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Murray Trial - Day 14 - October 20 - Discussion
- Thread starter ivy
- Start date
elusive moonwalker
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now onto the concentrations of diprivan. u can tell the concentrations depending on how much was given.
you give a dose of a drug. from that you get a concentration level. and from the concentration level you get an effect from the drug given. if the concentration level changes the effect changes.
he did tests on the concentration levels of diprivan. shaffer created the rules on dosages what dosage gets put in machines is based on his studies.
diprivan doesnt act in the blood it acts in the brain. so the brain concentration is important the brain is called the effect site.. did a study by measuring the brain waves to work out the brain concentration without doing brain surgery! paul white worked on this study with him they worked out how much diprivan needs to be in the brain to stop someone from breathing. 2.3mg per ml. is when half of paitents might stop breathing. but every paitent is diff so they added a range plus or minus .5 so it covers a wide amount of paitents. two standard deveations. 1.3-3.3mg pml is the range for ppl to stop breathing when given diprivan
you give a dose of a drug. from that you get a concentration level. and from the concentration level you get an effect from the drug given. if the concentration level changes the effect changes.
he did tests on the concentration levels of diprivan. shaffer created the rules on dosages what dosage gets put in machines is based on his studies.
diprivan doesnt act in the blood it acts in the brain. so the brain concentration is important the brain is called the effect site.. did a study by measuring the brain waves to work out the brain concentration without doing brain surgery! paul white worked on this study with him they worked out how much diprivan needs to be in the brain to stop someone from breathing. 2.3mg per ml. is when half of paitents might stop breathing. but every paitent is diff so they added a range plus or minus .5 so it covers a wide amount of paitents. two standard deveations. 1.3-3.3mg pml is the range for ppl to stop breathing when given diprivan
82Thriller84
Proud Member
Dr White knows the defence is screwed, so he's just looking around the room to see if he can do some drawing on his notepad! :lol:
82Thriller84
Proud Member
Walgren: So, Michael received more than 25mg of Propofol?
Dr. Shaffer: Yes, Michael received more than 25mg.
Dr. Shaffer thinks that it's likely Michael would have stopped breathing if given 50mg of Propofol.
Dr. Shaffer: Yes, Michael received more than 25mg.
Dr. Shaffer thinks that it's likely Michael would have stopped breathing if given 50mg of Propofol.
Last edited:
elusive moonwalker
Guests
how long does it take for circulation to stop after u stop breathing was part of the study.it takes 9 mins from stopping breathing to the heart stop beating when tested on pigs . shaffer used the number of 10 mins as a human is bigger than a pig and mj was on oxygen so it would take longer.
shaffer went through lots of diff senarios as to what happened with mj based on the data he had. shaffer rejected a few senarios based on the evidence.
. the level of dip in the femoral blood was very near to the amount that would cause you to stop breathing. concentration levels drop very quickly due to the liver and other tissues. brain concentrations goes up after the first injection as it takes time for the dip to get to the brain. afterwards the brain levels drop more slowly than in the rest of the body. showing that a small % of ppl given 25mg would be expected to stop breathing. theres a timeframe when someone whos been give 25mg could be expected to stop breathing. taking benzos ontop increases that risk. what mj had in him increased his risk.even if he had been given just 25mg.
shaffer doesnt think this is what happened to mj. mj got more than 25mg. murray said in the interview he gave lidocaine and diprivan in equal mixture so a full syringe with half lidocaine and half diprivan was injected via bolus. 50 mg of diprivan is what was given in shaffers opinion. would 50mg stop mj breathing ontop of the other drugs given.?yes it would. he thinks mj stopped breathing between 1-min and 3-4 mins after the bolus was given. after that the heart would keep beating for at least another 10 mins. this info doesnt support a TOD of around noon. (is walgren gonna say mj was long gone before noon?) shaffer rules out one single dose of 50mg was given
shaffer went through lots of diff senarios as to what happened with mj based on the data he had. shaffer rejected a few senarios based on the evidence.
. the level of dip in the femoral blood was very near to the amount that would cause you to stop breathing. concentration levels drop very quickly due to the liver and other tissues. brain concentrations goes up after the first injection as it takes time for the dip to get to the brain. afterwards the brain levels drop more slowly than in the rest of the body. showing that a small % of ppl given 25mg would be expected to stop breathing. theres a timeframe when someone whos been give 25mg could be expected to stop breathing. taking benzos ontop increases that risk. what mj had in him increased his risk.even if he had been given just 25mg.
shaffer doesnt think this is what happened to mj. mj got more than 25mg. murray said in the interview he gave lidocaine and diprivan in equal mixture so a full syringe with half lidocaine and half diprivan was injected via bolus. 50 mg of diprivan is what was given in shaffers opinion. would 50mg stop mj breathing ontop of the other drugs given.?yes it would. he thinks mj stopped breathing between 1-min and 3-4 mins after the bolus was given. after that the heart would keep beating for at least another 10 mins. this info doesnt support a TOD of around noon. (is walgren gonna say mj was long gone before noon?) shaffer rules out one single dose of 50mg was given
JMie
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i can't believe the things I see. how much propofol was there?? poor Michael.
82Thriller84
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volitional
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I like how he's saying self injection would require a bit of time and control...If Michael is on all those drugs and is supposed to have done this in 2 mins, not likely
Would need good vein to inject in vein - something Murray said Michael didn't have.
Multiple injections of propofol also unlikely as, as need an hour an half to simulate for self-injection and would fall asleep during each injection.
Slowly by slowly the defence case is being debunked
Would need good vein to inject in vein - something Murray said Michael didn't have.
Multiple injections of propofol also unlikely as, as need an hour an half to simulate for self-injection and would fall asleep during each injection.
Slowly by slowly the defence case is being debunked
JMie
Guests
I know what you mean.... I am listening to the testimony and can't believe the things I am hearing... I don't even have words to describe Murray anymore....
AllForLove
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I hope all CM's patients are watching this trial, and see how "good" is their doctor. :angry:
elusive moonwalker
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if mj was given 100mg he would stop breathing within 1 minute. heart would beat for another 10. shaffer rules out mj being given 1 single dose of 100mg based on the concentration levels.
shaffer talking about self injection and how hard it would be. 2 possibilities to self inject you could stick the needle in your own vein. but murray said mj had bad viens so that doesnt fit. and diprivan stings. would be painful if u miss the vien.
6 injections 50 mgs is another theory. 50 mg would put u to sleep on its own. mj would be out so wouldnt be able to self inject, he would have to wait till the levels went down then wake up. 1hrs 30 timeframe given for 6 injections thats how long it would take mj to do that. because he needs to wake up and come around. shaffer says this senario doesn fit says shaffer based on the levels
this is getting confusing. walgren needs to get to the point.
another theory based over 3 hours 6 injections of 100ml each. one 100ml shot would prob be fatal on its own says shaffer. this didnt happen based on the levels found. mjs fem blood level was higher than if he was given 600ml? thats what i think shaffer is saying. more than 600ml in mj???
lunch break till 1345
shaffer talking about self injection and how hard it would be. 2 possibilities to self inject you could stick the needle in your own vein. but murray said mj had bad viens so that doesnt fit. and diprivan stings. would be painful if u miss the vien.
6 injections 50 mgs is another theory. 50 mg would put u to sleep on its own. mj would be out so wouldnt be able to self inject, he would have to wait till the levels went down then wake up. 1hrs 30 timeframe given for 6 injections thats how long it would take mj to do that. because he needs to wake up and come around. shaffer says this senario doesn fit says shaffer based on the levels
this is getting confusing. walgren needs to get to the point.
another theory based over 3 hours 6 injections of 100ml each. one 100ml shot would prob be fatal on its own says shaffer. this didnt happen based on the levels found. mjs fem blood level was higher than if he was given 600ml? thats what i think shaffer is saying. more than 600ml in mj???
lunch break till 1345
82Thriller84
Proud Member
I don't think what Murray actually did to Michael as we're finding out now, will actually sink in until the Trial is all said and done. :sigh: Truly Inconceivable & Unbelievable.
It's getting really scary, something doesn't add up and I'm very upset.
82Thriller84
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Lunch Break is now
volitional
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even if he gave 6 injections the level you would get would not be at the level they found in autopsy...so how much did Murray give him?
smoothlugar
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Incredible, even in that crazy scenario for purposes of discussion with self-administration of 100mg, several times (said he would have died after the first or the second), STILL FEMORAL BLOOD WOULD BE MUCH LOWER!!!!
Autumn II
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Autumn II
Proud Member
Yeah, something does NOT add up. The witness is fantastic, and has explained everything step-by-step. The "SlX self-injections" totally rule out Michael giving HIMSELF the propofol. The amounts seem much too high for a simple mistake, by Murray. I'd say, yeah, something does not add up, and it IS getting scary now.
15 to 80 times of the daily dose of Lorazepam ... why would a doctor do that?
There's no way in hell that Michael self injected. But what i dont get is how someone can let another person(so-called doctor) put all that junk into his body.
Also. How can MJ have survived those other 79 nights???
Also. How can MJ have survived those other 79 nights???
That's the big question, how did he survive the other 79 nights ... seems impossible, so something was done differently that night ... and then the question would be ... what and why?
I agree.