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Preliminary Hearing 6/1/11 Day Three. Discussion thread

jemini515 said:
I have been thinking more about the fact that Murray hid the administration of propofol when questioned by EMTs and the UCLA doctors. If he was intent on hiding the fact that he gave an anesthetic, why did he leave the catheter on, if it would only be used under sedation circumstances? He hid other evidence like bottles.
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Probably forgot about that... somebody who starts CPR on a soft surface would be a candidate for that.

Or is severely messed up upstairs.

Or both.

Or destiny helped out because EMTs KNEW that something funky was going on- the sight of a catheter spoke volumes and as weird as that may seem- that may help out.

Didn't a bodyguard state that the oximeter was clipped on 'afterward'- but apparently someone remembered to cath Michael??

I guess there was enough worry about clean up, but not enough worry to monitor Michael appropriately with even the most basic equipment.
 
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jemini515 said:
I have been thinking more about the fact that Murray hid the administration of propofol when questioned by EMTs and the UCLA doctors. If he was intent on hiding the fact that he gave an anesthetic, why did he leave the catheter on, if it would only be used under sedation circumstances? He hid other evidence like bottles.
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Which catheter do you mean? The condom one or the i.v.? MJ had a saline drip and Murray said MJ was dehydrated, so that was his excuse for the i.v. Besides, he would not have been able to hide the puncture wound, and it most definately would have been bleeding, so he would have needed to explain why MJ was bleeding from a wound that looks like a needle mark. And if it was on the back of MJ's leg, it would have been VERY difficult for MJ to do it himself. So maybe he figured it's better to leave it there, but WHO KNOWS.

And if you're talking about the condom catheter..well, I can only speculate and say maybe that's why MJ's penis was out of his underwear and visible...if he had a catheter there is no need for his penis to be visible. So maybe Murray HAD tried to yank it off but it didn't come off, but only pulled MJ's penis out of his underwear and maybe that's when Alberto came in so he had to start pretending he's doing CPR...on the bed...with one hand. Again, WHO KNOWS....I can only speculate.
 
Ingelief said:
why would randy pick michael up if alvaraz told that he drove michael to the rehearsals?
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In the TII DVD, during the extras, Randy mentions something about going to his home to pick him up, to make sure he attended rehearsals. I'm sure the transportation was rotated for certain days, depending on Michael felt about rehearsing that day.
 
Hi everyone !

thank you VERY much Ivy for the updates !

I have a question about the beads in the beds that left perimortal abrasions :

Perimortal means that it happened at or around the time of death.

So it makes it clear that when he was taken off the bed (12 21) MJ had gone.

Now, if MJ had been lying on those beads for a long time, wouldn't they be antemortem abrasions ?

My point is, do these beads show that MJ was moved at or around the time of his death ??? Meaning then that he was not alone at that time. If so, then it might help with the self injection theory.

I'm worried also about 2 things :

Murray realising much too late MJ had gone, and by much too late I mean Murray realised it was too late to do anything. To me this is a very serious option now, except if the DA can show that MJ was not alone.
Would that be a problem to raise the charges against Murray ?? If it was obviously too late , then the delay in calling 911, the waste of time collecting stuff in the room, etc...would not matter so much.

All the lies told by Murray : it's totally crazy, not what single thing he said seems to true. So the DA can't go by anything he said. Is it possible then to trace back what really happened, get a clear timing based on the medical evidence ???

Then about other things I read here :

the drug addict defense : I don't know how it would help Murray. There is the coroner's report, and the other doctors have also been investigated, and no charge were filed against them. Meaning that none of them was "prescribing to an addict", otherwise they would have been charged.
Besides, the point seems to be what happened that particular day, and the use of propofol.

It was said yesterday in court that they had the content of text messages and voice mails. They also know what the conversation that the defense objected to being told in court was about. So that will probably come out sometime if it helps the case.

All that happened those past 3 days got me very confused. It's so horrible. We did not learn many new facts, but reading this gives such a realistic image of what happened...It's shocking.
I can't help thinking of the kids and the family, whatever our opinion might be about some of them (I have mine and don't like everything they have been doing). It's horrible to lose a father, a son, a brother, but in these conditions ??? Beyond words. On a strictly human point of view, it's absolutely horrific.

I guess I need to take a break from this for a while, so I'll see you here later on
 
summer said:
And if you're talking about the condom catheter..well, I can only speculate and say maybe that's why MJ's penis was out of his underwear and visible...if he had a catheter there is no need for his penis to be visible. So maybe Murray HAD tried to yank it off but it didn't come off, but only pulled MJ's penis out of his underwear and maybe that's when Alberto came in so he had to start pretending he's doing CPR...on the bed...with one hand. Again, WHO KNOWS....I can only speculate.
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Yes, I was talking about that one. I can't imagine that Murray wouldn't have had the time to pull it off and straighten MJ's pajamas to create a more "usual" scene.
 
summer said:
Which catheter do you mean? The condom one or the i.v.? MJ had a saline drip and Murray said MJ was dehydrated, so that was his excuse for the i.v. Besides, he would not have been able to hide the puncture wound, and it most definately would have been bleeding, so he would have needed to explain why MJ was bleeding from a wound that looks like a needle mark. And if it was on the back of MJ's leg, it would have been VERY difficult for MJ to do it himself. So maybe he figured it's better to leave it there, but WHO KNOWS.

And if you're talking about the condom catheter..well, I can only speculate and say maybe that's why MJ's penis was out of his underwear and visible...if he had a catheter there is no need for his penis to be visible. So maybe Murray HAD tried to yank it off but it didn't come off, but only pulled MJ's penis out of his underwear and maybe that's when Alberto came in so he had to start pretending he's doing CPR...on the bed...with one hand. Again, WHO KNOWS....I can only speculate.
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Possible. Because propofol can cause priapism.
 
This is murder. Murder is written all over the case! Murray is not trained criminal, that is why he made a lot of mistakes, but this is sloppy planned murder. Breaks my heart, how inhuman Murray acted toward MJJ...
 
Don't you think there is something terribly wrong with the timeline? I don't understand why he did use phone hardly at all before 10:30 and then suddenly in two hours he used it like almost 90 minutes..? I mean it just doesn't add up with how Michael should have been all the time? Or does that mean he was with Michael up til that 10:30, then continued treating him but somehow suddenly neglected him? I just don't understand. Why would he suddenly do that if he was all through the night with him? And, I don't get why in the first place Michael should have been sleeping so long after 10 o'clock because the chef said the doctor used to get Michael's juice for him around that time.
 
Topflux said:
Don't you think there is something terribly wrong with the timeline? I don't understand why he did use phone hardly at all before 10:30 and then suddenly in two hours he used it like almost 90 minutes..? I mean it just doesn't add up with how Michael should have been all the time? Or does that mean he was with Michael up til that 10:30, then continued treating him but somehow suddenly neglected him? I just don't understand. Why would he suddenly do that if he was all through the night with him? And, I don't get why in the first place Michael should have been sleeping so long after 10 o'clock because the chef said the doctor used to get Michael's juice for him around that time.
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yes- I agree - the timeline is w e i r d !! :bugeyed :no:
 
Vici said:
yeah but even if MJ had passed away and Murray for some reason didnt noticed it until it was too late (around noon as he claims), it still suspicious to why he never came downstairs to get the juice for MJ at 10am. What was Murray really doing around the time when MJ used to have his breakfast and juice? We know he was talking away on his phone, but still so many pieces missing..

Plus if Travis Payne (Randy Phillips?) were on his way.. why was MJ still in bed. The security or at least MJs assistant must have known Travis was on his way. I wish these things are also brought up.
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Mike got some morning routine, the juice, the breakfast with children or meeting the children...

They need to look more into that routine, and compare with what happened on 25 June morning.



I also think Murray is not stupid, he is pretending to be. He is performing an act. Fans should concentrate on to debuncking that and not call that guy stupid, cause he is not.


- former patients praised Murray

- he was not a doctor at the start of career, quite contrary


- to get to be Mike doctor he might got a good solid CV also he might convinced Mike that he knows how to deal with equipment and crisis situations. Including modern resuscitation methods.

Should we believe that any doctor can reach Mike door and become his doctor?? Without some solid credentials and good referring?
 
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can you please explain the difference between injection and infusion? thanks
 
Vici said:
One question guys. Since there were no monitoring equipments in the room, what was Dr Murderrays plan to see if MJ was ok or not? Was his plan simply just to stare at Mike the entire time he was being put under to see if he was breathing?
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Very good point!

Was it even his plan to see if Michael was OK???
 
Justthefacts said:
But here is the thing none of these doctors will admit to feeding an addiction. Klein is a fool but he along with the rest of these doctors were never charged with given Michael anything he did not need. As long as they say they were treating Michael for this and that and have records to back it up Murray can't even began to say they were feeding an addiction
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u notice etok's name on there. thats the crazy woman who claimed mj asked her to have his 4th baby.
 
is klein going to testify? one thing he can say to help mj is what he said on twitter - that there is no way mj could ever inject himself cause he was needle phobic.
 
the defence is desperate if klien is prepaired to sell mj out under oath rather than just in the tabloids then u can be sure the defence wil call him. even though he has no credibility and has impeached himself. look at 03-05 with all the ex employees its the same thing.aslong as the pros have done their research they will jsut show klien and anyone else up

So that leaves Farschian as a wildcard/whatever.
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hes the dr that treated mj for the spider bite in 02. he has a big practice in miami. has mj even had any contact with him for years?

seems to me the defence are just listing all mjs drs in order of when they worked for him based on tabloid reports (etok for example)
 
GinnyJackson said:
This is what i think they are talking about. A CPR Oxygen Resuscitator Mask Bag this is the one i have

You attach the ambubag to the slot there and you pump it with your hand. it helps the person breath
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I think it was far too late for that one at the hospital. I'm leaning toward them using the intra-aortic balloon pump as a last attempt to get his heart going.

StacyJ said:
what was so interesting about it? Is LaToya just as heartbroken as we are?
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Are you kidding?

BTW I heard one family member, I think La Toya, was staring out Murray, giving him the dead-eyes in court.
 
ScrEAm.Jack5on said:
is klein going to testify? one thing he can say to help mj is what he said on twitter - that there is no way mj could ever inject himself cause he was needle phobic.
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To that the defense can say he didn't have to sting himself since he had an IV installed in his body.

Honestly, I don't think Klein would be a good witness for the prosecution. On cross the defense would ask him about his comments about MJ being a drug addict....
 
rita.gibson said:
"This is the first time I've given mouth to mouth but I 'HAD' to do it because he's my friend. This sentence alone is manic for a doctor, if someone had a heart attack in the street he wouldn't give mouth to mouth because he didn't know them, Did he or did he not take an oath to preserve life?:bugeyed
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I was on the Justice4MJ Ustream, and someone also questioned this. The answer was that it was Alberto Alvarez who said he had not done it before (CPR I assumed). So we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions by badly worded reports. At this point I'm not sure who said it!!
 
elusive moonwalker said:
the defence is desperate if klien is prepaired to sell mj out under oath rather than just in the tabloids then u can be sure the defence wil call him. even though he has no credibility and has impeached himself. look at 03-05 with all the ex employees its the same thing.aslong as the pros have done their research they will jsut show klien and anyone else up
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Hi, imagine what would Klein say ??? That he gave demerol to MJ for cosmetic procedures , knowing MJ was an addict ???? He would be incriminating himself, that would be funny ! And if the defense gets his info from tabloids, well then good luck. Some of them have a never ending imagination, that should keep Chernoff busy for quite some time.

If the defense call Klein, then yes I agree with you : they are desperate !

The addict thing won't help them IMO, could even make things worse for them.

Given the coroners report, there is no indication MJ was doctor shopping, he seemed to take LESS medication than prescribed, he was careful with it.
He might have had problems in the past, but the way I see it, he was careful not to go down that way again.

I think even the idea of propofol, if he ever really asked for it, can be understood that way : not addictive, doesn't leave you like a zombie all day, and safe if done correctly. IF this true that he was asking for it, then it's definitely not a great idea, and he should never have found a doctor who would do it, but I can understand it from MJ's point of view as " I need to deal with insomnia, I have a tour, it's going to be hard, I don't want to take strong drugs that eventually will get me dependant and won't work anymore, let's see if propofol can help". the opposite of an addict.
 
JMie said:
can you please explain the difference between injection and infusion? thanks
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When you inject someone, you're giving them a substance by instrumental means. An infusion is merely combining that substance with another, sometimes by way of injection.
 
After all this accounts, it is really very, very difficult to believe CM had any serious intentions to save Michael Jackson. Seriously. There is no single evidence (so far) that he did his best. He did his worst. And even on doing his worst, he did even worst.
 
Soundmind said:
Just in case any one has any doubt the defence will portray MJ as a junkie , this pic is for you and it's also dedicated to Janet, Randy, Katherine, Joe and Rebbie Jackson and their supporters 'enjoy' your good work :clapping:


S002211485.jpg




In the war room of the defense team representing Dr. Conrad Murray, boxes and notebooks are filled with discoveries provided by Los Angeles prosecutors, and a dry erase board lists other doctors from around the world who also treated the pop star. (Photo by Michael Cary/CNN)
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Congratulations to the Jackson family.
 
summer said:
Yeah...that's maybe if it is YOUR family member...or if you are calling someone who is somehow INVOLVED in the situation....But to call someone who in NO WAY is involved and has NOTHING to do with MJ....it is extremely ODD that a doctor would call his GIRLFRIEND while his patient is DYING IN FRONT OF HIM...instead of COMPLETELY concentrating on the PATIENT and thinking of ways to SAVE THE PATIENT'S life!!! :doh::doh::doh: ....Michael was in there INTUBATED....in CARDIAC ARREST....fighting for his LIFE!!
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You wonder how he could make a phone call, when his patient ("friend") is dying in front of him? Well, that's just it. Michael WASN'T dying or fighting for his life at that point. He was already long gone. And Murray damn well knew that, no matter what he says. Therefore he wasn't trying to think of ways to save him. He knew Michael could not be saved. :(
Regardless, I can't believe he called his gf, he's disgusting. What an *ss.

And, IMO, Murray wasn't trying to save MJ at any point anyway. With everything we've heard so far, I don't see any sign of him having had any concern over Michael's life. None what so ever. He cared more about making phone calls than making sure his "friend" stays alive.

mthalen said:
Maybe Randy wanted to make sure MJ went to the rehearsals. Seeing how he missed a few and they were in the last week or so of rehearsals?
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I hate to think that people would go to Michael's house just to make sure he wouldn't miss rehearsals. Talk about putting pressure on him.. As if he didn't already have enough on his plate :no:

summer said:
And if you're talking about the condom catheter..well, I can only speculate and say maybe that's why MJ's penis was out of his underwear and visible...if he had a catheter there is no need for his penis to be visible. So maybe Murray HAD tried to yank it off but it didn't come off, but only pulled MJ's penis out of his underwear and maybe that's when Alberto came in so he had to start pretending he's doing CPR...on the bed...with one hand. Again, WHO KNOWS....I can only speculate.
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I didn't even think of that, but it could be true... Oh man, I feel sick by all of this.

Topflux said:
Don't you think there is something terribly wrong with the timeline? I don't understand why he did use phone hardly at all before 10:30 and then suddenly in two hours he used it like almost 90 minutes..? I mean it just doesn't add up with how Michael should have been all the time? Or does that mean he was with Michael up til that 10:30, then continued treating him but somehow suddenly neglected him? I just don't understand. Why would he suddenly do that if he was all through the night with him? And, I don't get why in the first place Michael should have been sleeping so long after 10 o'clock because the chef said the doctor used to get Michael's juice for him around that time.
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Yes, it's all very odd to say the least. I've stopped trying to make sense of Murray's doings. 'Cause none of it makes sense.

Tipareth said:
I also think Murray is not stupid, he is pretending to be. He is performing an act. Fans should concentrate on to debuncking that and not call that guy stupid, cause he is not.


- former patients praised Murray

- he was not a doctor at the start of career, quite contrary


- to get to be Mike doctor he might got a good solid CV also he might convinced Mike that he knows how to deal with equipment and crisis situations. Including modern resuscitation methods.

Should we believe that any doctor can reach Mike door and become his doctor?? Without some solid credentials and good referring?
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You raise some good points. But no matter how I twist everything I always come back to the same conclusion; he is unbelieveably stupid. No way around it.
 
All those drugs Murray gave Michael before the propofol would have put MJ in a state of confusion, maybe to the point of hallucination, no one can tell me that Murray didn't know he was harming Michael but still he gave him propofol on top of it, thats murder in the first degree and he knows it hence the hiding of evidence.
 
StacyJ said:
does the hearing continue today?
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i asked the same question a couple of pages back,the only way i found out was from mjjcommunitys twitter a tweet posted a few hours ago saying the following.

Dan Myers' testimony will continue today keep tuned to MJJC for a minute by minute update of week one, MJJC the worlds leader.


so i take it there is one today and i,m guessing at the same time roughly it has started all week,

i had to go offline last night when the court took lunch break,so i missed anything regarding today,

couldn,t find a thread relating to today so that why i myself wondered if there was a hearing or not today,
 
man.in.the.mirror said:
i asked the same question a couple of pages back,the only way i found out was from mjjcommunitys twitter a tweet posted a few hours ago saying the following.

Dan Myers' testimony will continue today keep tuned to MJJC for a minute by minute update of week one, MJJC the worlds leader.


so i take it there is one today and i,m guessing at the same time roughly it has started all week,

i had to go offline last night when the court took lunch break,so i missed anything regarding today,

couldn,t find a thread relating to today so that why i myself wondered if there was a hearing or not today,
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thank you!
 
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