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Billyjeanplxiv
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I've avoided this topic for about....20 pages or so i think. Anyways, i try to believe the tracks are Michael Jackson. In fact i believe 100% that Monster is MJ. Ive said that before. I also buy the fact that they are:
Heavily Processed, Sped up Guide Vocals, with Backing from James Porte, and Michael (and possibly a unnamed lead vocalist on some tracks to complete the songs for a respectable posthumous release: most fo the ballads dont sound like MJ to me...but KYHU).
Monster: 100% MJ -Sped up (Backing from Porte)(Rap from 50 cent)
Keep your head up: 95% MJ -sped up just a tad? (Backing from Porte and a Choir)
Breaking News -60% MJ- Sped up. Vocals may have been re-aranged to fit a new instrumention, with heavily choppeed sentances. I believe the intro (everybody wantin' a peice of Michael Jackson is questionable. (Backing by Porte, Spoken Intro by others)
Heavily Processed, Sped up Guide Vocals, with Backing from James Porte, and Michael (and possibly a unnamed lead vocalist on some tracks to complete the songs for a respectable posthumous release: most fo the ballads dont sound like MJ to me...but KYHU).
Monster: 100% MJ -Sped up (Backing from Porte)(Rap from 50 cent)
Keep your head up: 95% MJ -sped up just a tad? (Backing from Porte and a Choir)
Breaking News -60% MJ- Sped up. Vocals may have been re-aranged to fit a new instrumention, with heavily choppeed sentances. I believe the intro (everybody wantin' a peice of Michael Jackson is questionable. (Backing by Porte, Spoken Intro by others)
BUMPER SNIPPET
Guests
In academia and legal testimony yes. But here, we are outside academia and legal testimony on the one hand. On the other, not all PhD holders agree on the very same subject.
How about a PhD with 20 years experience in voice recognition who happens to be also a MJ fan and disagrees with the PhD with 20 years experience in voice recognition and who is not a MJ fan.
You make it sound as if all experts and PhD claim that those songs are MJ's. This is simply not the case as many haven't voiced their opinion at all. That's also what I call a hasty categorization of people, making it sound as if experts were on the one side and fans on the other.
In your book.
Right. In other words those fans who tend to agree with Swedien are more knowledgable than those who dare
to disagree with him.
However, this is not the court room. Life does not depend on it. Only legal matters do.
Are you saying that PhD holders with whom you are working know better your voice than your friends, family and all those who would listen to you on a daily basis among whom there are also PhD holders?
The advantage that Bruce has is the fact that he can prove he worked with Michael which no one denies here.
Now I'd be curious to see the result of a competition between Bruce Swedien and a hard core fan. I'd bet on the hard core fan that he/she knows more MJ's songs than Bruce has ever heard of. If Bruce knows about 100 MJ's songs (without knowing the lyrics by heart) and a hard core fan about the double, triple or even more (knowing all the lyrics and a single Michael's mimic in each song) + those of soundalikes, even in court Bruce's credibility would suffer.
Indeed, but in my job there are also people with same credentials who tend to disagree and use other methods and rely on other theories. That's why I also believe that Bruce, despite all his credentials, is wrong in this particular case.
The reality is certainly not experts vs not experts as you make it sound.
Bruce is less likely to be wrong than another fan in doing his job. But he is not less likely to be wrong than any fan in NOT doing his job by claiming who's on the tracks as his job is not voice recognition at all.[/QUOTE]
Again you are categorizing by saying "experts" and "fans". You make it sound as if all experts agree and as if among fans there are no experts. Indirectly you are implying that the non-doubters are more credible than the doubters only because they follow some experts' opinions.
bumper i think you are forgetting the original question. it was something like "why they didn't listen to fans" and I answered to that as they had experts. and my point was if this thing ever got serious such as lawsuit they had the expert advantage.
let me put the quote here.
I merely pointed out that the reason the "fans" opinions wouldn't be listened is that they thought that they had a group of people - musicians and experts- and that their opinion would have more weight when the push comes to shove. that was all my point.
again not the point. the question was "why didn't they listen to fans". and again my point was merely that they had "experts" over the fans. I wasn't debating who is a better expert.
I definitively wasn't saying "all" experts. but we know that estate/sony has 2 experts that say it's Michael. I haven't seen any expert saying the opposite. so as of now this is an expert - non expert positions.
in academia and in law.
I never said such a thing. again please go back to the original set of questions. it questioned estate / sony to go along with these songs despite the fan reaction. my whole point was once again they had something bigger than fans such as musicians that worked with michael with decades , experts etc.
when I wrote that swedien > fan I was trying to say as a person that worked with MJ for decades he would have more weight than an average fan that listened to mj for decades.
I didn't say that either. I said that a person that holds PhD in music, forensic audiology etc would be a better determinant of voice identification than a fan.only in their area of expertise. I didn't say that it applies to all phd's. For example I will (hopefully) have a phd in business that makes me an expert in business and not in voice identification.
this is wishful thinking imo.
and your position shows that we have two conflicting positions and not an undisputed fact.
again didn't do any of that. I merely pointed out that the reason the "fans" opinions wouldn't be listened is that they thought that they had a group of people - musicians and experts- and that their opinion would have more weight when the push comes to shove. that was all my point.
businesses work a lot different than a person does. again look to the tribute concert. we are protesting but it's going on. why aren't they listening to us? well probably because they are achieving their profit goal with that tribute. I can sit here and ask "Why are our concerns not taken equally as seriously?" but the reality is as a business if they are legally covered and if they are having profit, they'll continue. that's what I call "life".
and i didn't get an answer : bruce can be wrong, experts can be wrong but people on this thread that says "it's 100% malachi" can't be wrong? is that it?
BUMPER SNIPPET
Guests
"Why they didn't listen to fans (implying: among whom there are also experts)" is the original question.
Your point fails when illustrated as experts>fans, as the word fans include experts too. Basically you are saying: experts>fans+experts (who disagree with the contractual ones).
And that's a hasty conclusion. Not voicing an expert opinion doesn't mean that the we have an expert vs non expert position.
The reality you painted. I'd be however more worried by Janet's or Riggs's silence, than jump to conclusions that we have an expert vs. non expert situation. By the way, Swedien was even not present during the Cascio recording session, so his testimony could never serve as a base to draw conclusions that it is Michael.
I did not say you said that. I said you make it sound as if.
1) You make it sound as if.
2) Bruce is not an expert in voice identification either
3) We don't know the credentials of the voice identificators
This is not a wishful thinking. A hard core fan knows better MJ's voice and mimics than Bruce will ever know. It's a fact.
I have an undisputed fact for myself. I never claimed that the situation itself is an undisputed fact.
And that's what we were all saying all along. They preferred listening to their business advisers than to care about the fan community as if the fans were stupid sheep who don't have a damn clue about anything regarding Michael.
People on this thread are not a group of people working together under a contract. We all met thanks to our initial opinion based on what we heard separately in different rooms countries etc.. For some it is enough to question the authencity of the vocals and emphasize that onl that fact is enough to prove that something is wrong with the tracks no matter what any expert or MJ's family say.
The last example was BURN TONIGHT. Without debating or consulting each other, many felt the same after hearing it.
p.s. Did Bruce Swdien hear all the Cascio tracks?
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azsummergirl
Proud Member
u know what we're probably doing, at this point? we're probably just providing market research to the people who did this by pointing out all the discrepancies between the cascio songs.They'er probably taking notes so they can do a better job next time. Next time they'll make sure to throw in some claps and more ad-libs and make sure jason is pronouncing words like "waiting" more like michael. They should have gotten a fan to help them out.
I'm 100% serious when i say if someone put me in a room with jason malachi and asked me to create a song that sounded like mj, i could do a better job than what we got on Michael. except i wouldn't do it for all the money in the world. so i guess that's the difference.
well anyway, if they do try this again (which i would totally not be surprised if they did) they should know that no matter WHAT they do, they can't duplicate mj.
ahh, sorry, just catching up with the thread:
i also don't buy that bruce swedien (or anyone else, for that matter) can determine mj's voice better than us. Seriously, who is more qualified than the fans? it's not even just about the frequency that i listen to michael, it's the recency (i know that's not a word lol). The last time i listened to a michael jackson song was . . . let's see . . . 20 minutes ago. And it's never much longer than that. the hardcore fans listen to him ALL DAY, ALL THE TIME. who could possibly be more qualified to pick out his voice??
and i have to agree with bumper, i don't believe that there aren't complete tracks. i truly do believe michael when he said there were hundreds. it's just my gut feeling. who knows. i hope his kids have them, somehow
I'm 100% serious when i say if someone put me in a room with jason malachi and asked me to create a song that sounded like mj, i could do a better job than what we got on Michael. except i wouldn't do it for all the money in the world. so i guess that's the difference.
well anyway, if they do try this again (which i would totally not be surprised if they did) they should know that no matter WHAT they do, they can't duplicate mj.
ahh, sorry, just catching up with the thread:
i also don't buy that bruce swedien (or anyone else, for that matter) can determine mj's voice better than us. Seriously, who is more qualified than the fans? it's not even just about the frequency that i listen to michael, it's the recency (i know that's not a word lol). The last time i listened to a michael jackson song was . . . let's see . . . 20 minutes ago. And it's never much longer than that. the hardcore fans listen to him ALL DAY, ALL THE TIME. who could possibly be more qualified to pick out his voice??
and i have to agree with bumper, i don't believe that there aren't complete tracks. i truly do believe michael when he said there were hundreds. it's just my gut feeling. who knows. i hope his kids have them, somehow
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who do you classify as an "expert" in the fan community? and expert in what? credentials?
for example you multiple times said that you wouldn't deny bruce swedien's work with michael but also he's not an expert in voice identification. so wouldn't that also apply to the fans? no one is going to deny that there are fans that listened to mj for decades but what makes them "voice identification experts"?
for example you multiple times said that you wouldn't deny bruce swedien's work with michael but also he's not an expert in voice identification. so wouldn't that also apply to the fans? no one is going to deny that there are fans that listened to mj for decades but what makes them "voice identification experts"?
azsummergirl
Proud Member
^^i'd say doing something over and over and over and over again, on a daily basis, to the point of obsession makes you an expert in that thing.
Like i was watching one of those crazy TLC shows the other day where this kid was obsessed with collecting vacuum cleaners (what up with that?!) Anyway, he has like a house full of vacuum cleaners, he searches for them on the weekend, people call him up and ask him about vacuum cleaners, he researches them, he can identify the brand by sound without looking at them . . . he's an odd kid. But yes, i'd consider him an expert on vacuum cleaners.
we're as obsessed about mj as he is about vacuums, right? I mean, we listen to him all the time, we have collections of his stuff, his pictures, his music, we've researched him, i'm willing to bet any one of you could identify which mj song you were listening to from the first 3 notes. if we're not experts, no one is. The very nature of our love (and obsession) MAKES us experts. we keep it up and we never stop. yes, we're more qualified to judge than anyone else, i'd say. including bruce swedien.
Like i was watching one of those crazy TLC shows the other day where this kid was obsessed with collecting vacuum cleaners (what up with that?!) Anyway, he has like a house full of vacuum cleaners, he searches for them on the weekend, people call him up and ask him about vacuum cleaners, he researches them, he can identify the brand by sound without looking at them . . . he's an odd kid. But yes, i'd consider him an expert on vacuum cleaners.
we're as obsessed about mj as he is about vacuums, right? I mean, we listen to him all the time, we have collections of his stuff, his pictures, his music, we've researched him, i'm willing to bet any one of you could identify which mj song you were listening to from the first 3 notes. if we're not experts, no one is. The very nature of our love (and obsession) MAKES us experts. we keep it up and we never stop. yes, we're more qualified to judge than anyone else, i'd say. including bruce swedien.
Totally agree.....
This reminds of when I was lying in bed one night, and my bf had the TV on...I was falling asleep, turned away from the TV, totally out of it and he turned the channel and the Scream video came on...But all it took for me to recognize that the video was on was that sound it makes before the music or anything starts when the title breaks apart...you know that sound that I'm talking about, the spaceship sound? And it was like, a split second...I immediately bolted up in bed cuz I knew it was Michael
My bf was looking at me all crazy like, he said, 'As if you recognized that'...I was like, 'It's cuz I'm fecking awesome' So, yeah, that's how familiar I am with him and his music....Putting aside his voice, even...
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azsummergirl
Proud Member
do i know the sound u mean? ya, it goes something like; 'drrr nerrrrr" HAHAHAi was saying it in my head reading your story
do i know the sound u mean? ya, it goes something like; 'drrr nerrrrr" HAHAHAi was saying it in my head reading your story
Wowie! Well articulated! :lmao:
azsummergirl
Proud Member
well clearly whoever MADE these tracks was no expert in mj's voice, anyway. any one of us coulda told them that "mama got you in a zig zag" is--umm--wrong.
hahaha....whoever MADE these tracks...like they were macramed or something lol ...Essentially, that`s what happened haha
okay
doing it over and over make an expert - so you say that if a fan listens to mj everyday for 20 years then they are an expert.
then why wouldn't swedien be an expert then? didn't he mix billie jean 90 times?
see my point? to me some things seem such double standard.
for example
if you are going to argue that swedien is a sound engineer and not a forensic audiologist / not trained in voice identification- fine. then you should also accept that all the fans that are not forensic audiologists / not trained in voice identification - wouldn't be experts either.
if you are going to argue that regardless of expertise swedien (or anyone else) could be wrong, you really should also acknowledge that you can be wrong as well.
because if you go "he ain't an expert but we all are" and "he can be wrong but we can't" then you only sound highly biased.
doing it over and over make an expert - so you say that if a fan listens to mj everyday for 20 years then they are an expert.
then why wouldn't swedien be an expert then? didn't he mix billie jean 90 times?
see my point? to me some things seem such double standard.
for example
if you are going to argue that swedien is a sound engineer and not a forensic audiologist / not trained in voice identification- fine. then you should also accept that all the fans that are not forensic audiologists / not trained in voice identification - wouldn't be experts either.
if you are going to argue that regardless of expertise swedien (or anyone else) could be wrong, you really should also acknowledge that you can be wrong as well.
because if you go "he ain't an expert but we all are" and "he can be wrong but we can't" then you only sound highly biased.
azsummergirl
Proud Member
ya, sure he mixed billie jean 90 times. did he mix billie jean 90 times . . . yesterday? no. did i listen to billie jean 90 times yesterday? well, no, but pretty close.
my point is a super fan listens to mj much more frequently and RECENTLY.
if you want to stick with the "kid obsessed with vacuum cleaners" analogy (i know III do) the guy that manufactured the Kirby Legend (which is apparently some holy grail of vacuums) in 1989 is probably not as much of an expert on vacuums as this 16 year old kid. cuz the manufacturer is not surrounded by it every day, he doesn't keep up with it, he doesn't study OTHER vacuums and take them apart.
also, this isn't one fan against a single "expert". our collective knowledge seems a lot more credible to me than a single expert. we're like a legion of experts. and bruce swedien didn't go through and pick apart the tracks like Pentum. He didn't go through and compare the tracks to known samples from JM. he didn't hear portions of the song and KNOW they came from existing michael jackson songs and analyze them with waveforms. He didn't talk about this for 10 months. You know who did? we did. the fans did.
as to your other point: ummmmmmmmmmmmmm. hmm. i can't acknowledge that i might be wrong, because i'm absolutely not wrong. I'm as sure about this as anybody can be about anything--but i guess that all comes down to what 'sure' even means. even the theory of relativity is just a theory, after all. but scientists have every reason to believe it, in our current understanding of how the world works.
So i'll just put it that way, i guess i might be wrong, but here, on this planet, in this dimension, with the knowledge that i have about michael jackson and the way he sounds, and the way these tracks sound, i am not wrong. go listen to burn 2nite.
my point is a super fan listens to mj much more frequently and RECENTLY.
if you want to stick with the "kid obsessed with vacuum cleaners" analogy (i know III do
) the guy that manufactured the Kirby Legend (which is apparently some holy grail of vacuums) in 1989 is probably not as much of an expert on vacuums as this 16 year old kid. cuz the manufacturer is not surrounded by it every day, he doesn't keep up with it, he doesn't study OTHER vacuums and take them apart. also, this isn't one fan against a single "expert". our collective knowledge seems a lot more credible to me than a single expert. we're like a legion of experts. and bruce swedien didn't go through and pick apart the tracks like Pentum. He didn't go through and compare the tracks to known samples from JM. he didn't hear portions of the song and KNOW they came from existing michael jackson songs and analyze them with waveforms. He didn't talk about this for 10 months. You know who did? we did. the fans did.
as to your other point: ummmmmmmmmmmmmm. hmm. i can't acknowledge that i might be wrong, because i'm absolutely not wrong. I'm as sure about this as anybody can be about anything--but i guess that all comes down to what 'sure' even means. even the theory of relativity is just a theory, after all. but scientists have every reason to believe it, in our current understanding of how the world works.
So i'll just put it that way, i guess i might be wrong, but here, on this planet, in this dimension, with the knowledge that i have about michael jackson and the way he sounds, and the way these tracks sound, i am not wrong. go listen to burn 2nite.
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Aniram
Proud Member
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- Jul 25, 2011
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It's just so obviously Malachi on the songs. I listened to a Malachi song this morning and he was singing identical to how he sings in All I Need. Soooooo freaky and sick. Barf. He has a creepy voice sometimes really, like a weak ghost.
azsummergirl
Proud Member
ah, no, here's our boy
[YouTube]D5wn7St3A14[/YouTube]
lol, is this OT?! :blushing:
[YouTube]D5wn7St3A14[/YouTube]
lol, is this OT?! :blushing:
Vacuum savant! :lmao: I knew the one I posted likely wasn't him, but that's what came up on YouTube when I typed 'vacuum expert' :lol:
how do you know that he doesn't listen to MJ? perhaps he listens to him as much as you do.
u never know.
if you want to stick with the "kid obsessed with vacuum cleaners" analogy (i know III do
I'll agree that he wouldn't be an expert in "all" vacuums but he would be expert in the vacuum that he himself has designed.
how do you know what he did or didn't do? and plus fans really don't have a collective expertise. sure pentum did the comparisons but you just listened and agreed to them. you didn't bring any "collective" or more knowledge.
and this is why never a fan would be taken seriously in a serious environment such as a court room
azsummergirl
Proud Member
i'm really not sure what you're trying to convince me of. that bruce swedien listens to mj as much as hardcore fans? unlikely. that ANYONE listens to mj as much as we do? unlikely--actually? impossible.
and i don't care about a "court of law". This is an internet forum. i'm not IN a court of law. and i don't need a court of law to tell me what's true. Innocent people get convicted and guilty people get off every day. it doesn't mean anything. truthfully, i don't even know why i talk about this here. probably just b/c i'm upset and i can't let it go. i guess i just think every fan of mj deserves to realize that we've been completely hosed.
and just b/c i don't have the software or the expertise to make comparisons like some other members doesn't mean i don't add anything to this. we each hear mj differently, i'm sure we each pick up different sounds more than others when we listen to his voice. the fact that so many of us, completely unrelated to each other besides our love for mj, have decided these are fake is what i was getting at with my comment on "collective knowledge". The fact that i CAN listen to the comparisons and hear a difference, with my own unique knowledge of mj: that's adding to our collectivity in and of itself.
for someone who is "not here to debate" and has repeatedly said you don't take sides on the issue, why do you support only one side? why do you even bother defending these tracks? i really don't get it.
why don't u come at me after you've listened to burn 2nite? actually . . . i don't care. kyhu is just as bad, so whatever. enjoy your cd.
and i don't care about a "court of law". This is an internet forum. i'm not IN a court of law. and i don't need a court of law to tell me what's true. Innocent people get convicted and guilty people get off every day. it doesn't mean anything. truthfully, i don't even know why i talk about this here. probably just b/c i'm upset and i can't let it go. i guess i just think every fan of mj deserves to realize that we've been completely hosed.
and just b/c i don't have the software or the expertise to make comparisons like some other members doesn't mean i don't add anything to this. we each hear mj differently, i'm sure we each pick up different sounds more than others when we listen to his voice. the fact that so many of us, completely unrelated to each other besides our love for mj, have decided these are fake is what i was getting at with my comment on "collective knowledge". The fact that i CAN listen to the comparisons and hear a difference, with my own unique knowledge of mj: that's adding to our collectivity in and of itself.
for someone who is "not here to debate" and has repeatedly said you don't take sides on the issue, why do you support only one side? why do you even bother defending these tracks? i really don't get it.
why don't u come at me after you've listened to burn 2nite? actually . . . i don't care. kyhu is just as bad, so whatever. enjoy your cd.
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Grent
Guests
Could someone please post everything there is about Bruce Swedien and the Michael album ? Quotes, articles etc.
Thanks.
Thanks.
BUMPER SNIPPET
Guests
We do not know every single fan. The idea of putting all the fans together into one basket and then telling that they are inferior to Bruce Swedien's credentials without knowing all the fans is, as I said, an easy unequation theory.
Likewise, following some experts' statement who voiced their opinions, does not mean that automatically all the experts would agree, as many of them did even not state anything.
By the way, I don't know where we can even read what exactly Bruce said and mostly WHY?
When question was asked to Teddy and when Teddy answered "because you can hear the authenicity in his voice and no one can scream like that". Is that what you find an expert answer? Because you can hear the authenticity? I am sorry, but I can't hear the authenticity, and Teddy did not explain it either.
And the second part of the answer "because no one can scream like that". Is that how an expert gives his answer? To me it sounds like a man short for words rather than an expert's determined and definitive answer.
As far as I am concerned, Teddy proves how an expert as himself who worked with Michael can give an amateurish answer to the controversy question.
The repetition. Cerebral gymnastics. When you repeat something over and over again, which is quite an easy exercise when you love something, you become more acute.
For example if you repeat martial arts movements you'll become expert. When you sing, dance, draw, paint, swim, write,... everyday you get better and better. Eventually you can become an expert without having any official credentials on the paper to prove it. For example, Michael Jackson's zeal resulted in him becoming an expert. He didn't study in an official school to give him that credential, he built the credential himself.
A concrete example would be on this very board. I did a very simple test. Without saying anything to anyone I posted a second or two long snippet. I even reversed the sound which for a second or two long snippet can be unnoticable. The voice on the snippet did not say a word, just a very short "aaa". I named the file BW.
Few minutes later not only Pentum realized it was reversed so he played it backwards, but also he knew whose voice was it and from which song it came! I jokingly called Pentum a holder of PhD in Jasonmalachology.
Now, if I had submitted that snippet to Bruce, I can imagine he would realize that that one second snippet was probably reversed. But I have hard times to believe that --as much as he is an expert who worked with Michael-- he would be able to identify the voice on that snippet, and even less to tell from which Malachi's song it came in as short time as some of the fans, like Pentum, would be able to do.
The rapidity of our brains to recognize Michael's or his soundalikes is so high due to the conditioning and training that it takes less time to identify the voice than the experts' who after all analysis they did (without providing a single professional report) can't claim 100% that they are right to believe that it's Michael on those songs.
BUMPER SNIPPET
Guests
Try listening to anything repeatedly and daily for 20 years and tell me if your opinion wouldn't matter after all those years of daily and repeated listening.
There is no single academy in the world that issues credentials for repeatedly listening or being able to recognize Michael's voice. So of course not a single fan does have a written credential. But reducing fans' abilities to recognize Michael's voice after so many years of daily and repeated listening to non-expert opinion would be the same as saying that they haven't listened a single day to anything Michael produced. That would be quite unfair and removing all credibility the fans have.
He is. Nobody denies it. But he's as much expert in daily and repeated listening as any other fan. Which means regarding that very "discipline" Swdien's opinion is NOT superior.
On the other hand, the question is how frequently Swedien actually does listen to Michael Jackson's voice. Does he have an account here.
Does he voice himself as a fan?
No double standards here. The things must be put on the same level. Swedien does not have more skills than fans when it comes to recognizing Michael's voice. It's simply not his job. No one belittles Swedien's credentials. But no one has seen his exact words either.
I already gave an example of Teddy who as a professional who worked with Michael, instead of giving a professional answer, says in an unsure voice: "you can hear the authenticity". What the heck? What "authenticity" is he talking about? He further elaborates by saying "because" no one can scream like that?!" Is that his expert's analysis? Screams?
They are experts in recognizing MJ's voice. It's not because there are no official papers to tell you that you are skillful in recognizing MJ's voice that you aren't. On the same level I don't see any fan saying they are better sound engineers than Bruce Swedien. The subject is not sound engineering.
Why don't you make an inequation now? Fan's ability to recognize MJ's voice vs non-fan ability to recognize it?
Regarding MJ's voice recognition if you have been a fan for decades it would really be extremeely unusual to say to oneself "I've been fan for decades, I don't recognize Mike's voice, but it's ok, I'll stay unbiased and ask a non-fan to tell me whose voice it is."
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