Preliminary Hearing 6/1/11 Day Three. Discussion thread

[rita.gibson]

I was on the Justice4MJ Ustream, and someone also questioned this. The answer was that it was Alberto Alvarez who said he had not done it before (CPR I assumed). So we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions by badly worded reports. At this point I'm not sure who said it!!

OK thanks for pointing that out I'll go and read that part again.

 

[Soundmind]

Hi everyone !

thank you VERY much Ivy for the updates !

I have a question about the beads in the beds that left perimortem abrasions :

Perimortal means that it happened at or around the time of death.

So it makes it clear that when he was taken off the bed (12 21) MJ had gone.

Now, if MJ had been lying on those beads for a long time, wouldn't they be antemortem abrasions ?

My point is, do these beads show that MJ was moved at or around the time of his death ??? Meaning then that he was not alone at that time. If so, then it might help with the self injection theory.

You are correct, if he was lying on them before that last injection they would have been ruled as antemortem.

Yes, the abrasions occur IMMEDIALTEY before or AT the time of death. So yes either MJ collapsed on them after he increased the infusion (defense theory) or Murray did witness everything and he moved MJ to do CPR.

If the prosecution prove MJ could not have done it, then Murray sure was there when MJ died.

 

[StacyJ]

You are correct, if he was lying on them before that last injection they would have been ruled as perimortem.

Yes, the abrasions occured IMMEDIALTEY before or AT the time of death. So yes either MJ collapsed on them after he increased the infusion (defense theory) or Murray did witness everything and he moved MJ to do CPR.

If the prosecution prove MJ could not have done it, then Murray was sure there when MJ died.

Hasn't Murray admitted to one of the ER doctors that he was there when MJ stopped breathing?

 

[Laura.L.]

Hasn't Murray admitted to one of the ER doctors that he was there when MJ stopped breathing?

This is from Dr. Cooper's testimony yesterday:

- UCLA receives call from paramedics. They estimate time of cardiac arrest as 12:18 (this is an "estimated time" based on 911 call and information they receive). As the revival efforts produce no results Dr. Cooper gave the paramedics permission to pronounce MJ dead at 12:57. Dr. Cooper told for the transport Murray had to take over the control and be with the patient.

- When they come to the hospital Murray tells MJ wasn't ill only had trouble sleeping and dehydrated, gave him lorezapeam, witnessed the cardiac arrest. She's later asked what is "witnessing the arrest" means she says "seeing patient stop breathing".

 

[Milka]

If the prosecution prove MJ could not have done it, then Murray sure was there when MJ died.

If that is true (and maybe we will never know ...), then that would be so horrible, in that case calling 911 right away and telling them what he gave him would have probably made all the difference in the world.

Ok, just started to read the last couple of posts in here and I already need my first break today.

 

[StacyJ]

ok thanks so he told her he witnessed it. I'm pretty sure his attorneys will say that Ms Cooper misunderstood and Murray didn't say that. His attorneys claim Murray went to the restroom for 2 minutes and then came back and 'discovered' it.

Murray is a bold-faced liar!!

 

[Soundmind]

Murray said when he came back mj still had a pulse but was not breathing , so what do you call that?

I don't know if the coroner will be BOLD ENOUGH to say MJ might have been dead for more than hour when the paramedics arrived. But if Murray keeps insisting he gave propofol at 10:40 am and the coroner ruled out copmletely the self-injection theory. Then yes , based on the EVIDENCE MJ would have been dead since 10:40 + am.

 

[StacyJ]

Murray said when he came back mj still had a pulse but was not breathing , so what do you call that?

I don't know if the coroner will be BOLD ENOUGH to say MJ might have been dead for more than hour when the paramedics arrived. But if Murray keeps insisting he gave propofol at 10:40 am and the coroner ruled out copmletely the self-injection theory. Then yes , based on the EVIDENCE MJ would have been dead since 10:40 + am.

true and not calling 911 until 12:13 pm would make Murray look like the murderer that he is. I hope the coroner is testifying at this preliminary hearing. I want to hear his time of death theory and also his declaration that MJ was in good health and had good and healthy organs

 

[ivy]

ok thanks so he told her he witnessed it. I'm pretty sure his attorneys will say that Ms Cooper misunderstood and Murray didn't say that. His attorneys claim Murray went to the restroom for 2 minutes and then came back and 'discovered' it.

Murray is a bold-faced liar!!

they already hinted misunderstanding. They asked Dr. Cooper did she ask Murray to elaborate what he meant by "witnessing the arrest", she said no. but she also said it's a common phrase to use among the physicians and would mean seeing breathing stopped.

 

[Milka]

Murray is a bold-faced liar!!

All those different stories ... he couldn't even stick with one ... they are very telling.

If something like that ever happened to me, I couldn't live with myself anymore and would turn myself in and tell them everything I did and gave the patient (I would also tell the EMT's in the hope that the info helps them), a cover up is the last thing that I would think about, and they probably would have to put me on suicide watch. How can he even look in the mirror?

 

[Vici]

One q guys..

Yesterday during cross examination Dr. Cooper is asked if she knew Murray given MJ propofol it would have made any difference in her treatment. She says no, she was treating cardiac arrest.

How come she wouldnt had acted differently if she knew MJ had been giving Propofol? Was it because MJ had gone into cardiac arrest at that time and it wouldnt have made any difference knowing what Murray had given him??

 

[elusive moonwalker]

One q guys..

Yesterday during cross examination Dr. Cooper is asked if she knew Murray given MJ propofol it would have made any difference in her treatment. She says no, she was treating cardiac arrest.

How come she wouldnt had acted differently if she knew MJ had been giving Propofol? Was it because MJ had gone into cardiac arrest at that time and it wouldnt have made any difference knowing what Murray had given him??

bascially yes. i dont think it matter whats caused the CA. the fact is that is what needed treating. it didnt really matter what caused it. it was long past getting an antidote for an overdose of a certain drug

 

[Milka]

One q guys..

Yesterday during cross examination Dr. Cooper is asked if she knew Murray given MJ propofol it would have made any difference in her treatment. She says no, she was treating cardiac arrest.

How come she wouldnt had acted differently if she knew MJ had been giving Propofol? Was it because MJ had gone into cardiac arrest at that time and it wouldnt have made any difference knowing what Murray had given him??

My guess is that in this situation all they are concerned about is getting the heart to start beating again. Now after that, I'm sure they would be very interested and probably would need to know what happened and what meds he was given.

 

[Vici]

^^^thank u guys.. *sigh*

 

[Cookie Monzter]

One q guys..

Yesterday during cross examination Dr. Cooper is asked if she knew Murray given MJ propofol it would have made any difference in her treatment. She says no, she was treating cardiac arrest.

How come she wouldnt had acted differently if she knew MJ had been giving Propofol? Was it because MJ had gone into cardiac arrest at that time and it wouldnt have made any difference knowing what Murray had given him??

In any cardiaorespiratory arrest situation, the initial treatment is the same with the aim of minimising brain damage due to the lack of oxygen to the brain in an arrest and then to try to revive the patient. The effects of propofol are short lasting and the management would be to support his breathing and drugs like adrenaline as used in managing a cardiac arrest in general.

 

[Topflux]

yes- I agree - the timeline is w e i r d !! :bugeyed :no:

I thought it again and what if 'the so called doctor' Murray wasn't even meant to be with Michael then after that around 10:30 when he started using his phone like a hell.. I mean what if Michael wasn't sleeping through the night and that's why Murray continued making him sleeping abnormally after 10 o'clock. But it's like Murray couldn't leave his own businesses because all the people probably thought he was available after 10, and it would have been kinda shameful for Murray to admit he is still with one of his patient. So it would be interesting to hear i.e. what Murray says in the phone where he is, like is he making up what he is doing. Calls just can't take that long if you tell you can't speak now.

You know, they said it would have been bad for Michael to miss rehearsals so probably Michael himself decided with Conrad Murray to continue treatments after 10, but did anyone else ever know it would be like that? I remember that Alvarez was meant to drive him to the rehearsals but that Alvarez didn't do that if Michael didn't order. That he didn't take orders from elsewhere. So it was probably agreed that if Michael needs to sleep he will as long as possible. But usually Michael didn't do that because it looks like he had some routines..

 

[crazychick!!!]

Did Murray or his attorney ever give a reason why Murray gave MJ Propofol at 10:40 AM, instead of much earlier? It always seemed strange to me that MJ would want to take Propofol at that time because it was reported that MJ usually woke-up at 12 PM and rehearsals started at 2 PM, so he would not have gotten much sleep if he actually demanded it at 10:40 AM.

And did Murray ever mention whether or not MJ was awake the entire time or at least some of the time before he gave him the Propofol at 10:40 AM?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

mj demanded it his is excuse.although when that happened is strange as murray was on the phone at 1030 for over 20 minutes. he said mj was awake pretty much all night thats why he gave a timeline of all the drugs he gave and when. it started at around 2am and went all the way through

murray then changed the time and said i gave it at around 11.40 which is evenworse as he was on the phone non stop from 11.18 till 12 so when he had the time to have mj demanding it of him i dont know!

 

[StacyJ]

mj demanded it his is excuse.although when that happened is strange as murray was on the phone at 1030 for over 20 minutes. he said mj was awake pretty much all night thats why he gave a timeline of all the drugs he gave and when. it started at around 2am and went all the way through

murray then changed the time and said i gave it at around 11.40 which is evenworse as he was on the phone non stop from 11.18 till 12 so when he had the time to have mj demanding it of him i dont know!

exactly.. it's proof Murray is lying. MJ didn't demand anything. If he did why didn't Murray's telephone buddies hear MJ 'demanding' drugs?