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Preliminary Hearing 5/1/11 Day two. Discussion thread

  • Thread starter elusive moonwalker
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jemini515 said:
Going back a few pages, some were surprised that an EMT didn't immediately recognize the victim as Michael Jackson. But as I visualize this horrific scene, I'm not sure how recognizable he was: usual hairstyle hidden, possibly no makeup, pajamas askew, and motionlessly dead/dying.... plus the EMTs' focus on helping the patient, any patient, they may not be thinking about identification right away.

Has anyone answered yet: at what point did the EMTs learn it was Michael Jackson? When did someone confirm this to them?
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I heard back then they heard it from the news.
 
I want to thank everyone for the updates and discussion, I couldn't stay up till the end of the hearing and these threads are very helpful to catch up now.
 
Ingelief said:
he people i could not sleep its night here

but ive got questions i hope you all will look at

1. where was alvaraz when the paramedics came and murray told him the lie about the meds?

2. why did the paramedics tryed to revive him a while at home and not at the hospital? did they tube him at home?

3. Is there going to be a official transcript?
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1. One can assume he was still at the scene, and didn't tell the authorities out of shock.

2. They attempted to revive him at home instead of taking him to a hospital, because Murray wouldn't allow them to pronounce him dead at the scene. Once someone is pronounced dead at the place they were found, it becomes scene for investigation, immediately. Murray knew this, and being a doctor, he has higher power over EMT's, so if he says he still feels a pulse and orders them to continue resuscitation efforts, then they have to abide by him until all efforts fail and they finally realize something else has to be done.

3. I hope so.
 
Memefan said:
MJ would be horrified that we are discussing his penis, his lacefront, condom catheter, pee pad..His dignity....



I hope it backfires. You shouldn't vilify the dead



o_O



How likely do you think it is for the judge to up the charges?
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MJ would be horrified that his mother, his children, his friends and his fans would have to discuss his DEATH. Period.

Asedora said:
Yes, I think it freaking irrelevant because it is not important. If he respected Michael he should avoid such details becuase it is alredy in coroner report and it is not new. We alredy know medical details. Alberto is son of a bitch. If he wants to save his own ass talking crap, it is not going to happen.
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Well. The cause of death and everything that happened is in the coroner's report and in the police reports too. So why not just read and quote those again in court without calling witnesses? Same thing. :doh:

Alberto was testifying. He was SUPPOSED to tell EXACTLY what he saw. That's what he was there for. And any witness should leave it to the lawyers and the jury to decide which details are relevant and significant and which are not. If you start leaving things out because YOU think it's irrelevant, you may end up leaving out something important that could have helped the case. Just saying. Alberto did fine. And to call him a S.O.B. without knowing him and just because he was doing what he was supposed to do....that's really mean. :mello:
 
Another question I'd be curious to know (since we are asking questions) is:

Besides Murray and nurse Cherilyn Lee (whom I don't trust), is there anyone who knew or suspected Michael was using propofol/diprivan for any reason? Did he confide this to anyone at all? Did any maid ever see vials? I am just looking for proof that he was actually on this "regimen" as Murray said, rather than just one poison dose on June 25.

If this is veering too much into conspiracy pls delete and I apologize.

As I type this, maybe we should have a question thread so we don't clutter the daily analysis?
 
jemini515 said:
Another question I'd be curious to know (since we are asking questions) is:

Besides Murray and nurse Cherilyn Lee (whom I don't trust), is there anyone who knew or suspected Michael was using propofol/diprivan for any reason? Did he confide this to anyone at all? Did any maid ever see vials? I am just looking for proof that he was actually on this "regimen" as Murray said, rather than just one poison dose on June 25.

If this is veering too much into conspiracy pls delete and I apologize.
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Yeah, you could build a conspiracy around that, but I've been asking myself that as well. It would just be interesting to know, because SOMEONE must have known or at least seen something during those weeks? Even if they didn't know what drug exactly he was giving him, like you said, seeing the vials maybe, etc. Would be interesting for all kinds of reasons, one being maybe he was told by Murray not to tell anyone, because Murray knew he could get in trouble for it. Or if someone knew (as in not just seeing vials without knowing what they are, but was told about it or saw them and for whatever reason knew what they are), did they try to do something about it?
 
I can't see this anywhere and haven't got time to search so can anyone tell me if the paramedic said where MJ was when they arrived at the bedroom (ie. was he on the bed or on the floor)?
 
jemini515 said:
As I type this, maybe we should have a question thread so we don't clutter the daily analysis?
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Even though there is a 'recap -no discussion thread' - I think this maybe a good ideal as things go further. :agree:
Also, maybe in the future t help avoid a slowed down server or crash with so many people in one thread at same time..??
 
jemini515 said:
Going back a few pages, some were surprised that an EMT didn't immediately recognize the victim as Michael Jackson. But as I visualize this horrific scene, I'm not sure how recognizable he was: usual hairstyle hidden, possibly no makeup, pajamas askew, and motionlessly dead/dying.... plus the EMTs' focus on helping the patient, any patient, they may not be thinking about identification right away.

Has anyone answered yet: at what point did the EMTs learn it was Michael Jackson? When did someone confirm this to them?
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they probably found out in the house before they left. im sure the scene outside told them it was someone important. or maybe after they eventually recognized him

Ingelief said:
he people i could not sleep its night here

but ive got questions i hope you all will look at

1. where was alvaraz when the paramedics came and murray told him the lie about the meds?

2. why did the paramedics tryed to revive him a while at home and not at the hospital? did they tube him at home?

3. Is there going to be a official transcript?
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1) good question... i cant say for sure
2)perimedics have to make sure the patient is in a condition for them to take them to the hospital to be revived. if they arent in a good condition then they are pronounced dead at the scene
3)there will be an official transcrip because they ALWAYS type one up for court records. will it be released to the public is the question

jemini515 said:
Another question I'd be curious to know (since we are asking questions) is:

Besides Murray and nurse Cherilyn Lee (whom I don't trust), is there anyone who knew or suspected Michael was using propofol/diprivan for any reason? Did he confide this to anyone at all? Did any maid ever see vials? I am just looking for proof that he was actually on this "regimen" as Murray said, rather than just one poison dose on June 25.

If this is veering too much into conspiracy pls delete and I apologize.

As I type this, maybe we should have a question thread so we don't clutter the daily analysis?
Click to expand...

the only people besides the ones youve mention are; the anestheiologist from the history tour(he admitted it on camera) and the doctor who said he emailed asked her about it and she emailed him back(i believe the emails were on tmz). i also dont think anybody who didnt know suspected it. i dont think anyone has ever thought of propofol being used outside of a hospital until this situation(unless you dealt with it). im sure people in his past circles knew about it if they were helping supply it. also why dont you trust the nurse??????
 
Hi everyone,

About Kai Chase : I don't understand why she was called to testify. She didn't say much, apart from confirming that Murray didn't ask her to call 911.
As another poster said, I find it weird she said that it was strange MJ and Murray didn't eat their dinner after coming back from rehearsal, it sounded unusual. You are not supposed to eat before an anesthesia, so why would it be unusual ??

About the charges : to those with a medical knowledge : is it possible that when Murray found MJ it was already too late ? I mean that Murray realised nothing could be done , so for whatever reason (panic or whatever) he started to try to cover up instead of calling for help. Meaning that the fact he delayed calling for help is shocking, but did not change anything.

Then we have the beads, showing Michael was moved while he was dying (taken to the floor, moved to another part of the bed, or the beads were moved, but not Michael), so there was someone with him at that time.
Would that be compatible ??
 
Petrarose said:
They describe it as attached, therefore, it was extensions that was attached to his head. Not a wig that you could put on and take off.
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:agree:
not to sound rude,but yeah to clairfy it was most likely a lace front and most likely MJ had his jheri curls did and the cap was to keep them in place and not 'fuzz them out' I'm just sayin' I'm surprized with so many woman here that it's not understood that when you have your hair done and go to bed you put on a cap and sometimes even sleep on a silk pillow case so your hair don't become fuzzy. by no means going off topic on purpose, just wanted to give reason as to why. sorry.

:wub:
souldreamer7
 
About the vial inside the IV bag, I don't know if it's important :

skynews and itélé (French news network) specifically said that it was hooked to something, and that Alvarez took it off that hook, or whatever it was the bag was connected to.

I télé showed Carl Douglas press conference, and that's what they translated. Carl Douglas is Alvarez' lawyer.

Skynews correspondant said it too, but specifically tweeted yesterday that it was NOT connected to MJ. So hooked to something but not connected to MJ.

Skynews correspondant also said it was near the bed headboard.
 
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wendy2004 said:
Same. I've been keeping an open mind about incompetence vs. something more sinister and I, too, am starting to think the level of negligence here is just off the charts.
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True, but then I think, if it was purposeful on his part, he would have planned it better, wouldn't have waited for a bodyguard to frantically help him clean up everything, etc.

If it's true that MJ's bedroom was generally off limits to other staff, Murray could have purposely done the deed, and cleaned up everything, and then alerted them, putting on a convincing act of concern and urgency, and none of them would have been the wiser.

bouee said:
On cross examination, Ed Chernoff got Senneff to admit ... Jackson's skeletal, frail frame, along with his black/bluish feet, were signs of a drug addict.
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Amazing...a paramedic enters the room and is suppose to instantly recognize the patient was a drug addict, but his doctor client who was administering drugs to him for weeks, had no clue. If they go this route, they'll just be hammering home Murray's negligence with his treatment.
 
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so what is going to happen today ? i heard last night that when it happened murray was hiding all the drugs one of the kids come in the room and they were on there hands and knees crying :boohoo:
 
Sources connected with the criminal case tell ... there's "compelling evidence" that MJ was in weakened health whenever he went on tour. Specifically, people who went on various tours -- including the "Bad" and "Dangerous" concerts -- say Jackson was frequently "dehydrated, medicated, and sleep-deprived."

I say.. that what musican esp. in thse days, the times in which Michael toured was more grueling than today) what musican was NOT Dehydrated - Sleep Deprived at some point??? Come on touring is serious buisness and even when your at your best it takes a toll.. That does Not mean that your totally ill and dependent on meds. Also I'm sure there's been many other musicans that has had to be legally prescribed meds. while touring for various legit medical reasons as well as Dehydrated & Sleep Deprived. Accidents happen often while touring you can get sick while touring.. different time zones..etc. so many legit reasons for all those symptoms. I just think that what is stated above is a bunch of BS!
 
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I think Murray is pretending, pretending to not know to do cpr, and playing us for fools.

His behavior was one of hiding, lying, then the "I do not know' attitude I think this is an act. This act is saving him out of being charged with First or Second degree murder.

Fans saying Murray is stupid - no, he is NOT. He knows that he will end up with almost no jail time going on. Then losing medical license - not such big deal, because he is not at the start of the career... I think the doc is in his 50s and many are choosing to retire before time, at exactly his age!

So yeah for Murray playing stupid is the ticket outta of this... for a lesser charge, for fewer months, for almost no jail etc
 
Ramona122003 said:
On a different note, if they thought Michael was dead for that long, why did the people at the hospital work on Michael for over an hour? I know part of it was to wait for his mother, but even that took awhile to happen. Then again, I have heard of people being brought back even after they had been clinically dead for 15 to 20 minutes, even when their bodies weren't kept cold.
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Yes.

And one more thing. Rigor Mortis - if Mike eyes and mouth were open, in the ambulance we saw him with his eyes closed. So they could close his eyes, that means Mike was not dead for long.
 
Tipareth said:
I think Murray is pretending, pretending to not know to do cpr, and playing us for fools.

His behavior was one of hiding, lying, then the "I do not know' attitude I think this is an act. This act is saving him out of being charged with First or Second degree murder.

Fans saying Murray is stupid - no, he is NOT. He knows that he will end up with almost no jail time going on. Then losing medical license - not such big deal, because he is not at the start of the career... I think the doc is in his 50s and many are choosing to retire before time, at exactly his age!

So yeah for Murray playing stupid is the ticket outta of this... for a lesser charge, for fewer months, for almost no jail etc
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The bolded part :agree:

watch video somewhere at the end reporter mentions that.
http://www.ktla.com/videobeta/?watchId=7c18d476-ada2-4ff2-ae06-560edb5e3e8a
 
classic said:
That is why above all the what ifs, I can't stop thinking what if he had been taken to the hospital immediately. When this is taken into consideration and if they can get one of the doctors to state that with Michael getting to them earlier with an honest portrayal of events there was even a slight chance to revive him, then I think that that alone should create either a murder 2 or murder 1 charge. If there was even the slightest chance that Michael could have been saved by that hospital team, then Murray's actions at the point of not getting help immediately would seem very deliberate as well as giving misinformation to the EMT; you are no longer talking about accidental or medical mistake.
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:clapping::clapping:

I am outraged of how 'easy' Murray is targeted by everybody - prosecutors, J family, many fans. Murray displayed intent to cover up and NO remorse.

He did not call the 911 in time.

He lied to paramedics, he lied to hospital about all the medication and the situation with Mike. If he would have said the truth, maybe they would have been able to revive him.
Even if Mike couldn't been saved, the MORAL PRINCIPLE remains.

At hospital he left because he was hungry. He wanted FOOD!
( no remorse )

A blend of intent to hide, lie, and no remorse. That's beyond manslaughter...
 
mthalen said:
The charge would be appropriate, but I agre with Ramona: the jury will be the problem, because there can always be the one juror that will say: "yes, Murray was negligent, and yes, had he called 911 Michael might've been saved, but well, MJ asked for the medicines himself, he wanted to take the risk, this is what he got"...

I'm glad they wo'nt take that chance, cause I'd rather see Murray in prison for 4 years, than acquitted for trying him for murder 2 or 1.
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Yeah but those charges can be separate...?

I mean - menslaughter for causing Mike death

Second degree or first for intent to cover up, for lying in front of a medical authority ( paramedics and at hospital ) and for showing absolutely no remorse.
 
Tipareth said:
Yeah but those charges can be separate...?

I mean - menslaughter for causing Mike death

Second degree or first for intent to cover up, for lying in front of a medical authority ( paramedics and at hospital ) and for showing absolutely no remorse.
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we were discussing that at the time charges were filed, the fact that there is only one count and a "low" charge. At the time, one possibility was that it was that the DA wanted to make sure there would be no plea bargain, and so to make sure that there would be a public trial.
 
so the prosecution wasn't objecting to Murray's defense attorney? Maybe the prosecution will charge Murray with enabling and prescribing to an addict
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why would u object? let the defence run their mouths. they are showing the prosecution their defence. so the pros lets them carry on so the pros know what they are dealing with.we know from the way they are acting and trying to attack the paramedics!! that they have no defence at all

and frankly the defence are only going with this theory cause of the jacksons. so whatever its to late to get angry now


On cross examination, Ed Chernoff got Senneff to admit ... Jackson's skeletal, frail frame, along with his black/bluish feet, were signs of a drug addict.
Amazing...a paramedic enters the room and is suppose to instantly recognize the patient was a drug addict, but his doctor client who was administering drugs to him for weeks, had no clue. If they go this route, they'll just be hammering home Murray's negligence with his treatment.
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tmz lied the paramedic never said it was signs of a D.A


to whoever asked about the time line and what was murray doing fo 1hr 1.15 between the times the pros alleged the diprivan was given. murray spent 45 minutes on the phone. no doubt that is when mj passed and he only noticed at 12 midday while he was still on the phone

thanks bluetopez for the xtra updates and confirmation that the xtra needle marks on mj were from the medics and not signs of an addict like tmz tried to imply when the info first came back

and someone mentioned about the drip being hooked to something. i presume thats the iv stand as they are hung up on that

from what ive seen so far seems to me that there was one iv bag containing fluids for hydration connected to mj and murray was injecting via bolus into the other part of the y connector. although what happened to the bag alberto talked about. it was never found? who took it? and i presume it was taken off the pole and hidden after the 911 call or after the medics arrived as didnt it say that they had to take it off mj in order toget him on the floor so once it was de attached from mj it could be moved
 
Tipareth said:
Yeah but those charges can be separate...?

I mean - menslaughter for causing Mike death

Second degree or first for intent to cover up, for lying in front of a medical authority ( paramedics and at hospital ) and for showing absolutely no remorse.
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yes. u could charge him with MS and then charge him with obstruction of justice covering up charges etc

DA wanted to make sure there would be no plea bargain, and so to make sure that there would be a public trial.
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the D.A decided if theres gonna be a plea bargin so it makes no difference. its not like murray can say ill plead guilty to a lesser charge. its upto the da
 
elusive moonwalker said:
from what ive seen so far seems to me that there was one iv bag containing fluids for hydration connected to mj and murray was injecting via bolus into the other part of the y connector. although what happened to the bag alberto talked about. it was never found? who took it? and i presume it was taken off the pole and hidden after the 911 call or after the medics arrived as didnt it say that they had to take it off mj in order toget him on the floor so once it was de attached from mj it could be moved
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sorry, i'm getting confused. Where is the IV bag containing fluids mentionned ? I can't find it in the coroner's report.

page 5 of the ceroner's report (things collected at the scene on june 25th) : there is an epmty vial of propofol (no mention of an IV bag) could it be the one Alberto is mentionning ?

page 7 (bag in the closet on june 29th) : there is a pulse finger monitor. Alvarez said Murray put it on MJ right befotre the EMTs arrived. So how does it end up in that bag ? There were several of them ?

Aneasthesit report : she talks of several empty vials of propofol found at the scene (pge 31 paragraph "was the standard care ..."). I don't see them in the medical evidence on the coroner's report ...

sorry, I'm getting really confused here.. help !!!
 
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