Latest on MJJC

Hot topic What unreleased demos and remixes do you think will be on Thriller 40 Disc 2?

Status
Not open for further replies.
ChanceToDance said:
Where did people get the song from anyways? I've looked at every corner of the internet and I couldn't find anything about MJ's version.
Click to expand...
The song is listed or mentioned tentatively on a few websites. But that, of course, guarantees nothing. Since it carries the full Rod Temperton DNA it's not hard to imagine that the song could once have been suggested to Jackson.
lostmediawiki.com

Michael Jackson (partially found unpublished songs from American musician; 1974-2009) - The Lost Media Wiki

lostmediawiki.com lostmediawiki.com
en.wikipedia.org

List of unreleased songs recorded by Michael Jackson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Admor Funky Pages said:
The song is listed or mentioned tentatively on a few websites. But that, of course, guarantees nothing. Since it carries the full Rod Temperton DNA it's not hard to imagine that the song could once have been suggested to Jackson.
lostmediawiki.com

Michael Jackson (partially found unpublished songs from American musician; 1974-2009) - The Lost Media Wiki

lostmediawiki.com lostmediawiki.com
en.wikipedia.org

List of unreleased songs recorded by Michael Jackson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...
The wikias aren't reliable, although there's some truths there it also has incorrect info.
 
IMWhizzle said:
Luckily I don’t have to buy this album, not worth it in my opinion. I’ll stream it with Apple Music. The estate is just trying to officially release all things that were leaked before on the internet. What an awful project. The estate is more focused on MJ pre Dangerous.

The only exciting is the behind the mask demo.
Click to expand...
I've been saying that over and over. Wait for people calling you even unethical for not being excited about the release of already leaked songs. 🙃
 
IMWhizzle said:
Luckily I don’t have to buy this album, not worth it in my opinion. I’ll stream it with Apple Music. The estate is just trying to officially release all things that were leaked before on the internet. What an awful project. The estate is more focused on MJ pre Dangerous.

The only exciting is the behind the mask demo.
Click to expand...

Why is it bad that leaked songs are getting an official release? You have to remember although songs are leaked they are still previously unreleased songs. The hardcore fan base really needs to look at the big picture and change their thinking. Because you heard some of these songs before doesn’t mean your neighbour has, or the person down the street has. The fact these songs are getting officially released, the way they were originally recorded, is a good thing.
 
Even if the Estate announces that there are zero tracks left for release then people will still find ways to complain. A day without complaining isn’t a good day 😄
 
farlnd said:
Why is it bad that leaked songs are getting an official release? You have to remember although songs are leaked they are still previously unreleased songs. The hardcore fan base really needs to look at the big picture and change their thinking. Because you heard some of these songs before doesn’t mean your neighbour has, or the person down the street has. The fact these songs are getting officially released, the way they were originally recorded, is a good thing.
Click to expand...
Why is it not allowed to feel frustrated as a customer? You guys act like being a fan means to be happy with every s*** the Estate might put out. I have the right to expect quality over their releases and not blindly support them. I don't care if my neighbor has ever listened to Caroussel. But it's easily found over the internet and it occupies the place of something way more interesting in a commemorative release. Save the leaked demos for a compilation or whatever.
 
Ekans said:
Why is it not allowed to feel frustrated as a customer? You guys act like being a fan means to be happy with every s*** the Estate might put out. I have the right to expect quality over their releases and not blindly support them. I don't care if my neighbor has ever listened to Caroussel. But it's easily found over the internet and it occupies the place of something way more interesting in a commemorative release. Save the leaked demos for a compilation or whatever.
Click to expand...
I don’t think anyone is saying you can’t be disappointed, but disappointment over to the choice to release leaked material is just nonsensical. We’d all love unheard tracks, but just because you chose to listen to these songs prematurely doesn’t invalidate them from a release.

Leaked or unleaked, Thriller era demos should be used on an anniversary reissue, not a compilation (which ultimately wouldn’t make a difference anyways, since the complaint of “why didn’t you use something totally unheard instead?” will be used regardless of the project).
 
AlwaysThere said:
We’d all love unheard tracks, but just because you chose to listen to these songs prematurely doesn’t invalidate them from a release.
Click to expand...
It's not my fault that the songs leaked. If the Estate did a good fan service I wouldn't be looking for leaks in the first place. It would be hypocritical of you to say that you've never listened to a leak or never held it as a personal favorite even for a moment. The fans who listen to leaks shouldn't be blamed for their disappointment as it is perfectly understandable.
 
Ekans said:
It's not my fault that the songs leaked. If the Estate did a good fan service I wouldn't be looking for leaks in the first place. It would be hypocritical of you to say that you've never listened to a leak or never held it as a personal favorite even for a moment. The fans who listen to leaks shouldn't be blamed for their disappointment as it is perfectly understandable.
Click to expand...
I was massively disappointed when Xscape wound up being 80% leaks, but I quickly realized that the vault is limited and just because I stupidly decided to listen to them doesn’t invalidate their worth.

I never said it’s your fault songs leaked. But there’s a whole world out there, and just because 5% of them decided to listen to these tracks illegally doesn’t mean suddenly they shouldn’t come out. It’s bigger than you or any one of us.
 
AlwaysThere said:
I don’t think anyone is saying you can’t be disappointed, but disappointment over to the choice to release leaked material is just nonsensical. We’d all love unheard tracks, but just because you chose to listen to these songs prematurely doesn’t invalidate them from a release.

Leaked or unleaked, Thriller era demos should be used on an anniversary reissue, not a compilation (which ultimately wouldn’t make a difference anyways, since the complaint of “why didn’t you use something totally unheard instead?” will be used regardless of the project).
Click to expand...
The problem is that most of us are curious about unheard stuff from the Dangerous sessions onwards. Instead the estate is milking the fan base out by justifying another release of an album that was re-released countless times. For some reason they always succeed by framing the fan base as if this project is all new and special, it isn’t.

Unreleased post dangerous songs, concert material, 4K release of MJ’s short films, that’s what most of us want. Michael was always about being cutting edge and being innovative. The estate is just trying to release this album in with the sole purpose of reminding the mainstream public again that MJ made Thriller, succes guaranteed. I think it will flop, big time.

Now the Prince and other estates of icons for example, they know what their fans want. If only…
 
thiron said:
If 10bonus songs, which many have never been released, are awful, then how do you call Thriller25 or the 2001 special editions MJ himself released?
Click to expand...
Big mistake imho. All the fans were already tired of the re-releases. We've always wanted new stuff. Since the 80s I've lost count of how many Billie Jean remixes, covers, mash-ups, megamixes I've heard. I understand that MJ wanted to get back with popularity and so on that's why he brought in Will I Am into that project, but honestly I'd prefer Mike did his own stuff even if it had meant less popularity.
 
At the level of a major record company like Sony-BMG it's important to find a balance between guaranteed worldwide revenues and an artistically attractive product. Leaked demos [of potential hits back in time!] that have been around for many years are a god's gift for marketing people. That buzz has created itself organically over the years. Many of the demo tracks that will figure on the bonus disc are all recordings in an advanced stage of pre-production. We can hardly speak of song ideas or rudimentary material still in an early laboratory stage here. They "obviously" lack some of Quincy Jones' final arrangement magic but the production is solidly rooted already. I wonder how many more recordings of this calibre and production maturity can be found in the Thriller vaults? Unlike Prince, Michael Jackson wasn't an all round musician who could almost create a finished track in a few days.
 
Last edited:
The absolute backflips of logic folk do on here to defend the output of this Estate.

A 34 track release that, so far, offers 4 unreleased tracks. You can dress that up any way you like, but the rest have been released - it's as simple as that. That is not a good ratio.

You don't have to search online for two seconds to trip over dozens upon dozens of examples of what other catalogue artists and estates are doing better when it comes to unreleased material on anniversary/special edition albums. Or indeed, as has been argued, a complete exhaustive collection of existing material of an album/era - we already know Thriller 40 can't fulfil that criteria. The Estate elected not to go that route.

The Estate constantly set expectations wrongly in their communications. We were promised pop up events and global activations and to date absolutely nothing has materialised. They suggested they were putting the tracks that were "previously in limited release" on the digital only album but neglected to say they would do the same with the physical album as well. They didn't explicitly say CD2 will be all unreleased material but when you set the criteria of the digital album it's natural for people to make inferences, notwithstanding that we know of enough unreleased material to fill that second disc, easily. The fact is the Estate chose not to include them, thus offering better value to fans, or they forgot those tracks even existed. And then that doesn't even touch on the fact that various online outlets listed each track on disc 2 as "previously unreleased" in the absence of a track title. I wonder where they got that impression!

I'm not prepared to write this project off just yet but it is imperative that the next 3 tracks announced are unreleased otherwise it's a no from me unfortunately. The Estate have the finances, time, talent and raw materials to produce an infinitely better product than it looks, 20 or so days out, they intend to.

Stoked for those remastered videos though. Ironically I'd drop 3 figures for a bluray physical release no questions asked. But they're probably just gonna give them away for free, compressed, on YouTube. Couldn't write it!
 
I genuinely like the look of disc 2 I don’t own any of those tracks + it helps that I love all those songs dearly. I hate having to go on youtube to hear those songs. I would be disappointed if nite line and hot street are not part of it. I have been waiting for decades to have them on an album.
 
Last edited:
Keep in mind that I'm not dismissing anyone's concerns with this post.

But funnily enough, I peeked at the Prince subreddit a while ago out of sheer curiosity (I'm not a Prince "fan" in the strict sense of the word, although I do respect him as an artist) and I noticed a lot of people were complaining about his estate. This surprised me somewhat given the fact that most people in Michael Jackson fan spaces seem to regard the Prince estate positively, generally speaking.

Note that I myself have plenty of issues with Michael's estate (the Cascio tracks being the most obvious one) but saying "b-but how about this estate and that estate?" isn't exactly a good measuring point, because the grass seems to always be greener on the other side. Meanwhile the fans themselves have a different opinion.

Again I'm not dismissing anyone's concerns, I'm just saying that comparing different estates and their outputs isn't going to work. We should judge Michael's estate by itself, in my opinion.

That's really all I have to say with regards to this thread; for me, whatever songs we're getting I'm fine with, since 1) I don't listen to leaked tracks and didn't even know half of these existed, and 2) I'm mostly invested in Michael's legacy as an artist, so I haven't been paying super close attention to this release (I'm aware this might sound shocking to many). Still gonna stream the previously unreleased tracks, of course.
 
People here seem to be oblivious to it, but most Prince fans have serious complaints about how his estate turns the blind eye to his post-80s stuff. All of his 80s hit albums have been reissued in those crazy boxsets and stuff, but nothing else. It's literally the same around here with people complaining the Estate doesn't seem to care about Dangerous and onwards.
The grass is always greener on the other side.
 
IMWhizzle said:
Now the Prince and other estates of icons for example, they know what their fans want. If only…
Click to expand...
I am a Prince fan, so I do frequently visit prince.org. His fans there are always complaining about his estate. But Michael fans are always saying that Prince fans are happy with his estate, which obviously isn't true.

You have every right to complain about MJ's estate, but do so without talking about how fans of other deceased artists are happy with their respective estates, when it is clearly nonsense.
 
I’ve peeked into various George Michael, Beatles, and Prince forums and articles, and the dissatisfaction among their fans is far more significant than anyone here might believe. They’re getting full, multiple disc box sets and people are still complaining about the decision to focus on this album, or the omission of that song, or incorrect classification and organization (apparently the Purple Rain box set includes multiple songs that should not be aligned with that album).

As @DangerousGal91, @Nite Line, @MJbr2, (and others) have said, the concept that all other estates are absolutely knocking it out of the park is just wildly false, because the conversations from within the fan community are mixed at best.

Obviously this doesn’t therefore mean the estate is doing an excellent job, but let’s stop saying, “What about them?” as a litmus test for anything.
 
AlwaysThere said:
I’ve peeked into various George Michael, Beatles, and Prince forums and articles, and the dissatisfaction among their fans is far more significant than anyone here might believe. They’re getting full, multiple disc box sets and people are still complaining about the decision to focus on this album, or the omission of that song, or incorrect classification and organization (apparently the Purple Rain box set includes multiple songs that should not be aligned with that album).

As @DangerousGal91, @Nite Line, @MJbr2, (and others) have said, the concept that all other estates are absolutely knocking it out of the park is just wildly false, because the conversations from within the fan community are mixed at best.

Obviously this doesn’t therefore mean the estate is doing an excellent job, but let’s stop saying, “What about them?” as a litmus test for anything.
Click to expand...
Even some legacy artists that are still alive don't seem to care for the hardcore fanbase. As a Queen fan myself, I can say from experience that QPL (Queen Productions LTD) is also focused on the mainstream public, especially after the movie, and pretend to care about their hardcore fans. While they put out new stuff every now and then, production-wise it's a nightmare: imagine doing pitch-correction on the vocals of every unreleased track by the man who's often considered the greatest vocalist ever. I could go on and on about it, but that's not the point.

What I mean is that I have so many complaints about Branca and his infinite f**k-ups since '09, but it doesn't mean that all the other artists, either alive or their estates, are doing it 100% correctly. They are not. They're just as clueless as the MJ Estate is.
 
Eh, I have a real problem with this "let's not compare the MJ Estate to anything else going on" attitude. Just seems a way to once again muffle any criticisms that could be had and act like they're doing better than they actually are. They don't exist in a bubble as much as some seem to think they do.
 
SmoothGangsta said:
Eh, I have a real problem with this "let's not compare the MJ Estate to anything else going on" attitude. Just seems a way to once again muffle any criticisms that could be had and act like they're doing better than they actually are. They don't exist in a bubble as much as some seem to think they do.
Click to expand...
I agree, there must be criticism. However, comparisons based on double standards is tough.
Okay, they're doing wrong on a lot of stuff, but that doesn't mean the others are always right.
There are right doings and stupid f**k-ups from all sides.
 
SmoothGangsta said:
Eh, I have a real problem with this "let's not compare the MJ Estate to anything else going on" attitude. Just seems a way to once again muffle any criticisms that could be had and act like they're doing better than they actually are. They don't exist in a bubble as much as some seem to think they do.
Click to expand...
It seems you're misunderstanding me a bit. I'm not dismissing anyone's concerns, in fact I think a lot of them are valid. I have plenty of criticisms towards the estate myself! I could list many; I've only listed one in my post, but I have much more. It's just that I think constant comparisons aren't productive, exactly because those other estates are also being criticized a lot. And I'm not dismissing any of that either (frankly I know little of what the Prince estate is up to, just that Prince fans aren't entirely happy either).
 
MJbr2 said:
I agree, there must be criticism. However, comparisons based on double standards is tough.
Okay, they're doing wrong on a lot of stuff, but that doesn't mean the others are always right.
There are right doings and stupid f**k-ups from all sides.
Click to expand...

Well obviously other estate's get stuff wrong as well, I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise tbh. I just think that some people are now going "see! some fans aren't happy with what other estates do" so as to dismiss any actual valid comparisons that could be made between how they operate compared to the MJ estate and trying to tell people not to think about it.

Obviously some comparisons are outlandish, especially when it comes to the Prince estate, but there are many basic things the MJ estate does wrong that most others get right and I think it's fine to hold them to that when considering what they're doing and how they're doing it.
 
Last edited:
SmoothGangsta said:
Well obviously other estate's get stuff wrong as well, I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise tbh. I just think that some people are now going "see! some fans aren't happy with what other estates do" so as to dismiss any actual valid comparisons that could be made between how they operate compared to the MJ estate and trying to tell people not to think about it.

Obviously some comparisons are outlandish, especially when it comes to the Prince estate, but there are many basic things the MJ estate does wrong that most others get right and I think it's fine to hold them to that when considering what they're doing and how they're doing it.
Click to expand...
I get what you mean. I didn't mention the other estate's mistakes to dismiss valid complaints from us, not in the slightest.
Let's be real though, some people here really act like the Estate is always wrong and the others are always right. These are the folks I'm addressing.

Wanna trash the Estate for the basic stuff they still miss and need to be called out on? Count me in!
 
hey guys, we are talking about thriller 40, disc 2 as you can see on the subject. prince’s estate is really off topic.
 
ChrisC said:
The absolute backflips of logic folk do on here to defend the output of this Estate.

A 34 track release that, so far, offers 4 unreleased tracks. You can dress that up any way you like, but the rest have been released - it's as simple as that. That is not a good ratio.

You don't have to search online for two seconds to trip over dozens upon dozens of examples of what other catalogue artists and estates are doing better when it comes to unreleased material on anniversary/special edition albums. Or indeed, as has been argued, a complete exhaustive collection of existing material of an album/era - we already know Thriller 40 can't fulfil that criteria. The Estate elected not to go that route.

The Estate constantly set expectations wrongly in their communications. We were promised pop up events and global activations and to date absolutely nothing has materialised. They suggested they were putting the tracks that were "previously in limited release" on the digital only album but neglected to say they would do the same with the physical album as well. They didn't explicitly say CD2 will be all unreleased material but when you set the criteria of the digital album it's natural for people to make inferences, notwithstanding that we know of enough unreleased material to fill that second disc, easily. The fact is the Estate chose not to include them, thus offering better value to fans, or they forgot those tracks even existed. And then that doesn't even touch on the fact that various online outlets listed each track on disc 2 as "previously unreleased" in the absence of a track title. I wonder where they got that impression!

I'm not prepared to write this project off just yet but it is imperative that the next 3 tracks announced are unreleased otherwise it's a no from me unfortunately. The Estate have the finances, time, talent and raw materials to produce an infinitely better product than it looks, 20 or so days out, they intend to.

Stoked for those remastered videos though. Ironically I'd drop 3 figures for a bluray physical release no questions asked. But they're probably just gonna give them away for free, compressed, on YouTube. Couldn't write it!
Click to expand...
Whilst I agree that an exhaustive, complete examination of the era’s material is long overdue, something tells me that the 50th anniversary would be the wiser time. And even then, for such a compilation to be truly comprehensive, it would have to contain all of the leaked and previously released material, which countless users have already found fault with on Thriller 40. I’m on your side completely, but the selection of material is very much “damned if you do, damned if you don’t,” especially for an era that, by all accounts, has very little in the way of unheard and usable material.

The only reissues that I could objectively call worth the discs they’re printed on are those from the Prince estate. Everything else, from George Michael to Mariah Carey to the Beatles to Usher, are varying shades of underwhelming. Of course, this isn’t to then say, “See? The estate is doing great!” But the insistence that other groups, artists, and estates are all hitting home runs woefully ignores reality.

As for the contents of the second disc, every officially-sanctioned press release has emphasized that the material would consist of “bonus rarities and demos.” Sure, the phrasing of “tracks in limited release” was a bit questionable, but calling that intentionally misleading is certainly a stretch. The digital release seems focused on alternate cuts and remixes, whereas disc two is outtakes and non-album cuts (some of which are also in limited release, but hence qualify as “rarities”). I just think it’s ridiculous to pin blame on the estate for the public assigning everything on disc two as being “previously unreleased” when at no point did anyone involved say as much. Why should we pander to people who can’t/won’t properly read a press release…?

Again, I’m not trying to dismiss general disinterest in the project or diminish criticism towards it. But, with all due respect, these angles don’t hold much water in my opinion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top