Preliminary Hearing 5/1/11 Day two. Discussion thread

[Asedora]

We won't start a conversation here about his weight! Michael has been thin all his life and this is not a cause of death!

Why we should not start it here? Why? The paramedics testified and it was officially documented. Why we can discuss cream and anything esle, but not his weight?

 

[ginvid]

Let's move on from the talk of underweight or not. we have a coroner's report and will defer to this until we get more information.

Thank you.

This is the cut off point.

 

[ForeverKOP]

exactly and mj had a bladder problem as he was taking flomax

Can somebody confirm this?

This reason for the catheter seems to sound more accurate:

MJ was to be put out for the whole night. They were not going to wake him up for a bathroom break. Hence he needed to have a catheter. For overnight.

Which one is it?

 

[marebear]

Will this really last 2 weeks? Because the last 2 days has shown enough cause to go to trial. That's how I feel. How much worse can it get people saying he wanted to get rid of bottles and lying to paramedics?

 

[StaceyMJ]

Can somebody confirm this?

This reason for the catheter seems to sound more accurate:



Which one is it?

Probably a combination of both.

 

[ivy]

CNN In Session

Senneff is being questioned by prosecutor David Walgren.

Senneff was the first firefighter to go inside of MJ’s home on June 25th.

Senneff says Conrad Murray never told him that he’d given MJ Propofol, Murray only mentioned giving him MJ Lorazepam.

Senneff says paramedics hooked MJ up to an EKG and he was flatline-his hands and feet ‘tinged blue’ and his pupils were fully dilated.

Senneff thinks MJ had been dead at least 20 minutes before paramedics arrived.

 

[ginvid]

Can somebody confirm this?

This reason for the catheter seems to sound more accurate:



Which one is it?

What Elusive said was accurate according to the autopsy report. That could have had a bearing on needing to use the catheter.

So they both could be correct as they both could be contributing factors that maded it necessary for a condom catheter.

 

[Petrarose]

Thanks for all the updates. During the break I hope some people revisit the autopsy report so they can discuss here more accurately.

 

[ScrEAm.Jack5on]

This is an update someone wrote up from the live stream.

Paramedics testifying said "we asked what is wrong here" on arrival.

Thought MJ was a 'hospice patient' when they walked into the bedroom.

He was pale, very underweight, had a sleep cap on.

Asked Murray "what happened here", Murray said, "I don't know".

Paramedics: "when did this happen"?

Murray: "Just now"-

Paramedics said he immediately knew Murray was lying.

Paramedic: "Have you given him anything"?

Murray: "I just gave him some Lorazepam in his IV"

Paramedic: "Again knew he was lying. Body was cold, white, lifeless, completely unresponsive, feet blue. Knew that this had not just happened"

Murray: "He had a rehearsal last night & I was treating him for dehydration"

Paramedic: "Again, I knew immediately that wasn't all & this had not just occured. He was lying."

Where is this coming from?
How long would it take for the feet to go blue?

 

[Ingelief]

can i ask about if the scene we are now hearing about, him with a hairthing on, on ivs and catheter etc you know.. i was wondering murray told that he gave michael two months propofol? nomather how long but would the scene also be like this another night?

because the children could come in right? i know when i was little a always went to my parents room.. little as in blanket

 

[eldatezeno]

Thanks for posting the updates everyone

 

[ginvid]

I'm really sorry guys, but we really have to move on from that topic and back to what is happening in the court room. Please feel free to PM one another or go to the chatroom to speak in real time about his weight if you like.

Thank you.

 

[Autumn II]

If this isn't "Murder 2," then I really can't imagine what IS?

From FindLaw (site for legal questions)

@font-face { font-family: "Times"; }@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }h1 { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 24pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-weight: bold; }a:link, span.MsoHyperlink { color: blue; text-decoration: underline; }a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { color: purple; text-decoration: underline; }p { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }span.Heading1Char { font-family: Times; font-weight: bold; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; } http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_second_degree.html


Murder: Second degree

​

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

 

[Cookie Monzter]

exactly and mj had a bladder problem as he was taking flomax
Can somebody confirm this?

This reason for the catheter seems to sound more accurate:

Originally Posted by ginvid
MJ was to be put out for the whole night. They were not going to wake him up for a bathroom break. Hence he needed to have a catheter. For overnight.


Which one is it?

Likely to be the second one.

Flomax is typically a treatment for prostatic problems. The post-mortem report stated that Michael's prostate was enlarged, confirming this. Most common symptoms are difficulty passing urine, poor flow etc. You wouldn't generally need a catheter for something like this.

 

[mthalen]

Also wondering what Ingelief asked... I assume the children were told not to go into the bedroom at certain times, cause I assume it would be kinda scary to see their dad hooked up to an IV.

 

[summer]

the autopsy report says they found hidden iv equipment on june 29. NO drugs were found in the bag and long tube.


from the autopsy report:

If a 2nd bag (or even just the bottle) was used with a 2nd long tube then it would make sense that they only found Propofol in the short tubing and not in the long one. And that way Alberto's testimony would make sense. That they removed the one containing Propofol but left the saline one hanging.

was it propofol vial or IV bag? Propofol is not given like that. You don't give propofol by injecting it with other liquids into an IV bag. What's going on. If that's true, then they can say MJ could have done it.

He said he removed a BAG or a VIAL ? damn

Actually some anesthesiologists give Propofol mixed with saline water....However, so far I've only seen it mixed like that when given as a bolus. And during surgery lasting for longer periods of time you give Propofol with a pump, even though even then a bolus if still often needed every now and then. So I can only speculate and guess Murray could have either mixed Propofol in a bag with saline water thinking he is giving "just a little" of it....or he gave Propofol as a drip thinking he can maintain the sedation that way, not knowing that you CAN NOT control the dose if you do not use a pump. Which would also explain what happened. If I speculate I could guess that Murray gave MJ a bolus, then hooked him up to a Propofol drip...then left the room...and MJ got way too much Propofol way too fast while Murray was away. But I'm only speculating.

Propofol is given thru a a bolus injection first to knock a person out then it is dripped contusions to keep a person to out

You always give a bolus first, true. But you don't always use a drip. Instead, you just give a new bolus when needed.

.. & then he had to be told by the 911 operator that MJ should not recieve CPR on the bed..

:mello:

It has always bothered me that the 911 person didn't seem bothered that a DOCTOR was giving CPR on a bed...and didn't ask more questions on the phone....

that what it seems unless he meant that 1000ml empty propofol vial. But if he asked him to leave it there ( the bag with clear substance) why was it found later hidden with everything else?

There are no 1000ml Propofol vials excisting anywhere on the planet....

i thought alvarez was on the tape..
but what i dont understand alvarez did call 911 right but also how many minutes later? why isnt he also being charged why did he helped murray clean some up?

and is it possible that the autopsy report is for that time and the bag with the wite subtence is found or later or was not edit to the report?

Why would anyone want to charge Alberto? He is not medically trained, there was a DOCTOR there who was obviously approved by MJ to be there, so he'd do what a doctor would tell him to do.

Unbelievable! :bugeyed

What's even more unbelievable, is that Murray had given MJ Propofol and was doing mouth to mouth instead of having intubation gear at hand and INTUBATING Michael right away!!! That right there shows how reckless he was!

as far as I can understand bodyguards weren't allowed in the house and Prince let them in.

What I don't understand is why the BODYGUARDS would have to ask for a permission to get into the HOUSE...and have to be CALLED to get in the house....when the chef (and who is new too, let me remind you) and the nanny, etc. are allowed inside? :scratch:Makes no sense to me.

So Alvarez touched IV? Great! This is why Chernoff yesterday was asking bodyguards "strange" questions.

Well, that won't help the defence one bit since there are witnesess who can prove that he was not even in the house before Murray came running down the stairs.

That's EXACTLY the point. With an I.V. in the leg, Michael would have fallen back (instantly unconscious), or off the bed entirely. Self-injecting into tubing that goes into the arm could be done from a prone position.

Strange, though, how this recent testimony conflicts with the autopsy report? I assume the coroner will testify? (rhetorical question. Carry on.)

Let's not forget the person who posted about the two i.v's said the connection was bad so it may not be accurate. And we know from the coroner's report that it's not.

If MJ had truly done this to himself then Murrays reaction would have been totally different imo. Still doesn't explain how he could attempt to administer propofol with no monitoring equipment and also leave the room.

GOOD POINT! That's my thoughts exactly!! If Murray HIMSELF had nothing to do with what happened, he would not be saying "he had a bad reaction, he had a bad reaction"!!! He would be saying "I don't know what happened, I only left to go to the bathroom and when I came back he wasn't breathing!! I don't know what happened!!". THAT would make sense. Him saying MJ had a "bad reaction" implies he KNEW very well what happened and that he himself had something to do with it!!

Did they put an IV line to MJ at UCLA?

Well the coroner's report said there were multiple puncture wounds, which most likely were from the atempts to save MJ at UCLA. And MJ not being responsive...I can only imagine what trying to get an i.v. would be like...Hopeless.

Him not telling the cops at first was always going to be an issue I like to know why he did not do it myself but later on he did have an interview with them. And part about maybe selling his story is no big deal IMO considering he has not done it yet

Well I can only speculate, but maybe he most likely was still in shock and trying to process everything that had happened, and maybe he didn't think of collecting the bottls as something that significant at first...or maybe he didn't even REMEMBER that at first. Can happen. And then later when he had time to think he was like "WAIT A MINUTE....now I see WHY Murray asked me to do that!!", so he told about that.

The poster who posted about the neck IV already said he was unsure if that was what was being said:

2 IV's were in Michael, one in his arm and one in his neck with propofol. (Don't take that as gospel because the line was very muffled when she talked about this part...)

Yes, thanks! Let's not jump into conclusions!

in the autopsy report it did say he had a needle mark on his neck

Probably from UCLA when they tried to revive him.

As I said, he did a poor job because drugs, in Murray's name, were still all over the floor. He also didn't hide the injection, but the IV that had no drugs in it. Don't you think that is kind of strange?

Him claiming that he wants to sells his story doesn't help. Since we all know tabs pay more the juicer the story is. Like having both the kids upstairs and hiding evidences that was still in plain sight.

Like I said, if Paris was really upstairs when these events happen, why didn't the family put her in the AEG lawsuit like Prince?

Well when you are in panic mode, you aren't necessarily that "thorough"...

"he was wearing a condom catheter. thats been documented bag was prob emptied into the bottle

Why was he wering one? i mean why help with that? he was sleeping *so to say* why catheter him?

If he was to be sedated for a long time, it would make sense to have him wear one. Just so he won't wet his bed/clothes.

im sorry sophielo but thats not true

i had propofol and had no catheter... it depends *i ask a doctor* how deep you have to go under.. with surgery big yes but a sleep like michael or i had not

Not always even during surgery. Depending how long it takes. We've had kids and teenagers in the OR for 2-3 hours without a catheter and no one wet themselves. The little ones have a diaper on so there is no need for a catheter with the younger ones either. If it lasts for longer then you get a catheter.

I've had multiple surgeries but have never been cathetered?

EDIT: Probably because I've never been put up for more than 3 hours at a time maybe?

Exactly. :yes:

Yet another confusion.
As I recall...it was said that Michael was AWAKE all night ( that night ) and that he was anxious because he could not fall asleep. Why would he have a catheter than ?!
This only makes sense if he was heavily under and could not move.

I can not believe all this...I will go nuts.

Good point.

"This is the first time I've given mouth to mouth but I have to do it because he's my friend."


What???????????????????????????? That was 1 many minutes later and 2 you are not talking when you are cpr doing you act not talk...

and 3 what about the oxyballoon found? and 4 if murray give mouth to mouth wrong there would not be going air to the longs.. you need to do a chinlift for the air the flow in the longs

Yeah, where was the ambu bag that was found? Then again, I can remember that next to it was a leaflet with the instructions how to use it....so maybe Murray didn't know how it works and had to try to do mouth to mouth. But again....why he'd do mouth to mouth when he HAD given MJ Propofol is beyond me and absolutely amazing and disgusting!!! When you give someone Propofol...NO MATTER WHAT AMOUNT....the STANDARD OF CARE requires you to have INTUBATION GEAR ready!!! And if you do NOT have that and if you do NOT know how to intubate...you SHOULD NOT BE GIVING ANYONE PROPOFOL!!!!!! So that alone shows that Murray was reckless. If MJ stopped breathing NO MATTER FOR WHAT REASON....Murray should have been able to intubate MJ like he would have never done anything else in his life!!! THAT is what the standard of care REQUIRES when giving someone Propofol...and AGAIN...NO MATTER WHAT AMOUNT. So I'd be really interested in hearing his explanation and his "plan" to rescue MJ in case he stopped breathing (like he DID!!) when he gave MJ Propofol.

*SARCASM ALERT....NOT FROM THE COURTROOM....(but very well COULD be...which is the SAD part!)*

Question: "Dr. Murray...were you aware that Propofol can make a person STOP BREATHING???!!"

Answer: "Yes...."

Q: So what were you planning to do if Mr. Jackson stopped breathing after receiving Propofol?"

A: "Uhm....eeeerr....uuuuuhhhmmmm......give mouth to mouth.....?"

Q: "And what does the standard of care require you to have ready when giving someone Propofol, Dr. Murray?"

A: "Uhm.....eeeeerrr.....eeeerrrr.....uhm......hmmmm....eeeeerrr.....a phone?".

Q: No.:doh: Intubation gear, monitor, certain emergency drugs, clinical-like setting....and ANESTHESIOLOGIST or someone who is equally trained to give Propofol......And did you have any of those....Dr. Murray?

A:................................................No.

Q: "I rest my case, your Honor!" -_-

I don't understand, why security guard listened Murray and began grabbing medicine bottles, bags from an IV, while your boss is lifeless on a bed... I wouldn't touch there anything..

It's easy for us to say when we weren't in that situation. Let's not forget that.

Hanging from railings whilst a patient was in distress, not going how to do CPR, instructing people to hide evidence. How on earth can this get any worse?

I'm scared to even imagine....It's just so heartbreaking...all of it.

True, but I've known several in my family who had to make life and death decisions on the fly and I know that people don't normally think straight when they are in a panic.

For example, my auntie couldn't even dial 911 when my uncle had his heart attack. Nonetheless, she knew to call for help before anything else. Same thing with my grandfather, my grandmother called my mom and she had to call 911, but my grandmother still knew to call for help. Which is what I am basing my opinion on.

Which is why, I can't understand someone's first response to someone in distress is to pick up drugs and not run to the nearest phone.

Well, the difference here is that there already was a DOCTOR THERE. And one who is a CARDIOLOGIST as well. So in ALL HONESTY.....if any of us were put in the same situation....when you are just THROWN into a situation like that...and you KNOW there is a doctor, who is a HEART SPECIALIST, there....I'd say pretty much all of us would listen to the doctor and think the doctor has it under control or at least know what he's doing. And those who say "no way"....well...easy for us to say when not in that situation. And also...I can say this as a nurse....there are situations at the hospital too in which I'd do things differently....but the doctor has the say, especially if it's one of the head doctors (with the younger ones not so much....if I don't agree, I won't do what they ask me to do until I've checked with the head doctor first)....so what I think is irrelevant. The doctor's in charge and I gotta do what they tell me to do. So who ever blames Alberto....easy for them to say. It's very easy to say what you would have done when you have months to analyze the situation. It's completely different when you are thrown into the situation and have no time to really think but just react according to your instincts (or just do what someone tells you if you're panicking or in shock yourself).

Cause, you know, the hospital would not have the drugs necessary! It's like packing to go to the beach and taking your own sand!

Well, it is helpful to the doctors at the hospital to know what drugs the patient got and how much. Helps them get a picture of what happened, what might be wrong with the patient...and especially if it was an overdose case...it helps them give the patient the right treatment faster than waiting for lab results and trying to GUESS what might be wrong.

when you go to a doctor in US they always tell you to bring your medications or a list of it.I think it's probable that Alvarez might have thought they'll go the hospital and show the doctors the medicines so that they can do the proper treatment.

Exactly. The doctors need to know what the patient got or what drugs the patient is taking regulary...First, to know what kind of EXCISTING problems they may have and what treatment they are already getting...and also since you shouldn't give certain drugs together and because some drugs can lessen or intensify other drugs.

no thats not true the hospital need to see the meds and want you to take them with you.. not to use but to see them people can mixupe names and mgs so..

That's right. A lot of times when we get new patients admitted and we ask the parents what meds the child is taking, if any, they often don't know the name or at least not correctly....or if they do...they often don't know what kind of dosage the child is getting. They go "Oh he takes one pill in the morning and one in the evening". But often don't know how many milligrams one pill has. So we always ask them to bring the meds with them and show us so we know what meds exactly they have been giving and how much.

that not the issue. if u every OD on something or your kid drinks something bad like i dunno meths. if u look on the bottles it always says take this to you to the drs. thats what alberto was saying. he thought he was colelcting the drugs so at the hosptial they knew exactly what mj had taken

Exactly. :yes:

I'm only going by what I've worked with. When someone is sedated more than "lightly" for more that a short period of time, quite frequently they become incontinent of urine if the bladder fills and they do not "wake up" with the sensation/urgency to urinate. Perhaps this is something Michael even requested because he would be too sedated or he did not want to take the effort to get up or use a urinal and disturb his ability to return to "sleep". Actually out of all the iffy/strange things in this case, having a condom catheter ranks really low in significance to me considering the whole scenario of using Propofol plus all the other meds.

Same here. :yes:

Perhaps they didn't use a regular cathether because that is painful (especially for a man), while a condom cathether isn't.

I don't understand all the focus on the catheter. Michael wasn't having a normal sleep when you automatically get up and go to the bathroom if you have to pee. He was sedated! He wasn't gonna wake up if he had to pee! Add this to his prostate problem and to me that's enough to explain the cathether.

They didn't use a regular catheter because it would make NO SENSE to use one. Then again...knowing it's Dr. Murray we are talking about...not much makes sense anyways....

maybe Murray had the vial of propofol inside a bag..so it would not get contaminated??? Maybe Alverez thought the bag was hooked to somthing...but it wan't...it was just used as storage for the vial??

Well that would not really make any sense. But then again...look at my comment above. :lol:

hehe yes thats true but i believe every thing is importent for the case

but would he liked to urinated in his sleep? is that even possible? i cant imagine.. and when he woke up id rather go to a bathroom than pee in a condom *im woman* in my bed and go asleep again

Well, when you get drugs to make you sleep (and we're not talking about regular sleeping pills here), it's not a question of WANTING to pee while sleeping... or not. You don't really have control over it anymore. That's why the condom catheter makes sense.

I have just seen a report on skynews, and they said the same thing "a vial, with a milky residue in it, inside an IV bag"

Murray was trying to keep the floor clean avoiding a leak from the vial ???

Makes no sense to me and I've never seen a vial inside a bag for any kinds of reasons.....But hey...stranger things have happened. I've never seen/heard of any doctor giving a patient Propofol in a HOME either.....Never seen anyone give Propofol without monitoring the patient....So....like I said. "Stranger" things have happened.....:mello:

I think this also explains why Alvarez didn't find it suspicious and mentioned it in the first interviews. After the details emerged such as about homicide, propofol and what Murray told investigators, he might have realized what actually happened in the bedroom and what was Murray's purpose was.

That's what I think too. He probably didn't think it was significant....OR... didn't even think about it at all right after because he was still trying to process ALL of that happened and trying to UNDERSTAND what had just happened.

the panic.. the shock... but the Bodyguard ( and Doctor ) should be prepared, each day emotionally R-e-a-d-y to face the situation like this!The first thought would be urgently to call to hospital if the present doctor there ( murray ) can't help, while your boss on a bed and not breathing.

Easy for us to say. Let's not forget Alberto is not medically trained and there was a DOCTOR there. It is not right to accuse Alberto of not being able to assess in what kind of condition MJ was in. He is not a doctor...besides there was a doctor there...it's the doctor's responsibility to know when to call help...not the bodyguard's.

Sky News Correspondent : Murray's lawyer testing Alvarez, asking him to confirm whether it was dark in MJ's room - suggesting his observations may be inaccurate

That's what I love about Ed Chernoff...he is so DUMB!!! :lol: :lol: Talking about shooting in your OWN foot!!!! :doh: :lol: :lol: So what if Alberto said "Yeah...it was pretty dark." Then the prosecution will go "So not only did Murray NOT monitor MJ...did not have the equipment there...not only left MJ alone....but it was dark also, so that would make observing his chest for breathing as well as his skin color and tone for possible cyanosis difficult as well"....*case closed* :doh::doh::doh: :lol: :lol: :lol: Besides, hadn't it been established months ago that MJ liked sleeping with lights on...with cartoons on...and wasn't part of Murray's defence that he didn't leave the room to make calls because MJ liked the "commotion" in the room...as in...lights on...noise...? So now all of the sudden he wanted lights out. But wouldn't that mean then too that Murray would have to go outside to make calls? Why woudl MJ then want lights out to be able to sleep, but would not mind listening to Murray babble to his baby mama, etc. for an hour right next to him while he was TRYING to sleep? DUMBASS!!!:doh:

From what I can see here is the defense grasping at straws. By asking if it was dark in the room they can claim that the bodyguards would not have seen what was going on. But at that time of the day even with the curtains closed the room wouldn't have been dark. Darkened yes if the curtains were closed but not dark.

Yup. Like I've been saying from the beginning....no matter what way you twist it...Murray is always to blame. Say it's dark so Alberto was not able to see? Well...not like THAT would really help Murray....would show he was even MORE reckless since MJ was not monitored. How do you monitor someone with EYES ONLY if it's DARK? :doh::doh::doh: But....let them continue....let Chernoff dig the hole for Murray all on his own. :lol:

 

[Ingelief]

why is everyone so heated up? why cant we all say what we want to see.. sometimes i feel like im in communistic country where only some things are alot to say..

maybe its a europe usa thing but i really dont see why we can not discuss something today was said in a testimony thats why this thread is for right? we all react to what is so kind to be updated by some like ivy.. and cream weight etc was also mentiond in the courtroom... so sure people have feelings when they read that

 

[StaceyMJ]

If this isn't "Murder 2," then I really can't imagine what IS?

From FindLaw (site for legal questions)

@font-face { font-family: "Times"; }@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }h1 { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 24pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-weight: bold; }a:link, span.MsoHyperlink { color: blue; text-decoration: underline; }a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { color: purple; text-decoration: underline; }p { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }span.Heading1Char { font-family: Times; font-weight: bold; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; } http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_second_degree.html


Murder: Second degree

​

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

It's absolutely astounding isn't it...I just have no idea about this at all.

 

[ForeverKOP]

There are articles saying that Alvarez will "sell his story to the media later".....
WHAT??? Is he here for the $$$$ too? I don't get this!

 

[Soundmind]

There are no 1000ml Propofol vials excisting anywhere on the planet....

sorry meant 100ml= 1000mg . summer we already 'fixed' that issue. He had it there but it was not connected to MJ

There are articles saying that Alvarez will "sell his story to the media later".....
WHAT??? Is he here for the $$$$ too? I don't get this

The media never gets anything right. When he conducted an interview with police officers , they brought up the possibility that he might benefit somehow later from telling that story and he agreed.

A tv might at somepoint offer him money to participate in a documentary or something, he did not lie , he said maybe. So far Alvarez did not sell anything

 

[twinklEE]

It's absolutely astounding isn't it...I just have no idea about this at all.

It's mind boggling and doesn't add up at all.

 

[Ingelief]

@summer

when i was under propofol it wasnt that long so i was not intubated

 

[elusive moonwalker]

hiya summer. can u explain the below im being really thick here but i dont get what u are saying. prob casue ove been sat infront of this screen for 7 hrs

the autopsy report says they found hidden iv equipment on june 29. NO drugs were found in the bag and long tube.


from the autopsy report:
If a 2nd bag (or even just the bottle) was used with a 2nd long tube then it would make sense that they only found Propofol in the short tubing and not in the long one. And that way Alberto's testimony would make sense. That they removed the one containing Propofol but left the saline one hanging.

 

[Asedora]

why is everyone so heated up? why cant we all say what we want to see.. sometimes i feel like im in communistic country where only some things are alot to say..

maybe its a europe usa thing but i really dont see why we can not discuss something today was said in a testimony thats why this thread is for right? we all react to what is so kind to be updated by some like ivy.. and cream weight etc was also mentiond in the courtroom... so sure people have feelings when they read that

In communist counties where I was born we had more freedom of speech than I see here at the moment.

 

[mthalen]

why is everyone so heated up? why cant we all say what we want to see.. sometimes i feel like im in communistic country where only some things are alot to say..

maybe its a europe usa thing but i really dont see why we can not discuss something today was said in a testimony thats why this thread is for right? we all react to what is so kind to be updated by some like ivy.. and cream weight etc was also mentiond in the courtroom... so sure people have feelings when they read that

Just my humble opinion.

I agree.
It would be nice if people waited 10 seconds and think to themselves that everyone on this board is an MJ fan, before going on a rant, because they feel someone is out to make MJ look bad, when all the person's really doing is reacting to something that was said in court. The title of the thread says: discussion. But sometimes it's not much of a discussion at all...
Some people think it's interesting to talk about his weight, when a EMT mentions in court today that MJ looked frail and like in a hospice, I say let them and ignore if you don't feel like talking about that subject.
With all the bickering these subjects only get drawn out, when otherwise it would've been no more than 1-3 posts....

Just my humble opinion.

 

[StaceyMJ]

In communist counties where I was born we had more freedom of speech than I see here at the moment.

Don't be so dramatic! Just stop, now.

 

[CherubimII]

In summary, what we are witnessing here is the attempt to get away with the murder of Michael Jackson by all individuals involved.

To be, or not to be– that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And, by opposing, end them. To die, to sleep
No more – and by a sleep to say we end
The heartache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to – 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep
To sleep, perchance to dream. Ay, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,

Hamlet Act Act 3, Scene 1 by William Shakespeare

 

[Ingelief]

he i just remembered something... alvaraz told his story did what murray told him called 911... where was he when they were inside? because he know murray gave michael alot of meds because he had them in his hands just earlyer so when the paramedic asked murray did he use meds and he said only lorazapam alvaraz could have said something...

so that made me thing he was not upstairs anymore?

 

[MJStorm]

If this isn't "Murder 2," then I really can't imagine what IS?

From FindLaw (site for legal questions)

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Murder: Second degree

​

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

And why should he not being charged with second-degree murder???That man is a murderer. Murderer, and stupid.

 

[StaceyMJ]

Just my humble opinion.

I agree.
It would be nice if people waited 10 seconds and think to themselves that everyone on this board is an MJ fan, before going on a rant, because they feel someone is out to make MJ look bad, when all the person's really doing is reacting to something that was said in court. The title of the thread says: discussion. But sometimes it's not much of a discussion at all...
Some people think it's interesting to talk about his weight, when a EMT mentions in court today that MJ looked frail and like in a hospice, I say let them and ignore if you don't feel like talking about that subject.
With all the bickering these subjects only get drawn out, when otherwise it would've been no more than 1-3 posts....

Just my humble opinion.

You have completely misunderstood. There are plenty of threads to discuss Michael's weight and our own perceived opinions of it. THIS thread is for discussing factual elements, and what is going on in the courtroom. Does that makes sense?

It is absolutely imperative that this thread does not get derailed.