Preliminary Hearing 5/1/11 Day two. Discussion thread

  • Thread starter elusive moonwalker
  • Start date
when you go to a doctor in US they always tell you to bring your medications or a list of it.I think it's probable that Alvarez might have thought they'll go the hospital and show the doctors the medicines so that they can do the proper treatment.


That is true. When my granddad goes to the hospital we have to bring all his medication and show it to the doctor. It is much easier than trying to remember all the names of the medication, some that I can't pronounce to save my life.

My pet peeve is that the bodyguard did this before he even called for help.
 
IMO...they couldnt hook Michael up to a foley every ingle night....when a foley is inserted it is ment to be there for a few days....if they keep taking it out and putting it in daily MJ ran the risk of getting a bladder infection....maybe in this situation a condom catheter was the less invasive..of the two it can be put on and taken off.

true and not true its not always ment to be there for days.. but true about the bladder infection..

but he cant urinate well under right by himself so why condom catheter? like ginvid says ...

what are we missing?
 
IMO...they couldnt hook Michael up to a foley every ingle night....when a foley is inserted it is ment to be there for a few days....if they keep taking it out and putting it in daily MJ ran the risk of getting a bladder infection....maybe in this situation a condom catheter was the less invasive..of the two it can be put on and taken off.

Thanks xthunderx,

I also just found online that condom cathers can be used for incontinence (the inability to control one's bladder) as well. So I think it was for what I was told from the beginning, he was to be under for a long period of time and would not have bladder control so the catheter would catch the urine.

I think I will stick to this unless more info is revealed. It sounds the most plausible.

Thanks again! (I just like to be clear or I get lost too easily.)
 
Oh ok, since we have 'socialised health care' in Barbados, we would not have to.
that not the issue. if u every OD on something or your kid drinks something bad like i dunno meths. if u look on the bottles it always says take this to you to the drs. thats what alberto was saying. he thought he was colelcting the drugs so at the hosptial they knew exactly what mj had taken
 
I just spoke to my sister and she said she doesn't know why they would use a condom catheter as opposed to a regular catheter as the regular catheter would constantly expend the urine. She said catheters can be used for sedation for long periods of time, but it isn't absolutely necessary.

I was also looking online. I don't know who this person is, it's from Yahoo Answers, but maybe someone here can help. This is what was said:


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070303014012AAgbuvs

So people what are we missing? If a condom catherters requires a patient to urinate as usual, then why would that one be used if MJ was supposed to be asleep?

I don't mean to get stuck on this, I am just very curious now. I will keep looking.

I'm only going by what I've worked with. When someone is sedated more than "lightly" for more that a short period of time, quite frequently they become incontinent of urine if the bladder fills and they do not "wake up" with the sensation/urgency to urinate. Perhaps this is something Michael even requested because he would be too sedated or he did not want to take the effort to get up or use a urinal and disturb his ability to return to "sleep". Actually out of all the iffy/strange things in this case, having a condom catheter ranks really low in significance to me considering the whole scenario of using Propofol plus all the other meds.
 
IMO...they couldnt hook Michael up to a foley every ingle night....when a foley is inserted it is ment to be there for a few days....if they keep taking it out and putting it in daily MJ ran the risk of getting a bladder infection....maybe in this situation a condom catheter was the less invasive..of the two it can be put on and taken off.

i agree... plus the foley sounds like that would hurt if youre not sedated
 
I just spoke to my sister and she said she doesn't know why they would use a condom catheter as opposed to a regular catheter as the regular catheter would constantly expend the urine. She said catheters can be used for sedation for long periods of time, but it isn't absolutely necessary.

I was also looking online. I don't know who this person is, it's from Yahoo Answers, but maybe someone here can help. This is what was said:


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070303014012AAgbuvs

So people what are we missing? If a condom catherters requires a patient to urinate as usual, then why would that one be used if MJ was supposed to be asleep?

I don't mean to get stuck on this, I am just very curious now. I will keep looking.


Perhaps they didn't use a regular cathether because that is painful (especially for a man), while a condom cathether isn't.

I don't understand all the focus on the catheter. Michael wasn't having a normal sleep when you automatically get up and go to the bathroom if you have to pee. He was sedated! He wasn't gonna wake up if he had to pee! Add this to his prostate problem and to me that's enough to explain the cathether.
 
is that normal. im trying to picture it and a vial inside and iv bag? why?
maybe Murray had the vial of propofol inside a bag..so it would not get contaminated??? Maybe Alverez thought the bag was hooked to somthing...but it wan't...it was just used as storage for the vial??
 
is that normal. im trying to picture it and a vial inside and iv bag? why?

because the vial had been used , and so someone, well Murray put it into an IV bag before throwing it away ????

I don't know, I'm just trying to guess. ??
 
Thanks xthunderx,

I also just found online that condom cathers can be used for incontinence (the inability to control one's bladder) as well. So I think it was for what I was told from the beginning, he was to be under for a long period of time and would not have bladder control so the catheter would catch the urine.

I think I will stick to this unless more info is revealed. It sounds the most plausible.

Thanks again! (I just like to be clear or I get lost too easily.)
your welcome....I do have nurses aid backround so I do know about something that have to do with things of this nature. NA sometimes have to do alot of thing that nurses are suppose to do.
 
I'm only going by what I've worked with. When someone is sedated more than "lightly" for more that a short period of time, quite frequently they become incontinent of urine if the bladder fills and they do not "wake up" with the sensation/urgency to urinate. Perhaps this is something Michael even requested because he would be too sedated or he did not want to take the effort to get up or use a urinal and disturb his ability to return to "sleep". Actually out of all the iffy/strange things in this case, having a condom catheter ranks really low in significance to me considering the whole scenario of using Propofol plus all the other meds.

hehe yes thats true but i believe every thing is importent for the case

but would he liked to urinated in his sleep? is that even possible? i cant imagine.. and when he woke up id rather go to a bathroom than pee in a condom *im woman* in my bed and go asleep again
 
No, I've never seen such thing, what for? lol
thats what ithought the iv bag holds the contents and thats it. nothing makes sense about this. if we dont get the transcripts for the trial this is going to be a nightmare
 
But that's quite normal for a 50 year old male though isn't it?

Yeh, it is..and my dad has the same.

a larger prostate would slow the flow of urine down though.

The enlargement of the prostate gland stretches and distorts the urethra and so obstructs the urine flow. Symptoms include:

  • a weak or interrupted urinary stream. Several attempts to empty the bladder may be necessary.
  • difficulty starting the urine flow, even when the bladder feels full.
  • a feeling the bladder is not completely empty.
  • a need to urinate often during the day and during the night. Increased need to urinate in the night is usually a very early symptom.
  • a need to urinate right away. Some men may experience involuntary discharge of urine.
  • dribbling of urine after urination.
  • burning sensation or pain during urination.

MJ was taking Flomax...

What is Flomax?

Flomax (tamsulosin) belongs to a group of drugs called alpha-adrenergic blockers. Flomax relaxes the muscles in the prostate and bladder neck, making it easier to urinate.
Flomax is used to improve urination in men with benign prostatic hyperplasia (enlarged prostate).
 
hehe yes thats true but i believe every thing is importent for the case

but would he liked to urinated in his sleep? is that even possible? i cant imagine.. and when he woke up id rather go to a bathroom than pee in a condom *im woman* in my bed and go asleep again

But Michael wasn't having a normal sleep! He wasn't gonna wake up and go to the bathroom if he had to pee!
 
maybe Murray had the vial of propofol inside a bag..so it would not get contaminated??? Maybe Alverez thought the bag was hooked to somthing...but it wan't...it was just used as storage for the vial??

plausible theory. So calm down, as long as they did not find the vial of propofol hooked to a long tubing with propofol in that long tubing the prosecution's case should be safe.
 
This is very upsetting to hear these details. I can't believe this is an actual doctor. He didn't care about Michael at all. I don't know how much worse this can get.
 
I have just seen a report on skynews, and they said the same thing "a vial, with a milky residue in it, inside an IV bag"

Murray was trying to keep the floor clean avoiding a leak from the vial ???
 
I don't understand all the focus on the catheter. Michael wasn't having a normal sleep when you automatically get up and go to the bathroom if you have to pee. He was sedated! He wasn't gonna wake up if he had to pee! Add this to his prostate problem and to me that's enough to explain the cathether.

yehh .
 
A respect77,

Can you tone it down just a bit please?
Thank you.

hehe yes thats true but i believe every thing is importent for the case

but would he liked to urinated in his sleep? is that even possible? i cant imagine.. and when he woke up id rather go to a bathroom than pee in a condom *im woman* in my bed and go asleep again

Ingelief, people use the bathroom in their sleep all of the time. (look at children who wet the bed or people who have dreams of being on the toilet. And since Mj was not planned to be able to wake up, it would be preferrable to go in a catheter than to urinate all over the bed and himself. Wouldn't you agree?

If you have more questions about this, so that the thread can move on, PM me and we can try to get you some answers.
 
<TABLE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5px" cellSpacing=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=sqtdq colSpan=2>Murderers will try to recall the sequence of events, they will remember exactly what they did just before and just after. But they can never remember the actual moment of killing. This is why [they] will always leave a clue.</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>
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Peter Ackroyd quotes
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when you go to a doctor in US they always tell you to bring your medications or a list of it.I think it's probable that Alvarez might have thought they'll go the hospital and show the doctors the medicines so that they can do the proper treatment.

no thats not true the hospital need to see the meds and want you to take them with you.. not to use but to see them people can mixupe names and mgs so..

That is true. When my granddad goes to the hospital we have to bring all his medication and show it to the doctor. It is much easier than trying to remember all the names of the medication, some that I can't pronounce to save my life.

My pet peeve is that the bodyguard did this before he even called for help.

that not the issue. if u every OD on something or your kid drinks something bad like i dunno meths. if u look on the bottles it always says take this to you to the drs. thats what alberto was saying. he thought he was colelcting the drugs so at the hosptial they knew exactly what mj had taken

I think this also explains why Alvarez didn't find it suspicious and mentioned it in the first interviews. After the details emerged such as about homicide, propofol and what Murray told investigators, he might have realized what actually happened in the bedroom and what was Murray's purpose was.
 
I was working today during the 'hearing' time so I only got to hear bits & pieces of info. So "Thanks" to those who has posted so much in this thread.

:wub:
souldreamer7
 
Exactly! They should call 911 immidiately, not to wait 20 freaking minutes!. This is all they had to do. Now it is easy to say that they were cleaning up as Murray said if their fingerprits were found on these bottels. I do not believe these bodyguards either.
the panic.. the shock... but the Bodyguard ( and Doctor ) should be prepared, each day emotionally R-e-a-d-y to face the situation like this!The first thought would be urgently to call to hospital if the present doctor there ( murray ) can't help, while your boss on a bed and not breathing.
 
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Sky News Correspondent : Murray's lawyer testing Alvarez, asking him to confirm whether it was dark in MJ's room - suggesting his observations may be inaccurate
 
dark in the room? strange to ask that... you kind of think murray would lighted so he could see what he was doing
 
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