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Preliminary Hearing 11/1/11. Day Six. Discussion Thread

Soundmind said:
The prosecution asked him about the possibility that MJ could have taken it orally since Flagan brought up that possibility with the coroner , he said unlikely. during break he made some calculations and come back telling them the amounts in his stomach was 45x the amount in his blood. No wonder he was throwing the word " known addict" everywhere. Probably when he made that calculation he said to himself " wait, he must have done it himself, he drunk it, but I should keep blaming Murray that's why I'm here"

After that he BACKTRACKED the calculations he made at noon , and admitted he might have done something wrong .


Don't worry, nothing in the autopsy is based on his opinion, he made it clear that he asked the coroner not to send the opinion of the expert quoted in the autopsy report because that could have "influenced his findings "

He is independent 'expert', asked to come ONLY because the DA did not want the defence to question the configuration of the IV set up which was bound to happen if the expert quoted in the autopsy report was called .
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We do NOT know "what he must have said to himself." Michael did NOT drink the propofol. That is totally absurd.
 
Justthefacts said:
This guy had nothing to do with the autopsy. He goofed up his math today. The coroner said Michael had small amounts of propofol in his stomach this guy said he had a lot more
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I'm so confused. So which one is correct? The coroner's report or this genius guy? And why did he feel the need to do any new calculations when we already had an official coroner's report?
 
He asked not to see the coroner's findings because he did not want them to influence his findings he was offering his opinion. He messed up his numbers. No big deal
 
my head hurts . anyone care to comment on the points below

1- Assuming that Murray gave MJ 25mg and MJ drank the rest - he needs to drink a large amount right? how much?

2a- again are the propofol bottles easily pourable?
2b- Wasn't the only needles available 10ml needles? so if the answer to question 1 is "a lot" and to 2a. is "not pourable" are we saying MJ took multiple times to fill the needle and push it into the juice cups?

3 - if he drank propofol, it wouldn't travel from his stomach right? I mean it wouldn't be found in his blood, eyes, liver etc right?

4- seriously what happens if you drink it?

read this " Well, to start with, it would taste nasty. It has a smell that's reminiscent of industrial chemicals, and it's oily. Yuk. I think that ingestion of a significant amount of it would cause vomiting. It is not supposed to be pharmacologically active when taken orally (as compared to fospropofol, which is)."

It doesn't seem like drinking it causes an instant death , cardiac arrest , respiratory arrest right? Plus it doesn't seem like sleep is induced by drinking it.

5- what about "dark liquid in the stomach" and that it's not white? yesterday we learned that propofol was oily and it would stay white for a while.

did I say my head hurts?
 
I hope some of you who post here can get yourselves together before the trial and stop being a conduit for every lie put forth by the Devil Murray and his paid associates. :smilerolleyes:
 
Ok, I'll try that again. There are two versions in this guy's testimony:

1) Not enough found in stomach to suggest he drank it.

and

2) 45 x as much as in blood found in the stomach, which could suggest that he drank it.

I'm just trying to find out which version went on record as the correct one. The posts here were a bit too confusing for me.
 

So the correct calculation was the first one, not the 45 x as much as in blood one?
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He had never had a first calculation , he had never considered that option , too much for an expert. When he heard the defence brought up that possibility he for THE FIRST TIME made some screwed up calculations during the break and came back saying the dose in MJ's stomach was 45x of that in his blood.

When he was questioned , he said he had to speak to the coroner and go over the concentrations again .

As I said he's not used to speak for victims, it was an awkward situation for him, we should "excuse" him
 
Justthefacts said:
He asked not to see the coroner's findings because he did not want them to influence his findings he was offering his opinion. He messed up his numbers. No big deal
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It's the media that worries me. They will take that and twist it.
 
jemini515 said:
Are we sure a smooth criminal attacked Annie in her apartment? Maybe SHE invited him in and ran into the knife!

Rolls eyes, can't stand these clowns in suits anymore. I miss Michael so bad.
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Yeah, and to think Michael even sang "mouth to mouth resuscitation, sounding heart beats, intimidations."

Maybe he should have added "CPR TWO HANDED and NOT on the freakin' bed!!" :(
 
Milka said:
Ok, I'll try that again. There are two versions in this guy's testimony:

1) Not enough found in stomach to suggest he drank it.

and

2) 45 x as much as in blood found in the stomach, which could suggest that he drank it.

I'm just trying to find out which version went on record as the correct one. The posts here were a bit too confusing for me.
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The coroner said not enough in his stomach. This guy said it was 45x amount in his blood and he was wrong.
 
ivy said:
my head hurts . anyone care to comment on the points below

1- Assuming that Murray gave MJ 25mg and MJ drank the rest - he needs to drink a large amount right? how much?

2a- again are the propofol bottles easily pourable?
2b- Wasn't the only needles available 10ml needles? so if the answer to question 1 is "a lot" and to 2a. is "not pourable" are we saying MJ took multiple times to fill the needle and push it into the juice cups?

3 - if he drank propofol, it wouldn't travel from his stomach right? I mean it wouldn't be found in his blood, eyes, liver etc right?

4- seriously what happens if you drink it?

read this " Well, to start with, it would taste nasty. It has a smell that's reminiscent of industrial chemicals, and it's oily. Yuk. I think that ingestion of a significant amount of it would cause vomiting. It is not supposed to be pharmacologically active when taken orally (as compared to fospropofol, which is)."

It doesn't seem like drinking it causes an instant death , cardiac arrest , respiratory arrest right? Plus it doesn't seem like sleep is induced by drinking it.

5- what about "dark liquid in the stomach" and that it's not white? yesterday we learned that propofol was oily and it would stay white for a while.
did I say my head hurts?
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There is no indication whatsoever that Michael was suicidal. He DID have some medical knowledge. He would NEVER have intentionally drunk propofol.

If the tactic used at trial is that "Michael drank the propofol," the counter tactic could be used, that "WHO put it in the juice-box?" If someone actually did that, that is premeditated MURDER. NOT a viable defense, IMHO.
 
Soundmind said:
He had never had a first calculation , he had never considered that option , too much for an expert. When he heard the defence brought up that possibility he for THE FIRST TIME made some screwed up calculations during the break and came back saying the dose in MJ's stomach was 45x of that in his blood.

When he was questioned , he said he had to speak to the coroner and go over the concentrations again .
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Oh, ok. That's bad, really bad, what an idiot. I'm just a little worried (not much though) that some kind of quick and possibly wrong calculation is on record now. The defense must love that ...
 
marebear said:
It's the media that worries me. They will take that and twist it.
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Yes. It seems they have already done. Anyway, I believe wholeheartedly that Michael NEVER drank prop and I will go with the coroner's report. Even this expert said he has to talk to the coroner. The coroner will be the key in the trial. I am not going to bother about this now.
 
Milka said:
Oh, ok. That's bad, really bad, what an idiot. I'm just a little worried (not much though) that some kind of quick and possibly wrong calculation is on record now. The defense must love that ...
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Yes, I'm sure the defense loves it. Thank you SO much, Soundmind, for pointing that out.
 
Milka said:
Oh, ok. That's bad, really bad, what an idiot. I'm just a little worried (not much though) that some kind of quick and possibly wrong calculation is on record now. The defense must love that ...
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nothing to love his calculations are wrong.
 
Autumn II said:
There is no indication whatsoever that Michael was suicidal. He DID have some medical knowledge. He would NEVER have intentionally drunk propofol.
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I agree nothing Murray and his lawyers say makes sense. I mean Murray even claimed that MJ liked to inject the propofol himself and other doctors allowed it.

if that's the case why would he drink it, if he likes to inject it?

marebear said:
I understand he made a mistake but I hope they don't use him at the trial.
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well the defense could call him. remember there are two sides.
 
Pace said:
Yeah, and to think Michael even sang "mouth to mouth resuscitation, sounding heart beats, intimidations."

Maybe he should have added "CPR TWO HANDED and NOT on the freakin' bed!!" :(
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Yes. By the way Pace, where is that quote from Mez about looking at the case as a totality. I need to see it now because I have to remind myself that some witnesses or some days will have more positive news than others and I have to look at the testimonies as a totality. In that way I don't freak out. I almost did with that guy who needed more math skills.
 
Justthefacts said:
nothing to love his calculations are wrong.
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A lot to love - they can still use it and twist it at the trial. "Didn't you say this and that at the hearing?" Or if the prosecution gets some other expert for the trial "How do you explain what the other expert said at the hearing?"
 
ivy said:
I agree nothing Murray and his lawyers say makes sense. I mean Murray even claimed that MJ liked to inject the propofol himself and other doctors allowed it.

if that's the case why would he drink it, if he likes to inject it?



well the defense could call him. remember there are two sides.
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But why would they when he already said he messed up? Oh yeah look at who I am talking about
 
ivy said:
my head hurts . anyone care to comment on the points below

1- Assuming that Murray gave MJ 25mg and MJ drank the rest - he needs to drink a large amount right? how much?

2a- again are the propofol bottles easily pourable?
2b- Wasn't the only needles available 10ml needles? so if the answer to question 1 is "a lot" and to 2a. is "not pourable" are we saying MJ took multiple times to fill the needle and push it into the juice cups?

3 - if he drank propofol, it wouldn't travel from his stomach right? I mean it wouldn't be found in his blood, eyes, liver etc right?

4- seriously what happens if you drink it?

read this " Well, to start with, it would taste nasty. It has a smell that's reminiscent of industrial chemicals, and it's oily. Yuk. I think that ingestion of a significant amount of it would cause vomiting. It is not supposed to be pharmacologically active when taken orally (as compared to fospropofol, which is)."

It doesn't seem like drinking it causes an instant death , cardiac arrest , respiratory arrest right? Plus it doesn't seem like sleep is induced by drinking it.

5- what about "dark liquid in the stomach" and that it's not white? yesterday we learned that propofol was oily and it would stay white for a while.

did I say my head hurts?
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this is from yahoo answers

Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
Here's what happens. It gets absorbed into the portal circulation, goes straight to the liver, is metabolized, makes its way to the kidney and is excreted.
Source(s):
Pharmacist
6 months ago Report Abuse
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ivy said:
my head hurts . anyone care to comment on the points below

1- Assuming that Murray gave MJ 25mg and MJ drank the rest - he needs to drink a large amount right? how much?

2a- again are the propofol bottles easily pourable?
2b- Wasn't the only needles available 10ml needles? so if the answer to question 1 is "a lot" and to 2a. is "not pourable" are we saying MJ took multiple times to fill the needle and push it into the juice cups?

3 - if he drank propofol, it wouldn't travel from his stomach right? I mean it wouldn't be found in his blood, eyes, liver etc right?

4- seriously what happens if you drink it?

read this " Well, to start with, it would taste nasty. It has a smell that's reminiscent of industrial chemicals, and it's oily. Yuk. I think that ingestion of a significant amount of it would cause vomiting. It is not supposed to be pharmacologically active when taken orally (as compared to fospropofol, which is)."

It doesn't seem like drinking it causes an instant death , cardiac arrest , respiratory arrest right? Plus it doesn't seem like sleep is induced by drinking it.

5- what about "dark liquid in the stomach" and that it's not white? yesterday we learned that propofol was oily and it would stay white for a while.

did I say my head hurts?
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The woman who testified yesterday from the coroner's office said, they found 70 mg of liquids in MJ's stomach . Out of those 70mg they found only 1.4 mg propofol:smilerolleyes: of course with blood .

The expert had no answers for your questions and I clearly don't but from everything we know about propofol this is not at all a plausible theory and will be shut down once the hemorrhage from the stomach walls caused by resuscitation attempts is delivered as an explanation by the coroner.
 
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