New Documentary - Michael Jackson Was Your Jesus

[Pentum]

unfortunately i can't answer your question pentum, as i wish to preserve my neutrality.

pm?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

pm?

Does it really matter ? Let's say I am a humanist and I am a peace supporter

 

[Pentum]

Does it really matter ? Let's say I am a humanist and I am a peace supporter

Oh, how you remind me of the infamous PG right now

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Oh, how you remind me of the infamous PG right now

Bahahahaha. No, don't see it that way. The only reason why I am not answering this question is because I would not wish to be portrayed as a stereotype of a belief system. Even if I answer to your question with a "yes" or a "no" it would be with lots of "buts" because of the complexity of the subject.

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

They serve God not because God needs them, but because they are thankful and is simply in their nature not to be bad. It's an inability of being bad. Just the way we are unable to see with our bear eyes infra red or ultra violet. Or if that latter example is not the best one in terms of comparison, we humans are able to do only what is within the limits of a human being. The same goes for the angelss

So if Mary saw an Angel at the Annunciation (sorry for jumping from Islam to a somewhat Catholic favorite)- how did she do that? Was she not human? Did she just channel Gabriel? (plenty of people making that claim in 2012)
Or did she see him with her physical eyes? Both?

Just leads me to think again how allegorical a lot of the attributes must be, or that Mary surely existed, yet there's a lot that you'll find elsewhere before her.
As others already mentioned Isis- or take the case of the Goddess Hera and the immaculate conception of her son, Hephaestus.

Now, what about those who are said to have 'disobeyed' God (or fought with Archaengel Michael, depends who we're talking, I suppose).
I guess Christians would say "fallen angels."
If you wiki that, there seems to be plenty of thoughts on that- so apparently even some angels chose evil?

This goes beyond human's understanding. They serve God, not the humanity. They know things we don't, they do have assignments, they are able to do only good things, but it does not mean they don't have free will. Not being able to do bad things does not mean there is absence of free will.

I would very much agree that the absence of 'transgressions' doesn't mean we have no free will to do bad. (something a lot of people seem to forget who are all in favor of "well, Dr Murray is just the innocent scapegoat" speech, the whole issue of free will being a two way street for all involved)
I wasn't trying to imply that 'perfection' can only be achieved without free will, either.

And if you helped a homeless person- didn't you serve them as well?

It's in their nature. It doesn't mean they don't have free will. They're just different. Theologically speaking, if we knew things they knew, maybe we'd act the same, i.e. be unable to do any bad deed and serve God, freewillingly.

And how does that work then with the Metatron (sorry for jumping religion once again), who was said to have been man- Enoch, yet was 'made' an Archangel.
Did Enoch know more? How did the human pull that one off, as you said that the angels know more than humanity?
Or is that like Angel Brahma (Brahma Kumaris), who practiced a form of yoga and became an angel?
Are there humans that pull off that feat, that 'know more'?

According to islam there are also Jins (or spirits) livingin the parallel world who cannot be seen by humans, but who are able to show themselves to humans. They have genders, can reproduce and are able to do good or bad things.

Okay, hold on for a second, I just wanna make sure I'm following you. Everything that I have read so far stated that angels had no free wills in Islam- except for humans, and Jinn.

The number 7 heavens is probably a symbollic number, however it must probably have an important mystical meaning. There are many, many references to the number seven. As far as I am concerned, the number seven represents the reality of the place and the moment. In other words, if you take A and B (length), C and D (height) and E and F (depth) you define a space. The intersection of those six points defining a space of "here and now" is the seventh point.

Take this thing here, for example. The "septenary nature of man" (*sings Human Nature now*)
is obviously found not just as a subject among theosophists, from whom I borrowed this.

And to imagine that all the "7" talk just barely covers humans!

Just in this thread alone the number 7 applies to Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism- etc. And that list far from complete, too.

You're definition of 7 as "here and now" reminds me of the Jewish "Shavuot". And you're definition of 7 as the 'definer' sounds a lot like the Shabbat.
You're definition is 'very Kabbalah', if you will.

6+1 make up the whole, 7, sounds logical.
I do scratch my head though how the definition of "here and now" works beyond an earth plane, where time is relative and space beyond definition. Unless of course I misinterpreted what you said (happens easily, I think)- how does 7 include the relative nature of time, past and future?

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

WHAAAT? Michael NEVER claimed he was Jesus! In fact, in that 1993 interview with Oprah, he said he was NOT Jesus (why he found it necessary to say that, I'm not sure?)

Oprah's answer of "We're clear on that" after he repeated that twice has made laugh since 1993. :hysterical:
And in fairness to Michael, he didn't SAY that. :rofl:

(does she look like she's trying to figure where to plant that kiss? "NOT THE CHEST")

Here's another good one in the "I didn't say that" category- this time from Deepak Chopra.
An awesome friend showed me this article.

The headline reads: "Michael Jackson was like Krishna".

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...son-was-like-Krishna/articleshow/12018560.cms

My personal favorite is Deepak Chopra being depicted with the words "Michael Jackson was like Krishna". :rofl: It's the little signs of posthumous karma completion in favor of Michael, because when you read the article Chopra merely expressed the sentiment that all celebrities express an archetype.

There was an unfortunate incident, I think it was in Wales? When Michael was performing EarthSong. He actually stripped off his clothing (not what it seems. . . :wild to reveal. . . white robes. He was surrounded by children. And THEN? Some dude jumped on stage, dropped his drawers, and MOONED the audience. He said later that it was because of Michael's "Jesus portrayal," and that he found it offensive. (I think there's a video of the full-moon still around somewhere)

And there they say that Michael is boring pop and that only Woodstock supplies remarkable memories.

...
I can understand if someone religious would find such a scene offensive, however if Cocker admits to be not religious then I don't know what was his problem. If you don't consider Christ a deity then why would you find his "imitation" offensive? Oh well, perhaps he just wanted attention.

Frankly, I don't see what was so cool about the whole thing that all these brit poppers (Noel Gallagher) pat Cocker on the back over it. If anything, it's totally childish (both Cocker's actions and others congratulating him for it).

Somebody should have an eye on him if he's invited to a Wedding Mass. Next thing you know he'll moon some unsuspecting priest for holding up the Body of Christ. Or maybe he flips even more in Protestant services, as they REALLY only imitate and even say so!

Nativity plays must be sheer hell for Jarvis Cocker, you know? Children and someone imitating Christ.

Maybe Jarvis' last name inspired him in a Pink Floyd kinda way? You never know.

...
Digressive, I know, but remember the outrageousness of that dude -- I think it was in Korea - -who jumped on the cherry-picker WITH Michael, and Michael continued on with singing EarthSong, but also wrapped his arm around the guy so he wouldn't fall? They were quite high up!

Michael's message has always been one of INCLUSION, and respect for differences. He sang it, and he showed it, in stage performances, videos (short-films) and in other ways. One of the most touching was in Black or White, when he moves laterally through eras and cultures, as a unifying force. Which he WAS, at least for some?

Yes, the Korea freak out. Maybe it's not fair that the females got to experience ecstasy upon YANA- so perhaps the males experienced theirs during Earth Song, because that stuff always took place during that song?

And Black Or White still remains a masterpiece, starts out as this suburbian nightmare and expands drastically.

You have put it better than I did. Indeed, fascinating. I never knew what to make of it but you are probably onto something with the deeply buried nerve.

I just wish that nerve was buried in another location, you know.
And that Mr. Cocker would have acted differently upon the sudden remembrance of his innate spiritual knowledge- perhaps a "Thank you" would have been in order? My God, as if that performance triggered something in him.
I can imagine how upset Michael was.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

So if Mary saw an Angel at the Annunciation (sorry for jumping from Islam to a somewhat Catholic favorite)- how did she do that? Was she not human? Did she just channel Gabriel? (plenty of people making that claim in 2012)
Or did she see him with her physical eyes? Both?

Angels, in Islam or Christianity, have the ability to make themselves visible to humans when they choose to do so in form of a human being. So, according to the exegesisn she saw him with her physical eyes.

Just leads me to think again how allegorical a lot of the attributes must be, or that Mary surely existed, yet there's a lot that you'll find elsewhere before her.
As others already mentioned Isis- or take the case of the Goddess Hera and the immaculate conception of her son, Hephaestus.

That's another debate. Simply put Islam does not recognize any kind of trinity, while most of the Christian branches do (but not all). What you are referring to is the idea of a mythological triun god, the heaven representing the divine male, the earth (terrestrial mother/human) representing the female and the son usually being a semi-god like for example Hercules in Greek mythology (whose mother was a human and father divine). There are plenty of trinity examples in the pagan's and polytheistic belief system. No wonder why the early (non-Jewish/non-semitic) theologians had difficulty to understand the Jewsih (Jesus's) religion where there was a question of only one and unique God. Add to that the fact that Jesus spoke Aramaic and that not single Gospel or book in the New Testament is written in Aramaic, but in Ancient Greek (the language of the polytheists), one easily can understand why there were some difficulties to translate some monotheistic concepts, interpret them and adapt them with a vocabulary that usually dealt with polytheistic concepts.

All in all, as you pointed out some similarities with other mythologies or religions, where soem see the forgery (copy, inspiration, ect.) others simply see the proof that the message independently came from the same source, hence striking similarity.

Now, what about those who are said to have 'disobeyed' God (or fought with Archaengel Michael, depends who we're talking, I suppose).
I guess Christians would say "fallen angels."
If you wiki that, there seems to be plenty of thoughts on that- so apparently even some angels chose evil?

According to Christianity, angels can "fall", hence there are fallen angels = satans.
According to Islam, angels cannot "fall". According to Islam the satans are not fallen angels, but the jinns (spirits) who chose to desobey, they are called sheitans (satans). However, this is more complex than simply desobeying. In reality it is not desobedience per se that is the origine of the "fallen angel's" or "jinn's" behavior, but the exaggerated pride of themselves. Indeed, they (be they "fallen angels" according to Christianity or "jinns" according to Islam) consider themselves as superior to human beings and refused to bow in front of the first human being as they bow only in front of God, hence, that's why they (satans) try to corrupt the human being in order to prove their overproud superiority over the humans. Forget the movies where you see Satan trying to equal God, the point is completely missed and oversimplified, and remember in the Gospels how Satan tries to corrupt Jesus. That's also why I suggested you to see the "Christ's Last Temptation" with Willem Dafoe, it's extremely gnostic and opposed to the mainstream concept of Jesus that people have.

I would very much agree that the absence of 'transgressions' doesn't mean we have no free will to do bad. (something a lot of people seem to forget who are all in favor of "well, Dr Murray is just the innocent scapegoat" speech, the whole issue of free will being a two way street for all involved)
I wasn't trying to imply that 'perfection' can only be achieved without free will, either.

And if you helped a homeless person- didn't you serve them as well?

Well, yes you served them, but above all you did a good deed, you showed an act of compassion, love, understanding, justice, humility,... something angels do -- good deeds.

And how does that work then with the Metatron (sorry for jumping religion once again), who was said to have been man- Enoch, yet was 'made' an Archangel.
Did Enoch know more? How did the human pull that one off, as you said that the angels know more than humanity?
Or is that like Angel Brahma (Brahma Kumaris), who practiced a form of yoga and became an angel?
Are there humans that pull off that feat, that 'know more'?

Those are all but people's interpretation based on their respective concepts of what an angel is or is not. I said angels know things that we don't because of their nature of understanding and because of our limited intelligence as a human beings. Now if we mix the concepts of angels as seen by different religions, it gets difficult to give one unique answer. Your question should be asked individually to each representative of each religion. As far as Islam is concerned for example if someone says that a human has become an angel, the Islamic exegesis would probably say that the text was either the author's forgery or imagination as angels are clearly definied in Islam as being of light essence, just as humans have been clearly defined as being made of earthly matter (i.e. the matter that is found in our physical world here on Earth). Mixing essences would have then been a contradiciton, conceptually speaking.

Okay, hold on for a second, I just wanna make sure I'm following you. Everything that I have read so far stated that angels had no free wills in Islam- except for humans, and Jinn.

This is debatable. On the surface it appears that they don't have free will because they do only good things and because they obey God alone. But given the fact that they know things we don't and given the fact that according to the exegesis God is perfect, the most merciful, loving and just, if we were of angel's essence and "saw" things they "see", we'd freewillingly do the same thing the angels actually do no matter what. Humans on the other hand are not required to be angels as they are unable to reach such a level. But humans can reach levels of extreme goodness, compassion, justice, humility,...

Take this thing here, for example. The "septenary nature of man" (*sings Human Nature now*)
is obviously found not just as a subject among theosophists, from whom I borrowed this.

And to imagine that all the "7" talk just barely covers humans!

Just in this thread alone the number 7 applies to Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism- etc. And that list far from complete, too.

You're definition of 7 as "here and now" reminds me of the Jewish "Shavuot". And you're definition of 7 as the 'definer' sounds a lot like the Shabbat.
You're definition is 'very Kabbalah', if you will.

Regarding the Kabbalah's and my definition, it's a pure coincidence. I just thought that here and now as the intersection of six space and time points was "common sense".

6+1 make up the whole, 7, sounds logical.
I do scratch my head though how the definition of "here and now" works beyond an earth plane, where time is relative and space beyond definition. Unless of course I misinterpreted what you said (happens easily, I think)- how does 7 include the relative nature of time, past and future?

That's a good question. We can only speculate. My 7 indeed referred to our physical time and space*, because of many examples that are surrounding us in our physical world. However, I think no matter what dimension we are in, the 7th point will always be the intersection of those 6 points when trying to locate either our body or our consciousness beyond an earth plane.

*As far as I am concerned time and space are one and the same outside our earthly dimension. The 6 points aren't as important as the 7th point, which is actually telling us that we exist, that we're conscious. I can speculate and see the number 7 as related to something that equals the consciousness or the "real" reality no matter where or when we are.

 

[Autumn II]

I'm VERY pleased to see that this thread is still thriving, and seems to be doing so with respect. You see? We ARE capable.

Probably not going to engage a lot with the convo about angels (I mean, nobody REALLY knows, right?), except to say that in my own life, I've had several of what I consider to be "divine interventions," in terms of angels -- as PEOPLE -- who have effected positive change, at just the right times. Most, if not all, cultures have some forms of "other-wordly" beings. For that, it might be time to revisit Joseph Campbell? And Jungian archetypes? These speculations/workings out of what "reality" is or might be, are always fascinating.

In terms of Michael, he was very clear to Oprah about NOT being Jesus! But yet, he was not infrequently accused of having a "Messianic complex," as evidenced by the images posted above. As literally the world's MOST famous person, I think he took his responsibility in that role seriously, and tried to be a force for peace and healing, and planetary health. I think EarthSong and Black or White reveal that stance most overtly, but there are others, as well. He didn't "talk much" in terms of public speaking, but instead "showed" what he considered to be the necessary steps to reconciliation of differences. And, his anti-war stance was quite obvious, i.e. in staged versions of EarthSong when he pushes aside a gun, or faces down a REAL tank, on stage!

To me, he was quintessential "other," in his various differences. In that sense, he was (sadly) a catalyst for expressions of hate and fear, and also of intense LOVE on the parts of those who understand him best.

 

[HIStory]

To me, he was quintessential "other," in his various differences. In that sense, he was (sadly) a catalyst for expressions of hate and fear, and also of intense LOVE on the parts of those who understand him best.

So true. Human behaviour to people who are different, the mob mentality, the bully mentality would be well worth a serious scholarly analysis - and Michael was such a target of this ugly human instinct. Bullying doesn't only happen on the schoolyards and by teenagers. Michael was constantly bullied by people in the media and other adults just because he was different.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

@my answer to Pentum

[youtube]sIHQEmM5KI4[/youtube]

 

[Autumn II]

@my answer to Pentum

[youtube]sIHQEmM5KI4[/youtube]

That was absolutely BRILLIANT! Thank you.

Lest we forget, the symbols shown on the screen at Michael's memorial? They were the religious symbols of ALL the major religions, and some of the "minor" ones. They were to be a part of TII. That WAS Michael's message.

Bumper Snippet, I totally respect your choice not to discuss your personal spiritual beliefs here. But, regardless, I will declare MINE. I am a Unitarian/Universalist, and yes, I do belong to a "church." We have a banner displayed in our church, of. . .all the symbols of the major (and some minor) religions of the world. Identical to the symbols shown at Michael's memorial. We are all searchers, TOGETHER, and we are open-minded as to "new information." We do have "religious education," for children. The content? Knowledge about the WORLD's religions. Our children visit mosques, Jewish temples, Catholic mass, Pagan drum-circles, and . . other. Gives new meaning to the idea, "freedom of choice?"

(and, I've got a LOT of UU jokes, if anyone is interested. But, probably not? )

 

[8701girl]

I think michael belived in god & learned alot from god about humanity. He learned love, respect & kindness from god and how to treat other human being the same way as god taught him to. That was one of the most special things bout michael and is the reason why many ppl loved him

 

[qbee]

We are many faiths but there is ONLY one voice who speaks to us all
The sooner we all realize that the closer we come to the promise.

Standing here on sacred ground
Some days it's a mad world let it be
Words of promise fill the air, empty voices
How long have we waited?

And every time I hold your hand
You bring to me this promised land
I live for you, this promised land

Take me there and back again
Some days it's a sad world let it be
What's the point of looking for this power divine?
It's already in my changes

And every time I hear your voice
I realize I have the choice
To live again, I deserve this choice
To live again

Our heaven will be now

You are the song from the book of time
To realize what is yours is mine
We are meant to be
All because our love has always been
You are the centre of my day
You are my guide in every way
We were meant to be
All because our love has always been there
Giving me the light
Yes it's been there
Giving me the light

Second nature sings to me
Some days it's a dark world let it be
I define my right to be
I can follow those who've lost their vision

And every time I hold your hand
You redesign my promised land
I live for you, this promised land
I live for you

You are the song from the book of time
To realise what is yours is mine
We are meant to be
All because our love has always been
You are the centre of my day
You are my guide in every way
We were meant to be
All because our love has always been there
Giving me the light (Giving me the light)
Yes it's been there, giving me the light

You are the song from the book of time
To realise what is yours is mine
We are meant to be
All because our love has always been
You are the centre of my day
You are my guide in every way
We were meant to be
All because our love has always been there
Giving me the light
Yes it's been there giving me the light

Give love each day
Give love each day
Give love each day
Give love each day
Give love each day
Give love each day
Give love each day
Give love each day
Give love each day
Give love each day
Give love each day

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Another brilliant composition without lyrics, just music for the general atmosphere in this thread:

[youtube]I5Y0oQ_LxiU[/youtube]

That was absolutely BRILLIANT! Thank you.

Lest we forget, the symbols shown on the screen at Michael's memorial? They were the religious symbols of ALL the major religions, and some of the "minor" ones. They were to be a part of TII. That WAS Michael's message.

Bumper Snippet, I totally respect your choice not to discuss your personal spiritual beliefs here. But, regardless, I will declare MINE. I am a Unitarian/Universalist, and yes, I do belong to a "church." We have a banner displayed in our church, of. . .all the symbols of the major (and some minor) religions of the world. Identical to the symbols shown at Michael's memorial. We are all searchers, TOGETHER, and we are open-minded as to "new information." We do have "religious education," for children. The content? Knowledge about the WORLD's religions. Our children visit mosques, Jewish temples, Catholic mass, Pagan drum-circles, and . . other. Gives new meaning to the idea, "freedom of choice?"

(and, I've got a LOT of UU jokes, if anyone is interested. But, probably not? )

Thanks Autumn II.

Why UU jokes? What is special about them? I like jokes in general, so I am curiosu ti read UU jokes, why not, make us discover

 

[Autumn II]

Why UU jokes? What is special about them? I like jokes in general, so I am curiosu ti read UU jokes, why not, make us discover

"We" seem to be particularly adept at not taking ourselves too seriously?

What do you get when you cross a Unitarian/Universalist with a Jehovah's Witness?

People who knock on your door for no apparent reason.

How do you know if you are being persecuted by a UU?

By the burning question mark on your lawn.

Just about the only time when you'll hear "Jesus Christ" mentioned in a UU church, is when the janitor falls down the stairs.

How many UUs does it take to change a light bulb?

An undetermined number. We choose not to make a statement either in favor of, or against, the need for a light bulb. However, if on your own journey you have found that light bulbs work for you, that's fine. You are invited to form a committee, write a poem or compose a modern dance about your bulb for next Sunday's service, during which we will explore a number of light bulb traditions, including incandescent, fluorescent, three-way, long-life, and tinted, all of which are equally valid paths to luminescence.


Sorry! But since these jokes are about MYSELF (and other UUs), I thought it was ok to tell them. No harm intended, of course. UU began as Christian, as part of the Reformation. What made it different was the emphasis on REASON, as an important component of the faith (opposite to the Catholicism of the time, where the Bible was explained by the priest, and there was more of a set-formula to worship.) "Unitarian" means we do not believe in a Trinity, i.e. God-on-Earth. Universalist means "universal salvation," i.e a LOVING God would send no one to a "hell." And, especially, not for being devout in some other faith.

UU was part of the Transcendentalist movement in the U.S. Several of the Founding Fathers of the U.S. were UUs, most notably, Thomas Jefferson. And hence, "separation of church and state," and freedom of religion. On Sundays, sermons usually consist of presentations of complex ethical dilemmas, and a variety of paths to "goodness and compassion."

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

"We" seem to be particularly adept at not taking ourselves too seriously?

What do you get when you cross a Unitarian/Universalist with a Jehovah's Witness?

People who knock on your door for no apparent reason.

How do you know if you are being persecuted by a UU?

By the burning question mark on your lawn.

Just about the only time when you'll hear "Jesus Christ" mentioned in a UU church, is when the janitor falls down the stairs.

How many UUs does it take to change a light bulb?

An undetermined number. We choose not to make a statement either in favor of, or against, the need for a light bulb. However, if on your own journey you have found that light bulbs work for you, that's fine. You are invited to form a committee, write a poem or compose a modern dance about your bulb for next Sunday's service, during which we will explore a number of light bulb traditions, including incandescent, fluorescent, three-way, long-life, and tinted, all of which are equally valid paths to luminescence.


Sorry! But since these jokes are about MYSELF (and other UUs), I thought it was ok to tell them. No harm intended, of course. UU began as Christian, as part of the Reformation. What made it different was the emphasis on REASON, as an important component of the faith (opposite to the Catholicism of the time, where the Bible was explained by the priest, and there was more of a set-formula to worship.) "Unitarian" means we do not believe in a Trinity, i.e. God-on-Earth. Universalist means "universal salvation," i.e a LOVING God would send no one to a "hell." And, especially, not for being devout in some other faith.

UU was part of the Transcendentalist movement in the U.S. Several of the Founding Fathers of the U.S. were UUs, most notably, Thomas Jefferson. And hence, "separation of church and state," and freedom of religion. On Sundays, sermons usually consist of presentations of complex ethical dilemmas, and a variety of paths to "goodness and compassion."

Looooool @ jokes

And some elements you mentioned in your last two parapgraphs are debatable

 

[PoP]

:rofl:



So, Jesus loves kids and heals them. And Michael loves kids and heals them. And . . . . . .?



Which fact would that be? Link? ( sorry, but the logic is . . .. interesting. . . ) That's ok. A lot of people didn't believe Jesus was Jesus, either, back-in-the-day. (not that I think. .. you know. But, fascinating topic?) Wish we knew more about the film, and the "facts" that it uses?

(edit) I'm not laughing AT you, but "what the frickin' hell" made me spit out my tea! I actually think that "what the frickin' hell" is quite a reasonable response to the topic, under the circumstances?

I said that a few times, I said frick and frickin' all the time beside I never acutally said the other F word anyways. Like I said I know the fact Michael isn'y Jesus or God, because he said so, he's not Jesus like he said in his interview with Oprah as I posted and he also said there is no way he is God during his 93' statement regardinf the allegations. He said he likes to imitate Jesus and tries to be god-like.

 

[Autumn II]

Looooool @ jokes

And some elements you mentioned in your last two parapgraphs are debatable

Of COURSE they are "debatable." There's probably nothing a UU likes to do BETTER than "debate?"

But, returning to the topic? We are using the film as a springboard to talk about Michael/religions, which seems to be a fertile field. But actually? None of us have seen the film, so we really don't know if Michael-as-our-Jesus was meant as analogy, or literally? (I find it highly unlikely that Michael was Jesus, OR God, because, among other and numerous reasons, if he was, then why is he not HERE?)

 

[HIStory]

UU was part of the Transcendentalist movement in the U.S. Several of the Founding Fathers of the U.S. were UUs, most notably, Thomas Jefferson. And hence, "separation of church and state," and freedom of religion. On Sundays, sermons usually consist of presentations of complex ethical dilemmas, and a variety of paths to "goodness and compassion."

Isn't the so called Jefferson Bible when he cut out all supernatural claims and references from the Bible and left only moral teachings?

 

[Autumn II]

Isn't the so called Jefferson Bible when he cut out all supernatural claims and references from the Bible and left only moral teachings?

Not exactly, no. The Jefferson Bible was a text that focused specifically on the teachings of Jesus, i.e what He said and demonstrated, as the finest example of moral teachings. So in that sense, his focus was entirely on Jesus' life, and what he said and did.

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I said that a few times, I said frick and frickin' all the time beside I never acutally said the other F word anyways. Like I said I know the fact Michael isn'y Jesus or God, because he said so, he's not Jesus like he said in his interview with Oprah as I posted and he also said there is no way he is God during his 93' statement regardinf the allegations. He said he likes to imitate Jesus and tries to be god-like.

But then you can push the debate further and by using the same logic say that Jesus never claimed he was God, yet many people believe he's God.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Of COURSE they are "debatable." There's probably nothing a UU likes to do BETTER than "debate?"

But, returning to the topic? We are using the film as a springboard to talk about Michael/religions, which seems to be a fertile field. But actually? None of us have seen the film, so we really don't know if Michael-as-our-Jesus was meant as analogy, or literally? (I find it highly unlikely that Michael was Jesus, OR God, because, among other and numerous reasons, if he was, then why is he not HERE?)

I don't think we should mix the two concepts Jesus and God, nor Jesus and Michael. I think it is quite clear that we have an allegory that was used. In other words, imagine someone like Michael, let's say 3000 years ago with universal message of love, would he be seen by his contemporaries as a prophet or God's messenger. Or, let's reverse the question and ask ourselves hypothetically speaking, if a modern day prophet came to us, would he be straightforward by saying "I am your prophet" and take the risk to be considered as a nutcase by people, or would that prophet or messenger be more discrete and rather act through his actions regardless of religion, just like Gandhi, Mother Theresa or Michael Jackson?

 

[ginvid]

Michael's plastic surgery has nothing to do with the question at hand. Therefore any comments focusing on such will be deleted as it is I think ikmportant for the topic to not be derailed.

Thank you :flowers:

 

[MsMo]

I am a Christian and know who Jesus is and he isnt Michael Jackson.
Michael Jackson believed in God believed in the bible and followed Jesus teachings.
I dont think he felt he was God or Jesus either. In fact publically said he wasnt.

Also there is proof Jesus existed and walked this earth. Even Non- believing scholars
agree he was real. They Just dont agree on who he was or his purpose for being here.

Amen!

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

1500-year-old handwritten Bible found in Turkey
2012-02-25 10:14​

ANKARA, Feb. 24-- A handwritten Bible, believed to be 1,500 years old and is recently kept in the Ethnography Museum of Turkish capital Ankara, includes a drawing of the Last Supper, local media reports said on Friday.
The 52-page Bible is written in Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke, and consists the depiction of the Last Supper, which shows Jesus dining with his 12 Apostles, and also a depiction of the crucifixion of Jesus, a symbol of the sun and a cross, according to Turkish newspaper Today's Zaman.
The report added that there is also a depiction of a cave and a large rock which are thought to be the grave of Jesus.
Turkish Culture and Tourism Minister Ertugrul Gunay confirmed on Thursday that the 1,500-year-old Bible was discovered by policeman during an anti-smuggling operation in 2000 and is currently being kept in Ankara, according to Today's Zaman.
A smuggling gang seized during the operation was reportedly convicted of smuggling various items, including the Bible. After that, all the artifacts were kept in a safe at an Ankara courthouse.
The Bible, which was reportedly kept at the courthouse for years, was only recently handed over to the care of the Ethnography Museum of Ankara weeks ago, the newspaper quoted Zulkuf Yilmaz, head of the General Directorate of Museums and Cultural Assets, as saying.
The Bible will be sent abroad for carbon dating in order to determine its actual age, Yilmaz said, adding that the book will be put on public display after restoration.
Regarding claims that the book could in fact be the Gospel of Barnabas, Yilmaz said, "I hope that is the case."
The Gospel of Barnabas contradicts the canonical New Testament account of Jesus and his ministry but has strong parallels with the Islamic view of Jesus. Much of its content and themes are in line with Islamic ideas, and it includes a prediction by Jesus of the Prophet Muhammad coming to earth.

Source:English.news.cn​

 

[qbee]

I believe in the Bible and I try to follow the Bible. I know I’m an imperfect person, I’m not
making myself out to be an angel. Because I’m not an angel & I’m not a devil either. I try
to be the best I can and I try to do what I think is right. It’s that simple." ~ Michael Jackson

Ill never stop loving people the way Jesus said to ~ MJ

[video=youtube;vTgUBzE_EDQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTgUBzE_EDQ[/video]"

"My real goal is to fulfill God’s purpose." ~ MJ


This how I see Michael. Its describes him to a tee IMO


One who is in in devine union with God is one in nature, but diversified in manifestation.
He " weeps with those who weep, and rejoices with those who rejoice." Under the unerring impulses of the life which is from God, he becomes " all things to all men," but without losing the identity of his character as one united with God, and as being the "temple of the Holy Spirit." Instructed by the teachings of love, which is the best of all teachers, he is a man of smiles or of tears, of action or of rest. He rests when it is the time to rest, because rest in its time is better than toil out of time; but he labors when Providence calls him to labor, and love makes his labor sweet. He has a heart for humanity, and a heart for nature. More than a mere amateur of the outward world, he loves the rocks and the mountains for their own beauty and sublimity, and for the God that dwells in them.

His heart warms and melts in the summer sunshine; but the thunder is his also, and the lightning. Nothing is out of place, because place is subordinated to the eternity and ubiquity of the life within. He is a citizen of his country, and serves her well, without losing the evidence of his citizenship in heaven; a subject of the powers that are ordained of God, without ceasing to be the subject of Him who has ordained them. He sings praises with the devoted Christian, and his heart yearns and melts over the impenitent sinner.

In his simplicity, he is the companion of children; and in his wisdom, the counsellor of age. He can sit at meat with the " publican and sinner," or receive the hospitality of the unhumbled Pharisee; and, in both cases, he unites the proprieties of love with the faithfulness of duty.

And all this, which seems to imply contradiction, and to require effort, is what it is, in all its ease and all its promptness, because it is not the result of worldly calculation, but the infallible working of a divine nature.

The man who rests in God, by having the principles of his nature brought into harmony with the divine nature, cannot be restricted by the limitations of name or country; but has a spirit which belongs to the world.

It is true his speculative beliefs may harmonize in certain directions more than in others; but, bearing Christ's image at the centre, he belongs to God rather than a party, and all mankind are his brethren. The turbulence of nature has given place to the pacifications of grace, in order that he may extend the right hand of fellowship to those of every name and every climate.

 

[Severus Snape]

Nah. He was my W?den.