Murray Trial Day 20. October 28th

Good Evening & Morning to All! :angel:


Tweets from Legal expert on Sky News in the UK:

MMcParland Michael McParland

How could MJ have taken those tablets with Dr Murray sitting in the bedroom talking to him, (acc to Dr's statement).

43 seconds ago

http://twitter.com/#!/MMcParland/status/129967476099399680MMcParland Michael McParland

Q I have is- if MJ took tablets before 7 / 8 a.m, perhaps on several occasions, accord to Dr M's statement he was sitting with him thruout.

2 minutes ago


McParland is doing a fantastic job on the Sky News desk throughout this Trial.

P.S Dislike that blonde presenter she's awful! :glare:
 
Sky Mcparland^^ The defence opening statement did say that mj was up and about popping pills in his bathroom. That detective interview never pinned murray down as to whether murray was sitting at mj's bedside all 12 hours and whether mj was in bed the whole time. That's because it wasn't a homicide by the 27th thanks in part to friends and family so was a friendly interview not an interrogation.
 
although mj had an iv on and a catheter! and murray told him at 7am he had to get up and go to the toilet. no need if mj had been up and about all night. murray talked as if mj had been in bed all night and was telling mj to get up and go
 
McParland re-tweeting someone elses very valid comment:

No1Joy
Joy by MMcParland@

@MMcParland BUT, Shafer stated the AR report DID NOT state that it was either lorazapan OR it's metabolite - White has not stated this!!!!

7 minutes ago
 
McParland re-tweeting someone elses very valid comment:

No1Joy
Joy by MMcParland@

@MMcParland BUT, Shafer stated the AR report DID NOT state that it was either lorazapan OR it's metabolite - White has not stated this!!!!

7 minutes ago

they mean the loraz that was found in the stomach?.the defence test that was wrong added up both the metabolite and the full amount. so there was both in the stomach
 
Sorry guys, I haven't been able to watch the trial these past 2 days as we have guests over right now ..


anyways I don't know if this was posted or not but it's a huge gesture

robinsax robinsax
Kathy and Rick Hilton showed their support for Jacksons by showing up in court 2day Jurors prob wont recognize who they R but huge gesture
 
Of course shafer's examples were not consistent with Murrays testimony!! He was LYING!!!!
 
Dr White

Flanagan

Pharmaco dynamic model : variability

Effect site : concentration in the brain, not measurable in living humans; surrogate measures, using EEG.
Bispectral index study graph :
Y axis = vertical : EEG bispectral index 0 = dead , 100 = fully awake.
X axis = horizontal : level of sedation . 5 = fully awake, 1 not arousable.
Line shows a mean, or mathematical average, or model, dots show patients , dots show that patients reaction varies a lot. For a given level of sedation, the EEG bispectral index (effect on the brain) will vary


Shows a paper about a study of propofol and bispetral index, Was Principal Investigator . Shows a diagram , scale for EEG bispectral, is 40 = anethesized to 100 = awake, level of sedation 5 = fully awake to 1 , there is no line , just dots representing individual patients, shows the reaction vary a lot from a patient to another

shows study about relationship between bispectral index and effect site concentration value

shows a study : physilogical endpoints (= physiological changes such as apnea, eyelash reflects, verbal response) compared to EEG bispctral value. Variability 40 to 95 (shows great variability)

Endpoints compared to effect site concentration : 4 to 1 variability

back to dr Shafer's graph about the 2X2 mg lorazepam at 2 and 5am : is an accurate depication of an average patient. MJ had been taking oral lorazepam, you would expect residual levels of lorazepam from prior days. Objection by Walgren about the word «*oral*» , overruled, it's a matter of cross.

CM said he treated MJ with midazolam and lorazeapm : you would expect to find residual levels, but Dr White doesn't know how much given

Another graph from dr Shafer 2X2 mg midazolam 3 am and 7 30 am : same comments as previous graph. Midazolam has a shorter half life , quicker onset, popular for preoperative medication. This graph shows the blood at autopsy for lorazepam, not midazolam. Responsive to pain stimulus line is much higher, but midazolam is not an analgesic.
Actual blood concentration for midazolam in Autopsy Report was close to Shafer's model for midazolam.

Another graph , combining 2 X2mg midazolam and lorazepam , based on CMs interview, showing the concentration CM thought were in MJ's blood. The irrelevent resonsive to pain line is on the graph, much higher than the concentrations levels.

Dr Shafer didn't described the 25mg propofol over 3 to 5 mn in his report , it's the only thing from CMs inerview that Dr Shafer didn't include in his report, but did the simulation for the defense.

Showing the 25mg propofol over 3 to 5 mn simulation

Now showing another graph combining the 25mg propofol and 2 X2 mg lorazepam and midazolam ( still well below the response to pain line). It's a simulation done by dr Shafer , objection by Walgren , Shafer didn't do this one. He did both seperately, dr White combined them, . This doesn't depict a dangerous situation at all.

25 mg propofol over to 3 to 5 mn, would produce anxiety relief, a little sleepiness.

Study : efficacy of propofol compared to midazolam as an intrevenous premedication agent : the dose of propofol used in the study is the equivalent of 24 mg propofol used on MJ, that's minimal sedation.

Continum of depth sedation from minimal sedation (anxiolysis), moderate seation, deep sedation, general anesthesia . Shows relation of level of sedation and physiological effects (responsiveness, airway, obstruction, spontaneous ventiliation, cardio vascular fonction )

Minimal sedation as was provied by CM : would only produce only a little sleepiness, not produce the physiological effects described above.

Gack to graph with the 25mg propofol , midazolam, lorazepam : represents minimal sedation (except for the lorazepam concentration found at autopsy) .

Procedural sedation = conscious sedation = mac sedation = moderate sedation , origin of the terms are different, but they mean the same thing

Moderate sedation : verbal response, airway is unaffected , ventilation ok, cardiovascular function is ok.

Anesthesiolgists are trained in moderate sedation , for other doctors : most hospitals require that doctors who use conscious sedations are trained, in case they inadvertently sedate the patient into a deep sedation, and need to rescue the patient.

CM has a certification from Sunrise Hospital in Las Vegas for moderate sedation.

Shows CM certification for concious sedation : allows him to : evaluate the patient, adminster sedation, manage a compromised airway, provide adequate ventilation in case of apnea, rescue a patient from deeper sedation, monitor the petient to evaluate sedation

Showing Dr Shafer's graph with 40 mg lorazepam starting at midnigt, compared to 2 X 2 mg : simulation was modified cause MJ was still at Staples center at midnight. Shafer corrected it recently. The average patient would be dead, at the very least comatose for several hours, receiving 40mg over 5 hours. Shafer did that simulation because of the 10ml vial found at the house

Showing the modification , 9 doses of 4 mg each, starting at 1 30. Doesn't fit with the vial found. Made to fit with concentration. Last doses would have been given when he would still have been asleep.

Showing the graph with the 40mg lorazepam at midnight , 2X2 midazolam nd lorazepam.
Midazolam given by CM = what was found at autopsy.
Midazolam would have been given when MJ was highly sedated with lorazepam, it doesn't make sense.

Showing a computer model : lorzaepam concentration with a 2 mg lorzaepam bolus at 2 am, another dose at 5 am bolus, followed by an oral larger dose of 20mg (10 pills taken at the same time ) at 7 00. Assumes there was no residual lorazepam, but thinks there was

Showing another graph , same but with a residual level. Residual level for 10mg for 5 days; Same result with 16 mg oral lorazepam (8 pills) at 7 . could do aother simualtion with 3 or 4 pills at 4, other pills at 6

The quantity of lorazepam in stomach content was very low : dissulotion of the pill is 15 mn, then absorbstion halftime is 22 mn (some studies say 40 mn) : especially if MJ was drinking, it's normal that there was very little lorazepam found in the stomach.

This simulation is more reasonable , 40mg simulation is irrational.

The simulation with residual level is more realistic. MJ maybe didnt take the 8 pills all at once, maybe he took a few at one time, then later took more pills. We don't know at what time, how many pills were taken; could be some taken at 6 , some at 8.

it's speculation, but more reasoneble than 4 mg boluses every 30mns

the small amount of lorzaepem in the stomach is explained by absortion halflife

Lorazepam : 93% bioavailability.

Article by greenblack : is the equivalent of 1/300th of a pill in the stomach is consitent with your simulation ? Answer : You would not expect to find free lorazepam in the stomach if it was given IV

break
 
Dr White is being very deceptive with his comments stating he doesn't know why Shaffer even bothered coming up with these simulations. Dr Shaffer himself said he does not think these simulations depicted what actually happened! He was doing it to show all the TECHNICALLY possible scenarios to get the propofol level found at autopsy.

Walgren is going to rip this guy to shreds. But we will have to wait till Monday....
 
MMcParland Michael McParland

Does not depict a dose over 3-5 mins. It assumes rapid bolus dose over 30 secs or thereabouts. THIS IS DEF CASE!!!
 
I've listed to bits now, for about 15 mins, and omg this guy is a dick. Seriously smdh!! He clearly has an agenda and is totally trying to discredit Shafer by making sly remarks about him. SMDH
 
courts back. if all the loraz was given by IV you would not expect to find any free loraz in the stomach.

going through the rejected senarios shaffer created for how diprivan was given. and how they couldnt get to the concentration levels found at autopsy.

based on the 50mg theory. its inconsistant casue murray said he only gave 25mg. so white rejects it aswell.

100mg of diprivan theory. thats inconsitant with shaffer saying lidocaine was given. its also inconsitant with what mj supposedly always asked for ie lidocaine. 100mg would only work if lidocaine wasnt given

multiple doses of diprivan theory given over diff times. murray giving 6 doses of 50 mg and 5 of lidocane would have to be given aswell. u would have to fill 6 injections to the full amounts. says it would be hard to do an a challenge to draw up all that. its not rational.

self injections shaffer came up with. white says no its not credible either

the defence are trying to make shaffer look bad by saying these theories are crazy. yet shaffer said they were crazy aswell. they are trying to say shaffers stupid for even creating these theories in the first place


50mg self injecting. obsurd aswell

back to the 25mg bolus dose theory by shaffer. that would take 30secs? would mj be capable of self injecting that amount? objection substained. could someone with a iv be capable of self injecting? yes of course. and if someone did bolus inject 25g that would shoot the numbers up white says they would go upto 4 approx which is abit lower than the level shaffer given. the number shaffer gave could be right it depends on the speed of the injection ( yet this level would have come down cause the heart was still going) i guess this will come up next
 
i HATE to you see murray laughing at the judge's jokes.


ETA: SMDH means Shake my damn head
 
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blood levels over a 10 min space ie when the heart keeps beating for.. flanagan keeps going on about the infusion at 10.40 murray was on the phone then!
 
the 25mg bolus injection ontop of the loraz and midaz is potentially lethal says white
 
How about the fact that all this was happening in a home situation without monitoring equipment? Have they forgotten that? I want to know Dr White's opinion on that!
 
I don't understand a word they are saying.....

And here we go. A demonstration.
 
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