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Murray Trial - Day 14 - October 20 - Discussion

Ramona122003 said:
All benzos are addictive, I didn't argue that they weren't. But, all the drugs Murray gave has a shorter time frame before one becomes addicted or depended. One of the medicines Michael had in his house, can't remember the name, had a two year normal time span before one became depended. You have to ask Sound which one it was, but I think it was a drug given by Dr. Adam.

But agree. On cross, we maybe get allot more information about the Lopz levels.


And twinklEE, sorry to say but that's your opinion. Most people I've met and talk to don't see it that way, that's simply a fact. This isn't coming from haters or dispassionate general public, these are people who grew up with Michael since the J5 days. They do think Murray should be held accountable for what he had done, but they also think Michael hold some responsibility because he was warn, going by Lee, about what could happened. They also bring up the question of what normal person would ask for an anesthesia to sleep. They doubt Michael though or believed propofol was just another sleep medication.
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The bolded: This is what pisses me off to high heaven about Michael's family. There should have been someone...anyone out there trying to bring understanding and compassion to the public about any sleep problems Michael had. There is a history that even older fans like myself knew of. But we heard nothing but silence. Only a few ppl trickled out to talk about it and it was quickly overlooked becuz of some new interview or BS about fall guys and interventions and things/people they couldn't name or talk about; valuable tv time was spent hawking products and overexposing his kids. It's so upsetting. Wasted opportunities. All they did was contribute to the negative and blaming MJ vibe that was already out there, imo. I am literally bitter about this fact. Such a let down and disappointment.
 
wendy2004 said:
The problem with this kind of thinking is that we ALL put ourselves at risk when we TRUST a doctor...not realizing they are could be a BAD doctor and that's whether we are in a hospital setting or not. We have no way of knowing that a doctor will screw us over until something goes wrong. If we're lucky, we survive and never go back to that doctor. I think Shafer said it best when he read from the Hippocratic oath and mentioned how ppl trust doctors and there's an expectation that they will NOT harm us. We allow them to cut into us with knives and give us drugs THAT MAY KILL US. We do it with the explicit trust that ULTIMATELY they will do these things WITHOUT causing us harm or death. Is it dangerous? Of course. Anyone having surgery is putting their life into the hands of a doctor or a team of professionals. Anyone being written a prescription for a drug that may cause them to be drowsy to the point of not being able to drive or speak or may make them throw up as a side effect STILL has an expectation that the doctor would not prescribe them a dosage that will end their life. Michael was no different, here, imo. He had every right to EXPECT Murray to NOT drop him when he put his life in Murray's hands. I'm sorry. If he cared nothing about his life Murray would not have been there in the first place.
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Very true, but it can also be argued that Michael shouldn't have been requesting the drug to begin with. It isn't that Michael didn't care about his life, but he was needlessly reckless with it. I remembered when propofol was first mentioned and no one on this board believed it. They thought it was planted, they thought it was a red-herring, they thought Lee was in it with Murray and AEG, ect. The reason why fans widely didn't believe it was because they didn't want to believe Michael was this careless. For most, even now, it's easier to believe that Michael was an addict or this was a murder plot and propofol was the perfect murder weapon.

I love Michael, but even I would be hard press not to ask why did he think this was even remotely okay. I know he only wanted to sleep and he would had used this of anything else worked. At the same time, however, when I read about him being hooked up and pumped full of drugs that may of made him sick on the June 19 to the point that he could hardly function, it does give me pause.

This is by no mean an excuse for Murray, but the weirdness of what happened is always in the back of my mind and I'm certain it's in the back of the jury's as well. Which is why I want to look at all angles and not lure myself into a false illusions that Murray can't walk. I don't believe he will, but the possibility is always there.
 
Justthefacts said:
If you had something that worked before you are going to want it again.
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Exactly, the doctors who introduced him to using Propofol as a sleep aid were effing wrong, but heck, they still did their job properly, they didn't loose him, they managed to bring him back safely. It was Murray who was incompetent and full of himself, Murray felt there was no need for proper equipment or additional help, hell, Murray even felt there was no need for him to be alert and present while Michael was under.


I agree that we have to think about the possibility of Murray getting away with this, the odds are there. There is a real danger of him getting away. But even if God forbid he somehow isn't convicted, that still doesn't change the fact that he was responsible for Michael Jackson's death, regardless of him being held responsible by law or not.
 
Justthefacts said:
If you had something that worked before you are going to want it again.
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True, but it's still an anesthesia. As Shefer said himself this is pharmacy never never land. As someone who has been in the field for decades and literally wrote the book on this drug, he had never heard of this before and that is very telling. It makes me wonder even more who the heck told Michael this was okay.

I guess my main problem is how tragic and how desperate Michael had to be to put his life in anyone's hands like this. After a lifetime of being betrayed and used by those he called his friends it seemed almost unimaginable that he would or could put himself in such a position.
 
twinklEE said:
. The issue here isn't ''OMFG what did Michael think by 'demanding' propofol'', the issue here is ''OMFG what the f_ did Murray think when he GAVE Propofol under such circumstances (lack of equipment, personel, training etc)
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That really IS the issue? For anyone who thinks differently, given the EXPERT testimony, I'll just say this IS a Michael Jackson board, lest we forget that?
 
White has freaked me out since I first set eyes on him, what's up with a doc who gets in touch with the defence to say Michael could have drank it, then having heard the evidence stacked against Murray...plus knowing he's lied like hell to just about everyone...prosecution have proved their case, yet White feel's that Murray should keep his license is beyond belief.
I was overjoyed to see Murray freak out today it's about time we saw a reaction from him...then I thought, well if an IV stand can cause that reaction can you imagine what the word 'Guilty' will do to him.
 
Ramona122003 said:
True, but it's still an anesthesia. As Shefer said himself this is pharmacy never never land. As someone who has been in the field for decades and literally wrote the book on this drug, he had never heard of this before and that is very telling. It makes me wonder even more who the heck told Michael this was okay.

I guess my main problem is how tragic and how desperate Michael had to be to put his life in anyone's hands like this. After a lifetime of being betrayed and used by those he called his friends it seemed almost unimaginable that he would or could put himself in such a position.
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Bottom line? This was NOT Michael's fault! It was NOT!
 
Michael hired a doctor to look after him. Is this reckless behavior, is this careless behavior? He didn't hire any old doctor, he didn't hire a general practitioner or a veterinarian or a nutritionist. No, he hired a cardiologist a doctor specializing in the care of the heart. This would normally be considered prudent. IMO.
If, Since, Michael had experience with propofol in the past, with a good outcome evidenced by his remaining alive, he no doubt felt comfortable with the idea of using it now. We have no earthly idea if he knew the risks of the drug, do we? I mean, do we? WE know, now, much about this drug. But did Michael? Or do we assume he must have known because, well, he just must have. We don't know if Murray told him the risks do we? Well, some might say, he should have known since he used it before. Oh really? Maybe his experiences were with anesthesiologists, experts in this area. Maybe murray reassured him that he could take care of all of it himself. The fact of the matter is that we don't know what really went on in that bedroom for all those weeks. Even now, it is only speculation, assumption, hypotheses, and whatever murray says. I don't think we'll ever know.
But to say Michael was careless with his life, no, I just don't go along with that.
 
Ramona122003 said:
Very true, but it can also be argued that Michael shouldn't have been requesting the drug to begin with. It isn't that Michael didn't care about his life, but he was needlessly reckless with it. I remembered when propofol was first mentioned and no one on this board believed it. They thought it was planted, they thought it was a red-herring, they thought Lee was in it with Murray and AEG, ect. The reason why fans widely didn't believe it was because they didn't want to believe Michael was this careless. For most, even now, it's easier to believe that Michael was an addict or this was a murder plot and propofol was the perfect murder weapon.

I love Michael, but even I would be hard press not to ask why did he think this was even remotely okay. I know he only wanted to sleep and he would had used this of anything else worked. At the same time, however, when I read about him being hooked up and pumped full of drugs that may of made him sick on the June 19 to the point that he could hardly function, it does give me pause.

This is by no mean an excuse for Murray, but the weirdness of what happened is always in the back of my mind and I'm certain it's in the back of the jury's as well. Which is why I want to look at all angles and not lure myself into a false illusions that Murray can't walk. I don't believe he will, but the possibility is always there.
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I get that you don't want to get too confident just yet. I've tried to reign myself in as well, but just like in 2005 it's just one of those feelings where when things are going well, go with it...until a snag is hit. Until I hear/see something that gives me pause, I'm staying positive 100%. And right now, IMO, Murray is on the train to TOASTVILLE. If that changes tomorrow or next week, then it changes.

Justthefacts said:
If you had something that worked before you are going to want it again.
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This is true...especially if no obvious harm came to you or was done to you. (not saying it was right...just saying)
 
rita.gibson said:
White has freaked me out since I first set eyes on him, what's up with a doc who gets in touch with the defence to say Michael could have drank it, then having heard the evidence stacked against Murray...plus knowing he's lied like hell to just about everyone...prosecution have proved their case, yet White feel's that Murray should keep his license is beyond belief.
I was overjoyed to see Murray freak out today it's about time we saw a reaction from him...then I thought, well if an IV stand can cause that reaction can you imagine what the word 'Guilty' will do to him.
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Honestly, I want him to freak out and loose his control, today we saw a glimpse of the real Conrat Murray, the Murray, and imo it was quiet scary, Murray is frightening. He ain't the persona he tries to portray, those fake crocodile tears of his at the beggining of the trial, were just that fake. What's real was his reaction today, him rolling his eyes is real, him being an arrogant asshole is reality, his reation today was real. I hope the jury saw how he behaved shaking his head, and rolling his eyes, for a second I thought this giant was about to get up and throw something around.
 
This might not be my place to say but we all want the same outcome. I think some are just pointing out what others are saying especially non fans. I know I get that from people I talk to at work etc. It is too early to tell what will happen because we have no idea what the jury is thinking and what the defense will do. We have to stick together because if god forbid Murray gets off we will need the support to get through it.
 
Ramona122003 said:
True, but it's still an anesthesia. As Shefer said himself this is pharmacy never never land. As someone who has been in the field for decades and literally wrote the book on this drug, he had never heard of this before and that is very telling. It makes me wonder even more who the heck told Michael this was okay.

I guess my main problem is how tragic and how desperate Michael had to be to put his life in anyone's hands like this. After a lifetime of being betrayed and used by those he called his friends it seemed almost unimaginable that he would or could put himself in such a position.
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I know what Propofol is and I also think he knew what it was. I am covinced that Michael knew Propfol was dangerous and I really want and hope that Dr Adams is going to tesitfy because I want to hear more about Michael wanting to hire him and Murray overruled Michael and hired himself
 
I agree, so far the prosecution has done a good job in proving their case, but the defense haven't started yet. Right now we really have no idea about the outcome, so personally I'm kind of hestiant to predict a conviction. I'll rather wait until the jury has decided.
 
Ramona122003 said:
All benzos are addictive, I didn't argue that they weren't. But, all the drugs Murray gave has a shorter time frame before one becomes addicted or depended. One of the medicines Michael had in his house, can't remember the name, had a two year normal time span before one became depended. You have to ask Sound which one it was, but I think it was a drug given by Dr. Adam.
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Never heard of a benzo that doesn't get addictive for 2 years. It's always said to never use them for longer than about 3 weeks.
 
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Ramona122003 said:
I agree, but the problem is we haven't heard the defense's case. As T-Mez said, the DA should be winning at this state. It's too early to say that the defense is toast and everything is in the bag.

Also, some people do take issue to what Michael was willing to do to himself to get 'sleep'. We have fans on this forum that all but called Michael a mental case who couldn't make his own decisions. I'm sure Michael expected Murray to take care of him, but he put himself in a position where he was at someone's complete and utter mercy. This isn't like going to surgery when you have a team of people taking care of you, he left his entire life in the hands of one person. To most, that's unbelievable, especially if he was warn that this drug could kill him.

People may agree with Murray was responsibility, but those same people would also point out that Michael had a responsibility too not to take this drug and risk his own life over a couple hours of sleep. Which is the primary reason why this case isn't murder two.
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As we all heard from professional doctors who said cm simply should have said"NO".
 
Milka said:
Never heard of a Benzo that doesn't get addictive for 2 years. It's always said to never use them for longer than about 3 weeks.
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agree with that I had benzo's prescribed myself and the doctor always warned about depedency clearly stating they shouldn't be taken longer than 3 to 5 weeks (in my case).
 
The last time I predidcted a guilty verdit (Casey Anthony) I was so very wrong. So I am not going to say anything
 
mjistheonlyone said:
As we all heard from professional doctors who said cm simply should have said"NO".
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Exactly. And that goes for any other doctor that Michael would have allegedly gone to had Murray quit the job. To me, Murray had a choice as well. It's all on him that he made the wrong choice. That is nobody's fault but his own. And he needs to go to jail for that. This is all just my opinion
 
Whatever White is going to say the DA already knows. Just like Murray's lawyers knew what Shaffer was going to say. Lets just wait
 
twinklEE said:
Honestly, I want him to freak out and loose his control, today we saw a glimpse of the real Conrat Murray, the Murray, and imo it was quiet scary, Murray is frightening. He ain't the persona he tries to portray, those fake crocodile tears of his at the beggining of the trial, were just that fake. What's real was his reaction today, him rolling his eyes is real, him being an arrogant asshole is reality, his reation today was real. I hope the jury saw how he behaved shaking his head, and rolling his eyes, for a second I thought this giant was about to get up and throw something around.
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For sure, now we have a glimpse of what Kenny saw and I bet it scared Michael too.
 
cinzia said:
Michael hired a doctor to look after him. Is this reckless behavior, is this careless behavior? He didn't hire any old doctor, he didn't hire a general practitioner or a veterinarian or a nutritionist. No, he hired a cardiologist a doctor specializing in the care of the heart. This would normally be considered prudent. IMO.
If, Since, Michael had experience with propofol in the past, with a good outcome evidenced by his remaining alive, he no doubt felt comfortable with the idea of using it now. We have no earthly idea if he knew the risks of the drug, do we? I mean, do we? WE know, now, much about this drug. But did Michael? Or do we assume he must have known because, well, he just must have. We don't know if Murray told him the risks do we? Well, some might say, he should have known since he used it before. Oh really? Maybe his experiences were with anesthesiologists, experts in this area. Maybe murray reassured him that he could take care of all of it himself. The fact of the matter is that we don't know what really went on in that bedroom for all those weeks. Even now, it is only speculation, assumption, hypotheses, and whatever murray says. I don't think we'll ever know.
But to say Michael was careless with his life, no, I just don't go along with that.
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The main problem I have with that is that Michael was a well read and verse person. He liked reading about medicines and how the body works. Granted most of this came from Toya's first book, but she was mostly truthful in that book.

I really have a hard time believing, imo of course, that Michael knew nothing of this drug. Even a lay person could use google or wikipedia to learn that propofol is an anesthesia, not sleep medication. If you chose to believe Lee, I personally have mix feelings about her, she warned Michael and read him the PDF. If Michael did ask other doctors about this drug, I can't believe none of them told or warn him about what could happen. I can't believe Michael met nothing but shady doctors throughout his life.

If Michael did know that propofol was an anesthesia, why would he chose a cardiologist? A cardiologist isn't an anesthesiologist who knows and works with this drugs and therefore knows its power and effects. Now, who can surmise or theorize that Murray was hired as a second hand in case something went wrong and Michael wanted another doctor to go along. Which I do believe is likely, but then I wonder how Murray convince Michael that he could do the job to two doctors.

We may never know these answers either way, but we just have a different of opinion on the matter. I don't think Michael was reckless as much as desperate and Murray took advantage of him.
 
mjistheonlyone said:
As we all heard from professional doctors who said cm simply should have said"NO".
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Agree, but will the jury think it's that simple?

If they do, will they believe it's enough to convince someone of manslaughter. As someone pointed out, including T-Mez, the jury may see this as more of a civil or malpractice case than manslaughter.


Also Milka, as I said you have to talk to Sound. She had several posts on the subject about the drugs found in Michael's room and I remember her writing that one of those drugs had a slow build up towards depend. I may had gotten the two year time wrong, but it was more than a couple of weeks.
 
rita.gibson said:
For sure, now we have a glimpse of what Kenny saw and I bet it scared Michael too.
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I'm sure it did, I was sitting behind a computer screen and honest to God his reaction scared the ish out of me. I can't imagine how people must have felt who actually got to see his true self in reality.
 
Ramona122003 said:
Also Milka, as I said you have to talk to Sound. She had several posts on the subject about the drugs found in Michael's room and I remember her writing that one of those drugs had a slow build up towards depend. I may had gotten the two year time wrong, but it was more than a couple of weeks.
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That sounds more like an antidepressant and that you maybe got it wrong, because they usually take days to weeks, depending on the med, before they start to work (if they work at all and you don't have too many side effects and have to stop taking them). And it can take months or years sometimes, before they have the desired effect.

Benzos all work the same way in the body, so I really doubt that there are benzos like that. If there were any, doctors would only prescribe those instead of the ones that get you addicted within just a few weeks. Also, from what I remember about the meds that were found, they were all highly addictive benzos and there also was an antidepressant.
 
twinklEE said:
I'm sure it did, I was sitting behind a computer screen and honest to God his reaction scared the ish out of me. I can't imagine how people must have felt who actually got to see his true self in reality.
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6ft 5in body builder, I hope they have them handcuffs ready on verdict day.
 
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