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Theories : What do you think happened based on testimony

ivy

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This thread is to discuss our theories of "what really happened" based on the testimony we heard during the preliminary hearing.

Remember this is "based on testimony" and conspiracy isn't allowed.
 
I'm stuck in chapter one when Murray decides monitoring equipment

to be optional.
 
Not ready to post a theory yet, particularly because we never heard from Murray. Here is my response to the closing arguments (drafts) of the defense, though.
------------------------------
Closing statements

Murray's lawyers arguments

- We have never heard the time of death, if we knew the time of death we can find out who is involved.

Why would the defense "have to hear" the time of death? The person who would know best would be their client. Did they ASK him? Would not speaking to one's client and constructing a time-line be the obvious thing to do? Why didn't they? Or, is Murray so difficult he tells his attorneys NOTHING?

We have heard varying accounts of Murray's actions (and inactions), and they do not match -- from what he did NOT tell EMTs (that he gave propofol at all), to what he was doing during that critical period. We still have no idea what Murray's side of the story IS, about what really happened on that day. There has been the story of "I was in the bathroom for two minutes," which makes no sense because CPR could have been initiated and EMTs called. Now, there is the "I was on the phone and didn't know my patient had expired" story. I find that not to be plausible. I think those calls were made to cover his tracks, not just idle conversations.

What the hell do they mean, "We can find out who is involved????" It is Murray who will go on trial, and if they intend to accuse someone else (in addition/instead of Michael, himself), there is no hint of who that would be. Surely they are not going to accuse Alberto Alvarez, the body-guard who came to the room? There is no indication of any culpability there.

So one THEORY would be, that the goal of the defense was only to secure the Involuntary Manslaughter charge, knowing that there would be a trial. But not to present a cogent defense in advance of the trial. Either because they have no cogent defense at all, or there is some critical piece of information they will reveal at the trial? So far, it's almost impossible to formulate a theory, because Murray has revealed next-to-nothing. So perhaps what really happened is NONE of the above, and something entirely different? With no hint of what that would be?

- Murray saw MJ everyday for 3 months, he would know how MJ interacted with these drugs better than the other doctors.

Of course, medications can react somewhat differently in different people, but there are also drug INTERACTIONS, that Murray should have known well. So is this a challenge to the expert testimony? If so, it shows Murray as being very arrogant, and "he knows better."

- We heard from an anethesiologist what he would use as a standard of care. We didn’t hear from a cardiologist in a similar situation and training.

This is ABSURD! There IS no cardiologist who would have been in a similar situation! Giving a general anesthetic is unheard of, in a home setting, with no other staff or rescue equipment. That is a very weak statement, and actually ridiculous.

- Murray injected around 10:40 so if Dr. Murray was away from MJ, how could he have given another dose of propofol? so what was going on between 11 am and 12 am? That goes to show you right there that Dr. Murry could not have given that dose, he was on the phone.

So a defense is that Murray was on the PHONE while his patient was unconscious with a general anesthesia that Murray GAVE him? Incredible. And that the patient woke up and somehow managed to give the dose himself? That is not credible, for very many reasons. If he's trying to imply that someone ELSE gave the fatal dose, no evidence has been presented that would suggest it was not Murray, or Michael.

So, is Murray just a very chatty person, or were all those calls made to cover his tracks after Michael had died? Where WAS Murray when Michael died? In another room, for so long that when he came back and found Michael dead, he knew there was no hope of recovery?

Did we hear about the call to Murray's attorney? I don't mean the content, but the fact that there was a call to an attorney, and the timing of that? It would have been an "I'm in deep !@#*! kind of call, if he realized his patient had died.

What all this leads to is that it may be something entirely different from the various NON-stories given by the defense. And, we have no way of knowing what that is!

It's maddening, but one form of defense is to say little or nothing at all, which is what seems to be happening.
 
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Autumn II;3188253 said:
Not ready to post a theory yet, particularly because we never heard from Murray. Here is my response to the closing arguments (drafts) of the defense, though.
------------------------------
Closing statements

Murray's lawyers arguments

- We have never heard the time of death, if we knew the time of death we can find out who is involved.

Why would the defense "have to hear" the time of death? The person who would know best would be their client. Did they ASK him? Would not speaking to one's client and constructing a time-line be the obvious thing to do? Why didn't they? Or, is Murray so difficult he tells his attorneys NOTHING?

We have heard varying accounts of Murray's actions (and inactions), and they do not match -- from what he did NOT tell EMTs (that he gave propofol at all), to what he was doing during that critical period. We still have no idea what Murray's side of the story IS, about what really happened on that day. There has been the story of "I was in the bathroom for two minutes," which makes no sense because CPR could have been initiated and EMTs called. Now, there is the "I was on the phone and didn't know my patient had expired" story. I find that not to be plausible. I think those calls were made to cover his tracks, not just idle conversations.

What the hell do they mean, "We can find out who is involved????" It is Murray who will go on trial, and if they intend to accuse someone else (in addition/instead of Michael, himself), there is no hint of who that would be. Surely they are not going to accuse Alberto Alvarez, the body-guard who came to the room? There is no indication of any culpability there.

So one THEORY would be, that the goal of the defense was only to secure the Involuntary Manslaughter charge, knowing that there would be a trial. But not to present a cogent defense in advance of the trial. Either because they have no cogent defense at all, or there is some critical piece of information they will reveal at the trial? So far, it's almost impossible to formulate a theory, because Murray has revealed next-to-nothing. So perhaps what really happened is NONE of the above, and something entirely different? With no hint of what that would be?

- Murray saw MJ everyday for 3 months, he would know how MJ interacted with these drugs better than the other doctors.

Of course, medications can react somewhat differently in different people, but there are also drug INTERACTIONS, that Murray should have known well. So is this a challenge to the expert testimony? If so, it shows Murray as being very arrogant, and "he knows better."

- We heard from an anethesiologist what he would use as a standard of care. We didn’t hear from a cardiologist in a similar situation and training.

This is ABSURD! There IS no cardiologist who would have been in a similar situation! Giving a general anesthetic is unheard of, in a home setting, with no other staff or rescue equipment. That is a very weak statement, and actually ridiculous.

- Murray injected around 10:40 so if Dr. Murray was away from MJ, how could he have given another dose of propofol? so what was going on between 11 am and 12 am? That goes to show you right there that Dr. Murry could not have given that dose, he was on the phone.

So a defense is that Murray was on the PHONE while his patient was unconscious with a general anesthesia that Murray GAVE him? Incredible. And that the patient woke up and somehow managed to give the dose himself? That is not credible, for very many reasons. If he's trying to imply that someone ELSE gave the fatal dose, no evidence has been presented that would suggest it was not Murray, or Michael.

So, is Murray just a very chatty person, or were all those calls made to cover his tracks after Michael had died? Where WAS Murray when Michael died? In another room, for so long that when he came back and found Michael dead, he knew there was no hope of recovery?

Did we hear about the call to Murray's attorney? I don't mean the content, but the fact that there was a call to an attorney, and the timing of that? It would have been an "I'm in deep !@#*! kind of call, if he realized his patient had died.

What all this leads to is that it may be something entirely different from the various NON-stories given by the defense. And, we have no way of knowing what that is!

It's maddening, but one form of defense is to say little or nothing at all, which is what seems to be happening.
Click to expand...
:victory::Dlets go:yes::yes:
 
After hearing the prosecutions case it would not surprise me at all if Murray gave a plea bargain for the least possible sentence. Seems there is no other way out for him unless he has some bombshell he is keeping close to his chest, can't see that somehow. This needs to go to trial for me to see if we can discover the whole truth.
 
I don't want to get into conspiracy, but I really believe this was intentional. How could anyone be that stupid or careless? I think they planned it good.
 
I can't really offer a step by step theory on what happened yet as obviously we haven't heard everything yet. My outline would be that I think there was medical negligence on Murray's part which resulted in Michael's death (involuntary manslaughter). I do not think Murray murdered Michael though but that doesn't mean I think it is ok to behave in a negligent manner when in a trusted medical position.
 
I have a hard time believing that a cardiologist with years of experiene could be so incompetent, to the extent where he appeared not to no how to do CPR. Given that AEG stood to take the music catalogue from Michael if he failed to complete the concerts, to my mind you have a motive right there for making sure Michael defaulted on the contract, not by killing him but by debilitating him to the extent that he could not perform, to show him as an addict who could never get insurance for a concert tour, and by destroying his fan base (yeah right!) or trying to by having disappointed and out of pocket fans. Why would you give that drugs for weeks on end before worrying about an addiction developing. Michael was vulnerable and naive, I don't think propofol was forced on him initially but I think he obviously trusted Murrey, and felt safe with him, on the fatal day, was he really able to consent to anything, given the amount of sedation he was given, and he was not a regular user and certainly not addicted to them to have built up a tolerance.

There will always be question marks and I still say we might one day find Murrey suddenly has a huge amount of money, a payoff and having already been tried and I believe convicted with a year or maybe two in jail he is set up with a life of luxury for his actions on behalf of whoever paid him to do this.
 
Murray wanted the job, Michael wanted to sleep.
Murray needed to get Michael to sleep to keep the job.
Propofol was guaranteed to work. Maybe Murray started off giving small doses and observing Michael closely.
Maybe after a while he got over confident, stopped watching, upped the dose.
Criminally negligent, unfit to practice ever again. (on grounds of failure to provide any kind of observation, monitoring, care, resuscitation, call for help or indeed any actions befitting a supposedly qualified and licensed medical practitioner)

He should plead 'guilty as hell', not to plea bargain but to save putting Michael's mother and children though another harrowing period of weeks, listening to the very lengthy and truly appalling testimony against him.
 
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Autumn II;3188253 said:
Not ready to post a theory yet, particularly because we never heard from Murray. Here is my response to the closing arguments (drafts) of the defense, though.
------------------------------
Closing statements

Murray's lawyers arguments

1. We have never heard the time of death, if we knew the time of death we can find out who is involved.

Why would the defense "have to hear" the time of death? The person who would know best would be their client. Did they ASK him? Would not speaking to one's client and constructing a time-line be the obvious thing to do? Why didn't they? Or, is Murray so difficult he tells his attorneys NOTHING?

We have heard varying accounts of Murray's actions (and inactions), and they do not match -- from what he did NOT tell EMTs (that he gave propofol at all), to what he was doing during that critical period. We still have no idea what Murray's side of the story IS, about what really happened on that day. There has been the story of "I was in the bathroom for two minutes," which makes no sense because CPR could have been initiated and EMTs called. Now, there is the "I was on the phone and didn't know my patient had expired" story. I find that not to be plausible. I think those calls were made to cover his tracks, not just idle conversations.

What the hell do they mean, "We can find out who is involved????" It is Murray who will go on trial, and if they intend to accuse someone else (in addition/instead of Michael, himself), there is no hint of who that would be. Surely they are not going to accuse Alberto Alvarez, the body-guard who came to the room? There is no indication of any culpability there.

So one THEORY would be, that the goal of the defense was only to secure the Involuntary Manslaughter charge, knowing that there would be a trial. But not to present a cogent defense in advance of the trial. Either because they have no cogent defense at all, or there is some critical piece of information they will reveal at the trial? So far, it's almost impossible to formulate a theory, because Murray has revealed next-to-nothing. So perhaps what really happened is NONE of the above, and something entirely different? With no hint of what that would be?

2. Murray saw MJ everyday for 3 months, he would know how MJ interacted with these drugs better than the other doctors.

Of course, medications can react somewhat differently in different people, but there are also drug INTERACTIONS, that Murray should have known well. So is this a challenge to the expert testimony? If so, it shows Murray as being very arrogant, and "he knows better."

3. We heard from an anethesiologist what he would use as a standard of care. We didn’t hear from a cardiologist in a similar situation and training.

This is ABSURD! There IS no cardiologist who would have been in a similar situation! Giving a general anesthetic is unheard of, in a home setting, with no other staff or rescue equipment. That is a very weak statement, and actually ridiculous.

4. Murray injected around 10:40 so if Dr. Murray was away from MJ, how could he have given another dose of propofol? so what was going on between 11 am and 12 am? That goes to show you right there that Dr. Murry could not have given that dose, he was on the phone.

So a defense is that Murray was on the PHONE while his patient was unconscious with a general anesthesia that Murray GAVE him? Incredible. And that the patient woke up and somehow managed to give the dose himself? That is not credible, for very many reasons. If he's trying to imply that someone ELSE gave the fatal dose, no evidence has been presented that would suggest it was not Murray, or Michael.

So, is Murray just a very chatty person, or were all those calls made to cover his tracks after Michael had died? Where WAS Murray when Michael died? In another room, for so long that when he came back and found Michael dead, he knew there was no hope of recovery?

Did we hear about the call to Murray's attorney? I don't mean the content, but the fact that there was a call to an attorney, and the timing of that? It would have been an "I'm in deep !@#*! kind of call, if he realized his patient had died.

What all this leads to is that it may be something entirely different from the various NON-stories given by the defense. And, we have no way of knowing what that is!

It's maddening, but one form of defense is to say little or nothing at all, which is what seems to be happening.
Click to expand...

I added numbers to your post so that it will be easier for me to answer without quoting everything. Hope you don't mind. :D

1. Yeah, "we need to know the time of death to know who was involved". Well, the only people there were Dr. Murray and Michael. The CAUSE OF DEATH was Propofol. Murray said he was there the WHOLE time, except for 2 minutes. Michael would not have been beyond rescuing by the time Murry came back. And if Murray was away for 2 minutes only, that would mean that someone already inside the house would have needed to stand at the door the WHOLE time, waiting for Murray to leave. The question just is....wasn't the bathroom pretty much in the room Murray and MJ were in? As in...you wouldn't leave the room through the door going to the hall way outside of the room? So even if someone would have been waiting right outside the room...how would they even be able to see that "okay...now Dr. Murray is not ight beside the bed...now I'll just go and inject MJ with Propofol"? If the cause of death was Propofol...how would it even be possible for anyone else not in the room to tell that Murray is away? So if I understood the location of the bathroom correctly, then the theory of a 3rd person coming in to inject the Propofol while Murray is away is pretty much impossible.

2. Yeah, and with "other doctors" they weren't talking about just ANY doctors..but ANESTHESIOLOGIST. And exactly, the arrogance is just absolutely amazing to me!!

3. Or if there IS another cardiologist in a similar situation...BRING HIM ON!!! Hand deliver him to the prosecutor!! I bet that cardiologist will thank Murray after he loses HIS license! :kickass: :lol: Or if that cardiologist also happens to work at the ICU and knows how to intubate, etc. and if he has all the equipment there and has a nure there to help him, then it is not a "similar situation". But again...let them bring that other cardiologist if they think it will help them. If that cardiologist will say under oath that he gives Propofol exactly the way Murray does...and his "standard of care" does not require any kind of equipment and allows the patient to be left alone....then he will be next. :cheers:

4. Did the defense really say that?! :bugeyed Are they seriously trying to say as Murray's DEFENSE that "how would Dr. Murray know what was going on between 11-12a.m....he was on the phone!". So if he does not know what was going on, then aparently he was not only on the phone but ABSENT as well, because surely he would have SEEN Michael wake up and inject himself if he was right next to MJ's bed?! :doh: But anyways, as I said...if that came from the DEFENSE lawyers....wow. :doh: They need to decide if Murray was away for 2 minutes or an hour. :smilerolleyes: It's either A or B.....decide. Either you now say that Murray was away for an hour, and we will go from there. Or stick to the 2 minutes. It's either/or. You can't have it both ways. :doh:
 
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Hilliver - thank you for your contribution. But please see the first post. Your theory is to be based on testimony given in court. And no conspiracy.

Please respect that request.
 
My theory is that I believe Michael was already dead between 9-10am.


19th June: Meeting with Kenny, Possibly when Murray realised he might not go to London.

20th or 21st June: Michael called nurse Lee and possibly realised drugs given by Murray were harming him and maybe refused anymore, hence Michael's rehersals went well on 22nd 23rd and 24th.

25th June: Michael returns home from rehersal at 1am, according to Alberto Alverez Michael was in a happy mood and in high spirits when he dropped him home.

I believe Murray on the other hand was plagued by uncertainty, mounting debts and definitly needing to keep this job.

In the hours that followed, its possible Michael asked for something to help him to relax, Murray gave a concoction of strong Benzo's which I believe would have sent Michael into a very dazed state, unable to help himself.

I think Murray felt he was being held by a limb by Michael, so he put Mike to bed and hooked him up for Propofol and in a moment of anger gave him a fatal dose.

I believe Murray may have stayed in the room with Michael but in his connived state he didn't see what had happened, so he went about as normal until such a time that he started making phone calls and only when he was on the phone to the cocktail girl did he glance at Michael, saw his eyes and mouth open and reality kicked in. I don't believe the girlfriend heard a cough, I think the phone more likely knocked something that made a sound resembling a cough.

From then on he was in state of panic to remove incriminating evidence, called Alberto and it was caos from that moment on.

I think Murray was Jealous of what Michael had and thats a motive.
 
rita.gibson said:
My theory is that I believe Michael was already dead between 9-10am.


19th June: Meeting with Kenny, Possibly when Murray realised he might not go to London.

20th or 21st June: Michael called nurse Lee and possibly realised drugs given by Murray were harming him and maybe refused anymore, hence Michael's rehersals went well on 22nd 23rd and 24th.

25th June: Michael returns home from rehersal at 1am, according to Alberto Alverez Michael was in a happy mood and in high spirits when he dropped him home.

I believe Murray on the other hand was plagued by uncertainty, mounting debts and definitly needing to keep this job.

In the hours that followed, its possible Michael asked for something to help him to relax, Murray gave a concoction of strong Benzo's which I believe would have sent Michael into a very dazed state, unable to help himself.

I think Murray felt he was being held by a limb by Michael, so he put Mike to bed and hooked him up for Propofol and in a moment of anger gave him a fatal dose.

I believe Murray may have stayed in the room with Michael but in his connived state he didn't see what had happened, so he went about as normal until such a time that he started making phone calls and only when he was on the phone to the cocktail girl did he glance at Michael, saw his eyes and mouth open and reality kicked in. I don't believe the girlfriend heard a cough, I think the phone more likely knocked something that made a sound resembling a cough.

From then on he was in state of panic to remove incriminating evidence, called Alberto and it was caos from that moment on.

I think Murray was Jealous of what Michael had and thats a motive.
Click to expand...

I've always thought this was a possibility, and you presented this theory very clearly. Didn't Murray have an arrest record for spousal abuse, i.e. interpersonal violence? Also, that meeting on the nineteenth was pretty heated, according to Kenny Ortega. Then, Michael seemed better, and the rehearsals went well. He may have, indeed, refused medications for sleep. And then, as you said, Murray could have snapped. I can't discount this possibility, but at this point, only Murray knows -- and he's not saying.
 
I think Mike knew that Propofol was needed to be administered with monitoring machines. I think he was quite medically conscious. Therefor, after reading about testimonies, I am even more sure than before that it was intentional.




Sticking only to testimonies, I am very disappointed that charges weren't raised to Second Degree murder. Based on what we've heard, this would have been obvious...

So I am getting more and more disappointed about this whole thing, and I dunno if I am gonna follow this anymore... It's kinda a lost chance and lost of personal energy. Murray would walk with few months at most, or zero jail. His medical license suspended is good thing, but he is a guy in his 50s.... so if we put things in perspective, it's not such a big deal, it's a superficial punishment.
 
I can't really speculate based on testimonies for the simple reason that the hearing got wrapped up in a haste. I think the most important facts have not yet been revealed.
So far I tend to believe that such reckless and irresponsible behavior prerequires awareness, acceptance, and therefore intent.
There's a thin line between accidentally causing the death of someone and knowing what could kill him but yet to take the risk. This line has been clearly crossed IMHO.

Based on testimonies, it looks like Murray snapped when Michael told him he can't go on with the shows. If I cast aside my theory and focus solely on Murray, I'd say that he got possessed by panic or rage and fed him with propofol. His contract was not yet signed, his practice was temporarily suspended, so all his hopes for money were tied with the O2 concerts. When he realized what he had done, his first priority was to cover up his track.
 
My following is based on the testimony so far, the autopsy results, a psych analysis as well as other things brought forward over the past year and a half.
NOTE: These series of events are MY view of the sequence of events that lead to Michael Jackson's death.

June 18th: Michael arrives at rehearsal late, and is frail and soft spoken (Actually shown on the TII special features), before going home Michael watches the TII dancers perform "Thriller" and is obviously wowed by it. Kenny then suggests that Michael return home, and he does.

June 19th: Kenny is called to Michael's temporary residence in LA for a meeting, in which he was told not to send Michael home as he was not "responsible" for Michael's health (the reason Conrad did this was because he was afraid he would be looked upon as redundant, it's clear he wanted to be the one to take care of MJ for the sake of taking care of his $$$).

June 21st: Conrad becomes worried that Michael is getting addicted to Propofol, and following rehearsal that night began weaning him off it.

June 23rd: It was obvious at this point that Michael was now in a lot of pain (He came off stage with back pains and headaches as well as feeling dizzy, these are classic signs of Opioid withdrawal) Kenny was concerned that Michael wasn't eating properly and even hand fed him chicken (Michael was a vegetarian...).

June 24th/25th: Final rehearsal, Michael's body was beginning to recover, but as we would soon see he would be in for much more, several songs were rehearsed (the Billie Jean and MITM from TII are the last performances that Michael ever did).

Murray's Timeline:
1:30 AM: Michael takes a 10mg Valium
2:00 AM: Michael still wasn't asleep and Murray gave him 2mg of Ativan via IV
3:00 AM: Michael was STILL awake so Murray gave him 2mg of Versed via IV
5:00 AM: Michael was restless and asked for his "milk" but Murray refused and gave Michael 2mg of Ativan via IV
7:30 AM: Michael was still awake and was pleading for Propofol, but once again Murray refused and gave Michael 2mg of Versed via IV
10:40 AM: Michael still awake was somehow able to convince Murray to give him Propofol, so Murray administered 25mg of Propofol diluted with Lidocaine
10:50 AM: Dr Murray leaves to goto the toilet
10:52 AM: Dr Murray returns to find Michael not breathing, so Murray quickly administers 0.2mg of the overdose reversal drug Annexate, which blocks the brain receptors that Opioids affect, reversing sedation and allowing the brain to resume consciousness, Murray attempted to move Michael off the bed to do CPR, but couldn't do so on his own, and started CPR on Michael's bed, Murray then stopped CPR and ran downstairs to get help, and then returned to continue CPR.
11:18 AM: Dr Murray begins the series of 3 calls lasting 47 minutes, it is unknown whether someone was performing CPR at this point.
12:22 PM: 911 is called and an ambulance responds to the call.
12:26 PM: Paramedics find Michael lying on the floor and said that they didn't recognize the person at all, life saving efforts begin, it is noted that Michael showed no signs of life at this point, no pulse, he was cold to the touch and his pupils were fixed and dilated (which indicated brain death), paramedics perform CPR and inject adrenaline directly into Michaels heart, they also insert a balloon pump and pump pure oxygen directly into Michael's lungs.
12:46 PM: Paramedics would usually after 20 minutes of resuscitation efforts pronounce a patient dead at the scene, but Dr Murray insisted that he be taken to the hospital to have further treatment
12:58 PM: Michael arrives at the ER along with Dr Murray, doctors continue resuscitation efforts for another hour and a half
2:46 PM: Michael is pronounced dead.

My adjusted timeline:
1:30 AM: Michael takes a 10mg Valium
2:00 AM: Michael still wasn't asleep and Murray gave him 2mg of Ativan via IV
3:00 AM: Michael was STILL awake so Murray gave him 2mg of Versed via IV
5:00 AM: Michael was restless and asked for his "milk" but Murray refused and gave Michael 2mg of Ativan via IV
7:30 AM: Michael was still awake and was pleading for Propofol, but once again Murray refused and gave Michael 2mg of Versed via IV

but heres the issue, there is an obvious hole here, as Murray stated to have given Michael 25mg of Propofol diluted with Lidocaine... but approximately 207mg (or more) were found in his system... so i can come to only 2 conclusions here and i will present them side by side.

Conclusion 1;

10:40 AM: Conrad Murray administers 35mg of Propofol (why 35? because he was up all night, he was tired and may not have measured it correctly) this would have only caused slight drowsiness and would not have caused sleep nor respiratory failure, so Dr Murray administers another 75mg, (110mg so far) Michael falls asleep.
10:50 AM: Dr Murray goes to the toilet
10:52 AM: Dr Murray returns to find Michael awake, having not given him a drip to keep him under, so Dr Murray administers 0.2mg of Annexate in order to prevent a possible overdose and administers 70mg of Propofol and puts Michael on a drip giving him 1mg of Propofol every 2 minutes.
11-11:15 AM: Michael is asleep
11:18 AM: Dr Murray leaves the bedside to make a series of calls totaling 47 minutes.
11:20-11:25 AM: with 196mg of Propofol, 50mg of Lidocaine,10mg of Valium, 4mg of Ativan, 4mg of Versed, 0.2mg of Annexate as well as 3 other prescription medications, Michael goes into respiratory failure and stops breathing.
11:20-11:30 AM: Michael Jackson's heart stops beating and is medically speaking, dead.
11:56 AM: Dr Murray finds Michael not breathing and puts his mobile phone in his pocket (while still on the line with his Girlfriend) at this point Michael has around 207mg of Propofol in his system which is at this point overkill, Dr Murray disconnects the IV, and begins CPR on Michael's bed.
12:00 PM: Dr Murray interrupts CPR to get help.
12:05 PM: Dr Murray and Alberto Alvarez arrive in Michael's room and continue CPR efforts.
***timeline from here is known***

Conclusion 2;

10:40 AM: Michael convinces Dr Murray to give him Propofol, so he administers 25mg of Propofol and then puts Michael on a drip of Propofol giving him 1mg of Propofol every minute.
10:50 AM: Michael is still awake, but he is drowsy, Dr Murray suggests meditating to get to sleep, so Michael closes his eyes, Dr Murray gets up and goes to the toilet.
10:51-10:52 AM: Michael squeezes the drip bag to speed up the process, and falls asleep while doing so.
10:52 AM: Murray returns unaware that Michael has more Propofol in his system then what he gave him (120mg+) and continues the drip at its current rate.
11:18 AM: Murray leaves the room and begins the series of phone calls that last 47 minutes Michael now has 146mg+ of Propofol in his system and he is approaching the limit.
11:42 AM: Michael stops breathing with 170mg+ Propofol in his system.
11:42-11:50 AM: Michael Jackson's heart stops beating and is clinically dead.
12:05 PM: Dr Murray finds Michael not breathing and gives him 0.2mg of Annexate to hopefully reverse sedation, thinking that this would reverse everything within a minute he goes downstairs to get help.
***timeline from here is known***

I don't mention Dr Murray being aware of the danger of his actions in both instances, because he most probably wasn't.
 
I would say larry has the most believable theory so far but this could be because it is the least biased. I am not saying anyone elses is not well thought out but larry seemed to be the only one not letting personal feelings creep in to his run down.
 
i really dont want to say :no:because its a bit confusing :yes: but you know what michael used to say "the truth will always prevale":yes: so keep your head up like the song and it will happen :yes::yes:
 
xMichellex said:
I would say larry has the most believable theory so far but this could be because it is the least biased. I am not saying anyone elses is not well thought out but larry seemed to be the only one not letting personal feelings creep in to his run down.
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Only because i am autistic and don't understand feelings, i believe in logic and fact, that's all i base it on, and as far as i'm concerned yes he saved my life through his music, but if there is any feeling i can understand from that, it's that im glad i had him through everything, especially toward the end of high school. Im glad i took a year between high school and uni, because my years break was 2009...
 
Larry, do you understand that yours is exactly the type of theory that Murray's DEFENSE will most likely use? That Michael gave the fatal dose to HIMSELF? I think he did not, and that Murray gave him a massive bolus that killed him.

Given the data on levels of medications found, it's unlikely that "squeezing the bag" would have caused the massive amount of propofol given. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but personally, I do not believe that Michael killed HIMSELF.
 
larry141094 said:
Only because i am autistic and don't understand feelings, i believe in logic and fact, that's all i base it on, and as far as i'm concerned yes he saved my life through his music, but if there is any feeling i can understand from that, it's that im glad i had him through everything, especially toward the end of high school. Im glad i took a year between high school and uni, because my years break was 2009...
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Larry, I at this point can't take anything that Murray told the police as fact. Its clear that he is a pathological liar.
 
Autumn II said:
I've always thought this was a possibility, and you presented this theory very clearly. Didn't Murray have an arrest record for spousal abuse, i.e. interpersonal violence? Also, that meeting on the nineteenth was pretty heated, according to Kenny Ortega. Then, Michael seemed better, and the rehearsals went well. He may have, indeed, refused medications for sleep. And then, as you said, Murray could have snapped. I can't discount this possibility, but at this point, only Murray knows -- and he's not saying.
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Thank you Autumn, I honestly don't know anything about spousal abuse, but I do believe the meeting with Kenny was pivotal and I really believe that Murray had a moment of madness, whether it was anger...jealousy or whatever, It was a moment that cost Michael his life.
 
rita.gibson said:
Thank you Autumn, I honestly don't know anything about spousal abuse, but I do believe the meeting with Kenny was pivotal and I really believe that Murray had a moment of madness, whether it was anger...jealousy or whatever, It was a moment that cost Michael his life.
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This relates to Kenny Ortega's testimony about the "heated discussion" involving Murray. See below (follow the link for the rest of the article):

@font-face { font-family: "Times"; }@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }a:link, span.MsoHyperlink { color: blue; text-decoration: underline; }a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { color: purple; text-decoration: underline; }p { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; } http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/MichaelJackson/story?id=8199286&page=1

While Michael Jackson's doctor Conrad Murray remains a free man after raids of his home and offices in two states, this is not the first time he's caught the attention of law enforcement.
(ABC News)


ABC News has learned that Murray was arrested on domestic violence charges in 1994 after an incident with his then-girlfriend. The doctor was tried and acquitted.
Whether he'll remain free of charges related to the June 25 death of Michael Jackson remains to be seen. Court papers have shown that the raid Tuesday on Murray's Las Vegas home and office and last week's raid at his Houston office collected evidence to be used in an investigation of possible http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/MichaelJackson/story?id=8153815&page=1
 
From Larry's post/timeline above:

"12:26 PM: Paramedics find Michael lying on the floor and said that they didn't recognize the person at all, life saving efforts begin, it is noted that Michael showed no signs of life at this point, no pulse, he was cold to the touch and his pupils were fixed and dilated (which indicated brain death), paramedics perform CPR and inject adrenaline directly into Michaels heart, they also insert a balloon pump and pump pure oxygen directly into Michael's lungs."

I just need to clarify that a balloon pump was inserted in the ER at the hospital. This procedure and the necessary equipment are not within a paramedic's realm of practice. That is something (balloon) inserted into the femoral artery and threaded into the aorta which then inflates and deflates to simulate heart muscle contraction/blood flow and run by a specialized (pump) machine.

Now if what was meant was an intubation tube was inserted through the mouth into the lungs, and someone manually "bagged" air into Michael or used a mini portable ventilator device, that would be reasonable and expected in the situation.

(Sorry, don't mean to step on anyone's toes here.)
 
Autumn II said:
This relates to Kenny Ortega's testimony about the "heated discussion" involving Murray. See below (follow the link for the rest of the article):

@font-face { font-family: "Times"; }@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }a:link, span.MsoHyperlink { color: blue; text-decoration: underline; }a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { color: purple; text-decoration: underline; }p { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; }http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/MichaelJackson/story?id=8199286&page=1

While Michael Jackson's doctor Conrad Murray remains a free man after raids of his home and offices in two states, this is not the first time he's caught the attention of law enforcement.
(ABC News)


ABC News has learned that Murray was arrested on domestic violence charges in 1994 after an incident with his then-girlfriend. The doctor was tried and acquitted.
Whether he'll remain free of charges related to the June 25 death of Michael Jackson remains to be seen. Court papers have shown that the raid Tuesday on Murray's Las Vegas home and office and last week's raid at his Houston office collected evidence to be used in an investigation of possible http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/MichaelJackson/story?id=8153815&page=1
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Thanks for all of this Autumn, so he was acquitted but it still sent a chill down my spine.
It also said authorities also obtained a suspension notice from Houston hospital, was he really suspended or does it mean something else?
 
Larry, do you understand that yours is exactly the type of theory that Murray's DEFENSE will most likely use? That Michael gave the fatal dose to HIMSELF? I think he did not, and that Murray gave him a massive bolus that killed him.
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poster has a habit of doing that. not feldman is it! lol "squeesing the abag" ? there was no IV it was done via bolus

ive always felt he injected around 11 and was to busy on the phone non stop from 11.18- 12.00 to notice and when he did notice mj was long gone and the cover up started. the only time in that timeline he wasnt on the phone was between 10.50 approx and 11.10
 
ivy said:
This thread is to discuss our theories of "what really happened" based on the testimony we heard during the preliminary hearing.

Remember this is "based on testimony" and conspiracy isn't allowed.
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My theory??? It's pretty simple. Murray started the drip at the time he says he did, then fell asleep and stayed asleep when it was time to get equipment ready to get MJ back up. It's as simple as that. That would have given the automatic drip enough time to dispense an unbelievable amount of Propofol into MJ, thereby killing him.
 
no drip was used. no diprivan in the long tube or bag
 
hilliver said:
I have a hard time believing that a cardiologist with years of experiene could be so incompetent, to the extent where he appeared not to no how to do CPR. Given that AEG stood to take the music catalogue from Michael if he failed to complete the concerts, to my mind you have a motive right there for making sure Michael defaulted on the contract, not by killing him but by debilitating him to the extent that he could not perform, to show him as an addict who could never get insurance for a concert tour, and by destroying his fan base (yeah right!) or trying to by having disappointed and out of pocket fans. Why would you give that drugs for weeks on end before worrying about an addiction developing. Michael was vulnerable and naive, I don't think propofol was forced on him initially but I think he obviously trusted Murrey, and felt safe with him, on the fatal day, was he really able to consent to anything, given the amount of sedation he was given, and he was not a regular user and certainly not addicted to them to have built up a tolerance.

There will always be question marks and I still say we might one day find Murrey suddenly has a huge amount of money, a payoff and having already been tried and I believe convicted with a year or maybe two in jail he is set up with a life of luxury for his actions on behalf of whoever paid him to do this.
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I guess my comment might fall under conspiracy, and I'm sorry, but the part in bold above is what I keep thinking about too. How stupid is he? It almost seems like he is playing the dumb-*ss card to make it believable that this was accidental you know what I mean? Which would actually make him very clever. he went to medical school, I would have to assume that he is more intelligent then what is being presented to us. It just doesn't add up.
 
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