New Documentary - Michael Jackson Was Your Jesus

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

Trying to answer this, but I'm not fully sure I understand your question

Yes, thank you for putting up with my waffled questions.

We don't need more prophets. Allah completed the religion with Mohammad - he was the last seal of the prophets. We don't need any more prophets. What would change if a new prophet came today? People would just say he was rubbish and call BS on him.

If an angle came from heaven tomorrow, people would say it's a hoax, it's fake, etc (which of course IS possible to fake some way, but you get what I mean).

Aha! You say "what's the point, anyway?"

Angels... do you mind giving me the rundown of Angels in Islam? :cheeky:
Just to complete this thread, as it would be neat to compare how Judaism, Christianity and Islam view angels.

A number of people have spoken about Michael as an "angel", so I thought maybe it could be neat to check out humans and angels and everyone in between- and why it is that all religion speak to them so much.

Thank you! *can't find the flower

 

[Pentum]

According to some scholars not only Jesus will come, but Mahdi, the last one. Some believe Mahdi and Jesus will be the same person, some believe they're two different people.

Other than that, Qur'an also says that there are prophets that were mentionned by name in the Qur'an and others that are not mentionned by name opening the door to the possibility of accepting the idea that there have been prophets all around the world at different times, eras and places.

So, Michael, is he a/the mahdi?

Mahdi was not a prophet, he was Mohammad's descendant.

So, Michael, is he a/the mahdi?

If Mahdi was a prophet, he would return as Mahdi himself, but he isn't. Also, I don't see any doomsday yet ^^

 

[HIStory]

I want to respond to this one, too. Interesting! I also think that it lends credibility to the reality of Jesus' existence, that he is ALSO mentioned in the Quran.

The Quran was written some 600 years after Christianity was founded. Jesus mentioned in it only means that Muhammad knew the Bible.

 

[Autumn II]

Thank you! *can't find the flower

 

[MJJ7777]

WHAAAT? Michael NEVER claimed he was Jesus! In fact, in that 1993 interview with Oprah, he said he was NOT Jesus (why he found it necessary to say that, I'm not sure?)

There was an unfortunate incident, I think it was in Wales? When Michael was performing EarthSong. He actually stripped off his clothing (not what it seems. . . :wild to reveal. . . white robes. He was surrounded by children. And THEN? Some dude jumped on stage, dropped his drawers, and MOONED the audience. He said later that it was because of Michael's "Jesus portrayal," and that he found it offensive. (I think there's a video of the full-moon still around somewhere)

Really? oh...lol I have never heard of that incident.

Yes. He did say that. I'm hoping this thread doesn't go south, like so many others, in a debate as to Michael's spiritual beliefs. He was very, VERY careful to keep those private, although there is no doubt that he was a "deist," i.e. believed in God. But let's please try to avoid assertions of what he did and did not believe, or the thread will implode, as so many others of this nature have done.

I thought this is what you implied here ^^...maybe I read your post wrong because it had my head spinning for a second.

 

[HIStory]

WHAAAT? Michael NEVER claimed he was Jesus! In fact, in that 1993 interview with Oprah, he said he was NOT Jesus (why he found it necessary to say that, I'm not sure?)

There was an unfortunate incident, I think it was in Wales? When Michael was performing EarthSong. He actually stripped off his clothing (not what it seems. . . :wild to reveal. . . white robes. He was surrounded by children. And THEN? Some dude jumped on stage, dropped his drawers, and MOONED the audience. He said later that it was because of Michael's "Jesus portrayal," and that he found it offensive. (I think there's a video of the full-moon still around somewhere)

Yeah, that was Jarvis Cocker, the lead singer of the Brit Pop band, Pulp.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I want to respond to this one, too. Interesting! I also think that it lends credibility to the reality of Jesus' existence, that he is ALSO mentioned in the Quran.

As far as "no more prophets" are concerned? Like Christianity, Islam is a BELIEF system, not a FACTUAL/historical system, primarily. So as with any devout person -- he or she believes what he or she believes -- because that is what they BELIEVE. No proofs really possible, nor even necessary for a believer?

There is an interesting difference between the Bible and the Quran (FYI, if that's ok?) The Bible was written many years after Jesus' death. The Quran was written contemporarily with Mohammad, as TRANSCRIBER. In other words, it's said that he received the direct and untranslated words of God. In Arabic. And he just wrote them down. The Quran is a holy book, for that and other reasons, i.e there are prohibitions and right practices about how the physical BOOK should be treated and handled. It's not quite the same with the Bible, that can be stuffed into a back pocket, or laid on the ground, say, at a picnic, or whatever. So, the book of the Quran, itself, is a holy object.

That's because Qur'an is one book, whereas the Bible is a compilation of several books including (theologically speaking) words of God, but also accounts, narrations, stories etc.

Rationally? I think if there were once prophets (and I think there were), I can see no reason why that would not have continued. No way to prove any of that, of course.

Well, from the Islamic perspective, for the simple reason that many ancient scriptures were filled with gaps, hence people were divided. With this "last testament" it settles where people went apart from each other. As you said it was written down at times of Muhammad and preserved as such till today in the original language (no translation, hence no alteration).

Michael being a mahdi, I can understand but I'm not sure what really makes one a mahdi? Did Michael's life match up with that? I don't know but the definition of Jesus , the promised Messiah of the Old Testaments does not match up with Michael Jackson's life IMHO.

I was just jokingly asking the question. As I said Mahdi is like the last anounced messiah. Some believe Mahdi and Jesus are teh same person, soem believe they're two different people.

Does that sound like a contradiction, perhaps? I'm trying to see it through the glasses of a neutral bystander. So, a Prophet that clearly defines Islam, says that he's not the end of the story in a wider sense- and refers to Jesus?

No, there's no contradiction because according to Islam Jesus has not died nor fulfilled his mission, that's why he's come back is announced.

I mean, Muhammad refers to Jesus and the Dalai Lama encourages meditation upon Jesus... now why would that be? Is there some overlaying thing all religions strive for, and can that truly be manifested in personal physical manifestation? Or could be the allegory again that many seem to see?

As far as Islam is concerned, there is no allegory, it is the literal Jesus. There is no contradiction also because Qur'an clearly says that every nation in the world has had their messenger, some of their names are revealed in the Qur'an some not. So for example, Buddha is not named in the Qur'an, but we could speculate and assume that if the teachings of Buddha match that he most probably was one of those unamed messngers in the Qur'an that was sent to his contomporaries.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Yes, thank you for putting up with my waffled questions.


Aha! You say "what's the point, anyway?"

Angels... do you mind giving me the rundown of Angels in Islam? :cheeky:
Just to complete this thread, as it would be neat to compare how Judaism, Christianity and Islam view angels.

A number of people have spoken about Michael as an "angel", so I thought maybe it could be neat to check out humans and angels and everyone in between- and why it is that all religion speak to them so much.

Thank you! *can't find the flower

Islam views angels as beings made of light who are unable to do any wrongdoing and who are unconditionally faithful to God. They don't reproduce and they don't have gender.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

The Quran was written some 600 years after Christianity was founded. Jesus mentioned in it only means that Muhammad knew the Bible.

Let's not forget that in those times people din't go to schools or universities and that they were illiterate. They were probably aware of accounts though. However, we canot consider the Qur'anic account as a copy because Qur'an gives some details about Jesus that the Bible doesn't, and vice versa.

 

[MJJ7777]

I was just jokingly asking the question. As I said Mahdi is like the last anounced messiah. Some believe Mahdi and Jesus are teh same person, soem believe they're two different people.

I know lol i.e., the smiley at the end of your question. Likewise, I was halfway joking and trying to make a point in response.

Is this thread O/T now?

 

[Pentum]

Yes, thank you for putting up with my waffled questions.


Aha! You say "what's the point, anyway?"

Angels... do you mind giving me the rundown of Angels in Islam? :cheeky:
Just to complete this thread, as it would be neat to compare how Judaism, Christianity and Islam view angels.

A number of people have spoken about Michael as an "angel", so I thought maybe it could be neat to check out humans and angels and everyone in between- and why it is that all religion speak to them so much.

Thank you! *can't find the flower

Everyone has 2 angels following them 24/7 according to Islam. One on the left, one on the right. Their "job" is to write down the bad and the good stuff you do in your life.

When you are asleep, you are at the most vulnerable for beeing "attacked" demons in your dreams or IRL.

Angels can not be seen in this life, so Michael could not have been an angel. You can see them in the afterlife.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Everyone has 2 angels following them 24/7 according to Islam. One on the left, one on the right. Their "job" is to write down the bad and the good stuff you do in your life.

When you are asleep, you are at the most vulnerable for beeing "attacked" demons in your dreams or IRL.

Angels can not be seen in this life, so Michael could not have been an angel. You can see them in the afterlife.

Well, every angel has their assignment. Gabriel is the one who very often appeared as God's messenger.

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

Ah, thank you, too!

Here's another lovely flower, too.

 

[HIStory]

Let's not forget that in those times people din't go to schools or universities and that they were illiterate. They were probably aware of accounts though. However, we canot consider the Qur'anic account as a copy because Qur'an gives some details about Jesus that the Bible doesn't, and vice versa.

Well, not word by word copies, of course. In fact many stories in the Quran contradict the Biblical account, even though the core story and the characters in it are similar or the same. The point is, the fact the Quran mentiones characters that are in the Bible doesn't prove anything about the exsistence of those characters, since the Quran was written much later and Muhammad probably heard about all those Jewish and Christian stories and characters.

 

[Pentum]

BUMPER, are you a muslim?

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

Islam views angels as beings made of light who are unable to do any wrongdoing and who are unconditionally faithful to God. They don't reproduce and they don't have gender.

Aha, so, they serve God.

Everyone has 2 angels following them 24/7 according to Islam. One on the left, one on the right. Their "job" is to write down the bad and the good stuff you do in your life.


When you are asleep, you are at the most vulnerable for beeing "attacked" demons in your dreams or IRL.

Angels can not be seen in this life, so Michael could not have been an angel. You can see them in the afterlife.

So they also serve humanity, or who instructed them to do so, if the have no free will?

Well, every angel has their assignment. Gabriel is the one who very often appeared as God's messenger.

Who else is out there? Aren't there the Angels of the 7 Heavens? How come 7, in Islam as well?

So, no gender, no reproduction, no free will. Quite the list there.

 

[Autumn II]

Yeah, that was Jarvis Cocker, the lead singer of the Brit Pop band, Pulp.

It was VERY unfortunate.

BRIT Awards incident

See also: BRIT Awards#Michael Jackson and Jarvis Cocker (1996)

Cocker invaded the stage at the 1996 BRIT Awards in a spur of the moment protest against Michael Jackson's performance. Jackson was performing his hit "Earth Song" while surrounded by children and a rabbi. Cocker and his friend Peter Mansell (a former Pulp member) performed an impromptu stage invasion in protest.

Cocker was detained and interviewed by the police on suspicion of assault. He was accompanied by comedian Bob Mortimer, a former solicitor, who represented him in that capacity. He was subsequently released without charge. Opinions from the press on Cocker's actions were mixed. The 2 March 1996 edition of Melody Maker, for example, suggested Cocker should be knighted, and Noel Gallagher, of Oasis said that "Jarvis Cocker is a star" and should be awarded an MBE. Regarding his actions, Cocker said, "My actions were a form of protest at the way Michael Jackson sees himself as some kind of Christ-like figure with the power of healing... I just ran on the stage... I didn't make any contact with anyone as far as I recall."[SUP][3][/SUP]

On 2 July 2009 he appeared as a panellist on BBC TV's Question Time. He said that Jackson's recent death had been over-hyped by the media. When asked what he objected to about Michael Jackson at the time of the Brit Award incident, he reiterated his earlier comments about Jackson and Christ (whilst admitting he himself wasn't religious). When asked, "Otherwise as a performer you thought he was a genius?" Cocker replied, "He invented the moonwalk."[SUP][4][/SUP]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarvis_Cocker

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I know lol i.e., the smiley at the end of your question. Likewise, I was halfway joking and trying to make a point in response.

Is this thread O/T now?

Lol


Here, some on topic things:

 

[MJJ7777]

Lol


Here, some on topic things:

Thanks...I see Michael simply being Michael, [nothing more nothing less], just beautiful and breathtaking to watch as always.

 

[Autumn II]

Well, not word by word copies, of course. In fact many stories in the Quran contradict the Biblical account, even though the core story and the characters in it are similar or the same. The point is, the fact the Quran mentiones characters that are in the Bible doesn't prove anything about the exsistence of those characters, since the Quran was written much later and Muhammad probably heard about all those Jewish and Christian stories and characters.

Right. It doesn't PROVE anything. What it does do, though, is prove the POWER of the Jesus narratives in the Bible, to have persisted for so long, and into the present.

And, right, the details of Jesus are somewhat different in the Quran, i.e. the story of his birth, and other things.

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

...

Jackson was performing his hit "Earth Song" while surrounded by children and a rabbi. ...

...Cocker said, "My actions were a form of protest at the way Michael Jackson sees himself as some kind of Christ-like figure with the power of healing... ...

When asked what he objected to about Michael Jackson at the time of the Brit Award incident, he reiterated his earlier comments about Jackson and Christ (whilst admitting he himself wasn't religious). ...

Oh, I missed the part about a Rabbi being present up there. :rofl: I watched it a number of times and thought that was the part, but wasn't sure.

Endlessly fascinating that that a non-religious person would storm the stage in protest of someone whom they perceive to be depicting themselves as Jesus. Michael must have hit some deeply buried nerve, there, I suppose.

 

[Autumn II]

Oh, I missed the part about a Rabbi being present up there. :rofl: I watched it a number of times and thought that was the part, but wasn't sure.

Endlessly fascinating that that a non-religious person would storm the stage in protest of someone whom they perceive to be depicting themselves as Jesus. Michael must have hit some deeply buried nerve, there, I suppose.

Whatever else it was, the juxtaposition was ABSURD. Michael was OVERT in his depiction of Jesus. I mean, seriously? White robes? Children? And then this dude exposes his bare bum to the audience. So there is a robed Michael, and a moon-scape? Totally outrageous. And yes, fascinating. . . .

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

...

What an incredibly beautiful depiction of all the people walking the Earth.

 

[HIStory]

It was VERY unfortunate.

BRIT Awards incident

See also: BRIT Awards#Michael Jackson and Jarvis Cocker (1996)

Cocker invaded the stage at the 1996 BRIT Awards in a spur of the moment protest against Michael Jackson's performance. Jackson was performing his hit "Earth Song" while surrounded by children and a rabbi. Cocker and his friend Peter Mansell (a former Pulp member) performed an impromptu stage invasion in protest.

Cocker was detained and interviewed by the police on suspicion of assault. He was accompanied by comedian Bob Mortimer, a former solicitor, who represented him in that capacity. He was subsequently released without charge. Opinions from the press on Cocker's actions were mixed. The 2 March 1996 edition of Melody Maker, for example, suggested Cocker should be knighted, and Noel Gallagher, of Oasis said that "Jarvis Cocker is a star" and should be awarded an MBE. Regarding his actions, Cocker said, "My actions were a form of protest at the way Michael Jackson sees himself as some kind of Christ-like figure with the power of healing... I just ran on the stage... I didn't make any contact with anyone as far as I recall."[SUP][3][/SUP]

On 2 July 2009 he appeared as a panellist on BBC TV's Question Time. He said that Jackson's recent death had been over-hyped by the media. When asked what he objected to about Michael Jackson at the time of the Brit Award incident, he reiterated his earlier comments about Jackson and Christ (whilst admitting he himself wasn't religious). When asked, "Otherwise as a performer you thought he was a genius?" Cocker replied, "He invented the moonwalk."[SUP][4][/SUP]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarvis_Cocker

So he said his death was over-hyped while joining the same hype by talking about him in a TV programme in the wake of his death? Oh the irony! :smilerolleyes:

I can understand if someone religious would find such a scene offensive, however if Cocker admits to be not religious then I don't know what was his problem. If you don't consider Christ a deity then why would you find his "imitation" offensive? Oh well, perhaps he just wanted attention.

Frankly, I don't see what was so cool about the whole thing that all these brit poppers (Noel Gallagher) pat Cocker on the back over it. If anything, it's totally childish (both Cocker's actions and others congratulating him for it).

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

Whatever else it was, the juxtaposition was ABSURD. Michael was OVERT in his depiction of Jesus. I mean, seriously? White robes? Children? And then this dude exposes his bare bum to the audience. So there is a robed Michael, and a moon-scape? Totally outrageous. And yes, fascinating. . . . opcorn:

I think that's what's hard to follow. It's hard to fathom the "I'm just doing the righteous thing here" thought in mooning an audience that is watching children on stage.

I guess "who is the offensive one here?" sticks out as a question.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Aha, so, they serve God.

They serve God not because God needs them, but because they are thankful and is simply in their nature not to be bad. It's an inability of being bad. Just the way we are unable to see with our bear eyes infra red or ultra violet. Or if that latter example is not the best one in terms of comparison, we humans are able to do only what is within the limits of a human being. The same goes for the angelss

So they also serve humanity, or who instructed them to do so, if the have no free will?

This goes beyond human's understanding. They serve God, not the humanity. They know things we don't, they do have assignments, they are able to do only good things, but it does not mean they don't have free will. Not being able to do bad things does not mean there is absence of free will.

Who else is out there? Aren't there the Angels of the 7 Heavens? How come 7, in Islam as well?

According to islam there are also Jins (or spirits) livingin the parallel world who cannot be seen by humans, but who are able to show themselves to humans. They have genders, can reproduce and are able to do good or bad things.

The number 7 heavens is probably a symbollic number, however it must probably have an important mystical meaning. There are many, many references to the number seven. As far as I am concerned, the number seven represents the reality of the place and the moment. In other words, if you take A and B (length), C and D (height) and E and F (depth) you define a space. The intersection of those six points defining a space of "here and now" is the seventh point.

So, no gender, no reproduction, no free will. Quite the list there.

It's in their nature. It doesn't mean they don't have free will. They're just different. Theologically speaking, if we knew things they knew, maybe we'd act the same, i.e. be unable to do any bad deed and serve God, freewillingly.

 

[Pentum]

BUMPER, you didn't answer my question.

 

[Autumn II]

I think that's what's hard to follow. It's hard to fathom the "I'm just doing the righteous thing here" thought in mooning an audience that is watching children on stage.

I guess "who is the offensive one here?" sticks out as a question.

There exists a video of this, but it's very poor quality (hard to see). Michael was UPSET, afterward. Not for himself -- I guess he grew accustomed to absurdities? But because there were CHILDREN onstage, and they had been exposed to someone's bare bum, and also the scene was chaotic, with this dude running back and forth. It was mayhem, with Security running after him, and Michael forging ahead with the song.

Digressive, I know, but remember the outrageousness of that dude -- I think it was in Korea - -who jumped on the cherry-picker WITH Michael, and Michael continued on with singing EarthSong, but also wrapped his arm around the guy so he wouldn't fall? They were quite high up!

Michael's message has always been one of INCLUSION, and respect for differences. He sang it, and he showed it, in stage performances, videos (short-films) and in other ways. One of the most touching was in Black or White, when he moves laterally through eras and cultures, as a unifying force. Which he WAS, at least for some?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

BUMPER, you didn't answer my question.

Unfortunately I can't answer your question Pentum, as I wish to preserve my neutrality.

 

[HIStory]

Endlessly fascinating that that a non-religious person would storm the stage in protest of someone whom they perceive to be depicting themselves as Jesus. Michael must have hit some deeply buried nerve, there, I suppose.

You have put it better than I did. Indeed, fascinating. I never knew what to make of it but you are probably onto something with the deeply buried nerve.