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Murray Trial Day 20. October 28th

elusive moonwalker said:

based on murrays statement does it accualty match what murray said. yes it accuratly describes the amount in an AVERAGE person (average is the defences favourite word) if the doses murray gave is true as murray said is that a dangerous situation? no not at all. (but thats not what was in mj so its irrelvent)
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That's the point... so I really cannot understand his testimony... sigh
 
Bonnie Blue said:
So murray knocked out mj on anesthetic for 2 months straight and then just used minimal sedation levels on 25th june. I see, v believable.
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Exactly^^, and tell me if you were only giving a patient a little amount that was legal why would you hide the fact to the EMT and ER staff. What are you afraid of.
 
Petrarose said:
So far I do not seen any significant information from this report to cause an innocent verdict, unless there is some more information in the report coming up. I wonder what Shafer is saying to himself!!
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I am starting to freak out a bit because yesterday there was that mean specialist and incorrect charts and now this. I think we are getting close to the end now that I am getting worried.
 
25mg for mjs weight would be given for premed. its minimal sedation

another graph on the diff levels of sedation. it represents the physical responces of paitents at the diff levels of sedation and what to expect.ie having difficulty breathing etc. minimul sedation which murray gave mj if u believe murray would expect to get a normal repsonce and wouldnt expect breathing difficulties. it would cause sleepiness etc.

the loraz levels were higher than what murray said he gave

conscience sedation. dr cooper called it procedual sedation. white says yes its pretty much the same thing. all though the origns of both things are different.

most hospitals for a dr to use conscience sedation do they have to take tests? yes. to use midaz and dip you have to have the triaing becasue of any side effects. u have to be able to help them if they go into a deeper sedation as its easy to go into a deeper sedation level. so the dr has to be trained to deal with that. (looks like flanagans trying to bring it in in a nice way that murray wasnt trained.) walgren asks to approach
 
They have a side bar now. What is it with muarry always scratching his face so violently. I hope he is not on propf.
 
So murray knocked out mj on anesthetic for 2 months straight and then just used minimal sedation levels on 25th june. I see, v believable.
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didnt murray tell the police his aim was to knock mj out for many hours at a time
 
White's saying for such minimal sedation levels of these drugs, there would be no respiratory problems so presumably no need for equipment/monitoring - all those pesky standard of care issues the other docs brought up. V convenient.

^^ at 10.40, murray said he wanted mj to have 2 hrs sleep, that's all i remember.
 
marebear said:
I am starting to freak out a bit because yesterday there was that mean specialist and incorrect charts and now this. I think we are getting close to the end now that I am getting worried.
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Marebear, close to the end when desperate people see they are loosing, it is common for them to become more vicious and throw in a lot of red herrings hoping something will stick. It happens a lot so don't be scared. I just have more dislike for muarry for allowing the defense to put Michael through this when Muarry knows he caused Michael's death.
 
white has murray documents about being able to give conscience sedation. showing hes been approved to give conscience sedation from sunrise (is it) hospital (well that makes what he did even worse. he knew he needed monitoring equipment ect cause hes been on a course)

white says if u are certified you are trained in tecniques to get the right levels. monitor paitents carrefully. rescue paitents from a deeper sedation .manage a compromised airway. provide ventilation etc. (all the things murray didnt do) but had been taught to do
 
Bonnie Blue said:
White's saying for such minimal sedation levels of these drugs, there would be no respiratory problems so presumably no need for equipment/monitoring - all those pesky standard of care issues the other docs brought up. V convenient.

^^ at 10.40, murray said he wanted mj to have 2 hrs sleep, that's all i remember.
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He is contradicting all the doctors in his field then, because they all claim that in using prof you need to have rescue procedures in place. In fact for all procedures you need to have a plan for emergencies. This adds more to what Shaffer said about people who get paid misrepresenting facts (I paraphrase here).
 
White saying Michael took pills orally, so he is also with the drinking pill theory.
 
If mj took a massive dose at 7am of loraz, he would be asleep surely by 10.40 when murray said he had to use prop to get mj off to sleep.
 
back to the loraz graph where shaffer gave the time at midnight. shaffer has changed that. whites attacking him for the wrong times given. mj must have got aa shot in the car on the way back.

shaffer said cause of the 40mg bottle on the floor he created that report? yes. so thats 10 injections. what would be the effect of that? average paitent could be dead or comitozed for many hours its an enormous amount.

showing the new graph shaffer did. changed the times and the doese 4 9mg doses wouldnt fit with 40mg bottle does it?. white says it would fit the concentration level found though (flanagan didnt like that answer) and thats what shaffer was looking for. ie something that would get you to the concentration levels

whites critizing the last few injections of loraz. becasue the blood levels would be high and they would be expected to be asleep so you wouldnt need those last few. midaz figures murray gave match the autopsy level. based on the times the midaz was given was mj sedated based on the loraz graph shaffer created.? u could say mj would be under deep sedation so it doesnt make sense.that murray would then give midaz. so that descredits the loraz graph done by shaffer according to the defence.

loraz concentration .on shaffers graph. simulated 2 iv injections murray said then the possibility mj took orally they created a simulation on the graph it presumes there was no loraz in mj when the graph/simulation stated. you would expect some risidule as mj got some the previous day says white. if mj was getting some the previous days then the amount given on the 25th would be less. (think hes saying that) whites going on about presumptions etc etc. trying to discredit

re the stomach, there was a tiny amount of loraz in the stomach no risidule amount. with the amount of pills take at 7am would there be much left in the stomach you would expect very little or nothing (defence are still pushing the tablet theory) takes 15 mins for a tab to break up implying tabs were taken all in one go you could take them at diff intervals. and the drink on mjs bedside helps them break up even quicker if u are drinking it.
 
Petrarose said:
Marebear, close to the end when desperate people see they are loosing, it is common for them to become more vicious and throw in a lot of red herrings hoping something will stick. It happens a lot so don't be scared. I just have more dislike for muarry for allowing the defense to put Michael through this when Muarry knows he caused Michael's death.
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Thank you for understanding. I apppreciate that.
 
Bonnie Blue said:
If mj took a massive dose at 7am of loraz, he would be asleep surely by 10.40 when murray said he had to use prop to get mj off to sleep.
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I would have thought so. Even if Michael swallowed 8 pills at 7am, where was Murray? He was in charge of looking after his patient and that includes keeping the pills out of his reach!
 
white says the simulation he had created makes more sense re the loraz IV that was given. says its not logical that murray sat there giving dose after dose. it assumes mj took the pills all in one go. which he doesnt agree with. he could have taken them at diff intervals.you can create diff simualtions to come to the concentration levels theres a number of diff opinions . walgren asks for a clarifaction from the defence. white says we dont know the times pills were taken the graph implies all taken at 7 but it could have been taken at 7 and 8. its all hypothetical. it makes more sense to him for mj to take 4 at 2 diff times.to white that makes more sense that mj took the pills rather than shaffers graph about murray giving loads of bolus injections. when u say oral must have been taken are u basing that on the amount of loraz in the stomach? no becasue there wasnt hardly any in the stomach it disolves. so whites opinion is totally hypothetical no evidence that mj took tablets but lets make it up and say thats more logical than murray giving it.
 
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white says you wouldnt expect to see free loraz in the stomach if it was only given via IV. theres no redistrubution of it. so that supports the claim that mj took pills as if it was only given by IV it shouldnt be in the stomach at all.

mid morning break

walgren needs to be on top form during cross cause obviously its all one sided at the moment but imo white is shredding shaffers theories/opinions apart.waiting till monday is gonna be horendous.
 
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Their swallowing lorazapam theory means that Murray didn't abandoned Jackson only once for two minutes! That means that he abandoned him at least 2 times or even more according to White.. or Murray just watch MJ swallowing those pills? That is what Walgren has to highlight on cross!
 
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