Murray Trial- Day 15 -October 21st

[cinzia]

CNN also mentioned this in an article, basically saying that if the pros really cant show HOW MJ died the jury might have a hard time to come to an agreement.Because frankly its important to at least get a picture of how MJ died.

However, they can reason that had murray not left the room then Michael would not have died: If he did it himself, murray's presence would have prevented it. At least we hope so. If Murray had called 911, done proper CPR, if all those things we have heard about had been in place, Michael would not have died. So while it would be great to "know" exactly how Michael lost his life, I think all of the presented lapses and omissions by murray should be so overwhelming that no reasonable person woiuld have trouble finding him guilty. I guess the bottom line is had cm acted as a competent professional who should have been able to foresee the potential results of his actions (or inactions) , Michael would be here today. I think that no matter how the defense and White present their case, they cannot make these omissions and blatant disregard for prudent care just disappear. What happened, happened. The equipment wasn't there, the backups weren't in place, the emergency was not handled correctly and on and on....these are facts. Let's hope the jury will place the blame where it belongs.

thanks a lot!, so one final question.. when people say that the tubing is missing, what are they talking about hehe? so one set of tubing was recovered... but there must have been another one too which is now missing?

sorry for asking, im confused

No problem, happy to help. The idea is that murray was dripping in the propofol directly from the propofol bottle. In order to do that, a particular type of IV tubing was needed. This tubing would then have been piggy backed into the Y connector of the primary IV tubing from the NS bag to allow the propofol to infuse along with the NS. This tubing has not been recovered and probably walked out in cm pant's pocket.

 

[Thrill]

^^^^^THANKS cinzia.. i got it now

And I would like to know the time of death! Nobody spoke about that, and it's important ! The coroner must knows that, why Walgren didn't asked him that?

I also wonder about this. I remember a year ago many people thought MJ passe away much earlier than 12pm...

Later on, her girlfriend at the phone would testify she heard commotion, and some noise like coughing, which Dr. Shaffer said that "noise" made in the throat, which he produced in the courtroom, would be associated with the airway obstruction...
.

Airway obstruction, the patient is alive, right?? If those noises were of MJ struggling for air, does that indicates he was alive?

 

[twinklEE]

yeah back in 09 when the autopsy results came in and we had a bit of a clue what was going on, we thought he had passed around 9.30 am around the time murray was calling folks in houston, to tell them to get stuff out of the storage.

 

[Autumn II]

Agree with all except the jury should not have any knowledge of the scumbag remark, if they are adhering to their instructions...but it is wonderful for the rest of us!
Now, is it possible for a lawyer decide during a trial that he/she does not want to continue to defend the client? Just for discussion, what if one of murray's lawyers were to bail out?

And if murray told white one thing but in the interview with police said something different, wouldn't White have to base his opinions on the same info as Dr. S and the rest? Which would mean that initially he might have had one opinion but now has to have a different one. I think it'd be great to see him get up on the stand and be compelled by data to support the prosecution...

In a perfect world, witnesses tell the TRUTH. The water is somewhat muddied here by the fact that it's likely that White is being PAID to testify a certain way. So, technically it's possible, but not very likely.

It's very possible for an attorney to decide mid-stream not to defend a client. This article discusses:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...kYIoFm&sig=AHIEtbRXuRWUSYO8-iSRCtpuCbLTEdUQIA

 

[Popescu]

Sorry if this has been previously discussed, but did anyone stop to think that maybe Murray's girlfriend is not telling the truth about what she heard? It is possible that she was instructed afterwards to say she heard coughing sounds in order to back up CM story that Michael was alive at that time.

 

[xthunderx2]

Sorry if this has been previously discussed, but did anyone stop to think that maybe Murray's girlfriend is not telling the truth about what she heard? It is possible that she was instructed afterwards to say she heard coughing sounds in order to back up CM story that Michael was alive at that time.

yup..I thought about that too...the only problem is again there is no way to prove that she didn't hear it...and that she IS lieing,

 

[ivy]

Sorry if this has been previously discussed, but did anyone stop to think that maybe Murray's girlfriend is not telling the truth about what she heard? It is possible that she was instructed afterwards to say she heard coughing sounds in order to back up CM story that Michael was alive at that time.

even though she might be lying, she's putting the time of Michael being in trouble to around 11:55. That's still a huge delay to call for help. and murray didn't say that he heard MJ cough. he said he realized he wasn't breathing because his stomach wasn't moving.

 

[twinklEE]

unfortunately we will never know, the odds of Sade Anding lying are 50/50 imo. It's very well possible that she was instructed by either Murray and/or his lawyers afterwards.
It sucks that the coroner wasn't able to establish a TOD, by all accounts it's very well likely that Michael passed way before noon.

 

[cinzia]

I think that if that had happened it would have been a real risk for cm. Suppose cm and sa had a falling out and she 'confessed'...it would be the end for him. I do think this was brought up a long time back somewhere I remember reading about the idea but when, where, I have no idea...But hey who knows, right? Truth is an endangered species around murray.

 

[Soundmind]

Chernoff or was it Flanagn ? got sade Andying to say she did not know whether the coughing was coming from mj or murray. I believe one of them asked her could it have been Murray? and she said yes. So hearing coughing was not in Murray's favour at all .

From everything we heard of their cross, they r going to claim Murray left longer and when he came back MJ was already dead and calling 911 would not have changed the outcome, Andying indicating MJ was still alive at that point Murray with him, epecially if the defense r arguing a rapid injection killed him was never a good scenario for them .

 

[Justthefacts]

But if that is what they are going to claim they will be admitting that Murray lied to the cops with his lawyer sitting right there. Not just a little lie but lied about everything from the CPR to the heart rate everything. Now even tho we know he was lying it i not to good to do that in front of the jury

 

[cinzia]

So they will say Michael was already dead and cm lied about how long he was gone, lied about body temperature, lied about seeing the pulse ox recording 122 beats which will then lead to speculation that everything murray did was to cover himself and naturally call into question whether anything murray claims can be relied upon as truth. Well, of course, we know the answer here.

 

[jaydom7]

But if that is what they are going to claim they will be admitting that Murray lied to the cops with his lawyer sitting right there. Not just a little lie but lied about everything from the CPR to the heart rate everything. Now even tho we know he was lying it i not to good to do that in front of the jury

Exactly.. Because Murray told the cops that MJ had a pulse which means he was still alive. That is what Steinberg was saying. That if Michael still had a pulse, as to Murray's words, then Mike was savable. So the defense is willing to concede that Murray is a liar and reckless doctor? he left a patient under anesthesia for about 30 minutes instead of 2 minutes which means he abandoned his patient and is still reckless.

 

[jaydom7]

So they will say Michael was already dead and cm lied about how long he was gone, lied about body temperature, lied about seeing the pulse ox recording 122 beats which will then lead to speculation that everything murray did was to cover himself and naturally call into question whether anything murray claims can be relied upon as truth. Well, of course, we know the answer here.

Exactly.. Walgren will pounce on that.

 

[Petrarose]

There was another doc the defense approached first to testify for Conrad Murray as an expert, but the doc declined, this is the interview mentioning this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es5suvGQOj4&feature=player_embedded



anyways, the guy recently tweeted this about Dr. White.

drfriedberg
Barry Friedberg MD
@mccartneyAP Dr. Paul White's alcoholic excesses at anesthesia meetings are as legendary as his hitting on female saleswomen.

Seems like White's got issues of his own.

Ha Twinkle I remember that doc. He was outside the court the first day of trial with us talking about Muarry. He had on his lab coat nd said the defense wanted him to testify for Muarry but he declined. He called Muarry a psychotic who was only interested in women. The doc had a little group in front of him, so by now every one knows his stance on Muarry.
It is good that he knows about White too. Maybe the pros will ask White if he made his theories under the influence.

 

[Soundmind]

yes that's what they will claim, at least that's what they have been implying in their cross because it is really the only way to overcome the delay in 911 and the serious damage done by Dr.Steinberg testimony in that regard .Let's forget what he claimed, what Alvarez said about the oximeter? He saw him grap it and put it on MJ's finger AFTER he entered the room, so the 122 figure he gave was a damn lie and we all know it.

All the experts relied on that statement to prove his negligence even more which was great, but unfortunatley relying on his statement to figure out what happened was not a great idea.

He lied and he will be forced to admit he lied , there is no escape but to his defense saying he left for 5 minutes is much better than sticking to 2 minutes and leaving the door open for experts to say MJ could have been helped .

So they will say Michael was already dead and cm lied about how long he was gone, lied about body temperature, lied about seeing the pulse ox recording 122 beats which will then lead to speculation that everything murray did was to cover himself and naturally call into question whether anything murray claims can be relied upon as truth. Well, of course, we know the answer here.

leaving for 5 minutes is more than enough for MJ's life to end if hypotension , cardiovascullar collapse in addition to apena caused his death. But within 5 minutes MJ's body would still be warm.

 

[Ramona122003]

yes that's what they will claim, at least that's what they have been implying in their cross because it is really the only way to overcome the delay in 911 and the serious damage done by Dr.Steinberg testimony in that regard .Let's forget what he claimed, what Alvarez said about the oximeter? He saw him grap it and put it on MJ's finger AFTER he entered the room, so the 122 figure he gave was a damn lie and we all know it.

All the experts relied on that statement to prove his negligence even more which was great, but unfortunatley relying on his statement to figure out what happened was not a great idea.

He lied and he will be forced to admit he lied , there is no escape but to his defense saying he left for 5 minutes is much better than sticking to 2 minutes and leaving the door open for experts to say MJ could have been helped .

The problem being once he admits he lied about how long he was gone and if Michael was still alive or not, it brings everything he said into question including the drugs he gave and how he gave it.

The defense has been using the fact that there was no charts as a plus, it will bite them in the end because the defense all falls on Murray's word alone. Why would the jury believe he going gave 4mg of Lopz and didn't give an infusion the day of the 25 despite given it every other day based on his word alone? The defense can't really backtrack and say Murray did lie about this, this, and that, but he told the truth about the other stuff.

 

[Petrarose]

In summation the pros will reiterate all the mistakes Muarry made including putting the oximeter on Michael's finger after he died/or while dying. One of the few things he had to save Michael's life was lying useless on the floor. The pros will tie all these things up and paint an even clearer picture for the jury. Now let's see what White has to say this week.

 

[adrianmonk]

Interesting (& not at all surprising) things I found about Dr. Shafer vs. Dr. White...


Dr. Shafer: Just like how he refuses to take money for testimony, he refuses to take money from Big Pharma, in spite of his major interests being in pharmacology! (such a good doc! :wub:
http://www.anesthesia-analgesia.org/site/editors/edshell.dtl?sshafer



Dr. White: Wheras the other side of the table... major kickbacks here, he has a huge list of pharmaceutical companies paying him off (unethical imo, although it's a huge problem w/docs unfortunately! docs should do what's right, not what pays!):
http://www.anesthesia-analgesia.org/site/editors/edshell.dtl?pwhite

 

[8701girl]

We had a famous case in my country this year where a doctor was charged with homocide on a baby (giving lethal dose of a drug). The doc got aquitted because they couldnt prove how the baby actually died.

I think im just worried honestly because Murray was reckless all those other nights as well but MJ did survive those nights, but what went wrong on June 25th and thats perhaps its so important for the pros to prove how MJ died on June 25th... ok im gonna stop rambling *sigh*

Omg that poor baby

Im worried too

 

[Petrarose]

Adrian good points. I noticed that in stressing the reasons why he does not charge he shows he takes his profession seriously and does not want it to be tainted by the likes of Muarry. White no doubt is going to be the opposite. I am really looking forward to the cross of White, and I expect Walgren has some experts to help him prepare for the medical cross. Isn't it interesting that the defense needed an expert doc to be at their side every day, and the pros did not. Muarry's bill is going to be hefty, and if the lawyers and White think they will make a good name for themselves by being associated with this trial, they are going to be sorry.

 

[Soundmind]

re lorazepam , Anderson did a new test , right? he is going to be recalled on rebuttal to testify to his new findings. His findings were not used by doctor Schafer, he was not asked to rule out the oral lorazepam ( at least 4 hours prior to death) based on anything the prosecutors found but merely on a paragraph at the beginning of the report prepared by the lab who done the tests for the defense. So my understanding there is MORE info , more tests were done that would help rule out the oral lorazepam .

 

[bouee]

Yes, Walgren said he would re call Dr Anderson during rebuttal

 

[HumanNature2210]

Thanks for the info re : Dr Shafer vs. Dr White.

I would love for Walgren to ask if Dr White is getting paid for his service to Murray. In addition, I would love Walgren to ask Dr White a very simple question - does he think that Murray's action/inaction, all 17 of them identified by Dr Shafer to be grossly negligent is acceptable to him as a doctor. That will be interesting to hear. I can imagine him saying that Murray acted within the standard of care and not kill his career. Well, you never know. Perhaps, he has too much to drink?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

[/B]I agree with your post.The problem is that the defense has thrown out SO MANY theories as to HOW MJ died that THEY dont even know what to present to the jury, As far as the pros goes...they have already imo painted a clear enough picture,,(even with parts missing) of how Michael died. The scene told a story,,,the witness told their stories...and Michael's remains told a story....so I would hope that the jurors are smart enough to put it all together and see that what happened to Michael was atleast worth a 4 year sentence, The pros has presented a very good case...I have seen other jurors have less to work with in other IM cases and get a conviction,

There was a blog posted by insession in the article thread. and they were going on saying the pros still havnt said what they thought happened and if the jury dont at least have an idea there maybe problems. This was a day or so before shaffer testifyed.shaffer gave a very easy to understand theory of what happened.a very logical theory based on the evidence he had.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Sorry if this has been previously discussed, but did anyone stop to think that maybe Murray's girlfriend is not telling the truth about what she heard? It is possible that she was instructed afterwards to say she heard coughing sounds in order to back up CM story that Michael was alive at that time.

but even if she is lieing that lie now hurts murray as hes now claiming he found mj gone beyond help. tbh i didnt get the impression she was lieing during her testimony i thought she was pretty compelling

 

[elusive moonwalker]

re lorazepam , Anderson did a new test , right? he is going to be recalled on rebuttal to testify to his new findings. His findings were not used by doctor Schafer, he was not asked to rule out the oral lorazepam ( at least 4 hours prior to death) based on anything the prosecutors found but merely on a paragraph at the beginning of the report prepared by the lab who done the tests for the defense. So my understanding there is MORE info , more tests were done that would help rule out the oral lorazepam .

shaffer explained how the defence had got the wrong figures by adding together the metabolite level and the acual drug.anderson re did his test to make sure his original figures were correct. shafer mentioned the whole 1/43 of a tablet findings. walgren said they will prob recall anderson during rebuttal to reiterate the findings and the mistake the defence made in how they tested.but shaffer has explained how the defence got that fake figure

 

[smoothlugar]

when people say that the tubing is missing, what are they talking about hehe? so one set of tubing was recovered... but there must have been another one too which is now missing?

The idea is that murray was dripping in the propofol directly from the propofol bottle. In order to do that, a particular type of IV tubing was needed. This tubing would then have been piggy backed into the Y connector of the primary IV tubing from the NS bag to allow the propofol to infuse along with the NS. This tubing has not been recovered and probably walked out in cm pant's pocket.

To illustrate better:
The propofol 100ml vial found in the scene had a mark on its rubber stopper that both the coroner and Dr. Shaffer testified was caused by a spike and not by a needle with a syringe to extract the substance.

​

This is a vented IV set with the spike, similar to the one probably used to produce such mark on the stopper. And the one which is missing.

​

 

[qbee]

^^ Thank you - that makes it easier to explain and based on the fact Murray was trying to hide other evidence
it very probable that he would have also hid and taken the tubing out in his pocket.

 

[ivy]

for clarification. this is a demonstration of a piggyback system. and they are saying that one tubing - the one from propofol to the saline bag- is missing.