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Murray Trial - Day 14 - October 20 - Discussion

Also the 40mg loraz amount confuses me. anderson mentioned around 11 are these two numbers in relation to something else?
 
Shafer didn't give a scenario for the whole night . He gave a scenario to explain the lorazepam concentration (my understanding is that Dr Shafer gave a possible scenario, maybe there could be other scenarios to explain le lorazepam concentration, we'll have to wait for the cross and defense witnesses and rebuttal) . This whole lorazepam thing is very disturbing, though I was expecting something really wrong with lorazepam, I was shocked by the 40mg amount . I hope it's adressed and they go a little further. Dr Steinberg, Kamangar and Shafer all mentionned that there was something really wrong going on with the benzos, I hope we'll get more info about that. To me it sounds as important as the propofol, and possibly goes way before what happened on june 25th. And by the way , thanks to everyone here for your input about the lorazepam issue, it was helpful.

About the propofol he gave the scenario he thinks happened, but due to the femoral concentration, pretty much ruled out any other scenario with propofol. That's a 100 ml (= 1000mg) propofol infusion between 9 am and 12. He was focusing on how you can reach the femoral concentration, so he was only talking about the last injection/infusion, not necessarily the whole amount MJ received that night. At least that's how I understood it.
 
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Still about the lorazepam issue, isn't there a law in California against overprescribing, illegal prescribing ? If so, would it fit here ?
 
Ramona122003 said:
Actually, he was telling the truth about June 24. Everyone, even Karen with her crazy self, said that Michael was great on his last night. Some even said he was glowing. This is supported by everyone including the bodyguards and the brothers, specially Jackie, who talked about how great Michael looked on TII. Btw, Jackie actually saw the raw footage while it was being edit by Kenny.

Kenny specially said Michael was sick on the June 19 and he sent him home. When he came back on the 23, Michael was well and gave one of his best rehearsals.
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I've been wondering about those two days, the 23rd & 24th. Absolutely everyone did say he was fantastic those last two rehearsals, even the grammy exec who was there. So what happened between those few days after the 19th that got him back in such great shape? Is it possible that on the 19th that he was suffering from something like a serious bout of the flu instead of the effects of Murray's doctoring, and it passed, and he rebounded strongly? The change was just so dramatic from the 19th and the 23rd, and that happens with the flu, at least for me. I can be completely out of it for a few days, and then when it passes, it's like it never happened.

Or maybe after continuous propofol use, flu like symptoms develop. I don't know. I've just been trying to figure out what happened between those few days from where MJ is in such bad shape that Ortega is wondering about his physical and mental state, to where MJ comes back and gives his best performances. I don't believe Murray did anything to help make that kind of positive difference, so that's why I've been thinking maybe it was something ordinary like the flu that runs its course and subsides.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
Also the 40mg loraz amount confuses me. anderson mentioned around 11 are these two numbers in relation to something else?
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Yes Anderson mentionned 11 to 16mg if I recall, so yes, 40mg is confusing. Someone else here said that it's possible that Walgren was just setting things with lorazepam : the defense will use lorazepam, so Walgren could be waiting for the rebuttal phase to go deeper into the lorazepam issue. I hope so.
 
Autumn II said:
That really IS the issue? For anyone who thinks differently, given the EXPERT testimony, I'll just say this IS a Michael Jackson board, lest we forget that?
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Precisely. If nothing else defense is probably scanning every open board. We don't want to tip them off, do we?
Being creative with ideas that may facilitate "reasonable doubt" may reduce the chances of conviction.
 
I believe we have to come back to the charges to understand that there is no way that "reasonable doubt" might have been raised. This is only about involuntary manslaughter now. Reasonable doubt to murder 2 is a totally different thing, but I had this impression that there is this tendency to link those two and conclude about "reasonable doubt" for this particular case.

Like somebody said, even if we believe Murray that he did that for 80 days, it does not at all make him less guilty. Imagine a situation when I am throwing a knife at the wall, but not aiming at the person standing there voluntarily and this lasts for 79 days but then instead of the wall, the knife hits the person and she dies (btw, I am talking on the phone while throwing the knife), how does it make me less guilty???
 
It makes u more guilty cause u were playing russian roulette every single day. knowing that something could go wrong on any one of those days. it wasnt a act of madness that happened once.
 
Maria MJ said:
Precisely. If nothing else defense is probably scanning every open board. We don't want to tip them off, do we?
Being creative with ideas that may facilitate "reasonable doubt" may reduce the chances of conviction.
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Bo offense to you, but I personally find this argument to be a little arrogant.

The defense had this case for the better part of two years. They also have all the evident, we don't. When this started fans thought they knew everything. I remember one fan from TV saying how they knew the case so well that they could present it better than the DA. As the days went by, however, we learned there was allot we didn't know or account for. We didn't know about the email of on the 20, Murray abandoning one of his patients and his connection to the 25, him flip-flopping at the ER, the possible lopz levels, the propofol model, ect. We thought we knew this case, but we are missing some big pieces. The defense isn't.

Just because we chose not to talk about certain things, questions, or possibilities doesn't mean other people somewhere else aren't discussing.
 
daisy said:
I believe we have to come back to the charges to understand that there is no way that "reasonable doubt" might have been raised. This is only about involuntary manslaughter now. Reasonable doubt to murder 2 is a totally different thing, but I had this impression that there is this tendency to link those two and conclude about "reasonable doubt" for this particular case.
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Right. Plus, it's not "reasonable doubt" about everything, and every part of testimony, but whether or not Murray behaved in a reckless and endangering manner. After Shafer's testimony, I doubt there can be any defense witnesses who will debunk the idea that Michael couldn't have self-medicated? That testimony was utterly clear, including the demonstrations.

daisy said:
Like somebody said, even if we believe Murray that he did that for 80 days, it does not at all make him less guilty. Imagine a situation when I am throwing a knife at the wall, but not aiming at the person standing there voluntarily and this lasts for 79 days but then instead of the wall, the knife hits the person and she dies (btw, I am talking on the phone while throwing the knife), how does it make me less guilty???
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Or, you could be engaging in that reckless behavior just ONCE, and if it ended in someone's death, the knife-thrower wold still be guilty. I also don't think the prosecution has to prove what did or did not happen on the days leading up to last night/day. The prosecution isn't saying it was the "cumluative effects of propofol, night-after-night," that led to Michael's death, but Murray's actions (and inactions) on that ONE day.
 
ONe thing that puzzled me yesterday about the demo that shaffer did of the iv set- up. Murray and the defence went nuts when the prop bottle was hung up on the stand and were mad at walgren for tampering with the plastic ring which they said had been untouched. So what did walgren do but just put the prop bottle inside the saline bag and hung it up, which tied perfectly with the bodyguards testimony and fleak's findings in the black bag. Was that a pros trap which the defence walked into?

I agree with Cinzia upthread about the reason for the bottle in the bag. Shaffer was pointing out the competing flows of the saline and prop were in part determined by their height. So murray maybe found the prop bottle being higher was flowing too fast and came up with this bright* idea of the bottle in the bag contraption to make them both the same height.

*bright as in crazy.
 
Yeah i agree bonnie. in making the prosecution announce a stipulation that made it even more obvious to the jury that murray never used the handle and supports the claims of alberto and fleek. you would have thought the defence would have tried to keep that quiet yet in having a hissy fit they pointed out the obvious even more.
 
so will the defense take the whole week next week to make their case? I remember before the delay (the first two days of this week, court wasn't in session) it was announced that Chernoff would be done with their side until the end of the week. Wonder if rebuttal is going to happen next week to, or will Chernoff take the entire week and it will be postponed to the week after?
 
She was WRONG about alot of this case,..
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I did not want to post yesterday, but since you started it I'll do.

There r documented cases of deaths caused by propofol INJECTIONS and blood concentrations DOUBLE the one detected in MJ's blood. The study done in Germany and REFUTEs everything Schafer said yesterday.

He made his whole argument based on one ASSUMPTION that MJ's breathing stopped then his heart stopped after ten minutes. In fact hypotension and cardiovascular collapse r known adverse effects after fast bolus injections of propofol and if that what happened to MJ Schafer’s whole argument WHOLE ARGUMENT crumbles.


White heard some BOLD statements yesterday and Schafer made it very easy for White to cast doubt on everything he said, and don't feel too confident there r many MANY things in MJ's body that contradict what Schafer told the jurors yesterday.

Schafer said MJ's femoral blood was very high thus he must have been hooked to an IV drip even after his death

How about a male nurse who self-injected an average 2mg/kg and died with one to two minutes of the injection even though he did not receive any drug but propofol? His blood concentration was 5.1ug/ml. That's alone will put Schafer's testimony in jeopardy.

why the defense team were mad yesterday? 40mg of lorazpam ?!! 1000mg of propofol ?!! Let's see how much of that was possible .
 
gerryevans said:
I've been wondering about those two days, the 23rd & 24th. Absolutely everyone did say he was fantastic those last two rehearsals, even the grammy exec who was there. So what happened between those few days after the 19th that got him back in such great shape? Is it possible that on the 19th that he was suffering from something like a serious bout of the flu instead of the effects of Murray's doctoring, and it passed, and he rebounded strongly? The change was just so dramatic from the 19th and the 23rd, and that happens with the flu, at least for me. I can be completely out of it for a few days, and then when it passes, it's like it never happened.

Or maybe after continuous propofol use, flu like symptoms develop. I don't know. I've just been trying to figure out what happened between those few days from where MJ is in such bad shape that Ortega is wondering about his physical and mental state, to where MJ comes back and gives his best performances. I don't believe Murray did anything to help make that kind of positive difference, so that's why I've been thinking maybe it was something ordinary like the flu that runs its course and subsides.
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Hi gerryevans, This is the million$ question. My take on this is Kenny sent Michael home on the 19th because Michael seemed out of it...like he wasn't connected, (In my opinion that could well be an effect of high dose of benzo's). There was a meeting on 20th I believe, with Randy Phillips, Frank Dileo, Murray and Michael. When Kenny turned up Murray went all out on him and Michael told Kenny 'I'll be ok'. I believe it's possible that Michael refused anymore medication from Murray at that time hence the good rehersals/performances on 23rd/24th. I guess we'll never know for sure.
 
Soundmind - But then you have to incorporate murray's interview to the police when he said that mj wasn't breathing but he had a pulse and was warm. Murray himself was suggesting a respiratory arrest and then a cardiac arrest. Of course i don't actually believe him*, but the defence are going to have to work with what murray has given them.

*re finding a pulse
 
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@Soundmind lf the defence was mad about the 40 mg of lorazpam etc they had no reason to if they could refute what Schafer at cross examination.
 
I bet this would have made for interesting listening.......
October 20, 2011
Did someone get their feelings hurt?

CNN's Alan Duke was reporting from the 12th floor of the courthouse when he heard an argument going on at the elevators behind him. He says the heated words were being exchanged between Dr. Conrad Murray's lead defense attorney, Ed Chernoff, and one of the defense experts, anesthesiologist Dr. Paul White.
He didn't want to go into details but says they were talking about people "taking things personally."

As we all know by now, Dr. White is longtime friends with Dr. Steven Shafer, who has been on the stand all day testifying for the prosecution. Dr. Shafer took a jab at Dr. White's research earlier today, saying how he was "disappointed" that his colleague would suggest Michael Jackson could have died by drinking propofol.

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/...feelings-hurt/
 
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Soundmind;3516345 said:


He made his whole argument based on one ASSUMPTION that MJ's breathing stopped then his heart stopped after ten minutes. In fact hypotension and cardiovascular collapse r known adverse effects after fast bolus injections of propofol and if that what happened to MJ Schafer’s whole argument WHOLE ARGUMENT crumbles.


White heard some BOLD statements yesterday and Schafer made it very easy for White to cast doubt on everything he said, and don't feel too confident there r many MANY things in MJ's body that contradict what Schafer told the jurors yesterday.

Schafer said MJ's femoral blood was very high thus he must have been hooked to an IV drip even after his death
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The cause of death was respiratory arrest, it is stated in the AR.
Is CM going to change his story yet again or will doctor White do it for him? At no point since June 25th until now did CM state that he did not in fact get a pulse when he found Michael. What is the reasonable doubt we're trying to discuss here? Reasonable doubt concerning Conrad Murray's declarations? He may or may not have found a pulse. He may or may not given 25 mg of Propofol. He may or may not have been there.

I told you all, in the end they'll just claim that he did absolutely nothing, but put his name on the orders and invoices.
Luckily (or sadly, depends on how one looks at it), what he did afterwards is irrefutable and there are witnesses. He did not call 911 in due time. He did not mention Propofol to anyone. He was the only person in charge of that particular patient. Who died. There is no reasonable doubt about that.
 
Soundmind, I'd really like for you to stop stating your opinion as fact ... and Dr. Google isn't really an expert.
 
twinklEE said:
so will the defense take the whole week next week to make their case? I remember before the delay (the first two days of this week, court wasn't in session) it was announced that Chernoff would be done with their side until the end of the week. Wonder if rebuttal is going to happen next week to, or will Chernoff take the entire week and it will be postponed to the week after?
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chernoff said his case would be done by wednesday if the defence had started first thing this morn. so i guess by thursday now. then rebuttal which could be a day or several.
 
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
Socrates

But what Dr Shafer said made sense to me and explains why Murray didn´t do proper CPR.
 
Popescu said:
The cause of death was respiratory arrest, it is stated in the AR.
Is CM going to change his story yet again or will doctor White do it for him? At no point since June 25th until now did CM state that he did not in fact get a pulse when he found Michael. What is the reasonable doubt we're trying to discuss here? Reasonable doubt concerning Conrad Murray's declarations? He may or may not have found a pulse. He may or may not given 25 mg of Propofol. He may or may not have been there.

I told you all, in the end they'll just claim that he did absolutely nothing, but put his name on the orders and invoices.
Luckily (or sadly, depends on how one looks at it), what he did afterwards is irrefutable and there are witnesses. He did not call 911 in due time. He did not mention Propofol to anyone. He was the only person in charge of that particular patient. Who died. There is no reasonable doubt about that.
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Of course. Everything else is pretty much red herrings, compared to that?

I'm expecting a lot of smoke-and-mirrors from the defense, and attempts at damaging the credibility of the prosecution's expert witnesses. So hey, good LUCK with that? Shafer was spectacular, as was Steinberg. I have no idea what the defense theory will be, next? A space-ship landed and little green humanoids killed Michael?
 
rita.gibson said:
Hi gerryevans, This is the million$ question. My take on this is Kenny sent Michael home on the 19th because Michael seemed out of it...like he wasn't connected, (In my opinion that could well be an effect of high dose of benzo's). There was a meeting on 20th I believe, with Randy Phillips, Frank Dileo, Murray and Michael. When Kenny turned up Murray went all out on him and Michael told Kenny 'I'll be ok'. I believe it's possible that Michael refused anymore medication from Murray at that time hence the good rehersals/performances on 23rd/24th. I guess we'll never know for sure.
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Didnt Murray asked for Vitamin boost? Maybe this is the explanation has to why MJ had great rehearsal on 23/24th.
 
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