Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson (Excerpts on page 19)

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

the book is mostly positive

You concluded in your review that someone reading it will come away from it thinking less of MJ as an artist and as a person than before. That sounds very positive indeed. :smilerolleyes:
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

I haven't read the book but just because something negative is said about MJ doesn't mean it's a book "trashing MJ". I honestly don't see where people are getting that from. Not everything written about MJ needs to be positive. Not talking about this book but in general. Some people here really seem to think that the moment something isn't 100% positive that it's "a crap book" or "trashing MJ" or is somehow an attack on MJ as an artist, without having actually read the book themselves. I don't know what this book is like because I haven't read it, I might check it out at some point, and form my own opinion. As Nesboy put it, some people here don't seem to take criticism of MJ well, and just choose to relegate it to "slander" or "trashing" most of the time.
 
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Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

I think the only album where this claim about MJ giving himself credit for virtually nothing can come up is Invincible on a couple of songs such as Break of Dawn, Heaven Can Wait or Whatever Happens which were ready songs already on the demo. I honestly cannot see any basis to that claim up until Invincible. Let's see:


Dangerous

Jam - by all accounts he wrote the melody to the song and the lyrics, so what is wrong with MJ getting co-writing credit? Others are also given credit on it.

Why You Wanna Trip On Me - MJ is not given songwriting credit on this.

In The Closet - Teddy said it was very much Michael's song. We have also seen MJ's handwritten lyrics for this song. So it cannot be debated that he deserves songwriting credit on it. Teddy is given co-writing credit.

She Drives Me Wild - I don't know much about the background of this song, but IMO the lyrics are very much MJ and I think he probably wrote them at the very least. If that is the case then of course he should be given co-writing credit.

Remember The Time - the music is mainly Teddy's but they wrote the lyrics together. So nothing wrong with MJ getting co-writing credit again.

Can't Let Her Get Away - I don't know much about the background of this song. It is credited to MJ and Teddy.

Heal The World - A VERY MJ song. I don't think anyone would debate his writing credits here.

Black or White - The song is credited to him and Bill Bottrell who wrote the rap part. Again, I don't think there can any dispute about these credits.

Who Is It - A very MJ song again. This was one of the songs about which Brad said in a documentary in the 90s that MJ had it in his head and instructed him what to play. He did not claim a co-writing contribution here like he does with SIM.

Give In To Me - Credited to MJ and Bill Bottrell. There is studio audio about MJ telling him to play something and write a song together. They did and the song is duely credited to both of them.

Will You Be There - See Who Is It. Brad Buxer mentioned both of these songs when he talked about MJ having a song in his head.

Keep The Faith - The main credits are given to Siedah and Glen Ballard. On the third place MJ is given some credit too. I don't know what his contribution was, I have no information about this.

Gone Too Soon - Not credited to MJ.

Dangerous - MJ, Bottrell and Teddy are all credited. We have heard MJ's demo, we know he did co-write it and his contribution was significant.

HIStory

Scream - we know the music is mainly Jam and Lewis and the lyrics are MJ and Janet. They are all credited.

They Don't Care About Us - A very MJ song.

Stranger in Moscow - we have discussed it before.

This Time Around - Don't know much about this song (I dont really like it). The music probably came from the other writers, the lyrics seem to reflect on MJ's experiences at the time, so I can see him being a writer at least on the lyrics.

Earth Song - An MJ song, unless we want to take Deepak Chopra's claim seriously that he wrote it. LOL.

D.S.
Money - both songs are credited to MJ. I don't know much about the history of these songs. I think Money was written at around the same time as SIM while on tour. That's what I remember about it. MJ's blueprint on these songs is obvious.

YANA - Not credited to MJ although he could have claimed co-writing credit because he actually did contribute to it.

Childhood - I dont think there can be any debate about this.

Tabloid Junkie - credited to MJ and Jam and Lewis. Again, I cant see any debate about this one. If nothing else he probably wrote the lyrics.

History - detto.

2 Bad - Credited to four people. Again, MJ surely contributed at least to the lyrics.

Little Susie - Very MJ song.

Smile - Not credited to him.

BOTDF


All songs on this album have very trademark MJ lyrics and themes, so there can be no debate about his contribution IMO. Musically co-writers are credited on four of the five songs.

-----

So I cannot see this supposed rampant giving himself credit for songs he did not contribute to. Nowhere does the credit sound false or out of place, considering the musical and lyrical styles and themes of the songs. Except for maybe some borderline cases where you can say things like he maybe should have given co-credits to Brad on SIM. But again that happens in every artists' case. And for every SIM there is a YANA where MJ did not take the credit he could have.

The only claim in this regard can be made about some songs on Invincible IMO, where MJ became a bit tired maybe and did not contribute as much as before.
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

I haven't read the book but just because something negative is said about MJ doesn't mean it's a book "trashing MJ". I honestly don't see where people are getting that from. Not everything written about MJ needs to be positive.

And no one said that either. But forgive me for being sceptical about the intentions of this book because I have never heard these guys, MJ's collaborators, talk about MJ this way before and I have seen or read many interviews with them. It would be very strange if they started it now. They always talked about him with be greatest respect, both as an artist and as a person. They always acknowledged that he was fully in control creatively and that most often he had the full song in his head, down to detail, before he told the instrumentalists what to play. Many of his co-workers told that over and over again. And actually there are also stories about MJ giving credit to someone who did not feel he deserved it. Eg. Bill Bottrell said that about one of the songs on the Gearslutz forum that he felt MJ didn't have to give credit to him for that but he did which was nice. So how did we go from that to this that seems to give the impression that MJ was cheating his collaborators left and right, didn't really create anything on his albums but others created it for him, and on top of that was abusive to these poor collaborators? It's just very weird. Unless it is the review that blew things out of proportion for whatever reason. If not, then I suspect the author is the one who did that - only he knows for what reason. The last possibility is that MJ's collaborators changed their tunes compared to how they talked about him and his creativity and his creatve contributions before.

And this made me smile actually:

It seemed that in quite a few cases Mike treated his collaborators poorly. He would have people fly around to different states and make copies of all the multi tracks so he could record in different studios, yet in many cases he would be absent, sometimes for weeks at a time. A lot of money was wasted as these people would all be on payroll and put in expensive hotels. In some cases people would just head back home after waiting around for so long and Michael not showing up. Once he told an engineer "see you tomorrow", then was gone for two weeks on vacation without telling anyone.

How horrible indeed that these people were forced to wait for him in expensive hotels while being on his payroll! What a horrible person indeed that MJ was. Treating his collaborators like s***. LOL.
 
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Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

It seemed that in quite a few cases Mike treated his collaborators poorly.

Oh sure.
Like this poorly:

He was also really concerned about doing anything that would inadvertently upset anybody around him. Even though he was spending five thousand bucks a day on studio time, Michael left me this note one day on my desk. I kept it as a souvenir, and pull it out now and then if people ever question my story. It pretty much tells you everything you need to know about him as a person and an artist.

Inkpin.jpg


http://axecollectorblog.blogspot.hu/2007/10/my-brush-with-badness.html

Or this prooly:
Michael Jackson Skipped A Studio Session For Induction Into The Rock & Roll Hall Fame
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWzD269Mp60

Or this poorly:

It was a true honor to work with Michael Jackson Since I worked with him 100's of days, I got to know him.
It was a highlight of my career. It was amazing!
Michael was always polite, courteous, and respectful. Always.
What was the most surprising thing you learned about him, that didn't fit your pre-conception?
None. I had high expectations and he exceeded every one of them.

Brian Vibberts, worked with MJ 1994-1999
https://twitter.com/BrianVibberts/status/648584010172489728
https://twitter.com/BrianVibberts/status/648582650970509312
https://twitter.com/BrianVibberts/status/648350532952657920
https://twitter.com/BrianVibberts/status/648355150029983744
https://twitter.com/BrianVibberts/status/648641885670543361

Didn't Bruce Swedien said that Michael never showed up late in the studio?
Didn't he say that he was an amazing composer?
Oh yes he said it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIx2tg6bKnk&index=2&list=PLUNRNxfONfvUZjdGMXjyWbM4_SkFpV9tN



As for Jimmy Jam I don't buy that BS for a second.
Jam has been Janet's producer like forever and he sure may want to boost her while trashing Mike.
But his story doesn't make a freaking sense.
Did Michael want to turn down any of his other collaborators? Paul McCartney?
Mick Jagger? Freddie? That French chick on the French version of IJCSLY?
Siedah? Any of his brothers?
No.

But he would want to turn down Janet. Why would he do such a thing with her, of all people, when he never ever did any such thing with anyone else?
 
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Here are some extracts from an article from Brad Sundberg.

So who was Michael Jackson, and why did he have such a profound effect on my life? Not for a moment do I pretend to have been a close friend of his, or a confidant. Rather I worked for him and with him, and considered it an honor.

He was a consummate professional. If his vocals were scheduled for a noon downbeat, he was there at 10 am, with his vocal coach Seth, singing scales. Yes, scales. I would set up the mic, check the equipment, make coffee, and all the while he would sing scales for two hours.

I have watched him write many songs, and the process is amazing. I asked him where they came from, and he said they were gifts from God. He could hear the entire song in his head before we could get tape on the machines. He would sometimes sing the drums, bass, percussion, keyboards, etc., and we would later bring in musicians to replace his demo tracks.

Oh and here is the part about MJ not showing up:

This driving work ethic also had to escape from time to time. There were many days we would show up at the studio, only to find he had flown to Europe or Japan for a few days, and neglected to tell us. This sometimes meant an unscheduled few days off for us, which was awesome.

http://www.mjphotoscollectors.com/index.php?showtopic=231

They were not bitter about it at all. I am pretty sure any intelligent collaborator would understand that a star of MJ's caliber would have other things to do from time to time. So if this is what was turned into negativity in the book then, yes, I do question the author's intentions because then apparently he makes things look more negative on purpose than they were in reality. Frankly, how can it even be portrayed as the poor treatment of collaborators when they were on his payroll during their time and they were waiting for him in expensive hotels?


Brad Buxer:

The first track Brad chooses to talk about is “In the Back,” released on The Ultimate Collection in 2004. The song is not finished lyrically – for the most part, Michael ad-libs his way through the verses. Nevertheless, Buxer mentions this song as a testament to Michael’s genius. He demonstrates the song structure, starting to count bars, “One, two, three, four.” The first bar falls on the first bass beat, and as he counts all the way to the bridge, we notice that the bridge also starts on count “one,” as it should. The lyrics, however, are shifted against the music and don’t fit that pattern. Buxer describes this as “completely turned around” structure and talks about reversed up beat and down beat, but I’m not a musician and I can only refer to it as “a shift.” Buxer emphasizes that this song was written entirely by Michael. To prove his words, he lets us hear an audio of Michael explaining to him on the phone how exactly the music has to sound. In his usual manner, Michael relays each part with his voice and beatboxing: the drums, the bass, – and he is very particular in that. He spends about 5 minutes just to explain the intro to the song, and then asks, “Okay?” as if to make sure that the arranger has understood what is expected of him. Michael wrote the entire song with this “turned around” structure, says Buxer, and it shows right there what a genius he was. No one could do it but him.

The only song where he says maybe he could have been co-writing credit is SIM. He doesn't say that about other songs, because most of the time MJ already had the song in his head fully. But even about SIM he doesn't claim he wrote the music alone as what seems to be the suggestion in the book based on earlier extracts I have read on the author's website.

Then Buxer goes on to talk about “Stranger in Moscow.” This song contains his biggest contribution of all the material he worked on with Michael, and Brad doesn’t hide that it means a lot to him. He reads the entire piece about the song from Joe Vogel’s book – the story of the song creation is well documented by now. Even though Buxer is not credited in the album liner notes, he actually is a co-author of the song and the one who came up with the chords. Buxer explains that he and Michael could work together in two different ways. Oftentimes, Michael already had the melody in his head, and Buxer’s job was to play that melody on the keyboard as Michael was “hearing” it and find an arrangement that fit the melody. Such was their work on “Heal the World,” “In the Back,” “Childhood,” “Beautiful Girl” and other songs. With “Stranger in Moscow” it was different: Michael asked Brad to play chords until he would hear something he liked, and Buxer came up with the now famous chord progression. Buxer says that the entire song was written in about 1.5-2 hours, and when it was finished, he couldn’t believe what had just happened. “I wanted to say something, like, ‘Wow, did we just write a song together?’” recalls Buxer. “But I didn’t.” He doesn’t hold a grudge about not being credited on the album. “Mistakes happen,” he says. “Michael was always very generous to me.” It’s clear that the experience itself is much more important to him than his name in the booklet.

Childhood:

The next song we discuss is “Childhood.” It is actually happening on the 20th anniversary of “Childhood” – as Brian Vibberts recalls it, the song was recorded on June 27, 1994. “Childhood” is another song that was envisioned and written entirely by Michael, and Buxer says that it took him a while to find the right arrangement for this one. “It’s such a sweet song,” he says. “I wouldn’t write anything so sweet.” But again, Michael was very particular about what he wanted to hear and continued to work with Buxer until he extracted exactly the right chords out of him.

Morphine:

During the Q&A part, someone asked Buxer about song “Morphine” – another masterpiece ingeniously written by Michael. Buxer said that MJ wanted to have the sound of machines and the heartbeat, something that would conjure “a body on the table.”

Maybe that was one of the reasons why Buxer, as most of Michael’s collaborators we had met, didn’t seem to enjoy the remixes and the new arrangements of Michael’s songs too much. “Michael was an architect [of the music],” he said. “If you want to see the building as it was envisioned, you have to keep the architect.” He mentioned “Billie Jean” – a song with two bass lines that Michael constructed intentionally. If someone else did the music to this song, opined Brad, they wouldn’t have done that. Michael worked on his songs for years, and he really put an effort to make the music as good as humanly possible. Sometimes, according to Buxer, Michael even criticized other artists for not working their songs to the fullest of their potential.

On his personal side:

His favorite memory of Michael? “Chasing each other through the halls of the hotel. He is a fast runner… Just hanging out, writing, working on his stuff, talking, laughing and just having a blast.”
Words like these make you realize more vividly than anything that for people like Brad Buxer and other guests of this seminar, Michael was not a superstar – he was a partner and a dear friend.

http://en.michaeljackson.ru/brad-x2-evening-brad-buxer/

Again, Brad Sundberg:

What is harder to see is something that is harder to explain. I have worked with artists who can be... difficult. I have seen fistfights in the studio, watched producers storm out, and temper tantrums that would make a grown man cringe. But never with Michael. He was a pro's pro, and a class act.

https://www.facebook.com/inthestudiowithmj/posts/286941064813128


There is nothing but nice words for his person and admiration for his genius coming out of the mouths of these collaborators whenever I hear them speak about MJ directly. So when did it all become bitter, when did MJ become a spoilt brat and an effed up person who cheated his collaborators out of their work and who treated them poorly? I don't know if it is the book's author or the review but something is very much off here compared to everything that these collaborators of MJ have said before.
 
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Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

I think the only album where this claim about MJ giving himself credit for virtually nothing can come up is Invincible on a couple of songs such as Break of Dawn, Heaven Can Wait or Whatever Happens which were ready songs already on the demo. I honestly cannot see any basis to that claim up until Invincible. Let's see:


Dangerous

Jam - by all accounts he wrote the melody to the song and the lyrics, so what is wrong with MJ getting co-writing credit? Others are also given credit on it.

Why You Wanna Trip On Me - MJ is not given songwriting credit on this.

In The Closet - Teddy said it was very much Michael's song. We have also seen MJ's handwritten lyrics for this song. So it cannot be debated that he deserves songwriting credit on it. Teddy is given co-writing credit.

She Drives Me Wild - I don't know much about the background of this song, but IMO the lyrics are very much MJ and I think he probably wrote them at the very least. If that is the case then of course he should be given co-writing credit.

Remember The Time - the music is mainly Teddy's but they wrote the lyrics together. So nothing wrong with MJ getting co-writing credit again.

Can't Let Her Get Away - I don't know much about the background of this song. It is credited to MJ and Teddy.

Heal The World - A VERY MJ song. I don't think anyone would debate his writing credits here.

Black or White - The song is credited to him and Bill Bottrell who wrote the rap part. Again, I don't think there can any dispute about these credits.

Who Is It - A very MJ song again. This was one of the songs about which Brad said in a documentary in the 90s that MJ had it in his head and instructed him what to play. He did not claim a co-writing contribution here like he does with SIM.

Give In To Me - Credited to MJ and Bill Bottrell. There is studio audio about MJ telling him to play something and write a song together. They did and the song is duely credited to both of them.

Will You Be There - See Who Is It. Brad Buxer mentioned both of these songs when he talked about MJ having a song in his head.

Keep The Faith - The main credits are given to Siedah and Glen Ballard. On the third place MJ is given some credit too. I don't know what his contribution was, I have no information about this.

Gone Too Soon - Not credited to MJ.

Dangerous - MJ, Bottrell and Teddy are all credited. We have heard MJ's demo, we know he did co-write it and his contribution was significant.

HIStory

Scream - we know the music is mainly Jam and Lewis and the lyrics are MJ and Janet. They are all credited.

They Don't Care About Us - A very MJ song.

Stranger in Moscow - we have discussed it before.

This Time Around - Don't know much about this song (I dont really like it). The music probably came from the other writers, the lyrics seem to reflect on MJ's experiences at the time, so I can see him being a writer at least on the lyrics.

Earth Song - An MJ song, unless we want to take Deepak Chopra's claim seriously that he wrote it. LOL.

D.S.
Money - both songs are credited to MJ. I don't know much about the history of these songs. I think Money was written at around the same time as SIM while on tour. That's what I remember about it. MJ's blueprint on these songs is obvious.

YANA - Not credited to MJ although he could have claimed co-writing credit because he actually did contribute to it.

Childhood - I dont think there can be any debate about this.

Tabloid Junkie - credited to MJ and Jam and Lewis. Again, I cant see any debate about this one. If nothing else he probably wrote the lyrics.

History - detto.

2 Bad - Credited to four people. Again, MJ surely contributed at least to the lyrics.

Little Susie - Very MJ song.

Smile - Not credited to him.

BOTDF


All songs on this album have very trademark MJ lyrics and themes, so there can be no debate about his contribution IMO. Musically co-writers are credited on four of the five songs.

-----

So I cannot see this supposed rampant giving himself credit for songs he did not contribute to. Nowhere does the credit sound false or out of place, considering the musical and lyrical styles and themes of the songs. Except for maybe some borderline cases where you can say things like he maybe should have given co-credits to Brad on SIM. But again that happens in every artists' case. And for every SIM there is a YANA where MJ did not take the credit he could have.

The only claim in this regard can be made about some songs on Invincible IMO, where MJ became a bit tired maybe and did not contribute as much as before.

The main issue is producer credits (not songwriting credits), MJ probably claimed he produced songs that he actually didn't like YANA.
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

The main issue is producer credits (not songwriting credits), MJ probably claimed he produced songs that he actually didn't like YANA.

Since he added to YANA in writing I am pretty sure he also added in terms of production. Often those things go hand-in-hand and difficult to seperate. We know that he DID add to that song. He did not take writing credits, he took co-producing credits. If it was not 100% R. Kelly's work but MJ added to it then how is that wrong? The dishonest thing would have been to say that the song is 100% R. Kelly's work because it isn't.
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

^But R. Kelly got real mad that MJ credited himself with production credits, when in fact never produced that song.
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

^But R. Kelly got real mad that MJ credited himself with production credits, when in fact never produced that song.

So? No matter how mad he was. What matters is what happened when they worked in the studio, not how mad R. Kelly was.

They spent the last week of November 1994 together in the studio working on the track.[SUP][5]
[/SUP]
Jackson explained that he instantly liked the song, but listened to it twice before making his final decision. Although the song was written by Kelly, Jackson was adamant that the production should be a collaborative effort amongst the two musicians.[SUP][4][/SUP] The tape sent to him had no harmony or modulations, so Jackson added a choir in the final portion and added a sense of climax and structure to the final piece.[SUP][7][/SUP] The song has a tempo of 60 beats per minute, making it one of Jackson's slowest songs.[SUP][8][/SUP]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Are_Not_Alone

It can very well be called co-production work.

Yes, sometimes people go uncredited for more and somtimes people get credited for less. It is what it is and it was not unique to MJ. You can find many examples of that everywhere in popular music. But it is wrong to say that MJ got credited on YANA for nothing.


The only album where he might have given his name to songs which were fully ready before he even heard them is Invincible. We can talk about that in case of 3-4 songs on that album. But before that the whole thing just sounds like a ridiculous level of nitpicking just for the purpose of making the impression that MJ wasn't really the genius behind his work. MJ was very much involved creatively with most songs on Dangerous, HIStory and BOTDF. (I am only mentioning these albums because the claim in the review is that MJ did this mainly after Bad.) That is actually a well documented fact. His collaborators all acknowledged and praised his creative leadership, his vision, his amazing songwriting methods and skills in the studio as a writer-composer, as a producer, as an arranger. Never once while I listened to them I got the impression they were trying to say that MJ was some sort of puppet of nameless geniuses from behind the scenes. On quite the contrary. Yet,this book - at least based on these reviews - portrays him as such? Even the title "Making Michael" gives that impression. Either that or it's the reviews which deliberately blow the negative out of proportion. I don't know.
 
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Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Since he added to YANA in writing I am pretty sure he also added in terms of production. Often those things go hand-in-hand and difficult to seperate. We know that he DID add to that song. He did not take writing credits, he took co-producing credits. If it was not 100% R. Kelly's work but MJ added to it then how is that wrong? The dishonest thing would have been to say that the song is 100% R. Kelly's work because it isn't.

Just example, if MJ paid for studio where YANA was recorded, or he paid other musicians, he was entitled to take production credits.
If R Kelly did production all by himself without any input or money from MJ, he is entitled to get all credits, but in this case, I don't believe Kelly deserved full production credits.

Added:"he tape sent to him had no harmony or modulations, so Jackson added a choir in the final portion and added a sense of climax and structure to the final piece"
That itself makes Michael co-producer.

Interesting thread about producing credits and how murky that area is
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/661849-producer-credit-question.html
 
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Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Nesboy43's review of Making Michael:



I IN NO WAY ENDORSE EVERY WORD HERE!!!

Thanks for posting that review, I've ordered the book (it popped up on Amazon again yesterday) and can't wait for it to come! it sounds really interesting.

As to Michael's "flaws" mentioned in the review, well, all of them were known from prior memoirs, it's just a question of whether fans want to accept them or not. I'm in favor of honest portrayal of Michael, he was no saint, but a very complex and fascinating person. Also, there are always two sides of the story and Michael never told his, so we just have to remember now to always take into account some personal bias in the recollections of his collaborators. The author of the book is not to be blamed for this bias. His job is to document these recollections and make clear that those are personal opinions and memories of the people he interviewed. As long as he keeps that perspective and doesn't present them as the only truth (Knopper failed in this area, by the way), he is a good author, and it's a worthy book.
 
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Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

^

The author of the book is not to be blamed for this bias. His job is to document these recollections and make clear that those are personal opinions and memories of the people he interviewed.

Well, generally speaking book authors, as well as journalists, are very well capable of taking generally positive stories and quotes and twist it into something negative, sinister or shady. It has happened over and over again around MJ. I don't know if this is the case here, but authors are very well capable of that and they do practice it pretty frequently when it comes to MJ.

Anyway, I would like to read your review if you read it.

PS: No one expects MJ to be portrayed as a saint. That is not the point and I wish this fallacy would be dropped already.
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Let's drop the other extreme then too, that everyone who says or quotes something less than favorable about Michael, writes a "trashy book." So far I've read a few excerpts in the author's blog and there was nothing trashy in them. His article on "Ghosts" yesterday was pretty cool and informative:
http://www.makingmichael.co.uk/#!MICHAEL-JACKSONS-GHOSTS/fagil/563551590cf2354c3159dede

Well, obviously I reacted to the review which says that you come away from reading this book thinking less of MJ both as an artist and and as a person. Those are not my words, but those are straight from the review above. It's not just "something less than favourable about Michael" if this is the general impression this book gives. But as I said, if you read it I'd like to read a review from you, if you don't mind, maybe you would have a different perspective and different impresssion about the book.
 
I don't have the exact quote to hand, but I remember reading an interview with Teddy Riley, where he claimed that he wrote the verses to HCW and MJ came up with the chorus, so his songwriting credit on that one is more than deserved.

Could you find that quote? I remember Riley saying that MJ could not believe his luck at having been given that song.

So a book comes out that actually interviews MJ' s collaborators and provides NEW info on the origins of some of MJ's most neglected songs, and fans aren't interested because they could find out that MJ took credit where he shouldn't have? Artists asking for their names to be credited, or for the actual writers to not be credited, is as old as the music industry. That's why such books are so necessary : they allow us to set the historical record straight. I'm buying this book because it looks like it could be what I hoped Vogel's book would be : NEW interviews and info on how the songs were made. Basically like the gearslutz thread in book form.

The only positive thing is that it does not seem to generate much attention from fans and even less from non-fans. It came out on October 20 and there isn't a single review about it on Amazon and it does not seem to sell well either. So I guess this is just another book for the rubbish bin.

The book is not out yet, its release date has been postponed.
 
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Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

There has been 228 books written about Michael since 2009, they are either fluff, innuendo, rehashes the same narrative over and over, there is not one book that has been published that is telling the true account on what happened to him in life
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

I don't know the real name of robmix but more evidence that this book is a bunch of bull -- if the review is accurate

I was fortunate enough to work with MJ early in my career. He was an incredible artist. Talented beyond your wildest dreams. Extremely generous, and a hard worker.

At one point Michael was angry at one of the producers on the project because he was treating everyone terribly. Rather than create a scene or fire the guy, Michael called him to his office/lounge and one of the security guys threw a pie in his face. No further action was needed . . . . .


During the recording of "Smile" on HIStory, Bruce thought it would be great if Michael would sing live with the orchestra. But of course, we didn't tell the players that. We set him up in a vocal booth off to the side. They rehearsed a bit without vocals in, then during the first take Michael sang, just about knocked them out of their chairs.

His beatboxing was without parallel, and his time was ridiculous.

His sense of harmony was incredible. Never a bad note, no tuning, even his breathing was perfectly in time.

Oh and someone should inform Ron Zonen, who has his Neverland sources telling him that Michael never had a real marriage, about this little fact:

I was there when Lisa Marie was around. They acted like two kids in love. Held hands all the time, and she hung out at the studio for quite a while. I never questioned their love for each other.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-...-worked-michael-jacksons-dangerous-album.html



Oh, and one more IMPORTANT thing. I have never worked with a nicer man than Michael. He was gracious, talented as all get-out, gentle, humble, a perfect gentleman, never swore, was healthy, punctual, and just the very sweetest person I could have ever hoped to work with. Oh, what a brilliant star he was! Absolutely, gone too soon.
Sound engineer John Van Nest, worked with MJ on HIStory and in early 80s


https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-...-worked-michael-jacksons-dangerous-album.html
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

I was trying to read this thread on my cell phone last night and not get angry, at the same time I was out on the porch giving out candy to the little Trick or Treaters and blasting "Thriller" from my boom box while they were dancing on the lawn. I was struck by something Respect said, so I put away the phone and enjoyed the kids and Michael the rest of the night.

I don't mind if 10,228 books come out on Michael-and if they say he was an absolute devil-as long as it's honest and credible. While reading the thread last night, I could hear Quincy suddenly saying "Michael didn't do anything-WE told him what to do" in my head. And quite frankly, I didn't believe one word out of his mouth, just like I don't believe any of this stuff (or at least the way it's interpreted) because we have way too much evidence as to the opposite. The stuff we have on film like the Dangerous Rehearsals, TII Rehearsals, the DEMOS, the stories people have told for years and years-before and AFTER his death don't match this.

I remember one songwriter (I don't remember who it was-maybe Teddy Riley or R. Kelly-I just can't remember) saying they came with several different tracks to Michael and the next day Michael showed up at the studio with the entire melody, harmony and arrangement for one of the tracks. And I was thinking-Melody, Harmony, AND Arrangement??!! That's a whole song! What did YOU do??

It's got to be credible and believable-and it can't be a 180 difference than everything you said in the past-it somewhat reminds me of the WR and JS allegations-you can't go for years and years and years defending somebody and talking about somebody and the good times you had with somebody and then BOOM-totally different story and expect anybody to believe it? I don't think so.

And I also don't believe for a second that Michael would take ANY kind of credit for a song without his input, whether everybody was doing it or not. He's entrenched in the history of music and the notorious history of ripoffs by artists and songwriters of the past. Especially black artists. He's obviously still angry in Moonwalk, when he talks about the Motown split and what Gordy did to them. So, no, I can't see that or believe that one at all.

I would be happy if somebody on the forum would read this book and give an honest review of what's really in it, though, before we go trouncing it-if it is as one-sided as this reviewer makes it out to be, (It's SO mind boggling easy to twist words-I've seen it on this forum as well as Prince's recent tweets) I would have no use for it, and will continue to wait for a decent book.

I don't think Knopper's book is the one, either, because I read an interview and review of it today, and the guy doesn't seem to have a flair for the written word, much less the spoken one. If his interview today was any indication, again, it's an example of a person watching something and then twisting it around and get the truth entirely wrong. So I look forward to the next review from a forum member.
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

The book is not out yet, its release date has been postponed.

Fact and for now, the paperback-only version limits its distribution.

There has been 228 books written about Michael since 2009, they are either fluff, innuendo, rehashes the same narrative over and over, there is not one book that has been published that is telling the true account on what happened to him in life

sigh

Requoted for truth!

Some are looking for something they will never find.
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

And I also don't believe for a second that Michael would take ANY kind of credit for a song without his input, whether everybody was doing it or not.

Well, he did it -- on Invincible. I don't know why he did it. Maybe he was talked into it. Maybe he felt it was fair because without his name, those songs would not make a tenth of what they would thanks to him. Maybe he really needed the extra royalties. Maybe he figured his ad-libs at the end amounted to a kind of cowrite (but then why put his name first in the list, which implied he was the main writer?) Maybe the rough patch he was going through at the time clouded his judgement. It's not the worst sin in the world.

Also, nobody is saying that MJ was not a songwriter : he wrote tons of songs. That book only seems to be giving a voice to his collaborators so they can explain it wasn't all MJ -- on SOME songs.
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

That's what I get for rushing out thinking people only attacked the human being because they had no arguments to mess with his art. Since attacking his persona is kicking a dead horse already, now they're recourring to diminish his contributions into his own work or even questioning his work of ethics. Was Joe Voguel the only one who did his homework and has no bias attitude towards Michael?
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

They want to lesson his impact and take away the genius label which is what they've been doing for decades. Their just going about it in a more diplomatic way this time.
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

They want to lesson his impact and take away the genius label which is what they've been doing for decades. Their just going about it in a more diplomatic way this time.

Didn't I read enough articles, reviews then? I'm pretty sure they thought Michael's work from the 80s is superior to the one in the 90s but they didn't question his genius.
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Was Joe Voguel the only one who did his homework and has no bias attitude towards Michael?

Vogel's book was useless to me: not a single new tidbit of info, and since he basically likes everything, his remarks on the songs amount to nothing you can use. I don't want a hagiography, I want information from the people who were there.
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Well, he did it -- on Invincible. I don't know why he did it. Maybe he was talked into it. Maybe he felt it was fair because without his name, those songs would not make a tenth of what they would thanks to him. Maybe he really needed the extra royalties. Maybe he figured his ad-libs at the end amounted to a kind of cowrite (but then why put his name first in the list, which implied he was the main writer?) Maybe the rough patch he was going through at the time clouded his judgement. It's not the worst sin in the world.

Also, nobody is saying that MJ was not a songwriter : he wrote tons of songs. That book only seems to be giving a voice to his collaborators so they can explain it wasn't all MJ -- on SOME songs.
OK-fine. Something like this doesn't diminish Michael's songwriting in my mind, because I know he wrote tons of songs and have heard demos and heard stories for years about the creations of these songs.

But I just find these stories a little hard to believe without an explanation. I don't think somebody should just say he DID IT, and no explanation of why? Even if Michael had said to the collaborator: "I'm Michael Jackson and this song sucks and unless you put my name on it, no one will buy it"-I'd probably accept that. Maybe. Maybe if it were worded a little kinder.

But I find it hard to believe that a songwriter, who is proud of his work, wouldn't make a squawk about it at the time? Maybe sue Michael? Maybe tell everybody he knows so the story is as commonplace as the arguments between Michael and Quincy on the co-producer credits for "Thriller"? Why tell one story for years and then suddenly change it?
It seems odd to me.
 
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Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

review of Making Michael:



I IN NO WAY ENDORSE EVERY WORD HERE!!!

Thanks for posting the review. It seems as if the book lives up to my initial suspicions when I read the title Making Michael. I don't think that I will be spending my hard earned money on this book.
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

No, it doesn't have to be a hagiography, but let me put it this way: For years I have been reading stories from MJ's collaborators. Interviews, their Facebook accounts, stories coming out from seminars, documentaries etc. Most of the same people who are quoted in these extracts from the book. There was nothing that painted MJ in the light that he seems to be painted in this book - at least if we go by the review above. Brad Buxer told about his contribution to SIM before (although he also told a different story even before that - ie. that the chords were created initially for the Sonic game by MJ and him and that's what they decided to use for SIM) but in the extract from this book now it is claimed that he wrote all of the music which is BS. We know that MJ wrote the melody, for example, which is not mentioned in the extract I read about the song. (Hagiography or not, it IS at least mentioned in Vogel's book. Brad obviously doesn't dispute that claim since he read the part about SIM from Vogel's book at the Brad 2x seminar.) We also know SIM would not have been born without MJ's input. It's one thing to say Brad should have been given co-credit. It's another to go to the other extreme and now make it look like MJ had nothing to do with the music and it was all Brad. It sounds like with every telling of the story of SIM Brad's role gets bigger and bigger and MJ's gets lesser and lesser. To be fair, it's not who is Brad saying that in the book, it is the author who puts it that way. Brad's quotes in themselves are not bad.

But let's forget song credits. The review also makes it look like MJ was a major a**hole to his colleagues. Treated them poorly (actually in one of the extracts from the book even the word "abusive" is used supposedly quoting Bill Bottrell). How come that this is the major impression the book manages to leave behind about MJ when we have dozens of testimonies from colleagues - again, mostly the same people who are quoted in this book - and most of them rave about what a pleasure it was to work with MJ, what an extremely kind, polite person he was? I am sure MJ had his bad days, like all of us do, but generally when you read first hand accounts about him the picture you get is that this was a generally very kind, very polite guy who had great respect to his collaborators and went out of his way to treat them very well. Eg. we heard about family dinners he had with his co-workers in the studio, we heard about him being extremely apologetic if he did not show up, sending them a basket of DVDs as gifts to "compensate" them etc. I am sure there were times when he disappeared for days and did not send them any gift to "compensate", but actually he did not have to if they were on his payroll during those days. That there were times when he did that was an extra little bit of kindness on his part, not an obligation. While I am sure MJ was not a saint and no, he doesn't have to be portrayed as one, and while I am sure he had his bad moods when he was less kind than usual, but when you read first hand testimonies about what it was like to work with MJ the general picture is that this was a very nice, very kind, very generous guy who was a pleasure to work with.

How did then this author manage to portray him as the opposite in the book? Well, if the review is really true - that is. Again, of course, I am talking about what is in the review ("will also make you think much less of Michael as both a person and an artist", "in quite a few cases Mike treated his collaborators poorly", "what a c**d person Michael had become" etc.). Maybe it is the review that is twisting the book's content, we will see when someone else gets to read it. But for now I can only talk about what is in reviews and extracts. This is why I said earlier that an author is more than capable of taking generally positive stories and turn them into rather negative ones if that is his agenda. One way to do is that if there are small negative stories you blow those out of proportion and represent those as the rule, when in fact, the rule was that MJ generally was very kind and treated his collegaues well. (Of course, it is quite possible that it is not the book that is doing this, but the reviewer.) Again, I am not saying this because I see him as a saint, but because this is what I have read directly from his collaborators so far. So if the book managed to turn all those generally positive accounts of MJ as a person into MJ being an a**hole, then it isn't an honest book IMO.

Same about his artistry. Maybe some credits are debatable in one way or another, but if the focus is disportionately on that while conviniently leaving out information about MJ's own contributions (eg. not mentioning that he wrote the melody for SIM) and not representing all the positive accounts of his creative genius proportionately then I don't know how much we can consider this book as something that is "setting the record straight". And BTW, I wouldn't put too much trust into ANY book. You have to consider the sources, the general goal of a book (in this case already the title "Making Michael" seems to set a direction). It sounds like this book is more about praising his collaborators than about a focus on MJ's genius. Which wouldn't be surprising considering everything in the book is told through these collaborator's filter (and of course, they will have some bias for themselves - that's human nature) while MJ's own point of view doesn't get represented. Since the author met the collaborators but did not meet MJ himself he too might have a bias for the collaborators as opposed to MJ. This renders the book to be inevitably one-sided. Of course, it can still carry lots of useful, truthful and never before heard information. I just wouldn't take anything in it as the gospel truth that "sets the record straight". I take it for what it is. Stories told through the filters of MJ's collaborators and in this author's arrangement and interpretation, at a time when MJ is not here to tell his side of the story.
 
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Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Why be surprised when it comes to rewriting his history. It's been a media agenda for decades. Downplay his talent,downplay his success lost count of articles knocking 10-20 mill off copies sold of bad/dangrous etc Downplaying his musical ability/songwriting skills etc. Kinda ironic when 95% of his greatest work were penned by him (or they weren't if you believe the mantra) god forbid mj out do their great white hope. It not about the ongoing debate between how song credits are given that's gone on for years against many lesser skilled artists in the industry. But when it's a such an effort against someone who has written and created such classics then the agenda is clear.

That's before you even start on the rewriting of his personal life.

Be thankful the only people that will care enough to read this book are fans anyway.I guess the writer was to stupid to realise that by keeping it factual he might actually get more fans reading it (the only ppl who have any intrest) that's gone out of the window now
 
Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

No, it doesn't have to be a hagiography, but let me put it this way: For years I have been reading stories from MJ's collaborators. Interviews, their Facebook accounts, stories coming out from seminars, documentaries etc. Most of the same people who are quoted in these extracts from the book. There was nothing that painted MJ in the light that he seems to be painted in this book - at least if we go by the review above. Brad Buxer told about his contribution to SIM before (although he also told a different story even before that - ie. that the chords were created initially for the Sonic game by MJ and him and that's what they decided to use for SIM) but in the extract from this book now it is claimed that he wrote all of the music which is BS. We know that MJ wrote the melody, for example, which is not mentioned in the extract I read about the song. (Hagiography or not, it IS at least mentioned in Vogel's book. Brad obviously doesn't dispute that claim since he read the part about SIM from Vogel's book at the Brad 2x seminar.) We also know SIM would not have been born without MJ's input. It's one thing to say Brad should have been given co-credit. It's another to go to the other extreme and now make it look like MJ had nothing to do with the music and it was all Brad. It sounds like with every telling of the story of SIM Brad's role gets bigger and bigger and MJ's gets lesser and lesser. To be fair, it's not who is Brad saying that in the book, it is the author who puts it that way. Brad's quotes in themselves are not bad.

But let's forget song credits. The review also makes it look like MJ was a major a**hole to his colleagues. Treated them poorly (actually in one of the extracts from the book even the word "abusive" is used supposedly quoting Bill Bottrell). How come that this is the major impression the book manages to leave behind about MJ when we have dozens of testimonies from colleagues - again, mostly the same people who are quoted in this book - and most of them rave about what a pleasure it was to work with MJ, what an extremely kind, polite person he was? I am sure MJ had his bad days, like all of us do, but generally when you read first hand accounts about him the picture you get is that this was a generally very kind, very polite guy who had great respect to his collaborators and went out of his way to treat them very well. Eg. we heard about family dinners he had with his co-workers in the studio, we heard about him being extremely apologetic if he did not show up, sending them a basket of DVDs as gifts to "compensate" them etc. I am sure there were times when he disappeared for days and did not send them any gift to "compensate", but actually he did not have to if they were on his payroll during those days. That there were times when he did that was an extra little bit of kindness on his part, not an obligation. While I am sure MJ was not a saint and no, he doesn't have to be portrayed as one, and while I am sure he had his bad moods when he was less kind than usual, but when you read first hand testimonies about what it was like to work with MJ the general picture is that this was a very nice, very kind, very generous guy who was a pleasure to work with.

How did then this author manage to portray him as the opposite in the book? Well, if the review is really true - that is. Again, of course, I am talking about what is in the review ("will also make you think much less of Michael as both a person and an artist", "in quite a few cases Mike treated his collaborators poorly", "what a c**d person Michael had become" etc.). Maybe it is the review that is twisting the book's content, we will see when someone else gets to read it. But for now I can only talk about what is in reviews and extracts. This is why I said earlier that an author is more than capable of taking generally positive stories and turn them into rather negative ones if that is his agenda. One way to do is that if there are small negative stories you blow those out of proportion and represent those as the rule, when in fact, the rule was that MJ generally was very kind and treated his collegaues well. (Of course, it is quite possible that it is not the book that is doing this, but the reviewer.) Again, I am not saying this because I see him as a saint, but because this is what I have read directly from his collaborators so far. So if the book managed to turn all those generally positive accounts of MJ as a person into MJ being an a**hole, then it isn't an honest book IMO.

Same about his artistry. Maybe some credits are debatable in one way or another, but if the focus is disportionately on that while conviniently leaving out information about MJ's own contributions (eg. not mentioning that he wrote the melody for SIM) and not representing all the positive accounts of his creative genius proportionately then I don't know how much we can consider this book as something that is "setting the record straight". And BTW, I wouldn't put too much trust into ANY book. You have to consider the sources, the general goal of a book (in this case already the title "Making Michael" seems to set a direction). It sounds like this book is more about praising his collaborators than about a focus on MJ's genius. Which wouldn't be surprising considering everything in the book is told through these collaborator's filter (and of course, they will have some bias for themselves - that's human nature) while MJ's own point of view doesn't get represented. Since the author met the collaborators but did not meet MJ himself he too might have a bias for the collaborators as opposed to MJ. This renders the book to be inevitably one-sided. Of course, it can still carry lots of useful, truthful and never before heard information. I just wouldn't take anything in it as the gospel truth that "sets the record straight". I take it for what it is. Stories told through the filters of MJ's collaborators and in this author's arrangement and interpretation, at a time when MJ is not here to tell his side of the story.

The reviewer, definitely twisted the narrative. Like you point out in an earlier post, MJ paid these collaborators thousands an hour to accommodate them. I don't know how one can treat a person 'poorly' yet paid good money to comfort their needs. I've read this book at it is not bad at all. I suggest everyone go read it for themselves.
 
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