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The Great Debate - Poll of Polls

Do I believe It Is Michael On The Three Tracks In Question.

  • Yes

    Votes: 152 39.6%

  • No

    Votes: 135 35.2%

  • I Can Not Decide

    Votes: 24 6.3%

  • Maybe in Parts

    Votes: 73 19.0%
  • Total voters
    384
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I don't trust the Cascio's as far as I can throw them. Why didn't they mention the prescriptions made out in Eddie's name on Oprah? She was desperate to talk about drugs. Why didn't she ask that?

And how did Friedman hear those tracks in 2006 if the were written in 2007? Were they leaking info to him?

And why did they register these songs only after Michael passed away? If everything was legitimate? Why not register them when he was alive?

Their whole story stinks to high heaven. The fact that Friedman has supported them and pleaded the case for their bogus songs should give everyone a reason to doubt them.

Either way, most importantly, the songs sound nothing like Michael Jackson.
 
They were still a work in progress, I think they knew as long as Michael was with us, he wouldn't of wanted the songs released in that form. But after he passed, it's possible they felt they were songs that should be heard and be a representation of his never-ending inspiration. Registering them merely a few days later, is the only thing I find questionable.
 
I voted that it is Michael on the tracks, but I don't completely agree with how this whole situation has been handled. Sony should make sure the fans are satisfied with this release and Michael is respected.

For one, I don't think Teddy Riley and the Cascio's would lie about recording these songs. It's always possible, anything is possible, but I have watched them and I think they are sincere. They seem heartbroken over Michael's passing so I don't think they're out to make money off of him.

Second, I said this earlier, but Malachi hasn't written anything nearly as good as Michael. Don't Walk Away, Critical, A Hero Fell, Let Me Let Go, they all fall far far below Michael Jackson's standards.

The three tracks being questioned, or four, are all far superior to anything I've heard from Jason Malachi. One could argue this is because they had a songwriting team, but I think it's most likely Michael.

-

I think that they need to release a making of sort of thing. Most artists do something like that these days... it can't be that hard, and for Michael Jackson? Why weren't any notes found for these songs? Something, and I would think someone had a camera during the months that this album was being worked on?

I just think we need some answers because it's painful to see this kind of discussion and I feel offended when people make fun of these songs when I feel in my heart it's probably Michael.
 
The fact that none of them sound anything like Michael Jackson is what I find most questionable.
 
OK;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuyWdFS4Hfs


Listen to JM @ 1:51 sing the word "Life" how his voice vibrates. Now go and listen to KYHU when the alleged "Michael" sing the same world... Do you still think it's MJ singing...?

Ok, Yesterday I took the two samples to one of my collage professors from the electrical engineering faculty (my faculty), who is an expert in voice recognition.. we did a quick analysis using Matlab (powerful mathematical and signal analysis tool). Both "Michael" singing "Life" from KYHU, and JM from Critical, ended up having a perfectly identical curves of spectral and average pitch analysis!!! Unfortunately I still cannot post any attachments here to show you the results graph.. The professor said to me that it is very unlikely for two different people to have identical voice characteristics that cannot be determined mathematically...
 
TheMan1998 said:
OK;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuyWdFS4Hfs


Listen to JM @ 1:51 sing the word "Life" how his voice vibrates. Now go and listen to KYHU when the alleged "Michael" sing the same world... Do you still think it's MJ singing...?
Click to expand...

Yes, because the "Life" I hear at 0:50 in KYHU, still doesn't sound very similar to your example. Of course, this is just my opinion.
 
^^^

The cascio tracks are slightly pitched up.
 
Yes, it's MJ. I listen to the album and, beyond all the things was said, I think is Michael. Don't matter what the Cascios or the Jacksons said.
 
Don't you think, if it wasn't Michael, that they would have told the imposter something like, "Hey could you end that a little clearer so that it's not so shaky?"

You think that the person wouldn't leave evidence all over the place that it isn't really Michael.

No, I think it's just Michael after a long absence from a traditional recording environment, a long vacation, tons of upheaval in his life, and where he wasn't expecting this to be the final product. A lot of processing has also been done to make it fit for the record. That seems like the most probable to me.

It doesn't make sense that they'd let Malachi or whoever get away with recording vocal tracks like that. It's obviously some sort of effect or just Michael's voice.
 
samhabib said:
I don't trust the Cascio's as far as I can throw them. Why didn't they mention the prescriptions made out in Eddie's name on Oprah? She was desperate to talk about drugs. Why didn't she ask that?
Click to expand...

sorry but are you now hating them because they didn't paint MJ as an person scoring medicine in other person's names? I don't know how you define a friendship but I personally wouldn't air my dead friend's business on a national TV show.

AnnieRUOkay89 said:
They were still a work in progress, I think they knew as long as Michael was with us, he wouldn't of wanted the songs released in that form. But after he passed, it's possible they felt they were songs that should be heard and be a representation of his never-ending inspiration. Registering them merely a few days later, is the only thing I find questionable.
Click to expand...

Think like this. What is the benefit of copyrighting a song?

Now actually a song (a book, a screenplay etc) is automatically copyrighted the minute it's created. If you wrote a song, it's your song, you automatically own the copyright for it. But the main issue is how can you prove that you are the one that wrote that song if needed?

For example assume that you wrote a song and I stole it. How can you prove that you wrote it?

As you can see copyright registration is mainly done for "proof of authorship/ownership". You are basically saying to a 3rd party (copyright offices) "here's the song I wrote and here's the proof". (There's also the poor man's copyright - in which you can mail the song you write to yourself and keep the envelope sealed - the date the post office puts on the envelope serves as the 3rd party verification of the creation)

Now when Michael was alive Cascio (and Porte) could have thought if Michael ever uses this song he would give me the necessary credit. But the conditions changed when Michael died. They didn't know who would become the executors etc. I mean if Michael had the copies of the songs and somebody (an executor, a music company executive etc) found those songs and registered them in solely Michael's name, Cascio's couldn't even argue that they participated in the creation of those songs. So why wouldn't they register them if their friend that they trusted has died and they didn't know who would handle things and whether those people will be trustworthy or not and wanted to protect themselves?

side note: there are also some songs that Brad Buxter has registered after Michael's death. I mean again when Michael was alive he might have trusted Michael but when he died and the estate executors started to call people to turn in what songs they might have , he could simply go and register them to protect his rights.

plus: I wouldn't read to much into the "merely few days later registration". I mean Jackson's lawyers had a request in by Friday night saying that Michael died intestate and by Monday morning Katherine had been named the temporary executor.
 
TheMan1998 said:
OK;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuyWdFS4Hfs


Listen to JM @ 1:51 sing the word "Life" how his voice vibrates. Now go and listen to KYHU when the alleged "Michael" sing the same world... Do you still think it's MJ singing...?

Ok, Yesterday I took the two samples to one of my collage professors from the electrical engineering faculty (my faculty), who is an expert in voice recognition.. we did a quick analysis using Matlab (powerful mathematical and signal analysis tool). Both "Michael" singing "Life" from KYHU, and JM from Critical, ended up having a perfectly identical curves of spectral and average pitch analysis!!! Unfortunately I still cannot post any attachments here to show you the results graph.. The professor said to me that it is very unlikely for two different people to have identical voice characteristics that cannot be determined mathematically...
Click to expand...

Do you think you could perform the same tests, but this time, between one of Michael's and JM's songs, and between two of Michael's songs, so that we can better tell the difference (or similarities) between their voice characteristics?

And another thing, was your analysis of the tracks designed for speech recognition or singing voice identification?

When you do get the chance, pictures of the resulting graphs (including explanations) would be greatly appreciated.
 
TheMan1998 said:
Ok, Yesterday I took the two samples to one of my collage professors from the electrical engineering faculty (my faculty), who is an expert in voice recognition.. we did a quick analysis using Matlab (powerful mathematical and signal analysis tool). Both "Michael" singing "Life" from KYHU, and JM from Critical, ended up having a perfectly identical curves of spectral and average pitch analysis!!! Unfortunately I still cannot post any attachments here to show you the results graph.. The professor said to me that it is very unlikely for two different people to have identical voice characteristics that cannot be determined mathematically...
Click to expand...

wolfrevenant said:
Do you think you could perform the same tests, but this time, between one of Michael's and JM's songs, and between two of Michael's songs, so that we can better tell the difference (or similarities) between their voice characteristics?

And another thing, was your analysis of the tracks designed for speech recognition or singing voice identification?

When you do get the chance, pictures of the resulting graphs (including explanations) would be greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...

I used Matlab in statistic classes. It's more a statistical/mathematic tool. I think it has signal analysis and speech recognition and comparison - not singing. It's generally used to compare/recognize simpler single words based on frequency. It's a good mathematical tool however I think it's limited to be voice comparison tool. (My experience with Matlab is limited in this regard but one of my friends had written an algorithm to recognize his voice saying his name. It needed several recordings of the same thing to determine the average voice frequency and if you intentionally change your voice it wouldn't recognize it)


edit found this

This will be challenging coz of the highly variant nature of input speech signals.Speech signals can be greatly different due to many facts such as people voice change with time, health conditions (e.g. the speaker has a cold), speaking rates, etc.Also variations in recording environments plays a major role.
 
What I wonder is, who made the decision to include these dubious songs on the album (whether one believes the vocals are MJ or not,) and why.

Twilight Zone.

(I find the vocals sound like Malachi.)
 
ivy said:
where did I say that?

I said in the live performance videos there's one line that sounds similar, his previous songs that thought to be MJ songs were never convincing for me and that JM is way overrated.

and let me add this - what about JM doesn't make sense

for me his vocals were never convincing, for you he has a goat vibrato - in other words we actually agree that he's not really good in impersonating Michael. some people (including you) claim they can hear and distinguish JM from a mile away - all good.

then the question becomes if the idea was to fake vocals why use JM. why use someone that's not that good and that people can identify? It's not like he's the only one out there. To me that doesn't make sense really. On one hand people argue that Sony is this evil corporation that can fake whatever they want but at the same time this theory needs us to believe that they suck at what they set out to do.
Click to expand...

Well if they were stupid enough to do this in the first place....then they are certainly stupid enough to use the most well known impersonator out there.

Its not just one line that sounds like him. On that clip of him in a room singing 'Dont Walk Away'. To me everything sounds very very close to the Cascio tracks......
 
ivy said:
I used Matlab in statistic classes. It's more a statistical/mathematic tool. I think it has signal analysis and speech recognition and comparison - not singing. It's generally used to compare/recognize simpler single words based on frequency. It's a good mathematical tool however I think it's limited to be voice comparison tool. (My experience with Matlab is limited in this regard but one of my friends had written an algorithm to recognize his voice saying his name. It needed several recordings of the same thing to determine the average voice frequency and if you intentionally change your voice it wouldn't recognize it)


edit found this

This will be challenging coz of the highly variant nature of input speech signals.Speech signals can be greatly different due to many facts such as people voice change with time, health conditions (e.g. the speaker has a cold), speaking rates, etc.Also variations in recording environments plays a major role.
Click to expand...

Indeed, speech recognition and singing voice identification is not the same, due to productions and perceptions. Though, if acapellas are used, it could deal with one of the differences between the two indentification methods, that is, a non-vocal and vocal environment v.s a purely vocal environment.

Nonetheless, a single comparison like that is probably not enough. From what I've read, in terms of singer identification, they normally try to construct a model out of the singer's voice by performing a cross-validation of several samples of melodies from the same singer. This is known as "training" a model. After which, they test this newly-trained model on other singers and other songs of the same singer, thus, determining the error rate of this model.

Once this model proves satisfying enough (based on the error rate), it can be used to identify the vocals on the tracks in question. Of course, this is just my basic understanding on singer identification, and this is just one of the possible methods of it. Do note that there is an initial step of non-vocal and vocal seperation, assuming the analysis is being performed on a finished product that one can readily pick up from the store.

Another method I've heard of singer identification, is through vibrato analysis. Some of the vibrato features that are taken into consideration are 1) regularity/irregularity of vibrato excursion, 2) the type of vibrato (bleat or wobble?), and 3) vibrato rate.

So yes, overall, singer identification also uses a very mathematical and statistical approach. The difference, as far as I can tell (I haven't researched on speech recognition yet), is that singerID has an additional step of non-vocal and vocal seperation, and they may adopt a different model, as compared to speech recognition. For the vibrato analysis though, the article I read, uses possibly the same model as speech recognition, that is, the HMM (Hidden Markov Model).

Perhaps, that is where we should start? With vibrato analysis?
 
eighthnoterojo said:
What I wonder is, who made the decision to include these dubious songs on the album (whether one believes the vocals are MJ or not,) and why.

Twilight Zone.

(I find the vocals sound like Malachi.)
Click to expand...



In all likelihood it'd be Sony/Estate who decides on the tracklist. So they put these songs on these album, as for why? It's quite obvious they felt the songs would garner some appeal amongst today's musical audience and felt it'd be a hit and rake in revenue.


Not to mention they wanted this album to be a better representation of Michael's recent work.
 
samhabib said:
Man this is absolutely hilarious! Here is 'Michael Jackson's' other unreleased work! Hilarious!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNn9F7vmQa0
Click to expand...


It is the first time I hear this song. I am astonished! As unbiased as I try to remain (despite what I believe), this voice is exactly the same as the voice on Breaking News and Monster!

At times it sounds extremely similar to MJ's voice, but not once I can hear MJ's voice here. The same goes for Monster and Breaking News.

Two big common points are striking here: voice timbre and the intonation! Both these points can be found on Monster and Breaking News. I am not a musician, but I am a linguist, and I am extremely sensitive to intonations and accents. You can take my word for it. I have no interest whatsoever to make this up or to lie.
 
wolfrevenant said:
Indeed, speech recognition and singing voice identification is not the same, due to productions and perceptions. Though, if acapellas are used, it could deal with one of the differences between the two indentification methods, that is, a non-vocal and vocal environment v.s a purely vocal environment.

Nonetheless, a single comparison like that is probably not enough. From what I've read, in terms of singer identification, they normally try to construct a model out of the singer's voice by performing a cross-validation of several samples of melodies from the same singer. This is known as "training" a model. After which, they test this newly-trained model on other singers and other songs of the same singer, thus, determining the error rate of this model.

Once this model proves satisfying enough (based on the error rate), it can be used to identify the vocals on the tracks in question. Of course, this is just my basic understanding on singer identification, and this is just one of the possible methods of it. Do note that there is an initial step of non-vocal and vocal seperation, assuming the analysis is being performed on a finished product that one can readily pick up from the store.

Another method I've heard of singer identification, is through vibrato analysis. Some of the vibrato features that are taken into consideration are 1) regularity/irregularity of vibrato excursion, 2) the type of vibrato (bleat or wobble?), and 3) vibrato rate.

So yes, overall, singer identification also uses a very mathematical and statistical approach. The difference, as far as I can tell (I haven't researched on speech recognition yet), is that singerID has an additional step of non-vocal and vocal seperation, and they may adopt a different model, as compared to speech recognition. For the vibrato analysis though, the article I read, uses possibly the same model as speech recognition, that is, the HMM (Hidden Markov Model).
Click to expand...

Amazing!
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
It is the first time I hear this song. I am astonished! As unbiased as I try to remain (despite what I believe), this voice is exactly the same as the voice on Breaking News and Monster!

At times it sounds extremely similar to MJ's voice, but not once I can hear MJ's voice here. The same goes for Monster and Breaking News.

Two big common points are striking here: voice timbre and the intonation! Both these points can be found on Monster and Breaking News. I am not a musician, but I am a linguist, and I am extremely sensitive to intonations and accents. You can take my word for it. I have no interest whatsoever to make this up or to lie.
Click to expand...



I agree that there are moments it sounds rather similar. But that's maybe obvious, Malachi is an MJ voice impersonator after all, isn't he?
Especially the processed vibrato's are more or less alike.
But this song, this voice, lacks a "feeling" that I have with the voice I'm listening to in Monster and Breaking News. Also, in BN and Monster I hear a more nasal voice.
Anyone knows when this track was recorded?
 
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