Preliminary Hearing 5/1/11 Day two. Discussion thread

[twinklEE]

The key word is appeared he didn't say he was. There is a big difference.

 

[ginvid]

Ginvid... you know I really appreciate your daily hard work on each of the threads in the forum. You and the staff are just wonderful and you really do your best to protect us all. Always. I truly appreciate your every effort. I do my best to stick to the guidelines and rules in the forum, but there comes a point when we just can't stop asking these questions.

All our concerns ARE part of the discussion of what was said in the court. Do you really believe it is only us wondering why MJ would allow this to be done to him? As far as I know, and of course I might be quite wrong, Memefan for one is not a conspiracy believer (if I am wrong, please excuse me, Memefan ). These are valid questions. Should we have a "Why do you believe MJ would allow CM to do this or that?" thread? If so... how are we to discuss that without the input of what is happening in court?

I really believe deep in my heart that painful and terrible as it might be, we need to challenge ourselves with these questions, for it's the only reason to get some idea of what happened to Michael. He didn't just die "suddenly", but he rather died as a consequence of a serious of wrong and criminal actions over a period of time. Two months, at least.

MJ's reasons to do this are important and are a part of the investigation. If they get to understand how desperate was his need for sleep, they will also be able to see how guilty this CM fellow is. In my personal opinion, MJ's needs only add to the evidence against CM and just shows he couldn't really stop CM, but it was CM who should have avoid doing this to Michael over and over again, while giving him a sense of "no problem, friend, I can handle it".

All that said, I don't want to be banned. I just need to express my concerns and opinions. If this is disturbing, I will do my best to follow the rules, though. However, I can't promise I will not bring the concerns again. I am sorry for all this nightmare thanks for understanding this too.

PCR, wondering about MJ's role in his death is something that is going to happen and it is NOT conspiracy theory talk. It is natural to wonder what MJ was thinking and what may have led up to his decision to use propofol. (if he even asked for it. There are many ideas surrounding why and IF he even asked for it. As well as how comfortable he was made to feel about it.)

But for what we know now, any speaking about MJ's frame of mind as to why he used it is just conjecture, until we get more information. So we will be asking questions that at this time are unanswerable. It would be impossible to tell until we get more information. But at the time we are asking we are very much upsetting fans who are just trying to find out what was said in court and are trying to understand with out everyone's subjective, personal interpretations about what happened.

We don't know how long MJ was given propofol. What don't know the time line for mediceine that night. Murray's lawyer said what the police presented was "their" timeline and not what Murray says happened. We are trying to piece together what happened factually. As you see, Murray's motive has not been examined here either. Nor should MJ's. The threads for the trial have been trying to determine what actually happened based on the trickles of information we are receiving.

I think eventually there will be a thread about MJ's state of mind as things become clearer. But for now, in this thread in particular, for the sake of your fellow members, we are asking that we refrain from this particular point of view. Can't we all imagine how difficult this is for one another to bear?

We will not always have to forego the hard questions just to appease the discomforts of our fellow fans. But it is now so early on and for many it just seems like some are taking shots at MJ to put the blame on him because of the lack of information we know.

I can almost guarantee as we get deeper into this, what Murray's motive is and what was pushing MJ will have to be spoken of as they are key parts of the actual trial.

 

[MJ~And~Me]

I agree Stacey. I don't blame Michael either. Like you said he must have been extremely desperate to even go to these messures. ..
I just don't get this whole thing, he surely did not deserve any of this. This is so heart wrenching and seeing Murray be unfazed and continue to front like he did nothing wrong, gosh now I shouldn't write what I feel but I sincerely hope that this man has an extremely cruel and painful ending. This is not fair, not at all.
Poor Michael

yes me to it sounds awful :yes: but he has to pay for his actions :yes:

I totally agree. Without going off topic into something that will lead you to ask me to avoid "conspiracy talking", one can't deny there are really and undeniably reasons to question what was leading CM to do as bad as he did over and over again. I will not give any more details, but I do believe this must be investigated, especially if there are other claims (in the case of Katherine against AEG) stating he was a "long time doctor" for Michael. I can understand you hire a doctor "for a long time" because you trust him and he has been a great doctor for you. So if he was such a great doctor, how is it that he turned into a useless doctor in a matter of hours in one night?
Sorry, but things simply don't add up. This must be taken to trial for there are simply too many details to believe CM is a criminal, or at least a careless doctor, which means he is a criminal with licence to "protect" people's lives, which is beyond stupid and dangerous.

correct :yes:but i dont think he was the only one involved in it :no:

All very shocking, and the paramedic thought MJ was a hospice patient? That means he must have looked very bad, if a paramedic has that opinion. So how come no one else seems to think MJ looked ill, even at the rehearsal 12 hours before? Or did they turn a blind eye?

exactly someone must have got the family to take a day out or something for it to happen i know his children were in the house :yes: but do you get what i mean

 

[rita.gibson]

I find this interesting. That tells us that Mike ate other nights, when supposedly Murray gave him Propofol.

So if Mike ate and then Murray put him under.... See the discordance?

Maybe this is indication that Propofol wasn't used before, and Mike ate, of course, his dinners.

I am highly suspicious toward Mike ever using Propofol for insomnia. I think he used other drugs and sedatives, and also hydrate via IV and maybe some oxygen ( he got some lung problems - see autopsy report )

Great observation Tipareth...'nil by mouth' I never even clocked that, I have though always suspected that Murray possibly introduced him to Propofol after Michael told the nurse "the doctor said it was safe".

 

[gerryevans]

Based on just two days testimony, it seems like he did everything he could to make sure no one was able to revive MJ. I don't think we've seen testimony as of yet to show he killed him intentionally, but I do believe based on the testimony thus far that he did intentionally ensure that no one was able to revive MJ, i.e. 1) not calling 911 right away, 2) not telling the paramedics or the hospital staff that he gave MJ propofol, 3) as was mentioned in a recent post he broke the IV/syringe in MJ's leg when the paramedics told him to use that same one to get MJ some ephedrine to start his heart.

Not knowing CPR, I can label that as incompetency, maybe even 3) above, but 1) and 2) can't just be attributed to incompetency. Even I would know to do 1) and 2) above. One can justifiably argue that that was intentional.

I hate to accuse anyone of something so severe, but I just can't grasp how an experienced doctor can be so incompetent. This whole thing just boggles my mind. His actions are beyond my comprehension.

Yes, it's indeed mind boggling. But when I begin thinking intentional, I come away thinking it shows he's as dumb a murderer as a doctor. Being a so called heart specialist and MJ under the pressure of a major comeback tour, you'd think there were far less complicated and "CLEANER" ways for him to cause death.

It's just that either way you think about it, he's incompetent, and you don't know which way to definitively think. Hopefully, this painful prelim and trial will give us answers.

 

[chanel05]

I think the anesthesiologist said no comment. I don't believe he admitted it.

thanks... i had always wandered how he admitted that and nothing happened to him. now i see that he said no comment

 

[chanel05]

All very shocking, and the paramedic thought MJ was a hospice patient? That means he must have looked very bad, if a paramedic has that opinion. So how come no one else seems to think MJ looked ill, even at the rehearsal 12 hours before? Or did they turn a blind eye?

from my understanding the emt thought he was hospice because he was pale, thin, had all of the medical equipment in his room and a doctor by his side... i think everything factored into it

 

[Asedora]

Yes I found this part of Kai's testimony strange. But I simply don't understand, I cannot interpret that, we need more info, the transcripts, or wait for the actual trial.

On the other hand, search warrants showed that Murray was buying propofol since mid may. Or at least that he bought some mid may. Why would he have so much propofol if it was just for one night ?

Also we don't have the hair tox result, but the prosecution does. Hopefully it will show what exactly what Michael had been given in the weeks prior to his death. If that doesn't come up during the prelim, it will surely come up duroing the trial.

Nicole Alvarez testimony tomorrow might help also tomorrow.

Good question. When MJ was visiting Klein's office , he was sleeping there for a few hours under anesthetic each time he went there. Then (according to Ortega testifying in court), they had a meeting in MJ house a few days before he died. As far as I know they stopped him going to Klein's office because MJ used to appear "sleepy" on rehearsals. It was a business desidion.
After a few days of non sleeping I assume MJ was begging Murray to give him Propofol because he could not sleep without it. I do believe that this is the first time Murray was administrating Propofol to MJ.
It was discussed before right after June 25th 2009 that Murray asked Klein how to administer anestetic but Klein appeared to deny everything. No surprise for me.

 

[rockstar]

Hi, rockstar. What happens next is that this is another full court-day, and there will be additional testimony. Ivy has been doing a WONDERFUL job keeping us updated, and I'm hoping she can continue?

The difference between these testimonies and months of "reporting" by TMZ, and others, is that these statements are under OATH, i.e. people pledge to tell the truth (doesn't meant they can't lie, but if they do and it's discovered, there are legal penalties.)

thank you Autumn II

 

[chanel05]

I hate to bring Mike's family and friends into this but did anyone care? if the EMT is saying MJ looked ill and like a hospice patient why in the heck didn't anyone help Michael? Did Katherine talk or visit her son at all? she claimed she saw him a week before he died. Did he look like a hospice patient then?

Poor MJ.. He had absolutely no one that cared about him. It was all about the money with everyone. His children were probably concerned but what could they do, they're children? Where was Mike's family? didn't LaToya live around the corner from Mike in Beverly Hills?

i remember joe saying he wanted katherine to go over there cause he thought he didnt look well but she said no. i also remember hearing about an intervention that was supposedly tried by either randy or randy and some more of his brothers in june 09. im only 100% sure about what joe said though.
i find it funny that on this forum and on the 2300 jackson street forum, anytime a family member said anything about interventions, you bashed them and called them liars. now you saying they didnt care and didnt try to help??? ha ha funny..... you cant have it both ways

 

[chanel05]

Good question. When MJ was visiting Klein's office , he was sleeping there for a few hours under anesthetic each time he went there. Then (according to Ortega testifying in court), they had a meeting in MJ house a few days before he died. As far as I know they stopped him going to Klein's office because MJ used to appear "sleepy" on rehearsals. It was a business desidion.
After a few days of non sleeping I assume MJ was begging Murray to give him Propofol because he could not sleep without it. I do believe that this is the first time Murray was administrating Propofol to MJ.
It was discussed before right after June 25th 2009 that Murray asked Klein how to administer anestetic but Klein appeared to deny everything. No surprise for me.

i forgot about kleins role in this... do you think he will be called to testify???

 

[Asedora]

i forgot about kleins role in this... do you think he will be called to testify???

Not just Klein. There are other folks too. I hope they will call Klein to testify but I have no doubts that he will deny everything to save his ass.

 

[ginvid]

Can everyone please not double post if at all possible. Please use the multi post function.

Thanks.

 

[AllForMJ]

Hospice is a medical program that allows terminally ill individuals to spend their final days at home with a trained medical staff person that is assigned to them.

Since MJ was in a home setting with an IV, catheter, doctor and such, and the paramedic wasn't expecting him to be the person that they were being called to assist, because everyone on earth had heard MJ was kicking off a major concert series, it makes sense that the paramedic would have thought that MJ was a hospice patient. Hospice patients die at home. MJ died at home.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

ginvid is right with this explanation. Last night from several sources I collected what Senneff had said (see below) , it's obvious that from his comment the IV stand and the doctor played an important role in his initial perception also he mentions the weight last.

when you walk into an unknown room and see a unknown person with an IV and a doctor, what would u think? The most reasonable answer is sick.

- Senneff testified when they initially came in they thought MJ to be a hospice patient (Senneff said he did not recognize Jackson) and frail as he looked pale, thin and had a IV stand and a personal doctor by his bedside. "I don't often see an IV pole and a doctor on hand," Senneff said. "The patient appeared to be pale and underweight, I was thinking along the lines that he was a hospice patient."

:clapping:thank you.some fans are as bad as the media at twisting ppls statements and/or not reading them properly. and then running with totally the opposite of what was ment.

 

[PCR]

i forgot about kleins role in this... do you think he will be called to testify???

Klein should be there, sitting side by side with CM.
He has many questions to answer, imo.

 

[PCR]

PCR, wondering about MJ's role in his death is something that is going to happen and it is NOT conspiracy theory talk. It is natural to wonder what MJ was thinking and what may have led up to his decision to use propofol. (if he even asked for it. There are many ideas surrounding why and IF he even asked for it. As well as how comfortable he was made to feel about it.)

But for what we know now, any speaking about MJ's frame of mind as to why he used it is just conjecture, until we get more information. So we will be asking questions that at this time are unanswerable. It would be impossible to tell until we get more information. But at the time we are asking we are very much upsetting fans who are just trying to find out what was said in court and are trying to understand with out everyone's subjective, personal interpretations about what happened.

We don't know how long MJ was given propofol. What don't know the time line for mediceine that night. Murray's lawyer said what the police presented was "their" timeline and not what Murray says happened. We are trying to piece together what happened factually. As you see, Murray's motive has not been examined here either. Nor should MJ's. The threads for the trial have been trying to determine what actually happened based on the trickles of information we are receiving.

I think eventually there will be a thread about MJ's state of mind as things become clearer. But for now, in this thread in particular, for the sake of your fellow members, we are asking that we refrain from this particular point of view. Can't we all imagine how difficult this is for one another to bear?

We will not always have to forego the hard questions just to appease the discomforts of our fellow fans. But it is now so early on and for many it just seems like some are taking shots at MJ to put the blame on him because of the lack of information we know.

I can almost guarantee as we get deeper into this, what Murray's motive is and what was pushing MJ will have to be spoken of as they are key parts of the actual trial.

Ginvid... you are right. I see your point here now. However, in my opinion, acknowledging MJ's problems should be in no way seen as putting all the blame on him, but rather as something that makes CM crime even worst.

I will, however, follow the guidelines here. I think we will get soon in that part of the talking and there are facts we will not be able to ignore anymore. I hope all this will just make those people realize CM is a criminal and that he must be taken to trial and put behind the bars and that his licence must be taken away.

Thank you so much for being to patient to explain your point in details. It really helps me to understand things better. However, I just beg for you fellow fans to understand my (and others) point here too: Michael needed help and he was denied getting it.

 

[chanel05]

Hospice is a medical program that allows terminally ill individuals to spend their final days at home with a trained medical staff person that is assigned to them.

Since MJ was in a home setting with an IV, catheter, doctor and such, and the paramedic wasn't expecting him to be the person that they were being called to assist, because everyone on earth had heard MJ was kicking off a major concert series, it makes sense that the paramedic would have thought that MJ was a hospice patient. Hospice patients die at home. MJ died at home.

i agree.. but you know how some jump to conclusions

Klein should be there, sitting side by side with CM.
He has many questions to answer, imo.

yes he has alot to answer to

Ginvid... you are right. I see your point here now. However, in my opinion, acknowledging MJ's problems should be in no way seen as putting all the blame on him, but rather as something that makes CM crime even worst.

I will, however, follow the guidelines here. I think we will get soon in that part of the talking and there are facts we will not be able to ignore anymore. I hope all this will just make those people realize CM is a criminal and that he must be taken to trial and put behind the bars and that his licence must be taken away.

Thank you so much for being to patient to explain your point in details. It really helps me to understand things better. However, I just beg for you fellow fans to understand my (and others) point here too: Michael needed help and he was denied getting it.

i agree.. thats how i feel.. the help he needed he wasnt receiving

 

[AllForMJ]

If the paramedic knew in advance that he was going to the home of Michael Jackson, then he would have expected MJ's color to be pale (i.e., white). Everyone knew what color MJ's skin was at that time in his life. He was no longer brown and hadn't been for many years. But, the paramedic did not know that he was going to the address of Michael Jackson. The call to 911 was done with discretion. Let's not forget to factor in all of this.

Additionally, MJ often became very little while he was working on concerts. If you need proof of this, look at page 91 of the December 2007 issue of Ebony. MJ is just as light weight on that picture as he was in 2009. His weight actually looks even lower on that picture. Did he die back then? No, he did not. Thriller came later, didn't it? Therefore, we should stop focusing so much on his weight. MJ's weight always fluctuated over the years. Many can attest to that.

As for MJ not feeling well back on June 19th. He had good reasons to not feel well. Let's not forget that he was going through that stuff with Raymone trying to get $44 million from him with that default crap. Remember that? He had a deadline to respond. This is what happened on June 18th, the day before. Don't forget, MJJC members, TSCM was providing us with excellent updates on that court matter.

*********************

Major Court Update June 18, 2009

Today, several key motions were filed by Michael's defense to both respond to and oppose Raymone's claims. A summary of the VERY REVEALING claims as made by Michael's attorneys is included below:

- On December 27, 2007 both Michael Jackson and Raymone Bain entered into a "Payment and Release Agreement" whereby Raymone acknowledged that she was "not owed any additional monies under any other agreement from the beginning of time until December 27, 2007." As such, Michael's team claims that "any monies allegedly owed under the May 30, 2006 agreement between the parties were extinguished under the Payment and Release."

- The defense notes that this Payment and Release form is, not surprisingly, "completely and conspicuously absent from any of Plaintiffs’ pleadings and filings with this Court."

- More legal jargon which ultimately reiterates their stance that Raymone's claim is legally "not only without merit, but is frivolous."

- A deposition from Londell McMillan confirmed that Raymone Bain, as part of the Payment and Release Agreement she signed into in 2007, was paid $488,820.05 and was fully satisfied, with total acknowledgment that NO OTHER MONEY was owed to her under ANY past agreements. This makes it clear why she avoided mentioning that release agreement in her complaint.

- The actual payment and release agreement states, in part:

(To read the rest, go here: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-64965.html)

 

[MJMarty]

Is anyone else listening to the UStream with the girl who was there yesterday? Jesus Christ it's so detailed its horrific.

 

[wendy2004]

Hospice is a medical program that allows terminally ill individuals to spend their final days at home with a trained medical staff person that is assigned to them.

Since MJ was in a home setting with an IV, catheter, doctor and such, and the paramedic wasn't expecting him to be the person that they were being called to assist, because everyone on earth had heard MJ was kicking off a major concert series, it makes sense that the paramedic would have thought that MJ was a hospice patient. Hospice patients die at home. MJ died at home.

Agrees with this and Ivy's post. Thank you both.

:clapping:thank you.some fans are as bad as the media at twisting ppls statements and/or not reading them properly. and then running with totally the opposite of what was ment.

One of the main reasons I stopped debating in this section months ago. It's like round and round we go. Exhausting.

If the paramedic knew in advance that he was going to the home of Michael Jackson, then he would have expected MJ's color to be pale (i.e., white). Everyone knew what color MJ's skin was at that time in his life. He was no longer brown and hadn't been for many years. But, the paramedic did not know that he was going to the address of Michael Jackson. The call to 911 was done with discretion. Let's not forget to factor in all of this.

Additionally, MJ often became very little while he was working on concerts. If you need proof of this, look at page 91 of the December 2007 issue of Ebony. MJ is just as light weight on that picture as he was in 2009. His weight actually looks even lower on that picture. Did he die back then? No, he did not. Thriller came later, didn't it? Therefore, we should stop focusing so much on his weight. MJ's weight always fluctuated over the years. Many can attest to that.

As for MJ not feeling well back on June 19th. He had good reasons to not feel well. Let's not forget that he was going through that stuff with Raymone trying to get $44 million from him with that default crap. Remember that? He had a deadline to respond. This is what happened on June 18th, the day before. Don't forget, MJJC members, TSCM was providing us with excellent updates on that court matter.

*********************

Major Court Update June 18, 2009

Today, several key motions were filed by Michael's defense to both respond to and oppose Raymone's claims. A summary of the VERY REVEALING claims as made by Michael's attorneys is included below:

- On December 27, 2007 both Michael Jackson and Raymone Bain entered into a "Payment and Release Agreement" whereby Raymone acknowledged that she was "not owed any additional monies under any other agreement from the beginning of time until December 27, 2007." As such, Michael's team claims that "any monies allegedly owed under the May 30, 2006 agreement between the parties were extinguished under the Payment and Release."

- The defense notes that this Payment and Release form is, not surprisingly, "completely and conspicuously absent from any of Plaintiffs’ pleadings and filings with this Court."

- More legal jargon which ultimately reiterates their stance that Raymone's claim is legally "not only without merit, but is frivolous."

- A deposition from Londell McMillan confirmed that Raymone Bain, as part of the Payment and Release Agreement she signed into in 2007, was paid $488,820.05 and was fully satisfied, with total acknowledgment that NO OTHER MONEY was owed to her under ANY past agreements. This makes it clear why she avoided mentioning that release agreement in her complaint.

- The actual payment and release agreement states, in part:

(To read the rest, go here: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-64965.html)

Thank you. AllForMJ! I've always said it's important to keep in mind everything that was going on around Michael when trying to make sense of things. It gives a clearer picture of understanding?

I think a lot of fans have completely dismissed the other chaos that was going on with Michael in the months/weeks before his death that was caused by people who are NOT in Katherine or Joe's lawsuit. If ppl want to talk about the weight Michael was carrying on his shoulders and opposition he was facing that may have caused him "stress", there's quite a few other/companies that should be a defendant in those lawsuits as well, IMO.

Thanks again for the Raymone business on the 18th. Maybe someone should start compiling a timeline of all these things...if one doesn't exist already. Might be interesting to see the picture all the details paint once put together.

 

[chanel05]

Is anyone else listening to the UStream with the girl who was there yesterday? Jesus Christ it's so detailed its horrific.

i am listening now

 

[bowen9999]

He was on the bed.

Do you have a link to this information? I can't find it anywhere.

Just found this (although it was in the News of the World, March 2010).... The medics noted Murray performing CPR as Jackson lay on the floor with an intravenous (IV) drip in his left LEG. In the comments section, one wrote: "50-year-old found supine on floor, cpr in progress via PMD Murray, no visible new trauma, good lung sounds faltering, intubation, IV in place left leg."

Is anyone else listening to the UStream with the girl who was there yesterday? Jesus Christ it's so detailed its horrific.

I can't hear anything... it's not loading for me.

 

[ScrEAm.Jack5on]

Alverez said the pulse monitor was put on MJ by Murray like a second before 911 was called.. it monitors oxygen levels etc.. that should have been on as standard when he administered the propofol.. that could have saved MJs life.

 

[AllForMJ]

It looks like MJ died somewhere between 10:40 a.m. and 11:51 a.m. That is a 1 hour and 11 minutes window.

From 11:51 a.m. to 12:21 p.m., Conrad Murray was, for 21 minutes, semi trying to save MJ while he was more so trying to cover up all the things that he knew could get him locked up.

So, one of the questions is...

What was Murray doing during the 1 hour and 11 minutes?

It is obvious that he was not monitoring MJ the whole entire time, or he would have had a chance to get some help for MJ before he had fully slipped into a state where he could not be revived.

Okay, so the answer has now been provided by telephone company reps.

That fool was talking on THE PHONE!!! He was YAPPIN'!!! Not for 1 hour and 11 minutes!! For close to 1 hour and 30 minutes!!!!

DAMN!!!!!!!!!

 

[riviera1992]

Did Chernoff really say that ???? Yes it is stupid and hateful, and if he did say that, well his stupidity was exposed...A lot of people in a courtroom (including the jurors) will see it that way I guess. I would be happy to use that against him. His client is suspected of killing someone and all he thinks of is insisting on these kind of details ?? Wow.

Because the agenda is the same as in 2005. The main goal was/is to humiliate Michael Jackson no matter how weak the case was/is. All they have to do is put sordid details out there and let the medialoids and haters do the rest and VOILA!

It didn't matter than MJ was found not guity on all charges in 05, mission was accomplished anyway: Michael Jackson was destroyed.

And it doesn't matter now either if Murray is found guilty or not. The end result will be achieved and Michael will be/is humiliated once again.

 

[Spider-Man]

Is anyone else listening to the UStream with the girl who was there yesterday? Jesus Christ it's so detailed its horrific.

Do you hvae a link?

 

[czechstar]

This is all so painful and brings back all the shock and sadness of 18 months ago.

Michael, your fans around the world miss you, and love you so much. Thank you...

 

[souldreamer7]

Also, (Sorry for the DP) the paramedic said MJ looked frail and thin and as a hospice patient for several reasons:

1. He had been dead for what they estimate as 20 minutes
2. He already begun to turn blue
3. He was hooked up to an IV
4. He had a personal doctor

Let's not turn this into a our perception that MJ must have looked unhealthy while rehearsing. In terms of his body weight and his appearance (at least for the last few days) we have testimony and a coroner's report that MJ was on the low side, but a healythy weight for his height and age.

When you die, and you were put through the rigner in a panicked situation as MJ was, what do you expeect the paramedics to find when they entered the room?

We have to be very careful here about taking some parts and not all parts in an effort to make it fit what we perceived to have happened. We haveto be willing to throw out our beliefs as more information comes forward. But also be willing to marry up subjective context with known scientific facts that cannot be changed. He was 136 lbs when he died. We see him on the screen vivacious, very strong and not frail at all. The paramedics commented at they did because of the circumstances of the room and the body, not just because of MJ;s appearance alone.

Let's remember to not jump the gun here and start attacking where it is not due. Not yet anyway.

:agree:

This is a good informative post. The EMT (obviously) hadn't realized when he very first walked in, that is was Michael Jackson and it would be natural at first glance to assume what he did while observing the surroudings. he really does seem like the EMT was doing his job.
Thank you ginvid for this post.

:wub:
souldreamer7

 

[Autumn II]

The petition link for an increase in Murray's charges is now posted on the "Press-release" thread (and here, too: http://www.PetitionO...J/petition.html) Feel free to post the link on other sites.

MJJC staff, if you think that should have it's own thread to be more visible, please create one? Thanks.