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Murray Trial- Day 13- October 19th Discussion

Originally Posted by qbee
Murray is not a heart sugeon. I think that was stated early on. He is a cardiologist.
but he still should be at least familiar with these proceedures and the dangers of
anisthetics.
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I just dont know how Dr White can contradict anything Dr Shafer has stated.
will be interesting to say the least


rita.gibson said:
Thanks qbee, So that's not true that Murry punctured a man's heart during surgery so contributing to his death. I'm so out of touch, trying to cope not only with the loss of Michael but also the fact it would have been so easy to save him.
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I think it is very possible that heart damage can be caused when placing stents.

I understand that stents are 'fed through' narrow tubing through the patients main arteries (?) to get to wherever they are needed eg the coronary arteries ( which supply blood to the heart)

( It is not surgery in the sense of cutting open the chest cavity...but it is still a procedure that needs 'surgical -type ' conditions.
 
he said it under his breath, I doubt the jury noticed it, we only noticed it cuz the camera zoomed onto his face.
 
twinklEE said:
he said it under his breath, I doubt the jury noticed it, we only noticed it cuz the camera zoomed onto his face.
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oh I see what you are saying,,,I myself missed it..I was doing other things at that time ..but I was listening to the testimony. I will have to check out the youtube vid.


edited to add....yup I watched it...and yes that IS what it looks like he is saying. Good looking out there Justthefacts...:)
 
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Justthefacts said:
Conrad Murray Trial - Day 9, part 4 /last/ - YouTube

This is Murray's interview witht he cops I am posting this again because of what was said today about the andote for Lorzenpam. At one hour and 13 seconds when Murray said he gave that stuff on tape watch Murray say oh f@@k
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OMG ...I saw it!!!

Why does he say that?... did it not fit in with previous testimony of a court witness?

???..Sorry I missed the point and cant find where this discussion stems from.??

Thanks!!
 
Dear Ivy,
First, thank you very much for your summary for Oct 19. 2011.

Second, seems you've made a mistake indicating 'Taiwan' instead of People's Republic of China in regarding to that medical study and later the article on November 25, 2010. Guess that is that study they were talking about: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21107748#
Here is a YouTube link as a prove (see 34:02): http://youtu.be/DnNtafwZNIg
Well, it doesn't mean a lot in the case but nevertheless it is what was said.

P.S. Sent you a PM also.
 
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elusive moonwalker said:
I think mj was long gone by the time murray noticed
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according to sade anding mj was still alive when murray called her at shortly before noon:

sade overheard mumbling and coughing. the coughing - this must have been mj; mj was alive and awake at this point.

it implies mj wasn't under the influence of propofol when anding overheard the coughing; i don't think it's possible for a patient to cough when he's sedated (can someone confirm this)

but at time of death high amounts of propofol were found in blood!

sade's testimony tells me that:

  • at shortly before noon mj was awake and not under the influence of propofol
  • a propofol bolus was administered at noon
  • murray was at mj's bedside when propofol was injected
  • thus, the propofol was either administered by murray, or we have to believe mj self-injected himself right under murray's eyes..
  • propofol blood levels rushed up and mj went into respiratory arrest
  • murray was there when mj stopped breathing; he was at his bedside
  • murray could have saved mj if he had been able to ventilate him. according to dr shafer mj would have survived uninjured. respiratory arrest is no big problem if a physician knows how to handle it
  • even if murray didn't know how to ventilate, he would still have stood a chance to save mj if he had called 911 immediately
 
Miche said:
OMG ...I saw it!!!

Why does he say that?... did it not fit in with previous testimony of a court witness?

???..Sorry I missed the point and cant find where this discussion stems from.??

Thanks!!
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Dr. Shafer testified yesterday that he was surprised Murray gave Flumazanil to reverse benzodiacepine effects if he had only given him 4mg of lorazepam and quite separatedly the two doses as declared to police. His conclusion was that Murray had used much more lorazepam...
Vinter said:
Dear Ivy,
First, thank you very much for your summary for Oct 19. 2011.

Second, seems you've made a mistake indicating 'Taiwan' instead of People's Republic of China in regarding to that medical study and later the article on November 25, 2010. Guess that is that study they were talking about: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21107748#
Well, it doesn't mean a lot in the case but nevertheless it is what was said.

P.S. Sent you a PM also.
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Yes, yesterday they said China. (And I think they said "People's Republic of China", which is different to "Republic of China", as Bouee points out below and which is the name for the island of Taiwan).

However, Flanagan in his cross to the two medical experts prior to Shafer, said Taiwan.

It surprised me too.
 
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Vinter said:
Dear Ivy,
First, thank you very much for your summary for Oct 19. 2011.

Second, seems you've made a mistake indicating 'Taiwan' instead of People's Republic of China in regarding to that medical study and later the article on November 25, 2010. Guess that is that study they were talking about: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21107748#
Well, it doesn't mean a lot in the case but nevertheless it is what was said.

P.S. Sent you a PM also.
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Yes, you are right I did hear that yesterday, Dr Shafer said People's Republic of China. That confused me , I wrote a note to myself, and eventually erarsed the note before posting it on this board, so it is also my mistake, I'm sorry.

The reason I was confused is that Flanagan mentionned a study made in Taiwan, and it's clear Flanagan and Dr Shafer were talking about the same study. Taiwan is China, not the People's Republic of China. So I figured one of them got it wrong, or maybe I misheard Taiwan.

I think we should refer to it as the Chinese study, to avoid confusion, because clearly it's the same one.
 
I just find in China's search engine, there are papers about Propofol treating insomnia study dated back to as early as 2006.
 
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Was kind of dreading the prosecution doing the cross on Dr Shafer but the logical part of my brain says that they are always going to be clutching at straws.
 
okay so do you all want me to change it to china?
 
I know this question is quite unfitting, but I'm wondering if Michael felt something was very wrong with him in his very last minutes of his life? Or did he suffocate when he was asleep already so he didn't notice anything?
 
elusive moonwalker said:
I think mj was long gone by the time murray noticed
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That's always been my belief too.

Thank you to Milka, qbee and myosotis for response and links. So Murray knew full well how important monitering equipment is for anaesthesia, he knew full well that he could kill Michael, but he still went ahead and did it, In my book that's called 'Premeditation'.
 
just watched the rest of shaffers direct. what can you say. imo his testimony alone would be enough to convict.so upsetting to to sit and listen to when everything is laid out like that.its makes everything so raw . the part where he talked about what if it was your dad bro ect being treated and he dies was hard hitting and according to reports jurrors looked at the family when he was talking about that. i see all flanagan did through the direct was give give dirty looks and rolls his eyes.well good luck to him on cross. hes gonna need it.
 
So Muarry said O--F-- because he did not think he would be exposed by shaffer. This is all his arrogance, thinking he would get away with what he did. I guess he is looking at the TV commentators who blame Michael and had some false sense of security that he would win this case. This is the same man who said that Michael was his friend.

PS: Yes Elusive any family member would want to know what a doctor gave their relative to cause his death. Muarry purposely did not make notes, and lied saying "there was nothing I gave him that would kill him." What a strange statement to make after your patient died.
 
ivy said:
okay so do you all want me to change it to china?
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It would probablt be a good idea, to avoid confusion, just in case Flanagan continues with Taiwan. It could confuse people and make them believe that there are 2 studies (i was confused for about 3 seconds yesterday when Dr Shafer said people's republic of china)

I will write China in my notes, so we are clear.
 
sophie said:
according to sade anding mj was still alive when murray called her at shortly before noon:

sade overheard mumbling and coughing. the coughing - this must have been mj; mj was alive and awake at this point.

it implies mj wasn't under the influence of propofol when anding overheard the coughing; i don't think it's possible for a patient to cough when he's sedated (can someone confirm this)



but at time of death high amounts of propofol were found in blood!

sade's testimony tells me that:

  • at shortly before noon mj was awake and not under the influence of propofol
  • a propofol bolus was administered at noon
  • murray was at mj's bedside when propofol was injected
  • thus, the propofol was either administered by murray, or we have to believe mj self-injected himself right under murray's eyes..
  • propofol blood levels rushed up and mj went into respiratory arrest
  • murray was there when mj stopped breathing; he was at his bedside
  • murray could have saved mj if he had been able to ventilate him. according to dr shafer mj would have survived uninjured. respiratory arrest is no big problem if a physician knows how to handle it
  • even if murray didn't know how to ventilate, he would still have stood a chance to save mj if he had called 911 immediately
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Maybe it was Murray who was mumbling and coughing.
("Oh God what shall I do,how can I get away from this" or something like that)
Maybe she just thought she heard something,Murray could have told her Michael was coughing and then she thought she had heard it.
 
twinklEE said:
he said it under his breath, I doubt the jury noticed it, we only noticed it cuz the camera zoomed onto his face.
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My question why did he say it? the recording was talking about Fumazenil being given to counter the effects of the Lorazepam. Can we discuss this? it happens around 1:13:44.
 
indranee said:
My question why did he say it? the recording was talking about Fumazenil being given to counter the effects of the Lorazepam. Can we discuss this? it happens around 1:13:44.
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The witness was saying how Fumazenil was an odd choice at that moment since the Lopz shouldn't be a factor in Michael's arrest. So, he came to the conclusion that Murray gave more that 4mg recently since he thought of given the Fumazenil to begin with.
 
Ramona122003 said:
The witness was saying how Fumazenil was an odd choice at that moment since the Lopz shouldn't be a factor in Michael's arrest. So, he came to the conclusion that Murray gave more that 4mg recently since he thought of given the Fumazenil to begin with.
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Oh okay got it. thanks!
 
ivy said:
okay so do you all want me to change it to china?
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bouee said:
It would probablt be a good idea, to avoid confusion, just in case Flanagan continues with Taiwan. It could confuse people and make them believe that there are 2 studies (i was confused for about 3 seconds yesterday when Dr Shafer said people's republic of china)
I will write China in my notes, so we are clear.
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Ivy, bouee,
Well, it's up to you, guys.
I've just noticed that and posted here so you decide. But to be clear I would transcript their words as they are cuz we all know what they were talking about (there are no new experiments in this sphere but if there are, they will be named as People's next item number).
 
sophie said:
according to sade anding mj was still alive when murray called her at shortly before noon:

sade overheard mumbling and coughing. the coughing - this must have been mj; mj was alive and awake at this point.

it implies mj wasn't under the influence of propofol when anding overheard the coughing; i don't think it's possible for a patient to cough when he's sedated (can someone confirm this)

but at time of death high amounts of propofol were found in blood!
Click to expand...


Do we know who was coughing though? There has been speculation that he rang her to cover his time line as he had not rung her in ages before this and out of the blue he rings and all that commotion happens just then.

So we dont know if it was MJ coughing or it was Murray or possibly even someone else?
 
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