all hate MJJC ghost board you all love.

Sorry guys carry on

**Edited to better represent my feelings**

 

[hyperbolical]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Personally I don't mind the books that have come out as long as they are factual and not gross distortions. After all I assume everyone comes to these message boards to learn more about MJ and I think these books gives us insight. I do not mind that one person expresses his opinion of the state of things at one point in Michael's career it humanizes him in my opinion. I was beginning to wonder if he was impossibly saint like.

Real Question: Has anyone found an MJ message board where people do not attack each other or have an agenda and are able to discuss aspects of Michael and his career openly? Would you consider this such a board? I am new here. All the sites I have visited so far are just impossible, IMO, unless I just use them for info and photos.

 

[Gaz]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Not sure if you guys are aware of the below, but got the the below on email a couple of weeks ago.

Hi MJJ Community,


I hope you're well.


In regards to the Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson by Mike Smallcombe we have had to temporarily remove the book from publication.


We would request that you please do not proceed with any review or feature on this title at this moment in time no longer for sale. If this changes, we will let you know immediately together with the book's new publication date.


Thank you kindly for your understanding. And I will be back in touch in due course with an update on this title.


Very best,


Kate

 

[Psychoniff]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

personally i don't mind the books that have come out as long as they are factual and not gross distortions. After all i assume everyone comes to these message boards to learn more about mj and i think these books gives us insight. I do not mind that one person expresses his opinion of the state of things at one point in michael's career it humanizes him in my opinion. I was beginning to wonder if he was impossibly saint like.

Real question: Has anyone found an mj message board where people do not attack each other or have an agenda and are able to discuss aspects of michael and his career openly? would you consider this such a board? i am new here. All the sites i have visited so far are just impossible, imo, unless i just use them for info and photos.

no way!!!

 

[Bubs]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

no way!!!

Yes way.

How disrespectful of you. You are provided a place where you can state your opinion of all things Michael, and now you say you are not able to do so:doh:
From where I'm standing you are saying plenty.



Ps, Gaz, earlier there was a review posted of this book, but if the book is not on sale, where the review came from and based on what?

 

[analogue]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Real Question: Has anyone found an MJ message board where people do not attack each other or have an agenda and are able to discuss aspects of Michael and his career openly? Would you consider this such a board? I am new here. All the sites I have visited so far are just impossible, IMO, unless I just use them for info and photos.

I would. People naturally disagree on things, but for the most part everyone is civil and respectful here.

 

[hyperbolical]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

I would. People naturally disagree on things, but for the most part everyone is civil and respectful here.

I am so glad to hear this. I was giving up hope!

Regarding the delayed publication date, does anyone else think that there might be a legal challenge to the publication? and who might it be from? perhaps someone signed a NDA to work with MJ and the Estate is getting involved to stop the book? If so, what motive would there be to stop the book?

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

I wouldn't think it would be the Estate since they haven't stopped any other bios, but I was also wondering what's behind the delay.

 

[Annita]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Yes way.

How disrespectful of you. You are provided a place where you can state your opinion of all things Michael, and now you say you are not able to do so:doh:
From where I'm standing you are saying plenty.

Ps, Gaz, earlier there was a review posted of this book, but if the book is not on sale, where the review came from and based on what?

Psychoniff said he/she did read the book. Was is avaiable for a short time?

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/136789-Making-Michael-Inside-the-Career-of-Michael-Jackson

 

[SoCav]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Let's say that someone comes up with a song in the key of A minor, and then someone else on piano plays chords within the A minor scale, then all that person was doing was just playing in tune to what the melody was. They didn't come up with anything new themselves. But if they added some new melodies onto the piano, then yes, that person would have added something new to the song.

and, btw chords are something that have already been discovered. So the person adding chords to a song isn't adding anything new, because that chord was already discovered many, many years ago.

I disagree with this. You seem to suggest that a melody automatically dictates which chords should be played over it, but that's not true. Nor is it dictated how the chord should be voiced and the progression strung together and played. And saying that adding chords to a song isn't anything new because chords were already discovered many years ago is not dissimilar from saying that adding a melody to a song isn't anything new because the notes that make up the melody were already discovered many years ago.

Except it's not the same vocal melody at all!

Listen to the chorus , Michael's version has three identical notes for "whatever" while the original has two.
"she's consumed with everything that's been going on" is different too
so are "be she doesn't hear" and "preoccupied she's afraid Afraid what they've been doing's not right" and "so he prays"
"it's not the end of the world".
The third chorus is totally different.

Michael's is much better, whether it was him who changed notes or Riley
it's sure is not the same as the original demo.

I don't know how you can say it is not at all the same vocal melody. From a songwriting perspective the differences between Michael's version and the writer's demo are absolutely minimal. Assigning writer's credit can be tricky nowadays given that in several genres production has become so important. But based on that demo there is imo no way Michael and Teddy should have gotten first and second credit for Whatever Happens. The entire skeleton of the song is already there, as well as several flourishes and touches that made it into the final version.

Do you also think Michael should have gotten a songwriting credit for Man in the Mirror or Human Nature?

Ps, Gaz, earlier there was a review posted of this book, but if the book is not on sale, where the review came from and based on what?

The book was for sale very briefly. Some people ordered it before it got pulled.

 

[Psychoniff]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Oh boy...the egos have landed. You know that time when you make a point, then by virtue of the other persons/people's actions rather than your own insight totally proves your original point.

 

[Psychoniff]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

I am so glad to hear this. I was giving up hope!

Regarding the delayed publication date, does anyone else think that there might be a legal challenge to the publication? and who might it be from? perhaps someone signed a NDA to work with MJ and the Estate is getting involved to stop the book? If so, what motive would there be to stop the book?

I'm just warning you not be unprepared. I've have threaded removed, I've been banned, trust me, you can't always speak your mind on hear.

 

[kreen]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

The author says on his FB page that the book will now come out in early 2016

 

[Gaz]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Hahahaaa!!!! Not that I've been there - (hell no, someone told me) but I'm finding it hilarious the only activity over at History Continues is them slagging us all off here at MJJC pmsl...... #utterjokeboard

NB: Sorry back on topic

 

[Bubs]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

I'm just warning you not be unprepared. I've have threaded removed, I've been banned, trust me, you can't always speak your mind on hear.

Don't you think that is a bit rich coming from you

"I've really had it with you brainless MJ fans attacking his family."

Yeah, thats you not wanting people to speaking their mind, different topic but all the same. I just leave it at that as I think you get it.

Ps, we are on forum where people have opinions for many things, and sometimes topic might get heated because difference of the opinions. It doesn't mean that if somebody doesn't agree with you that you cannot speak of your mind.



Anyways, what kind to forum is that all the people agree with everything - snoozefest?

 

[vernagold]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

I had ordered this book last month and was wondering why it still hadn't turned up.

I just hope it does eventually see the light of day and that if it does that it's not been altered too much.

 

[hyperbolical]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

maybe book was referring to this incident that i found on the internet, which is actually quite funny...
At one point Michael was angry at one of the producers on the project because he was treating everyone terribly. Rather than create a scene or fire the guy, Michael called him to his office/lounge and one of the security guys threw a pie in his face. No further action was needed . . . . .
http://en.michaeljackson.ru/in-the-recording-studio/

 

[Psychoniff]

SONGWRITING CONTROVERSIES

There were occasions when Michael did not credit musicians who helped him to write songs.

Making Michael cover [PH]

When Michael began recording the HIStory album in New York in early 1994, Stranger in Moscow was the first song he and his longtime collaborator, Brad Buxer, worked on. Buxer created the music, before playing it to Michael.

“When he heard my work on Stranger in Moscow, the strings, piano, drums and the beatboxing samples that make up the rhythmic backbone of the track, he literally shrieked with joy,” Buxer recalls.

Although Buxer is the co-writer of Stranger in Moscow, as he created the music, Michael would not credit him.

“That song, more than anything I’ve ever done with him, was a true collaboration to say the least,” Buxer revealed.

“It is absolutely my most important contribution to him. Of course I’m disappointed that I didn’t receive a songwriting credit on it, but Michael chose not to credit me; there is nothing I can do about it.”

Michael also attempted to take credit for a song singer R Kelly wrote for him during the HIStory sessions, You Are Not Alone.

When Michael’s team received the tape from Kelly they saw great potential in the song, but knew it needed more work. Michael re-produced the track and added a choir in the final portion, which he said gave it "a sense of climax and structure."

Kelly said Michael later proceeded to give himself a co-writer’s credit.

“Naturally that got me a little upset,” Kelly admitted, “but the minute I put a call in to Mike, he got right back to me.”

Kelly said that Michael told him it was a mistake, and the credits were amended.

When Michael composed his songs, he would sing the ideas he had in his head into a tape recorder, before bringing in musicians to replace his voice with instruments.

Together, they would create a demo composition of the song. But some who worked with Michael felt that having musicians execute his ideas was a form of cheating.

One musician, who worked with Michael for over 15 years, said: “The problem with Michael is that he would often have musical secretaries.

"He would sit down with a musician and have them play parts he had in his head. If a musician played a certain part, Michael would then say, ‘No, not like that’, and then when the musician played it differently, he would say, ‘Yeah like that, like that!’
"On the musician’s part, this would sometimes be classed as writing but Michael did not see it that way.”

Another musician, who also worked with Michael for over 15 years and also wished to remain nameless, shares a similar view.

“Sometimes what musicians would do for Michael would border on writing. Michael would sing a note to a musician, and he would play a chord, sometimes making writing decisions without getting credited for it.”

http://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/661536/Michael-Jackson-new-book-bubbles-chimp-janet

 

[analogue]

Re: Michael Jackson REFUSED to give credit for SIM and songs....

Bull shit. Michael always gave credit where credits due. As for Stranger In Moscow, MJ isn't hear anymore to give his side of the story

And songwriting credits can be tricky. Take the song Kiss by Prince for example. He wrote that song with just an acoustic guitar, and it was his band who took what he did on guitar and helped make it into the song people know today. But Prince still got 100% songwriting credit for it.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Michael Jackson REFUSED to give credit for SIM and songs....

How many times will you post this same thing Psychoniff? It's been discussed to death here already when this book was first released and since you were a very active participant in that thread you know that very well. http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/136789-Making-Michael-Inside-the-Career-of-Michael-Jackson/page13?highlight=smallcombe

 

[LindavG]

"He would sit down with a musician and have them play parts he had in his head. If a musician played a certain part, Michael would then say, ‘No, not like that’, and then when the musician played it differently, he would say, ‘Yeah like that, like that!’
"On the musician’s part, this would sometimes be classed as writing but Michael did not see it that way.”

Another musician, who also worked with Michael for over 15 years and also wished to remain nameless, shares a similar view.

“Sometimes what musicians would do for Michael would border on writing. Michael would sing a note to a musician, and he would play a chord, sometimes making writing decisions without getting credited for it.”

http://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/661536/Michael-Jackson-new-book-bubbles-chimp-janet

What nonsense is this? If the musician is literally playing what Michael tells him to, why should he get any writing credit for it? It doesn't work that way.

 

[Psychoniff]

Re: Michael Jackson REFUSED to give credit for SIM and songs....

LOL at the comments in this thread. So you guys just want to hear comments that fit you're narrative. You don't like to be challenged on the truth do you?

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

Re: Michael Jackson REFUSED to give credit for SIM and songs....

^I knew it had been already discussed but I didn't remember the thread title. It should be deleted then.

Creating piss off threads is getting old and tiring Psychoniff.