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Preliminary Hearing 11/1/11. Day Six. Discussion Thread

yaazgurl said:
I don't understand the last sentence. So he can still practice in Texas and Nevada? If this is so then this is going through the motions this is not justice.
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currently he can but he has to notify the other medical boards in 24 hours which means that they can seek a suspension of his licence as well.
 
ivy said:
currently he can but he has to notify the other medical boards in 24 hours which means that they can seek a suspension of his licence as well.
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I reckon they should just yank his licencse all together
 
ivy;3187549 said:
From Trials and Tribulations unedited draft updates

Closing statements

Murray's lawyers arguments

- We have never heard the time of death, if we knew the time of death we can find out who is involved.

- Murray saw MJ everyday for 3 months, he would know how MJ interacted with these drugs better than the other doctors.

- We heard from an anethesiologist what he would use as a standard of care. We didn’t hear from a cardiologist in a similar situation and training.

- Murray injected around 10:40 so if Dr. Murray was away from MJ, how could he have given another dose of propofol? so what was going on between 11 am and 12 am? That goes to show you right there that Dr. Murry could not have given that dose, he was on the phone.


Prosecutor Walgren's Arguments

- Walgren is very angry and passionately in a loud voice, arguing his case.

- It was not MJ time to go. MJ's children are without a father.The reason MJ is not here today, is because of the careless, negligence careless incompetence of Murray. MJ is dead at the hands of Murray.

- Walgren goes over what is heard in the testimonies.

- Walgren mentions Murray's timeline "According to Murray’s own timeline, that he let MJ lie there for over an hour not breathing. Or he could be lying about his timeline, and Murray is not being truthful about his timeline. Third option, is that Dr. Murray is so utterly so incompetent and reckless, that he has no idea what he gave him or when."

- Judge Pastor denies the defense's motion to dismiss the case.

- Walgren asks for an increase in the bail amount. (wants it to be $300,000). Judge denies this as he doesn't think Murray is a flight risk.

- Ms. Saunders of Medical board goes over the testimony and asks the judge to suspend Murray's medical licence. Judge grants that request.

- Arraignment is set for January 25th, at 8:30 am.
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As I've said before....this is why I absolutely LOVE Murray's lawyers....they don't have a CLUE of what is going on and what they are talking about!!! :kickass: :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: I almost feel sorry for them because it is seriously EMBARRASING! :lol: :lol:

Also, I hope they will bring this "other cardiologist" to the courtroom as their witness during the trial, so that the medical board can suspend that doctor's license too as soon as that doctor admits to using Propofol the same way Murray did! :clapping:I wonder if Murray's lawyers really even UNDERSTAND what their statements will mean to Murray and/or the other doctor!! :doh::doh::doh: I mean, if they have IN COURT hinted that there is someone ELSE using Propofol with no regard to the STANDARD OF CARE...and pretty much putting their patients in a life-threatening situatution every single time...can't the prosecution make them tell who that is so that the prosecution can go after that doctor as well? (Unless Murray's lawyers will hand-deliver that doctor to prosecution in court by using him as a "witness" (let's hope!! :angel::lol:))

Anyways...don't think the trial will last long. You could pretty much rule Murray guilty already. Save everyone's time. Clearly his own defense doesn't have ANY kind of clue about what the witness testimonies from the EXPERTS mean...and just like Murray didn't care to educate himself about Propofol before giving it to MJ....clearly his defense team hasn't bothered to educate themselves either. Well, Dr. Murray....what goes around comes around, I guess. Karma is a bitch. -_-

And now they try to make it sound like Murray was indeed away from the room for almost an hour. Like I've said from the beginning...no matter WHAT way you twist it...Murray is doomed. There is just no way out.



prettygirlmj;3187552 said:
Is Murray going straight to jail from here or is he still free?
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That was only the preliminary hearing. Only after the trial we'll know what his sentance will be WHEN found guilty (I won't even use the "if found guilty" because there is no way he will get any other verdict).

elusive moonwalker;3187566 said:
LOL i told u it was the nation of islam


LOL a cardiologist would never use diprivan cause hes not trained to use it u idiots. whoops yeah just like your client. i guess they are saying all cardos are as thick and untrained as murray.




isnt that an admittance of guilt LOL i wasnt even in the room for an hour!
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The more they talk, the worse it gets for Murray. -_- The defense was clearly overwhealmed with the case. It went right off their heads. They clearly do not have a CLUE of what was being said by the witnesses...especially the expert witnesses. And yes, they don't have medical background, so they are not expected to know....BUT...as lawyers, you'd think they would want to EDUCATE themselves about the medical stuff and call experts and ask what it means. On the other hnd, not really sure how many anesthesiologists would even be willing to talk to them. However, they could still explain them the standard of care and why it's important. And I'll say this....if all this "standard of care" talk is coming from MURRAY and this "other cardiologist"....I am REALLY beginning to wonder if either of them really are doctors...especially doctors who have their patients' well-being as teir first priority. Because ANY doctor and nurse knows what a STANDARD OF CARE means. It pretty much means "THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT. PERIOD." And there is no way a CARDIOLOGIST can go tell an ANESTHESIOLOGIST "Well, no...actually I know more than you...so I'll just do it this way! I'll just make up my OWN 'standard of care'"....:doh: That's the POINT of "STANDARD of care"....you don't just create your OWN..especially if it is not your field of expertise!!. :doh::doh::doh::doh: That's like the anesthesiologist would start telling the CARDIOLOGIST how to treat HIS patients....Or it would be the same as if a doctor specialized in neonatology would go tell a doctor working in a geriatric facility how to best treat the elderly patients! :doh::doh::doh: Or even better...VICE VERSA! :doh::doh::doh::doh: Even I as a nurse can't invent my own ways to do things at the hospital and then go "Well...that was according to MY standard of care...". :crazy: :lol:


Milka;3187574 said:
And I doubt they will ever find another cardiologist in the whole, wide world who ever did any of those things that Murray did. A cardiologist treating insomnia with Propofol, at the patient's home and without proper equipment. That's like trying to find an anesthesiologist who performed heart surgery during his/her career.
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And if they did....be assured the medical board and the prosecutor will go after that doctor next! :kickass: :lol: :lol:

ivy;3187582 said:
Murray's defense is grasping at straws

- We don't know the time of death - they act like MJ's room had a revolving door and 10,000 people walked in the room. Geez. but we already know what they are trying - if the time of death period comes around the bodyguards called in the room, they might argue that bodyguards did it. (Alberto's prints should be on some items).

- 10:40 injection : Goes to Murray was outside and MJ injected himself theory. Doesn't explain why Murray left Michael alone or lied about his timeline to the detectives though.

- Standards of care differs among different doctors - is plain ridiculous. for months we heard from people in the medical area and they all say the same basics - it isn't given in a home setting and you need to monitor.
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The whole thing is just absolutely RIDICILOUS!!! But....at least we know the defense has nothing and doesn't even have an IDEA of what they are talking about. :lol: GO MURRAY'S DEFENSE TEAM!!! :kickass: I wonder if they are just as disgusted by what Murray did that they are not even trying. :scratch:Or if they just really are that dumb? :scratch:In that case "dumb and dumber" have just created the new "dream team". Clueless doctor meets clueless lawyer....:lol:

Vici;3187584 said:
Exactly!! Lol, first in the search warrant it said Murray told detective Martinez that he gave MJ propofol at 10:40 am.. when that became public, he denied that story. And now here again, the defense is actually saying he gave it 10:40.. and then found him at 11am.. meaning it took him more than a hour to call for assitance..



Exactly, goes to that Murray must have been outside the room for more than 1 hour. Dipshit
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Murray has been doomed from day one.





Look at this...Murray's defense team in court....:hysterical::hysterical:

<EMBED height=385 type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=480 src=http://www.youtube.com/v/sxAk3B_zS5k?fs=1&hl=de_DE allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true">

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This is pretty much like Murray's lawyers in court....Especially Curly's last comment "Is everybody dumb?!" after the prosecutor tells him to talk in a way that the jury understands him while in the witness stand, cracked me up because that was like Murray's lawyer during his closing arguements! "That was the standard of care the ANESTHESIOLOGIST uses.....not the standard of care another CARDIOLOGIST while using Propofol." :doh::doh: (In other words..how would an anesthesiologist know what a proper standard of care is...I mean, *sarcasm alert from now on* it's not like the standard of care would be CREATED by a group of anesthesiologists..who you'd think are the experts for proper care during ANESTHESIA....nnnoooo....CARDIOLOGISTS are far more experienced :yes:....I mean, don't dermatologists determine what the proper care for neurological procedures is as well?-_- I mean, Dr. Klein could easily perform brain surgery...why wouldn't he be able to? He's a DOCTOR, isn't he? And he would just use HIS standard of care while operating on someone's brain...what the NEUROSURGEON would do would be irrelevant, because you can use your own standard...right? :mello::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh: I mean...I used to be a NANNY too...so.... (Like one thing would have to do with another....(Re: "I used to be a marine...." :huh: :lol:)
 
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you know what I'm reading the expert's testimony not the coroner and he kept calling MJ a known addict and Murray should have never left a known addict with a syringe of propofol, "

I'm frustrated really, is he going to go on the stand infront of a jury and every two sentences call MJ a known addict !!!!!
 
Soundmind said:
you know what I'm reading the expert's testimony not the coroner and he kept calling MJ a known addict and Murray should have never left a known addict with a syringe of propofol, "

I'm frustrated really, is he going to go on the stand infront of a jury and every two sentences call MJ a known addict !!!!!
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he probably will..but ya know what..the coroner''s finding from the autopsy will contradict what it is the expert is saying.....the report speaks for itself. No evidence of Michael being an addict of any type.
 
Yes didnt the autopsy say it shows mj was no addict?
 
twinklEE said:
I hope the ears of certain middle aged men and women were listening carefully, especially the ears of a bald headed man, and a short haired woman.
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HA ha, thank you for this. I needed that. When I think of all the times we had to say READ THE AUTOPSY REPORT. Now lets see if the news picks up that Michael was healthy.
 
xthunderx2 said:
he probably will..but ya know what..the coroner''s finding from the autopsy will contradict what it is the expert is saying.....the report speaks for itself. No evidence of Michael being an addict of any type.
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No, there is NO evidence that Michael was an addict. However, that does not prevent the defense from throwing in the "addict" word at every opportunity. For most of the general public, that's all they will ever know. We must continue to be advocates for Michael, at every opportunity.
 
he probably will..but ya know what..the coroner''s finding from the autopsy will contradict what it is the expert is saying.....the report speaks for itself. No evidence of Michael being an addict of any type
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Hopefully they won't call his ass during the trial, I do remember there were reports the coroner contacted many experts to analyze the toxicology findings, he used one of them today. Hopefully he will use someone else during the trial.
He said he usually testifies in favor of defendants who are doctors, so probably he is very used to throw the word " a known addict" to clear the defendants, it must have been an awkward situation for him to testify for once for the VICTIM . Sorry but he ruined my day

The expert who ruled MJ could not have done it was not called. The coroner said she told him MJ would not have been able to administer any of the drugs

Also, they said the doses for the benzos were "MUCH HIGHER " than what Murray admitted to.
 
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Soundmind said:
you know what I'm reading the expert's testimony not the coroner and he kept calling MJ a known addict and Murray should have never left a known addict with a syringe of propofol, "

I'm frustrated really, is he going to go on the stand infront of a jury and every two sentences call MJ a known addict !!!!!
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I think he was just going by Murray's testimony. Murray had said that he had become "concerned" that MJ was developing an addiction to Propofol (again note that any possible addiction started under MURRAY's care anyways...)and was trying to wean him off (yes and that's why he ordered a bus load of Propofol...makes sense. :doh:). So to me the witness was just testifying that if that was the case and Murray is saying he KNEW Michael was addicted to Propofol...it would be even MORE reckless to leave the room and leave MJ alone in the room while he has a working i.v. and the Propofol and everything you need to inject it are right next to his bed. If you know someone is an addict ESPECIALLY then you do NOT leave them alone in a room with the drug they're addicted to or have a problem with. He mentioned a heroin addict...in other words...it would be the same if you would first start an i.v. and then leave the person with heroin addiction (and especially after they have asked you for the drug prior to that, according to you yourself) in a room all alone with syringes and enough heroin to overdose right in front of him. Your actions would be just as reckless in that case and if that person did overdose, it would be your fault, because you were the doctor who was supposed to be looking out for your patient.

So it was important to address that aspect, because it was Murray himself who brought it up, and that testimony (just like all the others) pretty much crushed yet another defense theory. The defense won't be able to use "leaving MJ alone" as Murray's defense...because if he left the room, he was reckless...not only because if he was not there, then he was not able to monitor MJ and you do NOT leave the patient alone when giving Propofol. Period. But also, if he tries to use "MJ was addicted...and self-administered" as hid defense...he is admitting he was AWARE Michael had an addiction problem with Propofol (now, whether MJ did or didn't...what's relevant is what Murray said his opinion was on it and how he acted based on it...) and he STILL chose to leave MJ alone with an i.v and with the drugs and syringes right next to him. It's just reckless no matter hwo you look at it. That's what's relevant.
 
Soundmind said:
you know what I'm reading the expert's testimony not the coroner and he kept calling MJ a known addict and Murray should have never left a known addict with a syringe of propofol, "

I'm frustrated really, is he going to go on the stand infront of a jury and every two sentences call MJ a known addict !!!!!
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xthunderx2 said:
he probably will..but ya know what..the coroner''s finding from the autopsy will contradict what it is the expert is saying.....the report speaks for itself. No evidence of Michael being an addict of any type.
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8701girl said:
Yes didnt the autopsy say it shows mj was no addict?
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Autumn II said:
No, there is NO evidence that Michael was an addict. However, that does not prevent the defense from throwing in the "addict" word at every opportunity. For most of the general public, that's all they will ever know. We must continue to be advocates for Michael, at every opportunity.
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My understanding is slight different in this case.

Remember Murray told detectives that he thought Michael was getting addicted / forming a dependency to propofol and that he was trying to wean Michael from Propofol.

Plus later on Murray says Michael demanded his milk.

All of these statements by Murray shows he knew or thought that Michael had developed an dependency/addiction to propofol.

The expert is mentioning that it's wrong if Murray knowingly left Propofol with such person.

think like this: if a person has a dependency to something and begs for it and you say no but leave it around what will they do? they'll take it / use it. it's basic logic you don't have to be a rocket scientist to come to this conclusion. and that's why they are saying it's still a homicide even if Michael injected himself - because Murray provided the means.

so what I'm saying that "known addict" doesn't necessarily mean a long term factual addiction but Murray's own personal belief of a dependency presence.
 
Soundmind said:
Hopefully they won't call his ass during the trial, I do remember their were reports the coroner contacted many experts to analyze the toxicology findings, he used one of them today. Hopefully he will use someone else during the trial.

The expert who ruled MJ could not have done it was not called. The coroner said she told him MJ would not have been able to administer any of the drugs

Also, they said the doses for the benzos were "MUCH HIGHER " than what Murray admitted to.
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they are gonna continue to drag the Name Michael Jackson through the mud...regardless if what they are saying are lies or not....they wont care...what we need to remember i that they cannot hurt Michael anymore. yes you are correct somone did say the benzos were much higher that Murray stated..that was common sense on their part.
 
ivy said:
My understanding is slight different in this case.

Remember Murray told detectives that he thought Michael was getting addicted / forming a dependency to propofol and that he was trying to wean Michael from Propofol.

Plus later on Murray says Michael demanded his milk.

All of these statements by Murray shows he knew or thought that Michael had developed an dependency/addiction to propofol.

The expert is mentioning that it's wrong if Murray knowingly left Propofol with such person.

think like this: if a person has a dependency to something and begs for it and you say no but leave it around what will they do? they'll take it / use it. it's basic logic you don't have to be a rocket scientist to come to this conclusion. and that's why they are saying it's still a homicide even if Michael injected himself - because Murray provided the means.

so what I'm saying that "known addict" doesn't necessarily mean a long term factual addiction but Murray's own personal belief of a dependency presence.
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Exactly. We posted the same thing at the same time! :lol:
 
summer said:
I think he was just going by Murray's testimony. Murray had said that he had become "concerned" that MJ was developing an addiction to Propofol (again note that any possible addiction started under MURRAY's care anyways...)and was trying to wean him off (yes and that's why he ordered a bus load of Propofol...makes sense. :doh:). So to me the witness was just testifying that if that was the case and Murray is saying he KNEW Michael was addicted to Propofol...it would be even MORE reckless to leave the room and leave MJ alone in the room while he has a working i.v. and the Propofol and everything you need to inject it are right next to his bed. If you know someone is an addict ESPECIALLY then you do NOT leave them alone in a room with the drug they're addicted to or have a problem with. He mentioned a heroin addict...in other words...it would be the same if you would first start an i.v. and then leave the person with heroin addiction (and especially after they have asked you for the drug prior to that, according to you yourself) in a room all alone with syringes and enough heroin to overdose right in front of him. Your actions would be just as reckless in that case and if that person did overdose, it would be your fault, because you were the doctor who was supposed to be looking out for your patient.

So it was important to address that aspect, because it was Murray himself who brought it up, and that testimony (just like all the others) pretty much crushed yet another defense theory. The defense won't be able to use "leaving MJ alone" as Murray's defense...because if he left the room, he was reckless...not only because if he was not there, then he was not able to monitor MJ and you do NOT leave the patient alone when giving Propofol. Period. But also, if he tries to use "MJ was addicted...and self-administered" as hid defense...he is admitting he was AWARE Michael had an addiction problem with Propofol (now, whether MJ did or didn't...what's relevant is what Murray said his opinion was on it and how he acted based on it...) and he STILL chose to leave MJ alone with an i.v and with the drugs and syringes right next to him. It's just reckless no matter hwo you look at it. That's what's relevant.
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exactly
 
k got it thanks for all who gave me the link. Is there anything i can post on facebook that will let people know that Michael wasnt an addict.?
i need help over there and i cant do it alone.
 
Howard Weitzman, the attorney for John Branca and John McClain, co-executors of the Estate of Michael Jackson, told RadarOnline.com: &#8220;The judge&#8217;s ruling ordering Dr. Murray to stand trial for the death of Michael Jackson is perfectly appropriate given the testimony in this case.&#8221;
 
ivy;3187671 said:
Howard Weitzman, the attorney for John Branca and John McClain, co-executors of the Estate of Michael Jackson, told RadarOnline.com: “The judge’s ruling ordering Dr. Murray to stand trial for the death of Michael Jackson is perfectly appropriate given the testimony in this case.”
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thanks for this Ivy,
 
I wonder, sometimes, why others don't see Michael in the way that WE do? As a mega-talent, but more than that, as a kind, generous, loving human-being? Is it that the media influence is just too pervasive? Is it that some members of his own FAMILY did not know when to keep quiet about something they did not KNOW? (sure, that's been part of it, and SHAME!) Is it that most people live superficially and don't bother to do the work to cut through the media hype and find out what a situation, or a PERSON, is really about? I see that as our role, more than anything, to tell about and spread the love the Michael really was all about, more than anything.

I'm devastated by the light charges, but sadly, I expected them. (FYI, there will be more from M.J.A.N. in the coming days/weeks, continuing to call for accountability and justice.)

Even though the results were not what many of us wanted, there was a bright moment, at least. Which is, that Murray will not be practicing medicine, at least for awhile. Michael lost his LIFE, and Murray lost his career. It's not total justice, but it IS a step toward that.

Michael was NOT a addict. But, what if he was? Would that make us love him less, and if so, why? Would that negate the horror that Murray did to him? No, it would not. Michael was human. But, he was NOT an addict, as evidence has shown.

Truth runs marathons, and it is NOT over.
 
xthunderx2 said:
.....


Because HE IS Michael Jackson....the world just was not ready for such a wonderful human being. I think God sent him here for as test for man kind...well guess what ??...we failed....so God took him back....why should Michael have to suffer in a world that didn't appreciate him.
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You verbalized what I've been feeling for the last eight years. The human race failed miserably in God's test. Humanity bullied Michael into an early grave because the bad people in this world felt threatened by his purity and innocence. Unfortunately, bad people seem to outnumber the good. I can only hope that they all burn in Hell when their time comes.
 
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Co-sign everything you just said, Autumn. Wish I had some answers. Man, what an emotionally exhausting week. How are we going to get though a whole trial? *Sigh* So, what can we expect after the arraignment? Assuming his plea is still "Not guilty", what happens next?
 
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