Theories : What do you think happened based on testimony

[jilliebean]

I think the main thing that the testimony made me feel confident about is that Michael died at home and was not alive in the ambulance or the hospital. So I think either Murray intentionally killed Michael and made it look like an accident and is making himself look stupid so that it will be believable that it was an accident, OR it was an accident and by the time he found Michael, he knew that Michael was gone and that he could not save him so he went about his business trying to cover his butt. Neither one of these theories proves to me whether Michael knew about the propofol or not. I'm still not sure if I believe Michael was "addicted" to this or would want to use it as a sleep aid, but I guess we may never know some answers.

 

[CherubimII]

I think the main thing that the testimony made me feel confident about is that Michael died at home and was not alive in the ambulance or the hospital. So I think either Murray intentionally killed Michael and made it look like an accident and is making himself look stupid so that it will be believable that it was an accident, OR it was an accident and by the time he found Michael, he knew that Michael was gone and that he could not save him so he went about his business trying to cover his butt. Neither one of these theories proves to me whether Michael knew about the propofol or not. I'm still not sure if I believe Michael was "addicted" to this or would want to use it as a sleep aid, but I guess we may never know some answers.

I commend you for having a theory that does not make up excuses for Conrad Murray. :clapping:Thank you.
I believe, during the trial, Conrad Murray is going to try and drag
Michael Jackson through the mud, as he tries to save his own
murdering sorry ass.

 

[Petrarose]

Why do people who post here insist on giving credibility to
Conrad Murray, and then basing your theories around his words, when he is a known multiple liar out to save his own sorry ass?

Love this. You know you are right. We will have to see how we can fix this.

 

[Petrarose]

1.Thinking about Ortega's testimony, he said he and Michael started talking about TII in April. So why was Murray buying propofol in March already? Also according to KO the schedule was Michael working 6 hrs a day, 4 days a week. So why the need for murray to 'assist' Michael 6 nights a week. KO also says Michael missed a series of rehearsals in June. But when? Could this have any relationship with the way Michael presented on 19 June? Now we don't know the reason for him missing rehearsals but speculating here, could murray have been loading him up with benzos during that time? Just how many rehearsals did Michael miss, anyway? Do we know?

2. According to security, murray's car was already in the driveway when Michael arrived home on that last night. Yet according to the coroner's report: a Det. Smith states that Michael placed a call to murray at 0100 complaining of dehydration and inability to sleep and then murray showed up. Anyone know anything about this? I haven't seen any testimony by this Det. Smith so perhaps it turned out to be an erroneous report after all when it was investigated..

Where does the evidence lead us? Around in circles I feel:tease: since so much of it hinges on 'that man' and his many versions of events depending on who he was talking to. The evidence shows lack of proper monitoring equipment and among other things an empty oxygen cylinder which means what? Maybe he used it up on Michael.
I can't see anything which would convince me that Michael either drank it or injected himself. But it's going to be up to a jury, not me.

( Interestingly, it wasn't until 15 June 2009 that murray officially notified his patients that 'because of a once in a lifetime opportunity, I had to make a most difficult decision to cease practice of medicine indefinitely (boy wasn't that true!)'...'in my absence I will continue to manage the practice as much as possible...from a distance.'
So how could he be 'assisting' Michael for 2 months, 6 nights a week yet he didn't stop his clinic work until 15 June. )

Your point #2, I had forgotten about that. I did remember that after his death the information about Michael calling Murray was disclosed. Again, as you say so much contradicting information. It could be that Murray told the detective that scenario about Michael calling, him and the detective repeated it. Murray forgot that his car would have been seen by the bodyguard. We have to remember that Murray, in creating his stories, did not have the foresight to make them cohesive. Hence nothing he says can be corroborated with the physical facts.
Sorry for double posting.

 

[jilliebean]

I commend you for having a theory that does not make up excuses for Conrad Murray. :clapping:Thank you.
I believe, during the trial, Conrad Murray is going to try and drag
Michael Jackson through the mud, as he tries to save his own
murdering sorry ass.

Your welcome. :wub: I try not to consider anything that Murray says. Not only because I think he is shady, but because he is the only one that was there and that makes me uncomfortable. He can say whatever he wants, and there really is no one that can prove otherwise. Hopefully with phone records and such they can at least prove that he is lying to cover himself and that his testimony about Michael can not be trusted.

One other thing from the testimony that I think I may have posted about before and then forgot about was that the one body guards said that Murray instructed him to hide stuff before calling 911. This really doesn't sit well with me. I would assume that as a body guard Michael's well being is your first priority, and I would also assume that you don't take orders from a doctor, especially when you walk into a situation like that. I would have called 911 immediately and informed the paramedics about the meds the doctor was trying to hide. Anyone else think this is odd?

 

[StacyJ]

very odd jilliebean. I agree Alvarez should've called cops right away especially since he thought MJ was dead

 

[Tipareth]

I think the main thing that the testimony made me feel confident about is that Michael died at home and was not alive in the ambulance or the hospital. So I think either Murray intentionally killed Michael and made it look like an accident and is making himself look stupid so that it will be believable that it was an accident, OR it was an accident and by the time he found Michael, he knew that Michael was gone and that he could not save him so he went about his business trying to cover his butt. Neither one of these theories proves to me whether Michael knew about the propofol or not. I'm still not sure if I believe Michael was "addicted" to this or would want to use it as a sleep aid, but I guess we may never know some answers.

Agree.

I do not think that Mike was addicted to Propofol. The line of thinking has been presented like this - Mike liked Propofol because the effects dissipate rapidly and also because one cannot get addicted to anesthesia. So he allegedly chose Propofol because of that, wanting to avoid addiction in the first place.
So if Propofol gets you addicted ( I do not believe it can get one addicted ) but lets say it gets you, then why not stay on benzos in the first place?

I think all this is invention, Murray invention. He presented like Mike wanted propofol to not get addicted, but after a while he got addicted anyway and him Murray wanted to 'wean him off Propofol' and put him on Benzos ( those are highly addictive ) So it does not make sense. it's CRAZYNESS. It's twisting everything, it's lying, conveniently twisting everything... :smilerolleyes:

Like the thing with the phone and watch... And everything.

That's why I cannot beleive at his point that Mike ASKED AND WANTED Propofol. If I beleive this I should believe that Murray got no phone even if he got one. :doh:

 

[CherubimII]

This is revealed information that upsets me the most:

The L.A. Coroner's report states that Michael Jackson's lungs
were "inflamed", which could indicate that Michael Jackson
had a respiratory infection that was not being treated,
even though he was being seen daily by a physician, Conrad Murray.
Yet, am I right, so far there is no mention of Murray
giving or prescribing antibiotics for Michael Jackson?

Clearing up an underlying infection with antibiotics, giving fluids, and allowing for rest time would have benefited Michael Jackson, immensely.

Why was Conrad Murray's goal really not to look after the health of Michael Jackson?

 

[triniti]

This is revealed information that upsets me the most:

The L.A. Coroner's report states that Michael Jackson's lungs
were "inflamed", which could indicate that Michael Jackson
had a respiratory infection that was not being treated,
even though he was being seen daily by a physician, Conrad Murray.
Yet, am I right, so far there is no mention of Murray
giving or prescribing antibiotics for Michael Jackson?

Clearing up an underlying infection with antibiotics, giving fluids, and allowing for rest time would have benefited Michael Jackson, immensely.

Why was Conrad Murray's goal really not to look after the health of Michael Jackson?

This is something unclear for me either. This looks like Murray didn't treat it at all. I don't remember any medicines for "inflamed" lungs mentioned in any of the reports. I can be wrong, though. I'm not an expert, but what about giving Propofol or Lorazepam to the person with ill lungs? :no:

 

[CherubimII]

Here's a little gift for you, Triniti, Smile.
Our Michael Jackson is truly an Angel.

 

[triniti]

Here's a little gift for you, Triniti, Smile.
Our Michael Jackson is truly an Angel.

Thank You Cherubim ...:huggy:

He is a real gift for all of us, I experience this everyday...

 

[elusive moonwalker]

This is something unclear for me either. This looks like Murray didn't treat it at all. I don't remember any medicines for "inflamed" lungs mentioned in any of the reports. I can be wrong, though. I'm not an expert, but what about giving Propofol or Lorazepam to the person with ill lungs? :no:

he had some anti inflamatory drugs prescribed to him by klien. whether this was releated to his lungs.there was also antibiotics prescribed by lee. and the oxygen tanks were prob releated to that. the AR report said it was something mj suffered from long term. it wasnt a one off thing. probably related to those attacks he had in the 80s that he mentioned in moonwalk. think plurisy (sp) was mentioned

 

[StacyJ]

So Murray knowing MJ had inflammed lungs and a history of pleurisy agreed to give him propofol? Did Murray know anything about MJ's medical history?

 

[CherubimII]

So Murray knowing MJ had inflammed lungs and a history of pleurisy agreed to give him propofol? Did Murray know anything about MJ's medical history?

Obviously, Conrad Murray's number one concern was not
the well-being of Michael Jackson. Other matters apparently got
in the way of that.

 

[Milka]

I haven't fallen off the face of the Earth, I just need a break from all this. I also don't have any theories, just the obvious, that what Murray did was very wrong on all kinds of levels, and that he tried to cover it up. And that the bodyguards at the hospital had suspicions, that's why they wouldn't let him get back into the house. Even THEY knew something was wrong pretty early on, even in this situation where they had just lost Michael and probably weren't "all there". That says a lot.

the AR report said it was something mj suffered from long term. it wasnt a one off thing.

That's been bothering me for a while now ... if he had some "lung problem", all the more reason not to give him Propofol (possibly on a daily basis). Because the risk is even higher in that case. Unless it's for surgery that has to be done with doctors being aware of the lung problem and in a hospital with the right equipment and paying even more attention due to the higher risk.

 

[triniti]

That's been bothering me for a while now ... if he had some "lung problem", all the more reason not to give him Propofol (possibly on a daily basis). Because the risk is even higher in that case. Unless it's for surgery that has to be done with doctors being aware of the lung problem and in a hospital with the right equipment and paying even more attention due to the higher risk.

Milka, I think this is real problem here..Doctors must be aware of every ilnesses of the patient before giving anesthesia.

From my own experiance:

I had two major surgeries in my lifetime, during which I received full anesthesia. Once, I was waiting two weeks before the surgery, while being under the drip, because the level of hormones gotten from the tests was wrong. The doctors adjusted my levels of hormones for two weeks to such the extent, the anesthesia wouldn't have caused danger to life. Even though the precautions, there were a few anesthetists during the surgery to reduce the risk.
The second time, I had an infection, but the surgery must have been carried out immediately. So I waited one day. Doctors was giving me strong antibiotics at that time to reduce infection. They had performed a lot of testing, before I was given anesthesia. It seems to me that this is standard.

I don't understand why, in the case of Michael, Murray didn't even take care of it. We have no information on whether any research was conducted before giving Propofol.

sorry for a bit o privacy, but the common sense told me, this should be another factor added to Murray's full recklessness and irresponsibility...

 

[Kingofpop4ever3000]

I haven't fallen off the face of the Earth, I just need a break from all this. I also don't have any theories, just the obvious, that what Murray did was very wrong on all kinds of levels, and that he tried to cover it up. And that the bodyguards at the hospital had suspicions, that's why they wouldn't let him get back into the house. Even THEY knew something was wrong pretty early on, even in this situation where they had just lost Michael and probably weren't "all there". That says a lot.

I agree. And this is why I get so angry about seeing Murray get treated with kit gloves like he had just fallen off of a cabbage cart when he came to work for Michael and didn't know that as a doctor, there are certain things that are simply not done. And that the things that are important to a proper level of care, are done without exception or excuse. Murray is a fully grown so-called professional and there is no reason why he should not be held to a high standard of duty regardless of who his patient is. These people who are constantly kissing his butt would not be doing it if this had happened to their loved one under his care. They would not want to hear him claiming that their loved one "begged" for something that wound up killing them and that he just HAD to give them what they wanted. Murray is a doctor and people expect a doctor to do what is best for his/her patient. So where is the logic in this ongoing thing of treating Murray like a five year-old? There is no excuse for what happened to Michael. None. Period.

 

[StacyJ]

I agree with you.. the fact that people are treating Murray as if he didn't know any better and that MJ 'got what he wanted' just makes me sick. Murray is a 20 year medical professional. He has never in his life I bet given anyone anesthesia at home in their bedroom. Why would he do that to MJ? why didn't he right off the back tell MJ that it's dangerous and risky and I don't feel safe doing it. That would've nipped that in the bud right then. Murray knew better and the fact that he has constantly lied throughout proves he knew better. He didn't even give the ER doctor important information as to what he administered. He knows better than that so folks giving him a pass is insane

 

[Autumn II]

I haven't fallen off the face of the Earth, I just need a break from all this. I also don't have any theories, just the obvious, that what Murray did was very wrong on all kinds of levels, and that he tried to cover it up. And that the bodyguards at the hospital had suspicions, that's why they wouldn't let him get back into the house. Even THEY knew something was wrong pretty early on, even in this situation where they had just lost Michael and probably weren't "all there". That says a lot.

That's been bothering me for a while now ... if he had some "lung problem", all the more reason not to give him Propofol (possibly on a daily basis). Because the risk is even higher in that case. Unless it's for surgery that has to be done with doctors being aware of the lung problem and in a hospital with the right equipment and paying even more attention due to the higher risk.

Hi there! Yup, not "fallen off the face of the earth."

The autopsy report is brutal to read, but yeah, he had a "lung problem" The report does not detail how severe it was, but said "inflammation and scarring." It's possible to give propofol anesthetic to someone with a "lung problem," but I'm sure extra precautions must be taken?

 

[StacyJ]

The bodyguards should've started getting suspicious way before MJ died.. I know they were with MJ a lot so didn't they know he was talking about being hot and cold? Didn't they see him coming out of Klein's office groggy and sedated looking? Couldn't they see that Murray was making MJ sick with his treatments?

Those bodyguards were absolutely worthless. They ultimately didn't protect MJ

 

[xthunderx2]

The bodyguards should've started getting suspicious way before MJ died.. I know they were with MJ a lot so didn't they know he was talking about being hot and cold? Didn't they see him coming out of Klein's office groggy and sedated looking? Couldn't they see that Murray was making MJ sick with his treatments?

Those bodyguards were absolutely worthless. They ultimately didn't protect MJ

I think ALOT of people in that house know more than they are telling...there is NOWAY in hell they didn't know something was going down with Michael. I think their pockets ment more to them than Michael. They were afraid that they would get fired....and e out of a job. Well guess what?? They are NOW out of a job because Michael died. I would of risked my job if I saw something not right in that house...who knows maybe if SOMEONE said something about Michael's health...he might still be here.

 

[rainny]

The bodyguards should've started getting suspicious way before MJ died.. I know they were with MJ a lot so didn't they know he was talking about being hot and cold?

Security was on the phone with Cherilyn Lee on Father's Day while

she could hear Michael frantically describing those symptoms.

 

[StacyJ]

Security was on the phone with Cherilyn Lee on Father's Day while

she could hear Michael frantically describing those symptoms.

was it security or his assistant Michael Amir? I guess it doesn't matter, they all should've taken MJ to the hospital right away. They had to know he wasn't look good at all. The fans could see how thin MJ was getting etc. And what about the nannies didn't they see something?

 

[Milka]

Hi there! Yup, not "fallen off the face of the earth."

Although ... those people still finding excuses for Murray must also think the Earth is flat.

The autopsy report is brutal to read, but yeah, he had a "lung problem" The report does not detail how severe it was, but said "inflammation and scarring." It's possible to give propofol anesthetic to someone with a "lung problem," but I'm sure extra precautions must be taken?

Yes, like triniti said. So either he didn't do the required tests or he did and then gave him Propofol anyway in a home setting with no equipment there. So he must either be the most stupid doctor - or man - to ever walk the face of the Earth (I'm a bit Earth oriented today), or he just had dollar signs in his eyes. Or it wasn't all that "involuntary".

As for the bodyguards and other people, yes, maybe they saw things, maybe not. But if they noticed something, they are no doctors, so maybe they just trusted Murray and thought he knows what he is doing.

 

[Petrarose]

he had some anti inflamatory drugs prescribed to him by klien. whether this was releated to his lungs.there was also antibiotics prescribed by lee. and the oxygen tanks were prob releated to that. the AR report said it was something mj suffered from long term. it wasnt a one off thing. probably related to those attacks he had in the 80s that he mentioned in moonwalk. think plurisy (sp) was mentioned

Yes that's true Elusive. I remember reading this information about the lungs in 09. They attributed it to an issue from his childhood, so this is a long term condition. There is no indication that Murray prescribed "regular" medication to Michael from the testimony.

 

[Laura.L.]

the AR report said it was something mj suffered from long term. it wasnt a one off thing. probably related to those attacks he had in the 80s that he mentioned in moonwalk. think plurisy (sp) was mentioned

From Moonwalk:

"The whole Wiz period was a time of stress and anxiety, even though I was enjoying myself. I remember July 4 of that year very well, because I was on the beach at my brother Jermaine's house, about half a block away along the waterfront. I was messing around in the surf, and all of a sudden I couldn't breathe. No air. Nothing. I asked myself what's wrong? I tried not to panic, but I ran back to the house to find Jermaine, who took me to the hospital.

It was wild. A blood vessel had burst in my lung. It has never reoccured, although I used to feel little pinches and jerks in there that were probably my imagination. I later learned that this condition was related to pleurisy. It was suggested by my doctor that I try to take things a little slower, but my schedule would not permit it. Hard work continued to be the name of the game."

Hard work continued to be the name of the game to the very end..

 

[jilliebean]

Ok i've tried to just simply read the responses but now im about ready to explode.

Before my rant i would like to say i don't appreciate certain people attacking ME (not my theories), this is a theories thread, if you don't like what im offering, then don't read my responses, simple.

It's plain obvious by my posts that im no medical expert (thankyou btw to those who corrected me without throwing in a personal insult) so i'm going to look at everything else i can understand and/or relate to.

Firstly, i have chronic insomnia, it's 1:36 in the morning where i am and i am still wide awake, if i try to sleep, i get restless and don't end up sleeping, i know how hard it was for Michael to sleep, but i don't know how to relate to the physical work and his age, that would have made it worse.

Now if you love Michael, there is no point in defending denial or ignorance, there is NO evidence to suggest that drugs like Propofol, Valium and other medications like that would cause any physical signs after long or short term use, so saying "the autopsy report didn't support it" doesn't count. Michael Jackson was addicted to prescription medication, and the fact is he refused help from his friends and family, which only aggravated the problem.

With that in mind i think Dr Murray should be punished for what he did, but he should not be over punished, IM is a sufficient enough charge, if it had been anyone else this argument wouldn't be taking place, so that's where we should all be thinking from.

However i stand by the theories i presented, i can't be bothered adjusting them because of other peoples corrections, but i will soon enough.

Why do you think this? I've wondered if Michael was addicted to pain medication, because I know he was in the past ( what was it around '93?), but I really don't think that whether Michael was OR wasn't addicted to pain meds has anything to do with this case. I think if you or the media or the lawyers or whoever want it to be relevant then you need proof and I think when people are saying that "the autopsy report doesn't support it" they are referring to long term drug use. That is the best thing we have (in terms of the truth about the subject) and an autopsy doesn't lie.

 

[CherubimII]

Michael Jackson had a condition called insomnia.
Conrad Murray knew that and claimed he could offer
medically approved treatments for Michael's insomnia.
Conrad Murray did the opposite of this, he used unapproved
medical treatments, and Michael Jackson died.

 

[jilliebean]

Michael Jackson had a condition called insomnia.
Conrad Murray knew that and claimed he could offer
medically approved treatments for Michael's insomnia.
Conrad Murray did the opposite of this, he used unapproved
medical treatments, and Michael Jackson died.

I agree.This is a good way to simplify the situation

 

[cinzia]

Why do you think this? I've wondered if Michael was addicted to pain medication, because I know he was in the past ( what was it around '93?), but I really don't think that whether Michael was OR wasn't addicted to pain meds has anything to do with this case. I think if you or the media or the lawyers or whoever want it to be relevant then you need proof and I think when people are saying that "the autopsy report doesn't support it" they are referring to long term drug use. That is the best thing we have (in terms of the truth about the subject) and an autopsy doesn't lie.

I so agree with this. In fact, The prescriptions found in his room after his death and the pills left in the bottles reveal that he was basically non compliant in taking them.